Independence And Random Observations


Chad has provided us with an interesting tale from when he went dancing last:

All the single guys in our group figured the dancing that night was going to be a bunch of couples. We couldn’t have been much further from the truth. Some women had ‘dates’ whom I’m not even sure they went on a date with, but simply came to the dance with. I say this only because several of the women with ‘dates’ told me that they didn’t want to dance with anyone besides myself all night. Some of them in the same group of friends.

At a couple points I had women I’d never seen before approach me not to dance, but to introduce themselves as they were heading out the door, say they were sad I didn’t ask them, but that they wanted to give me their name and dance with me next weekend. Some women I’d known for weeks suddenly seemed more interested. While I can write a good deal of it off to V-Day, there were certainly both better looking men and better dancers out there.

So the whole thing was bizarre at first, until I realized that with my decision to pursue vocational possibility I’d altered my behavior. I’d talked and stopped caring as much about what I said, but just saying it and having fun. I’d avoided, purposefully, some of the women whom there’s more a lustful tension than a healthy tension in the dance. I’d talked about my faith and the writing at Depths to Wilderness with a couple of them. I’d taken some beginners, and showed them how to really follow and enjoy themselves out of a place where I didn’t care if we connected or not, I simply wanted them to have fun and I wanted to dance. Nothing more. I’ll admit that I did ask one girl’s number, but it was out of reflex. As soon as I asked, I realized she instantly could tell the difference, got lukewarm, and I avoided doing so any more.

Chad, by adopting an attitude of not caring what was going on around him, achieved what some folks call “outcome independence.” When a man achieves that state of mind, he seems to be above it all, at least, so far as women are concerned. They (women) find this highly attractive, and will be drawn to a man who can display it. I suspect that is because it is an attitude that normally manifests in men who are extraordinarily confident in themselves. Or otherwise stated, men with the highest levels of the Power attribute.

I bring this up because his story clued me in about some of my past experiences with women. One thing that always, always frustrated me is that I always seemed to receive far more attention (and more favorable attention) from women that I was not interested in than women who did interest me. This started in high school and continued through college and beyond. At the time, I didn’t understand. Later, after finding this part of the web, I briefly examined my past to try and solve this. My attempts to answer the question revolved around the fact that the women who interested me were Christian women, and the ones who didn’t interest me (yet were throwing IOIs at me, including ones I could pick up) were not Christian. I wondered whether Chuchian attitudes were to blame, but that didn’t seem quite right to me. So I just let it go.

Now I can see what my problem was: I was treating Christian women differently than non-Christian women. I was completely natural, completely myself when dealing with non-Christian women. I didn’t care what they thought of me, and it showed. [DG: In case I wasn’t clear- this isn’t about “being yourself”. It is about not caring what women think of you.] As a result, I demonstrated outcome independence towards them, and they found it attractive. On the other hand, for Christian women I was on my best behavior- I was every bit the “nice Church boy” that I was raised to act like. In short, a Beta White Knight who put women on a pedestal. And it showed. And it drove those women, women who I considered marriageable, away from me.

Since then, I have taken women off of my pedestal, and placed God there, where He belongs. But the temptation to replace them there still lingers within me. Part of me wonders if this is a problem that all men have faced from very beginning. The best defense against this, I should think, would be a good offense- adopt an attitude towards women that is playful and teasing, one that resists placing them on a pedestal.


Below are a few other things that caught my attention recently:

Here is a great comment by JDG delving into feminism and its incompatibility with Christianity.

Reader Don R. has clued me in to a great quote by Thomas Sowell:

“When people get used to preferential treatment, equal treatment seems like discrimination.”

This applies just as well to relations between the sexes as it does between the races, I should think. Women have received boosts for so long they are apt to shriek if one mentions leveling the playing field (for example, by aiming for equal college admissions).

Also, Joseph of Jackson is back.

This comment at JustFourGuys is one that I found fascinating. The ideas that it broaches bear further examining at some point.


Lastly, here are some of the search terms people have used to find my blog lately, along with some commentary:

are men with power and status attracted to women who are attracted to power and status?

Yup. Since all women are attracted to power and status, by definition men with power and status are attracted to such women.

what are women attracted to some men and not attracted to other men?

Well, you might need to go elsewhere to improve your English, but I can at least answer the question. See here.

christian marriage is the same as secular marriage?

Sadly, this is often the case. It is not supposed to be, of course. But nowadays its hard to tell secular and Christian marriages apart.

my boyfriend and i are chrisitans – no sex until marriage but he booked us a hotel room

Ok, clearly the lady who asked this needs to read this post. Then leave him, and start courting, not dating.

how do i know what i rate on a scale of 1-10

There were a few of these. My advice is to consult a male friend who will be brutally honest with you. Actually, several, just to even things out.

And that does it for this random post. Thanks for sticking through it everyone. I may update it over the week if I find anything else interesting, as I suspect my posting will be light until then.


