It’s Not The Fall That Kills You…

…but the sudden Stop at the bottom.

Playing Dominoes

Ace of Spades over at 80-Proof Oinomancy has written a couple of posts concerning “the Decline.” In the first post, titled The day has come, the day has come,” Ace explains how he views the subject of the Decline:

All this talk of “the decline” is laughable.

It has already collapsed.

Who goes to church NOW?

Who has an intact family NOW?

Who has a well-paying, secure job NOW?

Precious few.

Our institutions have ALREADY failed and fallen.

Everything you are witnessing now is merely pocket-groups trying to make sense of the chaos.

In his next post, “When all the while, a pontiff smiles” Ace provides a metaphor for the situation:

Empires and civilizations do not fall like stones.

They fall like dominoes, neatly arrayed.

It’s called “the cascade effect”.

And you’re simply in the center of cascade.

You, as they say, “can’t see the forest through the trees”.

Which is the entire point of my work here.

When I read this I realized that Ace and I have been on parallel tracks when it comes to our mental approach to the current “crisis.” Many people seem to expect that there will be some kind of “collapse”, or catastrophic event which marks “the Decline,” or perhaps its culmination. This is proceeded usually by a period of free-fall which may be what most think of in terms of “the Decline.”

Instead Ace provides us with an analogy which highlights that the Decline is a series of discrete events, each of which when triggered will fall and potentially trigger another event. The sheer complexity of the situation is too much for a single line of dominoes, instead we are talking about lines and lines of dominoes, linking around and intermixing with one another, all connected by a myriad of pathways. So even a few dominoes being toppled will quickly lead to line after line being set into motion; before long matters will quickly spiral out of control. Everything will topple. Here is an apt visualization of the process:

Understand that dominoes are falling around us all the time , and each moment we are only able to observe a few of them. Hence Ace’s statement about how we “can’t see the forest through the trees.” Many people, when they see a domino fall, think its a big deal. But they fail to realize that other dominoes fell at the same time which we didn’t see. Most fail to realize that other dominoes had to fall in order for this latest domino to topple. And they fail to realize that yet more dominoes will be toppled as a result of this latest domino falling.  Only when we examine the totality of the circumstances do we begin to understand the scale of the game.

Now, some people are trying to pick the dominoes up and place them upright again and to line them up as before. Whether this is even possible or not at this point is a major issue of contention in certain segments of the manosphere. That debate is outside the scope of this post, although I hope to address it later.

The analogy of the “Collapse” or “Fall”

I think a more common visualization that people use when trying to understand our current predicament is to imagine our civilization as a car hurtling towards a cliff. The “Decline” is considered the point where the car has hurtled off the cliff, and is spiraling towards the ground, and the “Collapse” represents the final crash or Stop at the bottom. While this has merit as an analogy, most folks are probably using a picture which is too simplistic to accurately capture the nature of the situation. I’ve created a few crude pictures of some different takes on this analogy to try and help people visualize what I am talking about. Here is what most people are likely imagining the situation is like:

Simple explanation of The FallTo provide something of a legend for this, A represents the “path” leading towards the cliff, B. C represents the “Fall” between the Cliff, B, and the bottom, D (which I will refer to in the future as “The Stop”).

As I said earlier, I imagine that most people will be using a mental model much like this. The principal debate this model engenders is whether  we (we being the West generally, and the USA specifically) are still at A, have reached B, or are somewhere in the process of C. I think it safe to assume that most everyone realizes we have yet to reach the Stop at the bottom yet. The principal relevance of our current position is that it determines if anything can be done; after all, once we hit the cliff at B we are no longer in control.

However, this model leaves much to be desired. A slightly more advanced version might look something like this:

Advanced explanation of The FallThe legend for this model is slightly different. A represents the “safe” path, or a road which can be traveled safely without fear of necessarily going downhill. Of course, one can be heading towards the downhill section, B, without having reached it yet. C represents the Cliff, and D is the long Fall towards the Stop at the bottom, E. This model incorporates, somewhat, the domino effect which Ace mentions. Section B, “downhill”, is illustrative of a situation where once you find yourself there, matters will invariably get worse and worse, even without active effort to do so. This would be like the dominoes falling in a line, moving the “car” ever closer towards the cliff. However, because the “car” is still on solid ground, it is possible to reverse the situation, that is, “re-stack” the dominoes and place them upright once again. Once you hit the cliff at C this is no longer possible, everything is in free fall.

But even that model has serious problems when it comes to conveying the situation we face. This third and final model attempts to explain the true complexity and difficulty of our situation: Complicated explanation of The FallThe legend on this last model is even more complicated, naturally. A represents the pinnacle point of civilization, the point where everything is optimal and working as it should. B represents the downhill slope. Note that it is no longer a straight line but a curve; the further along you go, the greater the incline down. C represents the point where the slope is so great that the tires on the “car” can no longer maintain enough friction for you to control the car; the momentum of the “car” will carry it forward despite all efforts otherwise. D represents the gulf between that “point of no return” and E, which is the first stop. I say first Stop because as F indicates, there are other “cliffs” which the car of civilization faces further onward.

