Honor and Faith and the Red Pill

[A shorter post today. Working on something longer which I hope to upload tomorrow.]

It has been well over a year since I first took the “Red Pill”, and opened my eyes to the true nature of men and women. During that time I’ve learned a lot, and unlearned a whole lot more. I’ve changed a lot of my life around, and despite being more aware of how dark my future is likely to be, I can confidently say that I’m better off than I was beforehand. However, one thing that I have yet to do is really broach the Red Pill and the subjects around it with my family, especially my parents.

I know that I must at some point, but I keep putting off this confrontation. And a confrontation it will be, because both of my parents are very much invested in what some call “Blue Pill” thinking. Both are also what you could call Churchians, although we Catholics often call them “cafeteria Catholics” instead. Informing them of what I have learned, and the life I intend to live will put me in direct opposition to them. And this is where I am uncertain what to do. I am called to honor my mother and my father (this message is one of the most frequent throughout scripture), and I am not sure how to do that while still introducing them to the Red Pill. It will necessarily require that I point out their hypocrisy, their ignorance and other flaws in their character, if only indirectly. Frankly, I know my parents and I am sure that it will hurt them to some degree. So I hesitate. And yet, I keep in mind these words of Jesus:

34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s foes will be those of his own household. 37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.

So I guess the purpose of this post is to solicit advice for how to explain the “Red Pill” to one’s parents, while still showing them the respect and honor they deserve.

Also, I have been thinking of talking with one of the priests at my parish (the Pastor actually) concerning the Red Pill. He is a very down-to-earth kind of guy, and I suspect probably is already aware of some of it. Plus he never struck me as inclined towards the feminist streak which sadly manifests itself in a lot of priests these days. Does anyone have any advice on how to broach the topic with a pastor/priest? I know that several of my readers have discussed some aspects of the Red Pill with Christian leaders before, so I would like their advice on the matter. I’m asking because I have been thinking of getting involved or creating a ministry for young men at my church, and the Red Pill will be part of it. Which means that I need him to understand and support what I am doing. Any advice here would be appreciated.

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43 Comments

Filed under Blue Pill, Christianity, Churchianity, Marriage, Red Pill, The Church

43 responses to “Honor and Faith and the Red Pill

  1. Honestly?
    Grown men don’t have to explain their lifestyle choices to their parents. You’re not under their authority, as a child would be.
    If you feel the need to engage though, you can start with something as simple as…..”Y’know….Mom….Dad….dating and marriage just isn’t what it used to be. I’m trying to find my way in the new marketplace based on the values I have now.”
    Any reasonable parent can respect that, even if they don’t fully understand it.

  2. I’m starting to slowly drip in things.

    I’ve talked to my mom about the nagging she does to my dad, and while she did get extremely defensive I *think* I got through at least somewhat because she did end up apologizing.

    The one thing I’m talking about with a woman I’m getting to know is responsibility. Why is a wife unhappy? It’s usually because she is assuming (or usurping) the leadership role from her husband, and the responsibility that comes with the leadership role also will fall on her. Women tend to not be natural leaders, and don’t want the weight of responsibility on them. Therefore, if you can reveal this to your mother that this is what is making them unhappy, they are more likely to step back and allow their husbands to make decisions.

    This is probably the approach I am going to use in the future, because it cuts to the heart of a woman’s unhappiness. She is attempting to take the weight of leadership onto herself and the responsibility that entails, and therefore she will make herself unhappy. Instead, trust her husband to make the right decision. That doesn’t mean she can’t throw in input because most husband will value that input. But if she wants things done her way then she has to be willing to accept the responsibility and ensuing unhappiness that she will have from making those decisions.

    I’m also probably going to use the submission examples in my post that I told you about sooner or later as well.

  3. I’ll be honest – my parents are the ones I simply just live around and let my ideas go through that way. I don’t hide my opinions, nor do I make a point of stating them whenever I see my family or talk to them on the phone. Doing so seems dishonest and that you have an ‘agenda’ that may or may not be in your parents own interests as much as it is you desiring a pressure release valve on all the changes you’ve made in your life that you are stressing they’ll reject. Or that you’ll have to hide in order to avoid that rejection.