Filed under Attraction, Christianity, Feminism, Men, Red Pill, Women

12 responses to “Independence And Random Observations

  1. It was an interesting night of dancing. Not V-day, but the night after. I usually get a decent amount of attention, appreciation, and respect from the women; but it is always something I had to earn or work for… no, create. Thats the word I want. I spend time creating the attention, appreciation, and respect. This last Saturday I had it without trying, no great ‘mental gymnastics,’ tricks, or conscious change of behavior. The only difference was a simple acceptance of a life without a wife, should God chose it.

    If I didn’t know what was going on, and experienced the same thing from game’s standard (and opposite) denial of reality while imposing your own frame upon a situation, I would have been absolutely baffled by the whole thing.

  2. deti

    “This comment at JustFourGuys is one that I found fascinating. The ideas that it broaches bear further examining at some point.”

    Which comment? The Jezebel article disputing the economics of sex? Or the VioletBlue article talking about the disparities between men and women in online dating?

  3. @ Deti

    Sorry, bad link there. Fixed it

  4. Gee, you get thoughtful queries leading to your blog. Mine are always ones like, “Why is my husband an idiot?” “Can a man tell if I’m not a virgin?” and lots and lots of bizarre sexual search terms from people obviously looking for teh pr0n. I can’t look at humanity quite the same way now that I’ve had a blog and have seen what real, actual people are typing into search engines. 🙂

  5. Oh, I get those too Sunshine. Stuff like “girlfriend pit me in chasaty and goes out with a man” and “man the push for sex before a women is read.” As for sexual search terms, well, I’ve gotten stuff about virginity and its loss, and well, my Going APE post has led some very… interesting searches to my blog.

    Although in all honesty at least 80% of the searches to my blog concern what women find attractive in men. Maybe 90%.

  6. Farm Boy

    With respect to the people “out there”, it often seems that they are deliberately trying to be dumb. Alas, this is probably not the case; probably it is that the negative consequences have been removed for lack of intelligence.

  7. Augustina

    “just be yourself.” Isn’t that what women have been trying to tell you guys?

  8. I guess I wasn’t clear enough in the OP, sorry about that. Its more than just being yourself Augustina. Its about not caring. The advice commonly given of “being yourself” is not matched with not caring, because part of being yourself is caring about what women think of you. At least, for the women you care about.

  9. Random Angeleno

    As a decent salsa dancer, I can definitely recommend partner dancing. Doesn’t have to be salsa, it could be swing, country or ballroom, whatever music you like. As long as it’s partner dancing where the man takes hold of the woman and leads her where he wants her to go. This represents an excellent opportunity to work on your non-verbal body language for those of us not gifted with charm or charisma. You get to exercise leadership in action. You get to fill in that time with different dance partners without having to fill the air with talk and having the non-verbal part down leads to a fair number of women liking to dance with you even if you aren’t very sociable otherwise. Internalizing the outcome independence mindset is a huge part of that. Also means eventually you’ll be confident enough to give gentle negs to women who don’t follow well because you know how the dance is supposed to go and what she’s supposed to do, in which case you can direct her with confidence. Or maybe she is a beginner, in which case you can take a moment to show her how to step or turn. I made it a point to learn a few of the women’s steps and turns so I can show the beginners. Again with confidence. Another decent side effect is that most women who go to dances tend to be less heavy than the average woman and they tend to like following the lead. So be the leader!

    That mindset is very difficult for most men to cultivate, but you’ll know it when it’s working. I can say for me that it begins with turning your worries over to the Lord and being grateful to Him for the blessings you already have. I’ve had a few recent nights when I decided it was time to go home and women stopped me on my way out the door to get me to dance another song with them. Another night when getting a girl’s phone number before I left was easy. But took me a few years of learning to dance and working the mindset to get there. Meaning it takes work on your part …

  10. Augustina

    Yes, but once you don’t, care, you will act like yourself. When you are attracted to someone, a shy and introverted person often clams up, or gets stiff and formal, or tries too hard, or whatever. Natural extroverts and confident people don’t have this problem. The not caring just leads to more confidence and acting naturally.

    The Donal who gets IOI,so from women he is not interested in is still the same decent guy who strikes out with girls he is interested in. It,so not like you turn into a foul mouthed jerk when you don’t care. If “not caring” is what it takes to loosen up, then by all means go right ahead. It’s about having the right frame of mind, I suppose.

  11. @ Augustina

    You are right, it is about having the right frame of mind. Back in the day (this was all in the past) I was the “try too hard” type. In part, because I was trained to be. The thing is, if guys were told just to be themselves, that wouldn’t necessarily be bad advice at all. But they are also told other things, like “be nice” and “treat her like a dignified lady”. That advice puts women you like on a pedestal in your mind, which completely disrupts the proper frame.

  12. Pingback: Don’t Kiss Ass. Kick Ass Instead. | The Society of Phineas

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