[Note to my regular readers: the first part of this post is aimed for newcomers. The second section will contain material aimed more towards my regulars.]
The short answer to the above question: Because most women these days will give it up when pressured, or even without being pressured.
The first part of this post is aimed at young women interested in marriage (and primarily Christian women, although it is still valuable to non-Christians) who have asked that question before or are frustrated by the constant pressure for sex by most men in the dating scene. The long answer to that question, which follows this paragraph, is more complete and provides an explanation of why things are like this right now. I’ve broken it into segments for ease of understanding. The first segment deals with men, the second with women, and the third ties it all together. The second part of this post is designed for my regular readers, although it might interest newcomers at well. It covers some of the implications and wider impact of this paradigm, plus personal anecdotes. Expect to see some “insider language” in the post and in some of the discussion to follow. If you have questions feel free to ask in the comments below. Now, on to the long answer:
I. The Long Answer.
While trying to fit people into neat categories is usually problematic at best, it can really help with a general understanding of people’s motivations. Towards that end, I think it is helpful to break men into five different categories based on their attitude towards sex and marriage in order to understand male behavior in the dating environment.
1) Men who aren’t interested in marriage
2) Men who are interested in marriage but won’t marry a woman they haven’t slept with
3) Men who are interested in marriage and will push for sex before marriage but won’t insist on it
4) Men who are interested in marriage and won’t push for sex before marriage but will happily accept it if offered
5) Men who are interested in marriage and won’t push for sex before marriage and will not accept it if offered
Before I talk about the different categories, it is essential that female readers of this post understand how powerful the male sex drive is. Even at the peak of their cycle and with all of the right environmental factors in play, the female sex drive never gets to be as powerful as the male sex drive. To put it another way for the women reading this: Think of when you were the most sexual excited, the most aroused in your entire life. Then realize that feeling doesn’t come near to what men experience every minute of every day from the time they hit puberty until the time they die of old age. While it isn’t the only thing that men look for in women, sex is by far the most important need that women can meet for men.
For the purposes of this post, the men in category 1 are mostly irrelevant. They aren’t interested in marriage, only in sex. The problem they represent in the dating system is that it isn’t always easy to distinguish between them and men who are interested in marriage but push for sex. Before “dating” became the norm such men were both less common and easier to spot because their attention was directed primarily at prostitutes and “loose” women. They are more common now than in the past for a variety of reasons. Among them are changes in the family law system, the diminished respect for marriage and husbands/fathers in society and the greater availability of of sex outside of wedlock.
The next two categories, 2 and 3, are both very similar. The only difference is that men in category 2 insist on a “try before you buy” model of dating. I suspect, though cannot prove, that they are far, far less common than men in category 3. The most important thing to understand is that the overwhelming majority of men fall into category
3 2 [In the past category 3 was the most common, but with talk in the culture of “sexual compatibility, and concerns of frigidity, category 2 is probably the most common now]. And this has almost certainly always been the case. These men want sex and marriage, but they want sex more than marriage. If they can get sex without marriage, then great. Otherwise, if they have no choice, they will marry.
Categories 4 and 5 are, for the practical purposes of this post, nearly the same. The only difference is that only the men in category 5 are truly chaste (which is as much about thought as deed). Understand that the men in category 5 are the rarest by far, and this has probably always been so. Men in category 4 are more common, but not by a whole lot. At least, not these days.
With all of this in mind, it is important to understand that the majority of “Christian” men fall into category 3 as well. Despite clear commands in the Bible against fornication, most Christian men see no problem in ignoring them. When it comes to sex, men are very capable of rationalizing away nearly anything. And most men exercise this ability as often as they can.
Now on to women.
These days the vast majority of women are willing, and often more than willing, to have sex prior to securing commitment from a man. But this wasn’t always the case. Before the “sexual revolution” (which actually started decades before the 60’s), most women were far more circumspect in their sexual activity. As a general rule women wouldn’t have sex with a man prior to his committing to her. This was because of the high cost of sex at that time. In an age before effective contraceptives and wide scale use of abortion, sex could easily lead to an “inescapable” pregnancy, which if it happened out of wedlock was social death for a woman. Even if pregnancy didn’t result, the social costs to a woman were still significant if it was discovered that she was having sex out of wedlock. The major effects of these costs was to severely curtail a woman’s chances of marrying, much less marrying well. Considering the limited work opportunities available to women back then, this meant a abysmal standard of living for all but the highest class women.
