Discerning the Mindkiller

Sunshine Mary’s recent post Discerning Well triggered something of a firestorm in the comment section. The comments quickly developed into  a verbal war of sorts, with men and women mostly taking opposite sides. Overall, the vast majority of the female commenters found the story contained therein to be beautiful and uplifting. On the other hand, most of the male commenters took a different view and considered it something of a tragedy. This reaction surprised the blogmistress, and I think most of the commenters too.

Now it happened that I was one of the male commenters who became involved in that post and the furious debate that broke out (Ok, I was actually sort of the instigator of the debate). As time passed and the debate continued, I eventually bowed out. This post is my attempt to try and explain to my female readers (many of whom read Sunshine Mary’s blog) why it was that her post touched a nerve in so many men. I’m writing it because men and women think very, very differently, and it is easy for us to misunderstand one another. Hopefully I can clear up some of the confusion. While I can’t say that it will put women at ease, I at least hope that it will provide some measure of understanding.

The female commenters were caught up in the joy and happiness of the messages, and so focused on that. Those are natural, understandable emotions. Indeed, appropriate ones for a new marriage. But for the men, something else was at play, something more potent, something more primal:

Fear.

I didn’t figure this out at first. For a while I thought I was being rational in my responses. But eventually I came to realize that emotion was driving me, not reason. So I stepped back to catch my breath and ended up never jumping back in. Eventually, after much discernment, I came to understand how fear was driving my reactions.  This fear wasn’t obvious because most of it was sub-conscious, well below the surface of most of my awareness. But it was still present and affecting me. Now, this fear wasn’t that of outright terror.  No, it was a subtle kind that gnawed at the back of my mind. I could feel the effects, but not really the presence. And I would venture much the same was happening with most of the other men as well.

So what were the sources of this fear? A few, in no particular order include:

– Fear of never finding a wife

– Fear that I might find a wife but it would take me decades

– Fear of living in a marriage marketplace where women have all the power

– Fear that the only women interested in marrying me would be unacceptable to me

– Fear of becoming so full of despair and bereft of hope that I would take any woman who expressed any interest in me

– Fear of never having children of my own

Those are just a few of the fears that I can think of off the top of my head.

Before I go further, it is important, vital even, for women to understand that men have certain biological imperatives programmed into them. And many of these imperatives are bound deeply into our sub-conscious, such that they affect us although we don’t realize it. This is largely what was at play here. Again, set aside whether these fears are rational or not. When the sub-conscious is involved, reason is a rarity. I was doing a lot of projecting.

Lets start with the scenario that if I wanted to marry I would have to settle for a post-Wall woman in her forties. This touches on a fear of not fulfilling one of those core biological imperatives, that of having children. When it comes to procreation, men have two different strategies that are on something of a sliding scale. On one end you have sexual variety, otherwise known as sleeping with as many women as possible. This strategy emphasizes numbers over quality, in terms of possible children. The other end is what I call paternity, where a man focuses on just a few children born of a single mother that he heavily invests in. This is quality over quantity. In marrying such a woman, I would probably be dooming myself to biological death; it would be a step that would all but guarantee that I never have kids and never pass my genes on. Now, because of my faith, I have already repudiated sexual variety as a strategy, thereby forcing myself to the far end of paternity. As a result, I have (consciously and unconsciously) become very much invested in that strategy, it has become a core part of my sense of identity. Thus, marrying a woman who almost certainly can’t have children thereby threatens me at a very deep level. Naturally enough, fear will result.

While I could write in depth about all of these fears, it isn’t necessary and so will limit myself to that one example for now. [I suppose if there is a call for it I could continue my analysis via updates or in the comments.]

Understand ladies that we men have our fears too. Oftentimes they will be different from yours, or we will express them in different ways. What you were seeing in that post were deep-seated male fears manifesting themselves. All of us, men and women alike, will be affected by fears and anxieties that lurk below the surface from time to time. One thing I noted is that pretty much all of the women who posted in that thread were married, many with children. Women have different imperatives than men and some would have been touched by that post as well. But women might feel those imperatives threatened in different ways. Hence, the disparity in reaction. I am curious what reaction unmarried women, and women without children, would have had to that post.

