This post is a continuation of an ongoing discussion that started in my Questions or Suggestions page between myself and commenter Nathan. Rather than fill up that page’s comments with a continuous discussion, I have decided to move it over here. That page is best used for single comments and responses, rather than replies in depth. As for this post, besides using it as a medium to answer Nathan’s questions, I think it could also serve as an excellent place to ask and answer ongoing questions about men/masculinity and women/femininity. I will recreate the conversation here to provide context for everyone, so that my next set of responses will make sense. I invite anyone with their own answers, or deeper ones, to contribute their thoughts in the comments. Also, if you have questions along a similar vein, feel free to add them in the comments as well.
Nathan first asked:
How much would you agree that women simply/merely want a man (and thus are attracted to men) who “tries/shows effort at” having a good job vs. a man who “is obsesively driven to excel at/improve” his job/career income/status. Will they commonly accept/show grace towards men who “at least show effort” or will they mostly be merciless and have zero acceptance/graceless towards men who don’t have ideal jobs/career and appear outwardly like they are very driven/successful?
Where is this line of acceptability/willingness to show grace towards men (who outwardly appear “attractive enough” to them)?
My suspicion/belief is that women are result oriented, not process oriented. They don’t care how hard you work so much as you get results. They don’t care if a man tries to get a good job, they care if he has a good job. Although in the present environment a man’s job means very little to his attractiveness unless it is a high status one. While I think that they like a “driven man”, It is as much because they see it as a sign of future potential as anything.
I’m afraid I don’t quite get your last sentence, could you explain it a bit?
Nathan then continued:
Donal, thanks for answering my question. My intention for the last line was this: What is the common minimum threshold that women expect men to be or to accomplish before they begin to see a man as attractive? My understanding is that women only show forgiveness, grace, and mercy to men that they are already attracted to, and that any men below this minimum threshold of attractiveness don’t and will not ever receive similar forgiveness, grace, and mercy. What are your thoughts on this?
What more can you tell me about how to be “driven” and how/why that is seen as attractive to women?
My response to him:
I don’t think that you can really quantify that minimum threshold. It will vary from woman to woman. However, you can still be attractive to women even though you haven’t accomplished anything of note. That is what Bad Boys do, after all. Accomplishments (in this context) probably would fall under the Status attribute of LAMPS. You can get around having them by boosting your other attributes.
My understanding is that women only show forgiveness, grace, and mercy to men that they are already attracted to,
I’m not really convinced about this, to be honest. I think that women can be raised to show those attribute to all men. They just aren’t these days as a general rule. In fact, most modern women in the West are feral or one step above it. So unless you find a real gem of a woman, don’t expect much from her unless she is attracted to you.
How to be driven? I’m not sure that’s something that I, or anyone else, can teach. Its something you have to acquire for yourself. What advice I can give is that you need to find a purpose, a cause, a mission, other than women, to dedicate your life towards. Then, push yourself towards it and don’t let other things, especially women, distract you. Be relentless and unwavering. Women are attracted to this “drive” because it is one of the most potent expressions of Masculine Power. Women are drawn to conquerors, and that is what a driven man is.
Nathan’s next set of questions:
I was always categorizing “driven” into the money section as “easily identifiable, potentially high-income earner,” and not the Power section as “easily identifiable, masculine power demonstrator.”
I also struggle with the whole dynamic of “you must be passionate about your job and simultaneously have a high-status, high-income job,” which to me sounds really convenient if my passions were law or medicine, but what I’m passionate about is very expensive and doesn’t always pay well, and doing something else can quickly become a slow, mind-numbing death which kills all passion.
Maybe you could discuss this in a post at some point.
At present, my only solution is to either be poor and passionate or work a non-passionate job and treat my real passion as a part-time hobby or ministry on the side.
Also, I wonder if God calls some men to lucrative jobs that draw women and other men to low-earning jobs that often repel women. How do men make sense of that when they want to follow God’s direction and hopefully become married one day.
My final set of responses:
Money is fairly abstract and objective, something like Driven just doesn’t fit well there.
I don’t think it is necessary to be passionate about your job and have it be high status. The latter is more important than the former.
Remember, your job isn’t really that important for attracting women, unless you have a really high status one. Lawyer and doctor don’t really cut it there like they used to. Thanks to feminism, it takes a lot more to get a woman’s attention in that way.
As long as you can support a family, then don’t worry about your job as much. Instead, improve yourself in other areas. Ultimately, that will count a lot more. Also, Status doesn’t have to be purely job related. You can gain it from community involvement, church involvement, etc.
And yes, some men just have it easier when it comes to drawing in women. It isn’t simply about jobs, but in every facet of life. Life isn’t fair, so learn to accept it (and yes, I know how hard that is) and move on. Improve yourself in other areas and you can still come out on top.
This brings us to Nathan’s final set of questions, which I hadn’t answered yet:
In order for good Christian men to learn game or how to become more like a “reformed bad boy,” do they need to treat women more as a “meh” tag-along accessory to their life and daily plans? As in, “I’m going to fulfill my will and plans independently, no matter what you think, and I honestly don’t care what you think, and you’re welcome to tag-along with me, but I’m not interested in hearing any negative talk or complaining out of you. If you have a problem with that, then you can take a hike! (But then also make sure to fulfill your plans and push yourself to new challenges, and keep all of your emotions like fears and hurts to yourself)”
And any other ideas you might add!
I’m frustrated that the “helpmeet” women seem more like burdens than helpers. Maybe that changes if we do all the stuff above?
Do you have any posts about self-respect and self-worth as a Man/Man of God, and perhaps also where those overlap and/or contradict one another?
Now, to respond to Nathan’s latest set of questions:
I’m not sure that treating women like an accessory, especially a “meh” type of accessory, is the right move to make. A quality Christian woman, one who would make a good wife, would likely find that view of her worth as offensive. And for good reason, because a wife is man’s greatest possession. A better approach I think is to internalize the Captain/First Officer mindset. This helps keep women off of a pedestal, which is critical. Also, it sets up the right frame of reference in your mind. A good XO is a great asset to have in your life, but not absolutely necessary. Instead, you have in your mind the idea that “I’m in charge of this household and of the mission that God appointed me to. You can join me in the mission if you like, but only if you are willing to follow orders (and without grumbling), to be responsible for what I assign you, to manage the household while I’m gone and otherwise add value to my life/contribute to the mission. If not, then the job isn’t for you.”
As for “helpmeet” women, I don’t think being any more “Alpha” will make as much of a difference as you think. It really is up to the woman in question to determine if she can/will be an able helpmeet or not. If you are more attractive, she might grumble less and oppose you less, but that doesn’t mean she will be less of a burden and more of a help. That’s all on her and her willingness to live up to her duties to the Lord and to her husband.