    Live, laugh, love. Let them see what you have gained and your new found strength so that they can judge your changes by the fruits they have gained you.

  4. This is going to sound like a smartypants question, but it’s not meant to be. What does “red pill” have to do with how your parents practice their faith? Is it that they’re C&E types? Or that they don’t observe the penitential seasons? Or don’t go to confession? I guess I’m not sure what it is you want them to know.

  5. @ RPSMF

    Your suggested approach is similar to what I have planned out. Also, while it is true that I don’t have to explain myself, they are bound to ask why I have made the choices that I have. I can always refuse to answer, but that seems rather disrespectful to me.

  6. @ Deep Strength

    I’ve introduced a few ideas to my father, although nothing too terribly direct. Mostly the more scientific bits of information that Rollo likes to discuss from time to time.

    @ Leap

    That has sort of been my approach thus far, but I suspect my family dynamics are different from yours. So we’ll see how it turns out.

  7. @ Maeve

    That is a good question. I guess you could say that the Red Pill ties in indirectly, not directly. The tie-in between them centers mostly around marriage, and what I am looking for in a wife. Plus my desire for a biblical marriage, including concepts such as headship and submission. They are Egalitarians, and my beliefs are much more Orthodox/Traditional than theirs. In fact, they have expressed out loud sentiments which seem to disfavor those views.

    You will need to explain C&E to me, I’m not familiar with that abbreviation. They do observe the seasons, although not with as much rigor as perhaps they should.

  8. “That has sort of been my approach thus far, but I suspect my family dynamics are different from yours. ”

    Probably. When my parents divorced I started rebelling against my stereotypical baby-boomer father and was the co-dependent rock my mother built herself upon. Now my father and I hone each other and I’ve drug my liberal mother further right while throwing off the burdens she placed on me.

    If you come from a Catholic family, I doubt you have that.

    Of course, I’d still recommend it. Is there any reason in particular you’re itching to let more truth flood out of you? I understand and would encourage you to speak up against extreme circumstances, but am unsure anything but a natural absorption of the red pill is possible. I haven’t seen any proof otherwise.

  9. It is not that I am itching to let the truth out Leap, it is just that I know its going to come up at some point. And I am trying to discern if I should deal with it when it happens, or preemptively address it.

  10. I have doubts as to whether my own parents, nor my inlaws, are either capable of or interested in confronting beliefs at their stages of life. They are all retired now.

    Only the variety of relationship toxicity varies.

    I correct error where it occurs, but beyond that i hesitate to tread. Father in law refers to mil as the boss, a term that irks me. He referred to my own wife the same way, but said nothing when i calmly corrected him.

  11. Taylor

    Explain it grounded in the Word. Don’t elaborate on everything that’s changed in your thinking, because honestly, it isn’t all dinner table or armchair conversation. “Hi Mom and Dad, I’ve had an epiphany in the last year and learned basically everything I’ve been taught and believed about women was wrong! I found out feminists are actually acting against their own best interest and find knowing complicit partners in Beta males. In today’s society, manly men are the oppressed class and scriptural teachings haven’t been taught right by enough to have sticking power.”

    “That’s nice, Jimmy. Pass the tea.”

    I try to be as up front as I can be in explanation for my actions from red pill thinking. I don’t venture out random manosphere asides unless its germane to the discussion (say, a news story about health insurance and women). I don’t really think a respectful son needs to broach anything heavy out of intellectual need. Simply be yourself in ALL areas and let the dice fall where they may. If anybody gets personally affronted, as a Christian, you’re basically called to bring honor and drop it immediately.

  12. LOL Donal – C&E = those folks who only go to mass twice a year – Christmas & Easter. I made a smart comment one Easter about being annoyed that we couldn’t find a place to park or sit because of the C&Es – was the only I can ever recall my father telling me he was disappointed in me.
    I’m curious as to what is motivating this need to confront (not really the word I’m looking for) your parents with your perspective on marriage. But I’m more curious as to what you’re looking to discuss with your priest or what you want him to do with it.

    Maybe my cupcake’s a little light on the frosting, but am I missing something?