As for myself, once I realized what I was experiencing I sought for a way to calm my fears and let go of my anxieties. I kept in mind the words of our Savior:

“Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Let the day’s own trouble be sufficient for the day.

Towards that end I stepped away from my computer, opened my Bible and read my go-to book, the Book of Psalms:

In thee, O Lord, do I seek refuge;
let me never be put to shame;
in thy righteousness deliver me!
Incline thy ear to me,
rescue me speedily!
Be thou a rock of refuge for me,
a strong fortress to save me!

Yea, thou art my rock and my fortress;
for thy name’s sake lead me and guide me,
take me out of the net which is hidden for me,
for thou art my refuge.
Into thy hand I commit my spirit;
thou hast redeemed me, O Lord, faithful God.

Thou hatest those who pay regard to vain idols;
but I trust in the Lord.
I will rejoice and be glad for thy steadfast love,
because thou hast seen my affliction,
thou hast taken heed of my adversities,
and hast not delivered me into the hand of the enemy;
thou hast set my feet in a broad place.

Be gracious to me, O Lord, for I am in distress;
my eye is wasted from grief,
my soul and my body also.
10 For my life is spent with sorrow,
and my years with sighing;
my strength fails because of my misery,
and my bones waste away.

11 I am the scorn of all my adversaries,
a horror to my neighbors,
an object of dread to my acquaintances;
those who see me in the street flee from me.
12 I have passed out of mind like one who is dead;
I have become like a broken vessel.
13 Yea, I hear the whispering of many—
terror on every side!—
as they scheme together against me,
as they plot to take my life.

14 But I trust in thee, O Lord,
I say, “Thou art my God.”
15 My times are in thy hand;
deliver me from the hand of my enemies and persecutors!
16 Let thy face shine on thy servant;
save me in thy steadfast love!
17 Let me not be put to shame, O Lord,
for I call on thee;
let the wicked be put to shame,
let them go dumbfounded to Sheol.
18 Let the lying lips be dumb,
which speak insolently against the righteous
in pride and contempt.

19 O how abundant is thy goodness,
which thou hast laid up for those who fear thee,
and wrought for those who take refuge in thee,
in the sight of the sons of men!
20 In the covert of thy presence thou hidest them
from the plots of men;
thou holdest them safe under thy shelter
from the strife of tongues.

21 Blessed be the Lord,
for he has wondrously shown his steadfast love to me
when I was beset as in a besieged city.
22 I had said in my alarm,
“I am driven far from thy sight.”
But thou didst hear my supplications,
when I cried to thee for help.

23 Love the Lord, all you his saints!
The Lord preserves the faithful,
but abundantly requites him who acts haughtily.
24 Be strong, and let your heart take courage,
all you who wait for the Lord!

(Psalm 31)

[For a secular alternative, and to understand the meaning of this post’s name, see here.]

Advertisements

95 Comments

Filed under Marriage, Men, Red Pill, Women

95 responses to “Discerning the Mindkiller

  1. Godly women don’t have to say no

    Many of the ones I was acquainted with had no problem in saying no to the average church guy. Somehow the church leaders conclude the men aren’t good enough, or trying enough, and slam them for being slackers.

    the pastors hear nothing from the men,

    The pastors I knew heard plenty from the men. They just didn’t believe them. As situational alphas, they did not believe the testimony of men, and thought the men must not have been trying hard enough.

    The third school of thought knows the problem is mainly the women – delaying marriage, having premarital and extramarital sex, extreme-insane hypergamy, et al.

    This was always the smallest group. Since women were idolised as spiritually superior,any bad behaviour was obviously the fault of some man. I never made the point of moral agency though.Anything she did she must have been forced into.

    This was used to justify frivorce, fornication and single motherhood.

    Since women control tithing, and families run church policy, pastors soon learn to tread softly on certain topics. I’ve seen several pastors run out of churches because they departed from the script. Their names were blackened, and many were driven away from faith. Despite confession and repentance. Which I ve never seen from a proud single mommy.

    This is not how church should be.