Why do I like this visualization better? A couple of reasons:

1) By imagining the optimal point of civilization, A, as a pinnacle it helps us understand that civilization is always in a precarious position, even when everything is optimal. In fact, the balance point is so narrow it is essentially impossible to perfectly balance everything, which means that civilization is effectively always moving downhill on B. In that sense, A represents a theoretical or ideal point, rather than an actual, real state.

2) The inclined curve of B accurately demonstrates the always unsteady nature of civilization. B’s ever increasing curve showcases how as more dominoes start to fall, they will trigger even more dominoes. 1 domino triggers 2, those 2trigger 4, and so on. The further along you go, the harder it is to stop.

3) What this model shows, and most people fail to understand, is that dominoes are always falling. ALWAYS. The theoretical pinnacle of A is meant to demonstrate that civilization is never safe. Why? Because civilization is nothing more than an ordered attempt to restrain the worst of human behavior, and to try and channel some of it towards positive ends. But human behavior is one of the few universal constants. Just like a gas will always expand outward to fill its container, humans will always push against social constraints in order to have their way. These pushes are the equivalent of dominoes falling. Commit a crime? You just toppled a domino. Ignored a long-standing social convention? That’s another domino knocked over. Civilization is maintained by picking up the toppled dominoes and setting them upright again. Punishing a criminal and ostracizing someone over their egregious social behavior are all examples of replacing dominoes. This process is one of a Sisyphean nature, it never ends, so long as civilization lasts.

It is vital that we understand this, because unless we all actively work towards setting the dominoes upright again, and putting new ones into place, civilization will fall. It will fall and fall, until it hits a Stop. At which point there is a massive social/civilizational upheaval. Assuming some measure of Order is restored, then the slow and steady climb back up the mountain can begin. Otherwise, the slide downward continues.

4) The Stop, that massive crash or collapse which we all [should] fear is the culmination of a long slide downhill. Some people, however, seem to look forward to it, a few even eagerly await this coming catastrophe. They fail to appreciate several things. The first is that the “Decline” is a cakewalk compared to what is ahead. As the title of this post mentioned, the Fall doesn’t kill you, the Stop at the bottom does. Those who have actually lived in societies which have collapsed will tell you that there is nothing to look forward to in that kind of environment. The second is that it is terribly difficult to pick up the pieces after a Stop. Before you can set up new dominoes, you have to clear the old ones from the board, and that is easier said than done. Wiping clean the detritus of a fallen civilization is the work of generations, not a few years or even a lifetime. So if you are cheering for a collapse, go ahead and Enjoy the Decline. Odds are, its the last fun that you will have in this world.

Conclusion

There are plenty of analogies and metaphors out there which can serve to describe our situation. But one thing is clear: the dominoes are falling, and they are falling faster than we can replace them. It may well be that we are past the point of no return. Yet I caution those who cheer this news, do not be so eager for what lies ahead. Those who yearn for the collapse are alike to those who yearn for the Day of Judgment, which shall be a day of Darkness:

18 Alas for you who desire the day of the Lord!
Why do you want the day of the Lord?
It is darkness, not light;
19     as if someone fled from a lion,
and was met by a bear;
or went into the house and rested a hand against the wall,
and was bitten by a snake.
20 Is not the day of the Lord darkness, not light,
and gloom with no brightness in it?

Update: Leap of Beta has a post up about this topic as well.

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44 Comments

Filed under Red Pill

44 responses to “It’s Not The Fall That Kills You…

  1. Donal,

    You’ve penned an absolutely brilliant, eloquent and in–depth explanation of my work while melding it with your own.

    I am deeply honored, tremendously impressed and feeling vindicated [a wonderful trend, these past few days, to be sure].

    I’d say more but I’d feel rude were I to go on at length here regarding many of my thoughts regarding my sense of vindication, so I’ll end with:

    Well done, Donal.

    Well done, indeed.

  2. Go ahead Ace and pat yourself on the back. We all need it now and then, and we might as well do it when we deserve it.

  3. Ironically, I had a similar post going up to this. I was going to publish it tomorrow, but pushed it to tonight to link it to yours.

    People see these dominoes. They agree on them. I’ve had discussions of such with multiple people from multiple backgrounds.

    Always they have hope mingled with their concern. Which is fine, people need hope. I have hope myself, though it rests far less within society as a whole and much more within individuals and extremely small groups.

    The reason for this is because I think that most of our society is delusional about what the dominoes mean, because they don’t see the pattern that came before, nor what the possible path of future dominoes might be. The average person will never be able to exert the will to grasp how dire the situations we face are, nor how they lock together.

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  5. Thanks, Donal.

    I will.

    But, in the interest of good manners:

    I’ll do it in “my house” rather than yours.

    You will, of course, be prominently – and positively – mentioned.

  6. Pingback: “Just like smoke that fades and makes no sound…” | 80-Proof Oinomancy

  7. I continue to be surprised by how various, independent parts of the ‘Sphere all move in the same direction, all at the same time. At time’s it’s a beautifully crazy synchronicity, and at times it’s oddly disturbing.

