Ongoing Discussion Concerning Men, Masculinity, Women And Femininity

This post is a continuation of an ongoing discussion that started in my Questions or Suggestions page between myself and commenter Nathan. Rather than fill up that page’s comments with a continuous discussion, I have decided to move it over here. That page is best used for single comments and responses, rather than replies in depth. As for this post, besides using it as a medium to answer Nathan’s questions, I think it could also serve as an excellent place to ask and answer ongoing questions about men/masculinity and women/femininity. I will recreate the conversation here to provide context for everyone, so that my next set of responses will make sense. I invite anyone with their own answers, or deeper ones, to contribute their thoughts in the comments. Also, if you have questions along a similar vein, feel free to add them in the comments as well.

Nathan first asked:

How much would you agree that women simply/merely want a man (and thus are attracted to men) who “tries/shows effort at” having a good job vs. a man who “is obsesively driven to excel at/improve” his job/career income/status. Will they commonly accept/show grace towards men who “at least show effort” or will they mostly be merciless and have zero acceptance/graceless towards men who don’t have ideal jobs/career and appear outwardly like they are very driven/successful?

Where is this line of acceptability/willingness to show grace towards men (who outwardly appear “attractive enough” to them)?

I responded:

My suspicion/belief is that women are result oriented, not process oriented. They don’t care how hard you work so much as you get results. They don’t care if a man tries to get a good job, they care if he has a good job. Although in the present environment a man’s job means very little to his attractiveness unless it is a high status one. While I think that they like a “driven man”, It is as much because they see it as a sign of future potential as anything.

I’m afraid I don’t quite get your last sentence, could you explain it a bit?

Nathan then continued:

Donal, thanks for answering my question. My intention for the last line was this: What is the common minimum threshold that women expect men to be or to accomplish before they begin to see a man as attractive? My understanding is that women only show forgiveness, grace, and mercy to men that they are already attracted to, and that any men below this minimum threshold of attractiveness don’t and will not ever receive similar forgiveness, grace, and mercy. What are your thoughts on this?

What more can you tell me about how to be “driven” and how/why that is seen as attractive to women?

My response to him:

I don’t think that you can really quantify that minimum threshold. It will vary from woman to woman. However, you can still be attractive to women even though you haven’t accomplished anything of note. That is what Bad Boys do, after all. Accomplishments (in this context) probably would fall under the Status attribute of LAMPS. You can get around having them by boosting your other attributes.

My understanding is that women only show forgiveness, grace, and mercy to men that they are already attracted to,

I’m not really convinced about this, to be honest. I think that women can be raised to show those attribute to all men. They just aren’t these days as a general rule. In fact, most modern women in the West are feral or one step above it. So unless you find a real gem of a woman, don’t expect much from her unless she is attracted to you.

How to be driven? I’m not sure that’s something that I, or anyone else, can teach. Its something you have to acquire for yourself. What advice I can give is that you need to find a purpose, a cause, a mission, other than women, to dedicate your life towards. Then, push yourself towards it and don’t let other things, especially women, distract you. Be relentless and unwavering. Women are attracted to this “drive” because it is one of the most potent expressions of Masculine Power. Women are drawn to conquerors, and that is what a driven man is.

Nathan’s next set of questions:

I was always categorizing “driven” into the money section as “easily identifiable, potentially high-income earner,” and not the Power section as “easily identifiable, masculine power demonstrator.”

I also struggle with the whole dynamic of “you must be passionate about your job and simultaneously have a high-status, high-income job,” which to me sounds really convenient if my passions were law or medicine, but what I’m passionate about is very expensive and doesn’t always pay well, and doing something else can quickly become a slow, mind-numbing death which kills all passion.

Maybe you could discuss this in a post at some point.

At present, my only solution is to either be poor and passionate or work a non-passionate job and treat my real passion as a part-time hobby or ministry on the side.

Also, I wonder if God calls some men to lucrative jobs that draw women and other men to low-earning jobs that often repel women. How do men make sense of that when they want to follow God’s direction and hopefully become married one day.

My final set of responses:

Money is fairly abstract and objective, something like Driven just doesn’t fit well there.

I don’t think it is necessary to be passionate about your job and have it be high status. The latter is more important than the former.

Remember, your job isn’t really that important for attracting women, unless you have a really high status one. Lawyer and doctor don’t really cut it there like they used to. Thanks to feminism, it takes a lot more to get a woman’s attention in that way.