  2. @ Denise

    The young men might have checked out for a reason, but the leadership often doesn’t hear what those reasons were. I do think that if the men raised as much of a fit as women have in the church that at some point, the concerns of the men would be addressed.

    I’m not so sure about that. As Deti has pointed out, some church leaders do “get it.” But most of those who do know that if they do anything about it, they are likely to get the boot. After all, addressing the concerns of those men will mean reining in women, and that will enrage the Herd.

    Of course, some might genuinely try to fix things. I’m just not sure it will be that many.

  3. Ton

    Pastors, priests etc are basically women so they will all most always have a fem centric view of the world.

    You ladies come to Ft Bragg and I’ll put you up, guarantee your virtue, and introduce you to some young men I know.

  4. Jzb

    @chad

    I get the masculinity part. Rehab convert who lived a life of sin is more masculine than the sheltered Christian nice guy, no objections here. Again I’m only emphasizing that the church doesn’t help men develop masculinity of they don’t have it already, and that Godliness will never make up for a lack of masculinity.

    I’m certainly on the road to developing said masculinity, but again I can’t help but be pissed off at the lost investment. Trying to develop at 29 what I thought I was developing from ages 17-27 through my involvement in church, para church ministries, etc.

  5. I disagree with you. I think there is a difference. The difference lies in that Godly women avoid putting themselves into situations where they’ll even HAVE to say no. And then they surround themselves with people that will say no for them.
    That is how women stay chaste, not through direct personal choice which is inherently masculine, but through indirect personal choice, which is more feminine.
    Godly women don’t have to say no, friends and family do it for them so that when they see a Godly man, they’re able to submit with a very great joy.

    This is completely true. I can testify to that.

    I know some women who fall into category 3. And in real life, not simply on-line. There aren’t many, but they exist. Just as there are men who fall into that category.

    Well, if people have had different personal experiences, alrighty.

  6. Pingback: Fear the final frontier | Reflections on Christianity and the manosphere

  7. @ Red Pill

    Well, if people have had different personal experiences, alrighty.

    Considering how few of them I do know, its not terribly surprising that we would have different personal experiences.

    I’ve long compared this situation to ships passing in the night- its very easy for good men and women to miss each other in the fog and darkness of the present culture.

  8. The scripture does ask the same question….”Who can find a virtuous woman?”

    ….Apparently the answer is, just a few lucky menfolk.

  9. deti

    “I’ve long compared this situation to ships passing in the night- its very easy for good men and women to miss each other in the fog and darkness of the present culture.”

    I disagree with Slumlord over at Social Pathologist about a lot of things. But one thing he has pointed out that I agree with came from his posts about the female commenter Augustina, who is married to a weak, sick man who cannot or will not lead his family.

    The church and her members have for far too long insisted that Eros (sexual desire, romantic love) should play no part in how men and women couple and marry. This is wrong. Eros is important because it tends to be the “glue” that causes the man and woman to bond to each other. Eros, properly applied, is the superglue that keeps her with him when her looks fade. In turn, women are intended to be virgins at marriage because of their tendency to imprint sexually on masculine men.

  10. On the question of whether there are truly godly/virtuous women and in what quantities, I think something that Scripture is clear about is that the devout are not above sinning. That sounds contradictory, but it’s such a clear pattern. The Sunday Scripture post talked about King David’s judgment for , 1. Adultery, and 2. Orchestrating an *innocent* man’s death. But before any of that happened, God Himself said of David: “‘I have found in David the son of Jesse a man after my heart, who will do all my will.’” (Acts 13:22) Yes, David truly loved God and God testified to the authenticity of his devotion. But that doesn’t mean that David was beyond sinning, even sinning grievously.

    I could also refer to Peter’s denial of Christ, after Peter had been in Jesus’ inner circle and was the first to testify of His true nature. Or Moses, of whom God said he was the most humble man on earth (Num. 12:3), who in the end, committed a presumptuous sin and wasn’t allowed to enter into Canaan.

    Again, it was God, not man who testified to their righteousness. So, when it comes to our dealings with people, I think we have to accept that there’s never a point where you know that you’re going to get home free. Sin is something that is fought every day. And when it comes to women (and men, as the Scripture shows), it is possible for the truly righteous to fall. It’s not a given that the righteous will fall (Job didn’t), but it is possible.