  13. @ Maeve

    As I explained to Leap, it isn’t that I need to confront my parents. My post is based on a concern that at some point this will come up on its own, and I’m trying to figure out if I should bring it up before hand.

  14. Donal – sorry – my phone only let me see your reply. My own 2-cents would be “no” – there’s no need to launch a pre-emptive strike. Things will come up as they come up – and you can respond in kind.

  15. Because my own mother encouraged my wifes rebellion I divorced her also. The red pill is bitter, but it had to be done. Although I am a bit more lonely right now, it will be better in the future.

  16. Deti

    I’m not sure you’d need to say much of anything to your parents other than what RPSMF set out. As for talking with your parish priest , remember Joseph of Jackson’s experience. Though I doubt there’ll be a repeat of that since you won’t be in a Protestant context.

  17. CS

    Donal,

    I too have thought about how I would broach this topic with my parents once I find a husband, particularly with my mom. Though my dad has a tendency to be blue pill when it comes to her, he had a fairly red pill upbringing and I trust he would be receptive to a husband’s and wife’s complementary/hierarchal roles in a Christian marriage.

    At some point in the past, the topic of SAHMs came up between my mom and I and she chafed at the idea of a woman being completely dependent on her husband in any form or fashion, especially concerning finances. She said things along the lines of “What self-respecting woman in her right mind would allow herself to be in a position where she had to depend on her man to receive money for necessities such as her feminine products? That’s shameful. What if he divorces her? How will she support herself with no regular income of her own at that point? What if she doesn’t have family to fall back on?” Stuff along those lines. I was surprised she never threw in the “abuse excuse.”

    So yeah, it would be a matter of explaining my position in a way that is still respectful to them and especially her. Though I have been blessed to have a very stable family and parents in general, my mom and I both have a tendency to be fairly stubborn and unmoving when we feel strongly about certain things so at least from my side, I know I should definitely pray for patience and understanding before engaging with her.

    I’m curious to see other suggestions regarding this topic.

  18. Hide it in plain sight. Like a conversion…your parents will see the same kid but know you have a different way of thinking.

    I didn’t sit down with mom and dad and explain this thing called the Manosphere on the internets and how guys from different experiences discuss how things are perceived and how things really are….and that one day I decided to swallow this thing called the red pill because not only did I experience it…I was fed the same lies.

    If it is a part of your personality now…it will just come out when you hear things in conversations.

    I will say telling the truth is a funny thing…half the time they love it, the other half they think you are bitter.

  19. If you keep an amused frame of laughing at the world you usually avoid the accusations of bitter in my experience. Which opens you right up to other claims of misogyny and other remarks.

    Just keep laughing it off, joking, and hold frame

  20. About churchians. I say this. Since they do not produce the fruits of the spirit. They probably don’t have the spirit of god at all and is in danger of hellfire. Truly unless they are born again they cannot see the kingdom of god.

  21. Question:
    Have they been pressuring you for grandchildren, or do you anticipate that they will?
    Because if that’s the case, I can see your dilemma a little more clearly. If they’re expecting a traditional family thing, and you go another way because of Red Pill truths, yikes.

  22. @ Rpsmf

    Actually, they haven’t been pressing me, which frankly I find rather odd given my family’s overall situation. Not sure that they will, they do tend to give me a lot of leeway (more than some parents, anyways). Honestly, I’m not sure what they are expecting of me at this point.

  23. I recently had a relatively long conversation with my dad regarding all this.

    It’s hard. One doesn’t want to rock the boat in someone else’s marriage (particularly one’s parents), nor do you want to come close to insinuating that your dad is beta—and yet when you describe what you’re looking for, and it’s obviously different from your parents, well, there it is.

    I don’t have an answer. I can come up with easy brushoffs—“I’m just looking for someone as amazing as you, Mom!” but an actual full explanation is more than anyone is bargaining for. I mean, you have a whole blog’s worth of the stuff.

    One thing that you can play up, though—and I noticed you came up with it too—was the focus on honoring one’s parents. I’ve made a special effort on that over the last year whenever I see my folks.