Because of this, most women (outside of the lowest classes) insisted that a man commit to her before she would have sex with him. I say commit and not marry for two reasons. The first is that in the past there were a large numbers of “shotgun” weddings, perhaps even a majority of marriages involved the first child being born before nine months had passed since the wedding. As for the second reason, in the past engagement actually was a form of commitment on the man’s part. A man who broke an engagement with a woman was potentially subject to a civil action known as Breach of Promise to Marry. Couple that potential financial liability with a social penalty to a man who unjustifiably broke an engagement, and most men really were committed when they became engaged. This protection is largely gone now, as the social penalties are pretty much non-existent and Breach of Promise only exists in a handful of jurisdictions these days. The only kind of secure commitment that exists now is found in marriage itself.
With the above in mind, you can see that the reluctance of women to sleep with men prior to commitment was mostly based on self-interest. Some women might have been influenced by morality or religion to not have sex until marriage, but not all given the common occurrence of shotgun weddings. Certainly it wasn’t because women didn’t want sex; they do, provided it is with the right man. It is just that women wanted commitment, and the security that went with it, more than sex. All of this has changed. Women have far more job opportunities than they did in the past, and can rely on government support to cover what they cannot meet themselves. The social costs of sex out of wedlock and even children born out of wedlock are pretty much gone at this point. Not to mention contraception and the widespread availability of abortion further reduces the costs to women of sex.
C. Then Versus Now
Now to combine all of this together.
In the past, men, just like now, wanted sex. A lot. And so they pressured women for it. But most women would not give in until they secured commitment from the man. Essentially men demanded sex and women demanded commitment. The category 3 men were thus faced with a choice: either accept the woman’s terms and propose to her, or “dump” her and court (there was no “dating” back then) another woman. However, the odds were not in his favor, because most women would make the same demands. Thanks in large part to this solidarity amongst women those men who pushed for sex had to play by the rules women set. Since men valued sex more than they valued withholding their commitment the women won out.
This brings us to today. Men are the same as ever. But the vast majority of women have changed. They no longer insist on commitment before sex. Or at least, real commitment. They still want attention and validation and material resources if they can get them. But their security is not tied up to commitment like it was before, and so they are far freer to indulge their passions. And men know this. When a man from category 3 faces a woman who won’t sleep with him until they are married, he faces the same choice as before: accept her terms or move on. But the math is different this time; unlike before, the majority of women are more than willing to sleep with him before securing commitment. This means the odds are in his favor now. If he leaves the woman holding out, the odds are good that the next woman he dates will give him what he wants, without making him commit first. Because the old solidarity amongst women no longer exists, men no longer have to play by the rules that women set.
This brings us back to the question which started it all: why does my boyfriend pressure me for sex? The long answer is that he not only wants sex more than anything, but he expects to get it. Personal experience and/or the culture has told him that most women will sleep with men before they marry. Men want sex more than pretty much anything. They want it now. And nearly all don’t want to have to pay for it with commitment if they can help it. Truth is, most men have always pressured women for sex, and they always will. What has changed is how women act. So long as the majority of women are willing to give men what they want without demanding commitment first, men will pressure women for sex and leave if they don’t get it.
If you are looking to blame anyone for this present situation ladies, don’t blame the men. Blame the women who are empowering them.
II. Further Thoughts
This section is aimed at my regular readers. For those curious as to why I wrote the part above, and why I did it in that manner, I had a couple of reasons. The first is that I wanted to create a post that I could link in the future to provide female newcomers to the ‘sphere when they had a question along this vein. Over time expect to see more of these types of posts. The second reason is because I wanted to reply to one female commenter over at Peaceful Single Girl who asked this question in this thread. As for the title, I have seen it pop up on search inquiries that lead people to my blog in the past, so it seemed appropriate. While the answer itself seems obvious, I thought that there was some depth worth exploring there, plus it might help out younger women trying to come to grips with the SMP/MMP.