    So knowing that, the question seems to be whether people can accept the inherent risk of living with and loving sinful human beings who will always remain subject to temptation, even if they’ve consistently shown good character.

  11. “Again I’m only emphasizing that the church doesn’t help men develop masculinity of they don’t have it already, and that Godliness will never make up for a lack of masculinity.”

    I would argue that men cannot be Godly without being masculine. It’s a complete perversion of God’s Will for men to be weak willed nice guys. I’m with you on blaming the Church, but we need, oh-so-desperately, to stop calling weak men Godly.

    No man in the bible that was beloved by God was weak of will. Not a single one, unless they were stumbling at the time. But God only holds them in his favor when they are strong willed and that will is aligned with God’s will; the will that was strong enough to create the Universe.

    Stop calling weak willed men Godly men, and you’re on the right path, and you will help your church become non-Churchian. Once you accept that, then the world is much easier to handle and makes much more sense. We want Christ, with all his strength, living within our hearts as men. Accept no substitutes or half measures.

  12. Jzb

    “No man in the bible that was beloved by God was weak of will. Not a single one, unless they were stumbling at the time. But God only holds them in his favor when they are strong willed and that will is aligned with God’s will; the will that was strong enough to create the Universe.

    Stop calling weak willed men Godly men, and you’re on the right path, and you will help your church become non-Churchian. Once you accept that, then the world is much easier to handle and makes much more sense. We want Christ, with all his strength, living within our hearts as men. Accept no substitutes or half measures.”

    It’s profound, but there’s little hope for the men who are of weak will if this I’d the case. To transform from a weak to strong will/lack of masculinity to masculinity takes a Herculean effort. One that Jesus, prayer, bible study, and the church can’t help with. A young man will ride or die on the basis of his own efforts. If he didn’t have the environment that encouraged the growth of his masculinity, he’s in dire straights. No amount of church, Jesus, bible, Holy Spirit, is going to make a man of him.

  13. Jzb

    Chad I’d love to hear you clarify.

    Because it would seem your position contradicts the premise of the gospel.

    Godly=masculine. If you’re not masculine, you’re not godly. So what part does committing your life to following Jesus play in godliness? Fighting to abstain from sin? Seeking to die to yourself? To love others?

    Is it so black and white?

  14. JZB, I would say that, for men, being Masculine is -a part- of being Godly; one that is necessary. It’s not that men whom aren’t masculine won’t be saved, but that men whom aren’t masculine are not mature in their faith. If they’re not mature in their faith, I wouldn’t call them Godly.

    On the flip side, I wouldn’t call women whom aren’t feminine Godly either.

    The Bible is very clear about how men and women should act. It gives a plethora of direct rules for those that need a system, and it gives even more subtext for men to find the heart of what God’s Will is behind those rules. The patriarchs, the beatitudes, and the virtues are a man’s guide to becoming a man, should he find himself without a father that led him to masculinity.

    It is no where near black and white, though I can understand if it appears that way from where you’re standing.

    Once you know the rules, you have so, SO much freedom to move within those rules. Then, should you have the gift from God to gain any insight to the will of his behind those rules, you become more limited again, yet he gives you so much joy, freedom, and peace should you accept the limitations that he places, and worship him in all you do. Pray without ceasing.

    I’m sorry if that doesn’t make sense. I’m 28 and it’s just been two years of intensely searching for masculinity and myself as a shy extrovert who continually tests ENTJ now that I’m more comfortable with myself. I just found God and Catholicism about 8 months ago. I’m on the brink, and I only have the ability to witness what I’ve experienced and seen in my journey.

    My personal blog of life experiences just shut down to private, but I’m exploring Godly Masculinity from a view of what I just said above on the new one. If any of what I’ve said intrigues you, keep reading Donal, Deep Strength, and myself. I feel like we’re all attacking the same issue, with the same ideas, from drastically different parts of the battlefield. The Christian manosphere is full of inspiration right now.