    1 Peter 3:2 may not just be about wives and husbands.

  24. Parents, I think, are more concerned with results than words (like everyone else). So however you arrive at a stable family, they’re not going to care. Married son + babies = win. Son who gives them reasons they’re not going to get grandbabies = lose. You seem to want a wife and babies, no matter how pessimistic you are about the chances thereof… so focus on that, and get on with the rest of life. How many of your aged sons are even *thinking* about marriage at all? You’re totally bragworthy as a son, you know?

    Of course this plays out over a lifetime, not insurance against intermittent nosiness and telling you how to run your life. (They’re parents, it’s hardwired). They’re supposed to try to get you to do things their way, that’s normal. Do things your way, so long as it’s God’s way too. Don’t worry so much. A virtuous son is a blessing, they’ll get over momentary upsets.

    I’m 41yo and my mom is still waiting for me to get a career. /shrug. Doesn’t come up much, and neither of us fusses about it.

  25. mdavid444444

    I really hesitate to reply to this; it’s difficult to explain myself and I don’t wish to be misunderstood. But I’ll give it a go.

    I don’t think one can “honor” one’s parents by being less-than-truthful at the same time. I believe your first instinct of crisis is probably correct: if one serves God truthfully, he will often have issues with others. And yes, often with his earthly father and mother.

    I think it’s very easy to be too accepting of the current culture. It’s drenched in sin, and the structures of sin, without much repentance (if any). It will die on its feet: feminism and materialism have done it in. Opposition to the “red pill”? It’s otherwise known as feminism. And yes, that’s just plain old fashioned evil, the denial of natural law, the rejection of God’s way, all dressed up for modern times.

    It’s certainly not dishonoring one’s parents to speak and live out the truth. If anything, it’s dishonoring them to pretend there is no moral division. It’s easy to forget: what is whispered in the dark today will eventually be shouted from the rooftops. Many, many parents will someday cry out like the rich man in the Lazareth parable “Why didn’t somebody tell me?” You don’t want to be that somebody, especially with your own parents. Most father’s I know have a right to be honored…by their sons telling them they are in grave error.

    I know I probably sound crazy. Sorry. I used to be far more relaxed about things before I became a parent. Now, not a day passes as a parent that I shake my head and have less and less tolerance of parents, especially my own. One’s first honor belongs to our heavenly father, and only secondly to one’s natural father. Honor? It cannot include acceptance of bad ideas and behavior. At best, respectful silence after relaying the truth.

  26. lauratheringmistress

    Children make different choices than their parents. My husband and I very different Catholics than our parents are. We’re making different choices in our child-rearing. Unless it comes up, don’t worry about it. Then be prepared with a simple answer about how you’ve found what is working for you and believe it is the best way to find happiness.

    Then drip. Believe it or not, pedagogy is a better place to start than the dating market when explaining red pill ideas. There’s plenty of interesting research on sex differences in learning. It doesn’t hit neuralgic points early on. It creeps past the sleeping dragons.

    C.S. Lewis made an interesting point about that passage you quoted. It’s about who comes first when a choice must be made. Are you prepared to love God more than your parents? And then, does loving God require you to interfere in their marriage? Those are probably good questions to consider. Unless you’re feeling called to preach the return of patriarchy in the public square, keep it in the sphere that matters, the search for a like-minded wife and pursuit of holiness.

    Although if you feel called to fix the Catholic Church’s marriage prep program, be my guest. The stories I could tell you would freeze your heart.

  27. Are you prepared to love God more than your parents?

    A. If they propose living apart, not seeking other partners, that is their choice.
    B. If they propose divorce, then i didnt hold back.

    We can respect their choices, but unless their actions clearly contradict scripture, it is their choice. Anything else risks passive aggressive codependence.

    Man, i dislike family get togethers.

  28. Ev

    Respectfully, if you want to honor your parents, then do not foolishly point out their hypocrisy, their ignorance and other flaws in their characters. Why create a rift where there is none or widen one that already exists? “If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men (Rom. 12:18).

    Take time to read St. John Chrysostom’s Homily XXXV on the passage from Matthew 10 quoted above. The tl;dr version is that dissension arises not by God’s will or doing (despite the phrasing which Chrysostom says is “the custom of the Scripture”) but by the mere fact that unbelievers do not assent to the truth: “The war is not then the effect of His purpose, but of their temper.”