A. The Good Guys
There are a number of commenters in the ‘sphere who insist that there are a lot of “Good Christian Men” out there whom women ignore. That if only women would give those men a chance then they would find someone to respect them and treat them right. However, the truth is that a large number of these Christian “nice guys” fall into category 3. They are not chaste, and would gladly leap at an opportunity for fornication if it should become available. It is not a stretch to realize that if Christian women engage with them romantically then these “Good Christian Men” are just as prone to pushing them for sex as the bad boys are.
I know this because I know men like this. Guys who aren’t even nominal Christians, but seem to take their faith seriously. Except when it comes to sex. In that one particular field they are no different than their secular counterparts. Let me back this up with a personal anecdote.
When I was younger I went on a road trip with a friend of mine back from high school. He was an Evangelical Christian, and was more fervent in his faith than I was at that point. We arrived at one of our stops, which happened to be a rather fancy hotel that we got a great deal for. Basically a mini-resort kind of place. Well, after we check in and drop our bags inside our room we find out the hotel has an attached night club. We investigate and find out that it is a “happening” place most nights because there aren’t any other spots like it nearby (the hotel was kind of out of the way). Upon discovering this, my friend turns to me and tells me that if he lucks out that night I would be sleeping in the car. I was so surprised by this all I could respond with was a hesitant ok, while my mind tried to wrap itself around my friend’s words. Here was a guy who had “found Jesus” during high school and was very active in Christian activities, and yet had no qualms with the sin of fornication. Though the memory faded in significance over time, I never really forgot it.
And so when I read accounts from female readers of my blog via e-mail, and read comments by Christian women on various blogs all talking about how most Christian men don’t respect their desire for chastity, I didn’t dismiss them out of hand. The story I mentioned above, and others like it (and yes, I have more like it), all remind me that male chastity is a rare thing, perhaps even rarer than female chastity. Good Christian Men swim in the same sewer of modern culture that women do, and pick up the same messages about sex. And they are still men, with the corresponding male sex drive. While the female Rationalization Hamster is more active than the male version, men have a Hamster too. And sex is the one thing guaranteed to get the male Hamster spinning that wheel at full power. The truth is that only a handful of men have the discipline and the devotion to pursue a chaste life.
B. Looking In From The Other Side
I feel a lot of sympathy for chaste women out there who are trying to make their way through this mess of a Sexual Market Place. They don’t even want to be there in the first place, but the Marriage Market Place and Sexual Market Place are both basically existing in the same space. Chaste women are as much losers in this present system as are men who are looking for a chaste/virgin wife. For women, if they stick to their values there is a very good chance that most men they date will leave them and look elsewhere. It can take a very long time to find a man willing to respect their chastity. For men, we can spend a very long time looking for a woman who has been chaste and not find her. Or even if we do, we find that we are incompatible in some way.
The only way to turn this system around is to make the cost of sex significant again for women. Going after men won’t work for a variety of reasons, but the past has proven that if you convince women that being promiscuous is against their best interests then most women won’t be promiscuous. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to convince other people, even (or maybe especially) Christians of the importance of punishing promiscuity in women. Here is a quick story to help explain why.
I was talking with a female Christian acquaintance a few weeks back and mentioned the impact that other women’s behavior has on Christian women who desire to maintain their chastity. When I explained to her how I knew women who had trouble finding a husband because the men they dated kept on dumping them when they refused to have sex, she was flabbergasted. She had trouble believing this, not understanding how a man could fail to appreciate them. What she couldn’t grasp is that women with Marriage Market Values close to average (either just above or just below) don’t have the kind of value to keep a man around if they won’t put out. The woman I was speaking with did have a high MMV, on the other hand. Very few women match her value, and most any man who thought about dumping her because she wouldn’t sleep with him prior to marriage had to know that he really couldn’t do any better for a wife. But other women, women aren’t aren’t as good looking and don’t necessarily have all the other traits that make for a high MMV, they can’t rely on that. There are plenty of other women out there just like them, and they know it and men know it. The lower the woman’s MMV, the worse this system is for her.