  15. “It’s profound, but there’s little hope for the men who are of weak will if this I’d the case. To transform from a weak to strong will/lack of masculinity to masculinity takes a Herculean effort. One that Jesus, prayer, bible study, and the church can’t help with. A young man will ride or die on the basis of his own efforts. If he didn’t have the environment that encouraged the growth of his masculinity, he’s in dire straights. No amount of church, Jesus, bible, Holy Spirit, is going to make a man of him.”

    You despair far too quickly. Christ is the best route to masculinity and strong will.

    Do you know how to win a sword fight? You have to not care whether you live or die.

    Faith in resurrection makes for some scary opponents.

  16. I realized after hitting post that I didn’t answer the question you asked, but skipped to the post-answer.

    Yes, it is that black and white. Godliness doesn’t leave room for will of the self, should you actually pursue Godliness. God demands our will, we sacrifice our will, and we are turned into Sons of God, with Godly Masculinity living within our hearts, because Jesus is within our hearts. When we put our will first, we kick Jesus out until we invite him back in. We may still be masculine, but we’re certainly not Godly in those periods. Check out how Solomon, David, Saul, Moses, and every other Patriarch of the bible acts when they defy God. (I name those only because they’re the ones I’ve read so far. Just finished 2 Samuel and on 1 Kings).

    After you complete the black and white, “Obey” tasks, you gain the freedom I described

  17. @ jzb

    It’s profound, but there’s little hope for the men who are of weak will if this I’d the case. To transform from a weak to strong will/lack of masculinity to masculinity takes a Herculean effort. One that Jesus, prayer, bible study, and the church can’t help with. A young man will ride or die on the basis of his own efforts. If he didn’t have the environment that encouraged the growth of his masculinity, he’s in dire straights. No amount of church, Jesus, bible, Holy Spirit, is going to make a man of him.

    I can understand your sense of despair. But your dire assessment is, thankfully, wrong:

    But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

    And I agree with Chad. Godliness is either masculine or feminine. Man and woman He created us. Godliness is inherently tied to our respective natures. To truly be holy as a man requires you be masculine, because God created us so in order that we might carry out our tasks here on Earth.

  18. @ Denise

    On the question of whether there are truly godly/virtuous women and in what quantities, I think something that Scripture is clear about is that the devout are not above sinning.

    This is true. None of us are without sin. I think that what you should look for to see if a woman (or a man for that matter) is truly Godly/virtuous is a couple of character traits:

    1) She acknowledges her own sinful nature
    2) She actively avoids putting herself in a situation where temptation is likely
    3) She doesn’t lie about it to herself or rationalize it away when she does sin
    4) She feels real guilt and is truly repentant once she has realized her sins

    The problem is that many of those traits are lacking in most women these days. And as I think about it, in men too.

  19. Purple Tortoise

    I had the same fears back in my single days, but there is hope: in my mid-30’s I married a woman 10 years younger, and we have a very happy marriage with several children. On my part, it took patience looking for the right sort of woman. On my wife’s part, it took a conscious decision to give me a chance even though I didn’t initially hit her attraction triggers (but I do now!).

  20. jzb

    I’m ok with being wrong, it’s just at this point I’m having a hard time seeing past the despair.

    For all of my Christian life I believed the scripture you quoted, amongst many others. I had hope that God could change and transform me, ultimately I’ve come to recognize that in terms of my masculinity – I’ll be the one doing the changing and transforming. And so I don’t find hope in those words, because for ten years all of my hope, prayer, service, and study of scripture have not resulted in any real change. The timidity, the anxiety, the emotional baggage, etc. all remain.

    I understand the spiritual principal, but I haven’t seen pragmatic results. And so I’m skeptical, I just don’t see a spiritual/Jesus based solution to my lack of masculinity. It is ride or die based on whether or not I nut up and makes it happen. Ok I get it, but what if I can’t make it happen? What if I can’t overcome the baggage? What if I’m not strong enough? Smart enough? Resilient enough? Then what?

    Again I could very well be wrong, this is just where I’m at in the process.