As long as you can support a family, then don’t worry about your job as much. Instead, improve yourself in other areas. Ultimately, that will count a lot more. Also, Status doesn’t have to be purely job related. You can gain it from community involvement, church involvement, etc.

And yes, some men just have it easier when it comes to drawing in women. It isn’t simply about jobs, but in every facet of life. Life isn’t fair, so learn to accept it (and yes, I know how hard that is) and move on. Improve yourself in other areas and you can still come out on top.

This brings us to Nathan’s final set of questions, which I hadn’t answered yet:

In order for good Christian men to learn game or how to become more like a “reformed bad boy,” do they need to treat women more as a “meh” tag-along accessory to their life and daily plans? As in, “I’m going to fulfill my will and plans independently, no matter what you think, and I honestly don’t care what you think, and you’re welcome to tag-along with me, but I’m not interested in hearing any negative talk or complaining out of you. If you have a problem with that, then you can take a hike! (But then also make sure to fulfill your plans and push yourself to new challenges, and keep all of your emotions like fears and hurts to yourself)”

And any other ideas you might add!

I’m frustrated that the “helpmeet” women seem more like burdens than helpers. Maybe that changes if we do all the stuff above?

Do you have any posts about self-respect and self-worth as a Man/Man of God, and perhaps also where those overlap and/or contradict one another?

Now, to respond to Nathan’s latest set of questions:

I’m not sure that treating women like an accessory, especially a “meh” type of accessory, is the right move to make. A quality Christian woman, one who would make a good wife, would likely find that view of her worth as offensive. And for good reason, because a wife is man’s greatest possession. A better approach I think is to internalize the Captain/First Officer mindset. This helps keep women off of a pedestal, which is critical. Also, it sets up the right frame of reference in your mind. A good XO is a great asset to have in your life, but not absolutely necessary.  Instead, you have in your mind the idea that “I’m in charge of this household and of the mission that God appointed me to. You can join me in the mission if you like, but only if you are willing to follow orders (and without grumbling), to be responsible for what I assign you, to manage the household while I’m gone and otherwise add value to my life/contribute to the mission. If not, then the job isn’t for you.”

As for “helpmeet” women, I don’t think being any more “Alpha” will make as much of a difference as you think. It really is up to the woman in question to determine if she can/will be an able helpmeet or not. If you are more attractive, she might grumble less and oppose you less, but that doesn’t mean she will be less of a burden and more of a help. That’s all on her and her willingness to live up to her duties to the Lord and to her husband.

Lastly, I don’t recall having any posts which specifically address the concepts of self-worth and self-respect as a Man/Man of God. I’m sort of working on one now, but it only covers one aspect of this dynamic. It is worth exploring, and I will think on it some once I finish that post. Until then Nathan I recommend that you read Deep Strength’s new blog, as he touches on some similar matters. Mind you, much of his work is of a fairly advanced level, but if you can understand it you will find it to be of a great benefit.
And that finishes this post. Once again, if anyone has any thoughts/questions/answers/concerns to add, feel free to mention them in the comments.
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27 Comments

Filed under Femininity, Masculinity, Men, Red Pill, Women

27 responses to “Ongoing Discussion Concerning Men, Masculinity, Women And Femininity

  1. My experience with women is that you have to separate out the “meh” about women from the “meh” about a particular woman.

    If you want a traditional Christian wife, you need to be viewed as a traditional Christian husband. It should be clear that you take that role seriously. However, you should not seriously consider individual women as able to fulfill that role until they display the ability to fulfill that or a willingness to step up to that role under your leadership.

    If going with the Captain/First Officer route, you don’t put every ensign in the First Officer chair as soon as you meet them only to angrily or disappointingly boot them out when they mess up. You invite them along and see what they’re capable of. Most women will bow out. Some will flare out. Some will trail along without showing any enthusiasm or desire to step it up. You don’t put any of them in the chair meant for First Officer, but keep it empty and waiting for the one that does. Let it’s emptiness speak of your ability to chose and the quality you expect (which should match the quality of yourself as a captain, don’t overestimate yourself in pride). You’ll get more attention from women you’re considering, and more attention from women in your church that want to play match maker.