As this story indicates, men and women with very high MMVs are less affected by the present MMP/SMP. Their value gives them the leverage they need to either find a chaste wife or to maintain their chastity. They don’t really feel the effects of the overall dysfunction. And because of this they don’t feel the same pressing need to change the system. Those from more protected backgrounds are probably the same way, because they never felt the full effects of the SMP/MMP they don’t see it as a problem worthy of what they are apt to call extreme measures. All of this makes it difficult to convince even those who should support a change culture to endorse the methods necessary to bring about change.
[I may include a part C here at some point if I can somehow collect my thoughts.]
33 responses to “Why Does My Boyfriend Pressure Me For Sex?”
>As this story indicates, men and women with very high MMVs are less affected by the present MMP/SMP.
This is an interesting point. Like most market shifts, the greatest impact is at the boundary line—in this case, between those who could get married, and those who couldn’t. The line is moving up.
Your story reminds me of something I observed shortly before leaving my old church. A couple in the college group got married in early summer and the following weekend when I saw them I realized that the young woman was pregnant. At least 2-3 months pregnant. She and her new husband had not only met at a Christan college, but he had studied to start on the road to being a pastor and both were obviously fervent Christians in all other matters. He had even been invited to speak to the college group on at least one occasion. Turns out that she was closer to 6-7 months pregnant, since the baby was born around 3 months after the wedding.
So yeah, the Christian girls aren’t necessarily going out and having sex with Bad Boys.
Now whether I would draw the conclusion that male virgins are rarer than female ones, I don’t know. I’m not sure I see evidence for that.
It is likely there are still more virgin males than virgin females, but not by choice. Most of the virgin males are InCels and would have sex if given the chance.
The Christian MMP is absolute horrendous for anyone below a “6” (AKA those average or below). Even 6-7s can have difficult at times finding attractive marriage partners. It’s really only the 8s, 9s, and 10s who have their pick of anyone and who have pretty much no trouble.
It doesn’t help that the church is feminized to the point that most of the men are biased towards the 6+. This is what creates such as huge disparity of unattractiveness as well IMO.
Oops, that last paragraph should say:
It doesn’t help that most men in the church are feminized to the point of being < 6 on the MMP attractiveness scale because of lack of masculinty, and most women in the church have a list or expectations for men where they think they deserve a 7-8+.
I think the same thing happens with the men who are looking at a woman's attractiveness, but the disparity is a bit less since men have more widely varying tastes in women.
What she couldn’t grasp is that women with Marriage Market Values close to average (either just above or just below) don’t have the kind of value to keep a man around if they won’t put out.
I was never really all that involved in the American Christian SMP (being a half-Japanese girl more attracted to Japanese men) but the impression I got from it was that most Christians consider virginity a negative quality, even if you are physically attractive. Being hot enough to keep a guy around just meant you’ll get labeled a cock-tease at best, a crazy manipulative bitch at worst. I mean, the Christian guy will still wanna date you, just he’ll make increasingly obnoxious sexual advances and generally act like an annoying jerk. So you dump him and find a different Christian boyfriend and thus the cycle repeats…
Turns out that she was closer to 6-7 months pregnant, since the baby was born around 3 months after the wedding.
I got married young, and A LOT of older Christian women kept trying to convince me not to go through with the wedding (despite claiming they supported early marriage and having married young themselves). I was often told “don’t get married because he got you pregnant you’ll regret it”! Back than I thought the women were just passive-aggressively accusing me of not being chaste, but perhaps their pleas were merely Freudian slips…?
I know this because I know men like this. Guys who aren’t even nominal Christians, but seem to take their faith seriously. Except when it comes to sex.
(Note: I am not talking about just Christian men, nor do I mean to sound anti-Christian) I find when an individual has an “exception” to sin, if you scrutinize their faith enough you’ll discover more exceptions elsewhere.