  21. Ton

    If you need or want to butch up, get into the ring. Boxing, MMA, kick boxing etc. Find a gym that produces fighters, train smart and hard to 6-9months an then get to fighting. Get 10-12 fights under your belt an problem solved

  22. femininebutnotfeminist

    I wasn’t gonna get involved here but changed my mind… I have mixed feelings about this story. On the one hand I am very happy that this couple finally found each other. I do believe them when they say they were virgins and for whatever reason just never found someone before (by the way Donal, I really like your “ships sailing in the night” way of describing how hard it can be for some people!). I believe that it’s better to find someone late rather than never, even though it’s certainly not ideal to be single until your 40’s. And on the other hand it reminded me of my own dread at the possibility of being single that long myself (hopefully God forbid!), so I know where you’re coming from Donal.

    Having said that, I think we all need to be very careful about judging this woman just because she married so late because we really don’t know the whole story. We don’t know where her heart is/was, we don’t know her circumstances (most of them anyway), and we don’t know what God has led her to sacrifice for His kingdom. It’s like Deep Strength has talked about a number of times on his blog ( http://www.deepstrength.wordpress.com ), it’s the heart that matters, and oftentimes the outside behaviors look the same to those that don’t know where someone’s heart is. For example, a career woman will take her job very seriously and work very hard to get as far ahead as she can. Also, a woman who has no immediate family to live with or husband to depend on will also take her job very seriously and work very hard to get as far ahead as she can, but for very different reasons. The career woman does so because of ambition, pride, arrogance, independence, etc. The other woman does so because she must to survive, lest she be starving and cold under a bridge somewhere, but would have no problem whatsoever going part-time or quitting altogether if she had a husband who wanted her to. Again, we don’t know where this woman’s heart and motives for things are and should not be so quick to judge.

  23. femininebutnotfeminist

    Oh, and all this talk about how if a woman isn’t married before turning 30 (who decided that 30 was the magic number anyway???) then something is very wrong with her is going overboard. And also the idea that an attractive virgin will have her pick and have no trouble with men is not true. I have known some girls (myself included) that regularly get told how pretty AND nice we are, oftentimes by guys who for whatever reason choose not to ask us out (I challenge someone to explain this one to me). There are sooooo many reasons why some women end up marrying late or not at all. For some women it is any of the reasons that have been said so many times: feminist way of thinking, riding the carousel, being way too picky and not giving most guys a chance, etc. It can also be that she will only take a christian guy, and as this post shows ( http://peacefulsinglegirl.wordpress.com/2013/12/19/why-dont-the-godly-guys-pursue-christian-women/ ) huge amounts of christian guys just aren’t chasing christian girls anymore because of the behavior of the non-christian girls who claim (falsely) to be. Or because christian girls are taught that they shouldn’t chase a guy because it is unladylike and he won’t respect/want what he can easily get so they don’t show interest even though they want to. Or maybe some are actually in awe of the vast majority of young men in general that we are very shy around them at first which may give the impression of disinterest, and only guys that aren’t worried about rejection bother to try and break through our walls. Or maybe she can’t find a guy who is waiting to have sex only after getting married and she isn’t willing to compromise on that. Or maybe she cares more about following God than anything else and He has her doing something that just doesn’t allow her to focus on finding a husband even though she wants one.

  24. FBNF
    I would say, as a man who is more than happy to put himself ‘out there’ and suck up the courage to do something about finding a wife, that the overwhelming thing keeping me from relationships with Christian women is that they simply aren’t interested in marriage. Whether this is a lack of actual interest, or a lack of ability on their part to communicate that interest, is something I’m unable to really determine – to a man they look like the same thing and there’s no way for us to really discern one or the other.

    My approach to courtship is much like my approach to swing dancing. I will ask someone if she wants to join me for a time, I will lead her out into the world with what I want to do, clear a space for her, and let her embody that space. I will change my course of actions to suit her abilities, but I won’t change myself, my desires, or my leadership style. I lead every woman differently, but only in that I use different methods to achieve my goal – a beauty embodied by a tension and energy expressed by a man and woman in healthy relationship dynamics.

    Many women, in regards to relationships, won’t accept the invitation. Of those that do, many simply aren’t suited to me. Of those that are, many show no appreciation for what I’ve just given them. And I’ve yet to find someone who enthusiastically asks for more.