  2. A “willingness to be led” is one of the biggest things that Donal and I say we look for in a wife. Here’s my list and it’s one component of that (oh, and I got my first troll so that was fun):

    http://deepstrength.wordpress.com/2014/01/29/what-i-look-for-in-evaluating-a-potential-wife/

    Even if she holds many feminist or other opinions but is willing to be led and loves the Lord (by her actions, her femininity, etc.) then she is moldable (but you still have to be careful about how entrenched she is/was). That’s what you look for in a wife because she will change but you will also change as you learn to lead her more. For both men and women looking for spouses, we need to be looking for an opposite partner who is willing to change because of two facts:

    1. No one is ever perfect going into marriage. There are going to be a lot of things you need to change about yourself, and that she also needs to change able yourself when you get married.

    2. You are both going to grow together and in the Lord. This is also part of the change that I talked about in point 1 because marriage is not flowers and butterflies — it’s going to be hard but hopefully satisfying.

    This is why leading her spiritually that I talked about here is important… because when you walk her through the roles and responsibilities of a husband and wife as well as many other current issues in Scripture she will either conform to what God says or she will keep with her own selfish desires. This sorts the women who are women who love God versus those that don’t desire God:

    http://deepstrength.wordpress.com/2014/01/18/leave-her-better-than-how-you-found-her/

  3. FWIW, imo, hypergamy is relative to the woman’s own position, not relative to other men. Meaning that if joining her life to a particular man will take her further than she would be by herself, a woman can both respect such a man and submit to him. I say that because if men think that to be attractive to a woman they have to be the “most” x, y, or z relative to other men, they will likely assume they have no chance with women that they do.

    I’m not sure what to make of “tries/shows effort” at having a good job. But I would note that most ostensibly successful men met their wives when they had little or nothing–generally as students or early in their careers.

  4. Denise, you are correct about hypergamy when you use the strict, literal definition. However, the behavior which is commonly described with that term also inclines a woman towards the highest status male as well. The relative position of other men does matter. It is a readily observable fact. Perhaps some of my Protestant readers can contribute their experiences with this phenomenon inside their churches.

    Fortunately, Status isn’t as significant of an attribute as Masculine Power, so a lower status man isn’t in a hopeless position. He just needs to compensate by working on his masculinity and charisma.

  5. Hmm…I think that we can talk about who is attractive or most attractive to the most number of people, and we can also talk about how one can have a happy relationship. The fact that there are more attractive people around, to whatever degree, is something that will always be present for everyone. But that isn’t what determines whether two people can be happy together. There is a floor that has to be exceeded, which is the man’s position relative to the woman’s. Beyond that, the success or failure of the relationship would depend on other things, such as compatibility, values, family support and expectations, good experiences together, etc.

  6. “I’m going to fulfill my will and plans independently, no matter what you think, and I honestly don’t care what you think, and you’re welcome to tag-along with me, but I’m not interested in hearing any negative talk or complaining out of you. If you have a problem with that, then you can take a hike! (But then also make sure to fulfill your plans and push yourself to new challenges, and keep all of your emotions like fears and hurts to yourself)”

    This doesn’t look like a Christian marriage to me–at least, not how it was described in the Bible. Why would a “good Christian man” ever pitch something like this to his intended?

  7. As for “helpmeet” women, I don’t think being any more “Alpha” will make as much of a difference as you think. It really is up to the woman in question to determine if she can/will be an able helpmeet or not. If you are more attractive, she might grumble less and oppose you less, but that doesn’t mean she will be less of a burden and more of a help. That’s all on her and her willingness to live up to her duties to the Lord and to her husband.

    I agree with this. Making yourself more Alpha – essentially with the goal of gaming your wife into submission – just covers her sin. If she’s unsubmissive – and most modern women seem to be – then that is the problem, not the man’s lack of alpha-ness.

  8. ” If she’s unsubmissive – and most modern women seem to be – then that is the problem, not the man’s lack of alpha-ness.”

    I’m going to chime in. I would argue the exact opposite. Women need boundaries. They crave them. Their desire for a bad boy is rooted in not being able to manipulate him and being given firm boundaries for their relationship. To a woman unhealthy boundaries are better than none.

    Personally, I set boundaries for women all the time. It has become one of the most important parts of my game (I know a lot of guys around here don’t like that term).

    Example from this last Sunday:

    Girl: (runs over to tell me hi and intentionally interrupts my conversation) Hey, what are you……….