& I realize this train-of-thought may seem sanctimonious; but are devout Christians who don’t beleive in following the gospel and unrepentantly sin (such as your friend who picks up girls at bars for ONS’), actually Christians? I think “who are Christians” is an important issue the Christian blogosphere needs to start discussing. I know an awful lot of decent Millennials that gave up on the Christian faith due to negative experiences with “devout” Christians. It seems like every-few weeks a major news source publishes an article about Millennials abandoning the church in record numbers.
I suspect if we were to carefully weed out the fake-Christians from the authentic ones, we’d discover Christian men are mostly 4’s and 5’s in your chart.
Although to weed out authentic Christians you’ll probably have to make another chart. Or a questionnaire? (Question 1: Have you ever prayed to Satan? If so, how often?) 🙂
A clear and useful essay; Well done, sir.
It is appalling that so few women today seem to have any clear conception of male psychology.
We are viewed as beasts of burden or as defective women. And far too many men buy into the same narrative.
I suspect, though cannot prove, that they are far, far less common than men in category 3. The most important thing to understand is that the overwhelming majority of men fall into category 3.
I’d say the majority fall into category 2, actually. Far more than category 3, Donal. That was the way it looked in my day and people have grown more permissive in the church, not less.
I sense a great reluctance to face the reality that men are no more chaste than women on the main. Equal absence of opportunity to sin doesn’t mean a person is less sinful.
They don’t even want to be there in the first place, but the Marriage Market Place and Sexual Market Place are both basically existing in the same space.
And as long as Christians participate and allow them to exist in the same space, things are not going to get any better, but worse.
We must opt out, but given our propensity to nitpick and devour each other on every fine point of life and theology, there may not be a way for us to opt out in numbers significant enough to make an impact.
And our children will suffer either by being denied the opportunity to ever marry, or by sinning their way to the altar the way many of us did.
I was often told “don’t get married because he got you pregnant you’ll regret it”! Back than I thought the women were just passive-aggressively accusing me of not being chaste, but perhaps their pleas were merely Freudian slips…?
That I couldn’t say. I know in some ways it is a common assumption when women marry young that it’s because they’ve gotten pregnant. A comment related to that even popped up in the Twilight movies. (Don’t ask why I’ve seen them. I’ll just say I made a bad deal and leave it at that).
I know in the case I saw that they had been engaged for at least a year prior to marrying, so that wasn’t the reason. Perhaps they even made it to getting engaged without fornicating, but obviously didn’t make it from engaged to married without doing so.
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One amplification: if you (as a man) want a Godly marriage and you can think long term holding position 5 puts you in a position of strength. If you can hold frame even when she’s turned on and desirable until married, you take sex as a manipulator off the table. And you will not have the guilts, which lead to wimpdom.
[Ed: Good points here. Setting aside moral/religious considerations, this is good advice anyways from a practical perspective]
When I was younger I had huge difficulties with this, and still do. But if you scratch that itch, it gets bigger.
@ Drop it
Good observations. It used to be that only those at the very bottom, say 1s and 2s, were at the boundary line and didn’t do well. Now the line has moved up considerably.
Let me correct that slightly. The Christian girls aren’t necessarily going out and having sex onlywith Bad Boys.
Chastity has always been rare in men, and it is rare in women now that they have been given the freedom normally reserved for men.
That’s a fair enough correction.
I guess I’m inclined to agree with Deep Strength on the subject of male virginity. Lack of opportunity can keep someone a virgin. In regards to chastity though, I’d say it’s rare all around.
@ Deep Strength
I think you are right about the basic Christian MMP being bad for anyone under a six, but for chaste Christians it is worse. Even chaste Christian women who are 6’s and 7’s must compete with their slut sisters for male attention, and deal with demands for sex that result. In some respects chaste men have it even worse, as even male 8’s have difficulty finding a suitable partner (ie., a woman close to their MMV who is also chaste).
Could be both. Frankly, Church culture is so messed up these days you have a buffet available of possible reasons for sabotaging young Christians.