    My first and most important thing in a wife is someone that wants to adore God with me; which means enthusiastically accepting my lead of them in that adoration.

    Rare is the woman that can fulfill that simple requirement for any man, let alone find individuals well suited to each other.

  25. Ack, meant feminine but not feminist there. Read the comment by Denise in the other thread, and put her handle here for some reason.

    [DG: Fixed it.]

  26. My first and most important thing in a wife is someone that wants to adore God with me; which means enthusiastically accepting my lead of them in that adoration.
    Rare is the woman that can fulfill that simple requirement for any man, let alone find individuals well suited to each other.

    You’ve tapped into what I’ve been saying for a while now. Women aren’t interested in loving God….they’re only interested in landing a top tier, 473 point man.
    It’s only *after* they’ve landed said man that they have a Come to Jesus moment and start preaching submission.

  27. Yeah, I’m starting to learn I might need to simply find a woman whom I think can be taught to submit when led, but I’m unsure what that looks like. How to determine if something will be there that isn’t is a mystery to me.

  28. Andrew at The Rules Revisited said something I thought was interesting. In advising women to dress more attractively, he said that men want a good woman, but they will look for a good woman among the women they find attractive. Those that don’t strike his fancy aren’t considered, regardless of their other good qualities. Men seem to accept that they do this but hate it when women do likewise. Perhaps both men and women are superficial and should change. But then again, attraction is what it is.

    Also, if you look around at all the men wearing wedding bands, are they all “top tier, 473 point men”? The fact that many Average Joes (or Above Average Joes) are married would seem to belie the insistence that a man has to be Super Alpha to get married to a decent woman.

  29. Yeah, I’m starting to learn I might need to simply find a woman whom I think can be taught to submit when led, but I’m unsure what that looks like. How to determine if something will be there that isn’t is a mystery to me.

    That’s the thing; it’s a crapshoot. Women are complete and total actresses, and will mold themselves around any man that they want to get their claws in. They will pretend to like what you like, laugh at jokes that they don’t think are funny. and wear clothes they hate….all to ensure the wedding.
    Afterwards, however, it’ll be a different story.

    Your best bet is to:
    1) Increase your status as much as possible
    2) Learn game

    Don’t focus on finding her; focus on improving yourself and the women will present themselves to you. You’re going to have to Game her no matter who she is.

  30. Also, if you look around at all the men wearing wedding bands, are they all “top tier, 473 point men”? The fact that many Average Joes (or Above Average Joes) are married would seem to belie the insistence that a man has to be Super Alpha to get married to a decent woman.

    That means absolutely nothing. That is only because there aren’t enough top tier men to go around, not because that isn’t what women really want.

    Women start at the top; the best men available in their sphere; and work their way down, based on what their looks and charm can land them. They start with the top Alphas and move down until they find one that will commit. There are many more Average Joes than other types of men, and rest assured, if the woman has any youth or beauty at all, she has gone for the Quarterback first. She’ll take the Running Back if the QB is already locked down.

  31. @redpillsetmefree. This would be like me saying, “It’s only because there aren’t enough supermodels to go around that men are married to average-looking women.” Yes, people are attracted to attractive people, and are very attracted to very attractive people. That has not meant, however, that no one finds happiness or fidelity with someone that is not super attractive. Plenty of people have and do.

  32. This would be like me saying, “It’s only because there aren’t enough supermodels to go around that men are married to average-looking women.”

    Well, it’s true. If there were enough 19-25 gorgeous submissive sweet virgins to go around, men everywhere would be delighted.
    But alas. The carousel is real.

    Yes, people are attracted to attractive people, and are very attracted to very attractive people. That has not meant, however, that no one finds happiness or fidelity with someone that is not super attractive. Plenty of people have and do.

    Indeed they do…but Chad’s original point was that he was having difficulty finding professed Christian women that are interested in marriage.
    And there’s no such thing as a woman that’s not interested in marriage if the man is high status enough and/or has enough resources. Hence my advice to him and every man….self-improvement as a man gives you more options.

    Women only have 15 years, one hymen, and one first love….they can’t improve themselves to recover any of that.