    Me: I’m sorry, I was talking. Now you have to wait.

    Conversation continues as normal and I make her wait for at least 2 minutes while I make eye contact periodically to let her know she’s not forgotten. The guy I’m talking to gets really uncomfortable.

    Me: Ok, I’m done. Hi.

    Girl: That was rude.

    Me: You were rude first. Do better next time.

    5 minute conversation…….

    Girl to my Fiance: I really like talking to him, I can see why you picked him.

    Fiance: I didn’t pick him, he picked me.

    No exaggerations. Suffice it to say she is very respectful of me and what I’m doing every time she sees me. She has firm boundaries with me and she enjoys talking to me because of them.

    Women can’t fix themselves as a group (some individuals can, but they are exceptions). We literally have to do it for them.

  9. @ JoJ

    Great example. I was just discussing that with deti here:

    http://deepstrength.wordpress.com/2014/01/29/red-pill-and-game/#comment-265

    The key is not just setting the standard, but also explaining why you set the standard. If you don’t explain why then it’s likely she will just get more emotional and frustrated and be more prone to lashing out.

  10. @DS

    The important part is not rewarding bad behavior. Women know that they are pushing limits. They want to see if yours are real or not (thus displaying value). The important part is to make sure you approach it like you would a game (which is where the term comes from, a lot of people don’t know that). You don’t have to be serious. I smirked at her while I made her wait. She knew what she did wasn’t right and I called her on it, then I made sure not to reward bad behavior by indulging her (while still not taking it/her too seriously).

  11. Women can’t fix themselves as a group (some individuals can, but they are exceptions). We literally have to do it for them.

    As a practical matter, I like your example of the interrupting girl. Of course rewarding bad behavior is a bad idea. The problem with your quote above, though, is that it can’t be squared with the clear and direct command to wives in Ephesians 5:33

    33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

  12. I’m frustrated that the “helpmeet” women seem more like burdens than helpers. Maybe that changes if we do all the stuff above

    This sounds like a question. What must he do to be more attractive? Achieving increased value should also answer the frustration. Ie stop taking on women’s burdens. Women were created for men. If he is finding them burdensome, that suggests they view him as low value, good only to help them move house, listen to their emotional outbursts and supplying attention whenever she needs it.

    As you said donal, there is no minimum threshold he must meet. My own Protestant experiences were that young men get no respect, and having a well earning job or passion for something means nothing to girls, unless they find those same things interesting.

    Girls that are attracted to shows of wealth per set are bad news.

    Meaning that if joining her life to a particular man will take her further than she would be by herself, a woman can both respect such a man and submit to him

    I found this interesting but disturbing. Women are neither terribly insightful about their own smv, nor are they trainedto submit to a prospective husband.

    So whilst she will be casting around for a status jump to boost her place in the herd, she will not be developing the helpmeet attitudes. She’s in this for her own advancement within team woman, and this leaves young men in a particularly awkward spot. Little wonder that most of the women Nathan sees seem more bother. He cannot bump their herd status, so they use him as a utilkitatian ego booster. Well, that would be my guess.

  13. @ Denise

    I agree about there being a floor, and you are right that it needs to involve a man with higher status than a woman, although I think that along doesn’t determine the floor. More is involved. But otherwise you are right that healthy relationships (I assume we are talking about marriage here) depend on much more than that.

    @ Siygn

    I agree, that approach wasn’t Christian. Which is why I suggested an alternative.

    @ An Observer

    The topic of Burden vs. Helpmeet is one worth exploring in its own post, but is something that concerns me. I don’t want to be driven to the rooftop, as it were, by a woman that doesn’t add “value” to my life. The key is filtering.

  14. @ Sunshinemary, JoJ and Deep Strength

    Being more masculine makes things easier for women, this is true. They find submitting easier, and perhaps even enjoyable. But the ultimate decision to submit rests in them. And submission isn’t the end. She still needs to be a benefit, not a burden. If she doesn’t cultivate the right mindset, and the right skills, then her submission means little. She might not nag, but she doesn’t “add value.”

  15. Pingback: Understanding Attraction | Reflections on Christianity and the manosphere

  16. Yep, a woman always has a choice whether she wants to submit or walk away. The big key is choosing one who trusts you enough to submit.