    So live the truth you have discovered. Just live it. Your parents will see that it works. They may ask questions. If they do, answer only as much as is necessary to satisfy their curiosity. If your parents find fault with you for being more traditional than they are, fine. That’s their problem. But don’t confront them.

    As for talking with your priest, print a few well-chosen representative posts from different blogs and ask his opinion about how they square with Church teaching and his pastoral experience. That should be sufficient to broach the topic and get him up to speed on the jargon.

  29. Elspeth

    I think you should probably not encase any of it the language of the so-called “red pill” In your discussion if you feel you *must* have one. You just don’t want to do that, nor do you have to. I’ve mentioned may times that much of what is called “red pill” are truisms I was exposed to from my childhood, and that was a long time ago. Truth is never new.

    As opportunities present themselves to counter their misconceptions, do so honestly, but be careful about branding your parents hypocrites. I cringed when I read that. Hypocrisy is an intentional attempt to paint a false picture. If your parents truly believe those things that ultimately turned out not be true, then they are not hypocrites, just deceived.

    My stepmother, a really great person on the main, is fairly feminist in her thinking. She didn’t agree with it when my husband wanted me at home, she was not happy with me when we got pregnant with babies 4 and 5, and she’s fairly skeptical of this homeschooling scheme.

    We still get along despite our disagreement. I give her the respect she is due, and she respects my husband’s authority to run his house as he sees fit.

    The best way to handle parents as an adult is to live righteously and honorably, in line with your convictions, and have discussions when they are warranted. Always treat them with the honor and respect Scripture requires.

    I could be wrong, but I’m not sure why there needs to be a big discussion of some sort. As you spend time with them and conversations develop, be truthful and see where it leads.

  30. Ton

    Explaining yourself is beta.

  31. I don’t understand why you’d need to talk of the red pill. My parents are conservative Christians (so they’re already somewhat purple-pillish in relation to submission), but not red pill and I feel no need to “come out of the closet” so to speak. Just be yourself, voice your opinions when it comes out, and let things flow naturally. There’s no need to go looking for trouble.

    For example, a couple my parents were close to divorced. I was talking of this with my mom and she wondered why the children of the divorced couple didn’t want to see their mother. I said I wouldn’t want to see my mother if she divorced my father. She said “you’d really stop visiting me?” and I told her if she divorced dad I’d would no longer visit or spend time with her. I didn’t go looking for this, but it came up.

    Other things I’ve discussed with my parents include “there’s no such thing as rape in marriage”, the wife should submit to the husband, I’ll only marry a girl who met my requirements, how marriage is a raw deal for men, and how I might never get married. None of these are things I planned for, or picked; I just went with the conversational flow and didn’t hide what I believed.

    Don’t bother pre-empting. Just go with the flow. If a red pill belief would naturally be a part of the conversation, speak it. If asked answer honestly.

  32. Aquinas Dad

    Part of honoring our parents must include a true concern for their souls. If you believe they are in danger of their immortal souls then you must address this with them with respect and caritas.
    As for your own intentions about a wife – enlist their aid! Be direct and honest – you are growing more devout and traditional in your faith and you are looking for a similarly devout, traditional woman to build a family.
    And here is the trick – ask them to help.
    Why do I call it a trick? Because parents *want* to help. This gives them a reason to ask about your beliefs, desires, and needs in a non-confrontational way; it gives you a reason to explain yourself in a non-confrontational way. It stresses the nature of family (mutual love and assistance) and will allow all of you, if you are lucky, to learn and grow in love with and among each other. They will see your growth in faith as something building your relationship with them, not as something that threatens it. Likewise, this will allow them to see a traditional, devout wife as something that will grow the family and strengthen it, not as someone ‘taking you away’.
    Take a similar tack with your priest: explain that you are called to a more traditional, devout faith. Ask him for help with your prayer life, with more traditional devotions. Ask about Consecration to the Sacred Heart, the brown scapular, and other devotions. Ask him to bless your home/apartment and your sacramentals.
    During this time also tell him (as above) how you are seeking a devout, traditional wife.
    All of these show what you are doing for what it truly is: seeking to follow God’s laws. Enlisting the aid of your family and your priest by humbly asking for it you can let them know what is in your heart in a manner based in caritas and allow all of you to grow together.
    Thoughts?