  33. Pingback: Red Pill Rules Post #4 | RedPillPushers

  34. That means absolutely nothing. That is only because there aren’t enough top tier men to go around, not because that isn’t what women really want.

    The men currently married are not a randomised, representative sample group. Neither does the a wedding band indicate relationship health, or actual marital status.

    Women prefer top tier men, and often settle for beta men once their ability to attract attention, which is often just sheer youth, has receded.

    That so many women regret settling for beta men is evident in their willingness to divorce them.

  35. “he was having difficulty finding professed Christian women that are interested in marriage.” <—And so our conversation comes full circle. If I could link back to my earlier comment I would.

    "And there’s no such thing as a woman that’s not interested in marriage if the man is high status enough and/or has enough resources." <—But you said you don't want just any woman, you want the chaste, submissive ones, who, if they genuinely are such, will be looking for marriage.

    "Hence my advice to him and every man….self-improvement as a man gives you more options." <—Yes, it does give more options at the outset. Like celebrities who knock everyone else out of the park when it comes to external attractiveness, they probably have the most options at all. Additional options do not, however, bring happiness or give you what will be needed to sustain a devoted marriage. Celebrities also provide proof of that.

  36. I would sum up my perspective as, “You just need one good egg.”

  37. And so our conversation comes full circle. If I could link back to my earlier comment I would.
    “And there’s no such thing as a woman that’s not interested in marriage if the man is high status enough and/or has enough resources.” <—But you said you don't want just any woman, you want the chaste, submissive ones, who, if they genuinely are such, will be looking for marriage.

    Yah but, he’s talking about actual Christian women. What you’re talking about is *Churchians.* Born again sluts who spent their youth riding the carousel and now want a man to pay full price for their used up bodies.

    Yes, it does give more options at the outset. Like celebrities who knock everyone else out of the park when it comes to external attractiveness, they probably have the most options at all. Additional options do not, however, bring happiness or give you what will be needed to sustain a devoted marriage. Celebrities also provide proof of that.

    I would agree with this point if I actually believed that women were interested in happiness or sustaining a devoted marriage.

  38. @redpillsetmefree | “Yah but, he’s talking about actual Christian women. What you’re talking about is *Churchians.* Born again sluts who spent their youth riding the carousel and now want a man to pay full price for their used up bodies.”

    I’m genuinely taken aback that you would write that when I clearly said the opposite. Have you been reading at all?

  39. Yes I have been…it’s just that in my experience, and that of many other men, when women talk about “real Christian women” they mean Churchians.
    If there are really women there as you say, then, all the better.
    But back to Chad’s dilemma; if they are chaste and virtuous, he says they still aren’t interested in marriage.
    And remember, 70% of divorces initiated by women. So there goes your “desire for devotion” theory.

  40. We seem to have gone a bit off-topic here. Perhaps I should start a new post, although I’m not sure exactly what everyone is addressing right now. A failure of many women to be interested in marriage? A failure for women to submit? Most Christian women being Churchians?

  41. @redpillsetmefree | I think that you want to believe that no virtuous women are interested in marriage.

    70% of divorces may be initiated by women, but 70% of marriages do not end in divorce. Furthermore, one cannot assume that there are not grounds that make the divorce non-frivolous. One also cannot assume that the husband is against it if the wife files. They both could want out.

    I’ll bow out at this point. People will believe about the world what they want to believe.

  42. Well, it never fails. Women being shocked and appalled and questioning a man’s world view when he makes it clear that chaste young beautiful women that want marriage are unicorns to men.

    But my initial response was to Chad about the women he encountered not wanting marriage.

  43. jack

    No Rings For Sluts ™

    Oh, how I love the gut-punch effect of that word to their egos. And I second the sentiment about not wanting to pay full price (marriage) for the picked-over remains of some stupid girl’s innocent.

    No scratch-n-dent specials.

  44. 50% of all marriages end in divorice… if 70% of them are by women then that’s 35% of all marriages or 1/3 of them are divoriced by women.

    It’s actually suggested that upwards of 80% of marriages or potentially higher because women force the men to file. That’s a pretty horrendous stat.

  45. Pingback: Fearless | Free Northerner

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s