  17. @sunshine

    You are correct that women should be doing this on their own. My point isn’t that what she did isn’t her fault, but that with intervention (like with a child, and that analogy holds so well for most women) they can indeed be better. They should be doing it on their own.

  18. @Donal

    “She might not nag, but she doesn’t ‘add value.'”

    You tell me how to market this to the average western woman and I’ll buy you a steak. Women today honestly consider themselves marriage material based on how few (what we would refer to as) bad traits they have.

  19. I don’t think you can JoJ. The sad fact is that the average western woman simply isn’t suited for biblical marriage anymore.

    Of course, thinking on it, neither is the average western man.

  20. jack

    I think that women are almost completely color-blind to masculine process. They only see results. I don’t understand feminine process. I only see results.

    This is why some women are fooled by men who display debt-sourced wealth, while assuming that men who are frugal (but perhaps well off) are poor.

    Women cannot see anything directly. They must wait until it casts a shadow on their emotional screen. Just how they’re wired.

  21. jack

    I agree with this. Making yourself more Alpha – essentially with the goal of gaming your wife into submission – just covers her sin. If she’s unsubmissive – and most modern women seem to be – then that is the problem, not the man’s lack of alpha-ness.

    Well put. All that happens is an arms-race with women upping the bitch factor, and men having to bring more ahole to the table.

    Eventually, you wind up with the guy playing the ultimate trump card: physical violence (kind of a “cheat code” for game).

    Which is why out-of-control hot (but crazy) women often end up with psychos who beat the crap out of them.

    They would rather have a sick, abusive boundary than none at all.

  22. big key is choosing one who trusts you enough to submit.

    … and does it consistently, since many womens words and actions are a direct reflection of her current emotional state. I saw a great example of that just today, reinforcing my view of a particular womans love of gossip, and her lack of respect.

  23. They should be doing it on their own.

    But they do not, and they attempt to infect other members of the herd.

    My sister in law tried that just today. Desperate to pass on gossip, i suggested wed heard enough, and the rebellious woman rebuked for interrupting telling a story to her sister, who happens to be my wife.

    Seeing my wife wilt under this unwelcome and unwanted gossip, i wanted to take give the silly sil a spanking for being unruly. But that kind of discipline is frowned upon.

  24. As in, “I’m going to fulfill my will and plans independently, no matter what you think, and I honestly don’t care what you think, and you’re welcome to tag-along with me, but I’m not interested in hearing any negative talk or complaining out of you. If you have a problem with that, then you can take a hike! (But then also make sure to fulfill your plans and push yourself to new challenges, and keep all of your emotions like fears and hurts to yourself)”

    This is the attitude that will be evident once a woman has come off the pedestal – where she was never meant to be and a man has determined his path in life. She was created to help. Negative talk and complaining is not help. Don’t believe the furtherance of the lie nor this nonsense of a woman determining what is or is not Christian for a man. A woman worth marrying will find it very comforting to know that her husband has set out on his path and has determined for himself how he will fulfill the role and responsibilities he has chosen to take on as head of the wife.

  25. feeriker

    I’m not sure that treating women like an accessory, especially a “meh” type of accessory, is the right move to make. A quality Christian woman, one who would make a good wife, would likely find that view of her worth as offensive. And for good reason, because a wife is man’s greatest possession

    Allow me to be so bold as to finish that thought for you:

    “, but since “quality Christian women” are as rare as white Bengal tigers and are on the same path to extinction, the odds of you ever meeting such a woman are miniscule. With that in mind, take this statement as a precautionary disclaimer, applicable only in the unlikely event that you meet a woman whose company you can endure for more than a few werks before the FI takes over.”

  26. feeriker

    Women today honestly consider themselves marriage material based on how few (what we would refer to as) bad traits they have.

    Added to my “Quotable Quotes” collection (with full attribution, of course). Thanks, JoJ.

  27. Mrs. KTC

    ” If she’s unsubmissive – and most modern women seem to be – then that is the problem, not the man’s lack of alpha-ness.”
    Yes, submission is the wife’s responsibility. Her husband can make it easier for her to submit by having a clear vision for the family and by setting boundaries. Conversely, a wife can help her husband lead by stepping aside and trusting him – giving him the space to lead. Biblical submission is a rarity most women have no idea why or how to go about it. After all, they probably have never seen it. But it can be cultivated – I can attest to that.

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