I would say no, and I implied in my comment that he really wasn’t for good reason. What I realize now is that he was a Churchian, not a Christian. And this applies to most nearly all of my “Christian” friends.
If a man acts like a Christian (ie., Fruit of the Spirit), then he should be in category 5, (or a celibate category 1). Anything else involves deliberate sin.
You are probably right Elspeth. These days, given all the rubbish out there about “Sexual Compatibility”, as well as men wanting to make sure that they aren’t marrying a “frigid whore” (Note to self: need to remember where I first fond that term), Category 2 is probably the more common. I will update the post accordingly.
“I got from it was that most Christians consider virginity a negative quality, even if you are physically attractive. Being hot enough to keep a guy around just meant you’ll get labeled a cock-tease at best, a crazy manipulative bitch at worst. I mean, the Christian guy will still wanna date you, just he’ll make increasingly obnoxious sexual advances and generally act like an annoying jerk.”
Those people are not Christians. Most people who are in church are likely not Christians, as Donal stated. As for Keeping Guys Around…. Most women generally do that, and are cock-teases or manipulative bitches. It’s hard for the outside observers to tell, and harder still for most young men to tell as they have no experience between chaste attraction and feeding off lustful energies given off by the young man that she is deliberately encouraging.
I don’t put up with that kind of non-sense, but I can tell the difference.
“Good Christian Men swim in the same sewer of modern culture that women do, and pick up the same messages about sex. And they are still men, with the corresponding male sex drive. While the female Rationalization Hamster is more active than the male version, men have a Hamster too. And sex is the one thing guaranteed to get the male Hamster spinning that wheel at full power. The truth is that only a handful of men have the discipline and the devotion to pursue a chaste life.”
Male Christian hamsters are the strangest thing I’ve ever seen.
Just last night me, my sponsor (a young man my age who has much of the… values of the red pill (fit, dress well, educated, honest/accurate opinion of the state of the world besides that of women) and a 35 year old masculine, militant traditionalist Catholic all went out for food, drinks, and manly discussion. At the end of it, my sponsor said he had to go, we said goodbyes, and then five minutes later he comes back and hangs out for another 30 minutes. When he starts to go again, I ask him why he came back. His answer?
“I was going to go talk to a cute redhead I saw, but then I saw her hug her boyfriend.”
This is a man I have never, EVER seen flirt with or initiate any sort of attraction building or bonding that could lead to a courtship process with a Catholic or Christian woman. Who admitted it took 6 months of attending Young Adult groups to think of them as a place to look for a wife, yet open to actively pursuing women outside of the church.
I’ve seen this with every Catholic between the ages of 18 and 30 that I’ve met who is single. It makes no sense to me. If your goal is to attain salvation – to raise a holy family – why would you do that? I brought it up to the other man after my sponsor left and he agreed, but wasn’t sure why the trend occurs.
I can only imagine that the Church, even within traditionalist circles, has taken the “Brothers and Sisters in Christ” a little to literally when one is searching for marriage.
As I told the other man, I mourn for all those involved. It is not a healthy practice for the individuals nor for the Church.
Let me make it ever simpler.
When I was in category 5/4 (middle school, through early college) I had no sex and no girlfriend. When I made the unintentional mental shift to category 2, I suddenly had both. Though, I am ex-Christian now, though at the time when it counted I was a lukewarm one.
Male chastity does exist, but it has a fast decaying half-life, that can be extended slightly with enough pressure. Grab it while you can, if you really want it, that is.
Elspeth: “I sense a great reluctance to face the reality that men are no more chaste than women on the main. Equal absence of opportunity to sin doesn’t mean a person is less sinful.”
No reluctance here, it’s exactly right. Rollo would call this making necessity A virtue (meaning, claim moral credit where you lack choice).
Because someone sins/ pushes for sex does not mean they don’t have faith. But I guess it’s easier to say this person or that person isn’t a Christain then deal w the fact you belong to a group of imperfect individuals
Yep. Self control is power.
If I may provide, if not an alternative explanation, an explanation with the benefit of a little more experience* dating girls, including especially “good Christian girls” (since I imagine many of the girls here think of themselves this way).