  33. Cautiously Pessimistic

    Honoring your parents is distinct from obeying them or agreeing with them. In my own case, I don’t see any benefit in confronting my parents over our differences (and they are many and severe). To the extent they insist on confronting me (over politics, mainly) I will give cursory responses, but they tire themselves out eventually, and we move on to things I’ll actually respond to with converstation.

  34. Thank you for your responses everyone. Since I may not have made it clear before, I will try and do so now:

    It is not my wish to confront my parents, least of all with any of this. Rather, I suspect that it is more likely that they will confront me at some point, especially over what I am looking for in a wife. While I could refuse to explain, that would seem rude and disrespectful to me. So I am trying to figure out the most respectful method of dealing with this situation.

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  36. I introduced red-pill thinking to my parents by acting the part. When mom made a request, I ignored it. Dad would ask the same thing, I’d “yes sir” right away. Mom got into one of her attitudes, I’d agree and amplify, neg her, and generally put her in her place – in front of her husband. She’d tell me one of her useless bits of information about something I have no interest in, I’d tell her up front, or leave – and thus deprive her of my presence. Dad saw what I was doing, that it was having a positive effect, and has started to do what I do. While Dad’s still a beta-nice-guy with all that that entails, I have hope he’ll get his woman back on the reservation as it were, and find his inner Game-master.

    We all went out for lunch not too long ago, and at one point the conversation got to marriage market, contemporary society, divorce rape, and the like, so that’s how I introduced them to today’s red-pill reality.

    I don’t think there’s a need to confront them about what they’re doing wrong – just being who you are will eventually pique their curiosity and they’ll ask what’s going on.

    The previous suggestions about posing the matter as a “what do you think of this” is also very good, and well worth considering.

  37. jack

    My parents are 70.

    They have had – initially – a hard time believing it is as bad as I tell them.

    But I just kept pushing the stories and anecdotes until they relented and started to listen.

    I am a one-man live manosphere billboard. I am red pill any time, all the time (except when at work, because female HR).

    I care nothing for social approval and worry nothing about social repercussions. I care too much about promoting the truth to remain silent, even if someone will only hear 1% of it.

    Mostly this is because I have given up on a fulfilling marriage, and want to see other men avoid my fate, and the fate of the many divorced men I know.

    And, in a typically unChristian fashion, anything I can do to bring emotional pain to an unrepentant slut is worth crawling through fire for.

    Just once, before I die, I would like to see such a woman curl up in a sobbing ball of humiliation and remorse.

    Gee, jack, you sound kinda bitter…

    Oh yeah, I know. Do I really mean that? Well, sometimes I do. I guess it depends of how unrepentant she is. I will be as gentle as possible with anyone who is on the track to repentance.

    But an unrepentant fornicator, and especially a Christian unrepentant fornicator, draws my full attention. And, right or wrong (prob wrong) I would definitely not shrink from doing whatever was in my power to make her feel like, well, crap.

    The pride and feminism-inspired attitude of defiance in many trampy Christian women requires this kind of stringent measures in order to crack through the belligerent shell. Sometimes, ya gotta make a wh–e cry.

  38. jack

    Donal-

    Look at it this way, they will always be your mother and father, but once you are an adult, they are no longer your “parents”.

    I feel only limited obligation to live up their obligations. To the extent their obligations align with my Christian principles, well, no problem.

    They did not like hearing about the red pill at first, but they have finally accepted that I’m not lying to them about the way the world works now.

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  40. Here’s a great piece by a solid Catholic priest which perfectly explains what you want.

    http://www.sensustraditionis.org/ParentalRolesLeadership.pdf

  41. Here’s a piece by a solid Catholic priest which sums things up really well from the perspective of authority. He even says that there are natural reasons that prove this, but he addresses It from the supernatural reasons and biblical evidence.

    http://www.sensustraditionis.org/ParentalRolesLeadership.pdf

  42. Abbey, thank you for that link. I’m only half-way finished and it is already impressing me greatly.

  43. No problem. Those traditional FSSP And SSPX priests have seriously held on to the truth in the face of modernism.

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