The most obvious reason a boyfriend would pressure his girlfriend for sex is that the dating relationship is an explicitly sexual relationship. The whole point is sex. So like, duh, of course. This isn’t even anything to do with “guys just always like sex,” which is true, it’s that even a guy who otherwise wishes to be chaste has a lot of incentives (besides the sex itself) to pressure his girlfriend, including (and almost certainly *especially*) if his girlfriend touts herself as a “good Christian girl.”
A guy who won’t pressure his girlfriend for sex will be perceived as less attractive to her. She will innately wonder what is wrong with him or else with her that he is not attracted to her or won’t act on that attraction. I hope I don’t need to explain why this is the case to the Game-initiated. Nor is it sufficient for a girl to understand this of herself. As I tend towards a negative answer concerning whether women can make themselves attracted to a guy (I don’t think I could make myself attracted to a girl, so prima facie…), the guy has to make an implicit cost-benefit analysis about whether he will pressure his girlfriend for sex. The more attractive she is, the more important it is that he make sure she is attracted *to him* in order that she won’t be swiped by another guy; throw in the fact that any guy who can assert his attractiveness in order to swipe her away is also likely a worse guy for her overall, and the “good Christian man” is left in this awkward catch-22.
1) Sleep with her, ensuring she is more likely to stay attracted
2) Don’t sleep with her, ensuring she is less likely to stay attracted
And, given our society where women (including “good Christian girls”) will not marry any man they don’t find attractive enough, it becomes the case (from a certain utilitarian perspective) that the Christian thing, i.e. to provide and protect this girl, which more likely includes (to the “good Christian man’s” perspective) her staying with *him*, is to sleep with her.
There are other reasons even a “good Christian man” may decide to pressure his girlfriend to sleep with him, but I think this is the most important one to understand, and I think the best response is that Christians should stop trying to appropriate dating to Christian ends. Dating is a purely secular paradigm for which the sexual element cannot essentially be removed; inasmuch as sex is removed from dating, it counts less as dating (entailing less commitment between the partners). A woman who is seriously interested in marriage should express this not to potential dating partners, but to her father or best proxy. Women only like dating as much as it resembles a marriage-like relationship, so if you want to actually get married, you should avoid dating.
*Experience: A number of long term relationships with “good Christian girls,” one of which lasted 4 years and who expressed far more attraction *after* we became sexually active and *less* when we ramped it down.
Thank you Bryce for another good take-down of the “dating system.” As Elsepth indicated earlier, Christians shouldn’t be involved in it at all. I’ve written on the subject in the past, but not from this perspective. I may update this post or create a follow-up integrating your thoughts and mine.
Leap wrote:This is a man I have never, EVER seen flirt with or initiate any sort of attraction building or bonding that could lead to a courtship process with a Catholic or Christian woman.
Apparently, your experience is different than mine. My experience is that you’re more likely to find a “good” Christian woman(Catholic or otherwise) at the bar than in church. It seems that people of both sexes disappear from church when they graduate college and don’t reappear until they are nearly engaged.
In the last seven years, across two churches, I’ve known of less than ten singles total ages 20-30. Now, I have never attended our new Catholic mega-church. I call it that because it’s packed to overflowing on Sunday mornings and I have no idea of the demographic breakdown. I did try out the local non-denominational mega-church several years ago and it seemed to fit all the redpill stereotypes; Sunday morning nightclub, filled to overflowing with desperate carousel riders and frivorcees.
Good post. I’m sending this to my older brother to read.
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@Bryce… “….even a guy who otherwise wishes to be chaste has a lot of incentives (besides the sex itself) to pressure his girlfriend, including (and almost certainly *especially*) if his girlfriend touts herself as a “good Christian girl….”
That’s a good view of this. The guy, even if he’s Christian, sees it as a challenge, especially if she’s a virgin.
Her being a “good Christian girl” is attractive to him. He may not be so “virginal” himself and may want to be her first. He may have fantasized about “introducing” her to the world of dating and sex, which many “good Christian” women AND men engage in.