    Occasionally it’s both.

    Thanks for editing a link into the post.

  8. I think it is because a lot of us are observing the same phenomena at roughly the same time. This helps us synchronize a lot of our actions, without conscious effort to do so.

    And you are welcome for the link.

  9. theshadowedknight

    Imagine explaining the TSA to someone on New Years of 2000. Then once that is done, explain the NSA. Then the economy. Would they believe you, or would they think you insane? In this time, is being lucid a deviant act?

    The decline is speeding up, but not so fast people cannot keep up. The ones on the margins get hit harder, or maybe dragged under, but everyone else stays just far enough ahead. They keep running, but they know not from what they flee, only not to be at the back.

    The Shadowed Knight

  10. Ace is right. This is focused, clear, and well-reasoned. One of your best. Humbling.

    Now, for some content:

    What is the proper response here? I’m convinced we’re on the later part of part B, but the situation is worse than its gentle slope would suggest. Society is large, and the inertia is breathtaking. Slow the descent may be, but I really do think it can’t be turned back.

    And yet, so far, we haven’t hit anything seriously calamitous. There are neither riots, secret police, or foreign invaders on my doorstep. We have time to talk about this on the internet as a semi-hobby. You can spend a lot of time in a bunker waiting for a catastrophe that won’t come for 50 years.

    The answer, I think, is surprisingly practical: live conservatively such that you’re prepared at all times. Stay out of debt, learn basic skills, have a sane amount of food storage, and stay faithful. The “cost” of this is very low if things endure as they are for the rest of your life, but their benefit is literally lifesaving if a crisis occurs.

    I echo on the folly of hoping for sudden, hard Collapse. Right-thinking people will endure greater and greater cognitive dissonance as society declines, but no one is a winner when it actually falls.

    I’ll stop writing because I fear I’m just writing for the sake of writing. But excellent post.

  11. There are neither riots, secret police, or foreign invaders on my doorstep

    Are you so sure?

    Riots erupted after the Zimmerman trial. What will be the next impetus for them? And how do you know that you and those like you (say LDS, for example) won’t be the target?

    Secret Police? Look at what the NSA is doing. And the other parts of the national security apparatus. They are already fulfilling many of the roles of a Secret Police, the principal of which is the massive, organized collection of data, especially secrets, of the people in a clandestine manner.

    Are not illegal aliens a form of foreign invader? Yes they may be looking for a job, rather than to pillage and loot, and yet, do they not detract in some way from the potential of many of those who already live here? In a way, couldn’t they be considered to be stealing jobs?

    The only thing that makes your comment accurate are the last few words: “on my doorstep.” But for how long?

    I do agree with you on inertia, that has proven to be both a blessing and a curse. It is a curse because it would be terribly difficult to stop the movement of society at this point. But it is also a blessing because were it not for inertia from previous generations we would be sliding even faster towards the point of no return. Assuming, of course, that we haven’t hit that point yet.

    To answer the next question: I don’t know. No one does, really. We can only guess where we are. At least, not until the sudden Stop at the bottom.

  12. theshadowedknight

    Until a major, abrupt change occurs, the system will continue on. People will adapt to the changes as long as they happen at a rate that is not beyond their capability to adjust. The only ones I can think of are a deadly pandemic, grid down, or military invasion. The rest are a gradual decline in law and order, standard of living, infrastructure, etc. The problem is that if given that time, some truly horrible things can be made routine as “necessary measures in this temporary emergency.” That is the biggest threat.

    The Shadowed Knight

  13. […]. The problem is that if given that time, some truly horrible things can be made routine as “necessary measures in this temporary emergency.” That is the biggest threat.

    What was that Ben Franklin quote? “Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security.”

  14. @ Butterfly Flower

    It’s a good quote, and true.

    The problem is that not enough people in our current society meet the minimum requirements.

    @ Donal
    “We can only guess where we are. At least, not until the sudden Stop at the bottom.”

    I would say not even then. Until men are living in caves, there’s always further down to go, though I doubt it will get quiet that far. I suspect we’ll know we hit bottom of this specific spiral downwards after it’s gone up for an appreciable amount of time to see the bottom in hindsight.

  15. This was a very good read. You explained our current situation well and I liked your analogy using the domino effect. Here is my question, and correct me if I am wrong please or didn’t clearly understand, but would you consider The Fall or Original Sin to be the first domino? If not, what do you think is?
    I understand it is the The Stop that will effect us the ultimately, but when you mention that dominoes are always falling, it seems as if The Stop is inevitable?
    Also, for #3 you mention that “civilization is nothing more than an ordered attempt to restrain the worst of human behavior”. You almost seem to have the same view of mankind as Thomas Hobbes, except for the main fact that you are not a relativist, which makes all the difference. If I wasn’t a Christian reading this article, I would feel pretty hopeless for society.

  16. Hannah

    Fantastic post donalgraeme!

    Butterfly Flower – nice to ‘see’ you 🙂 I was just thinking about you while doing housework today…. how is your pregnancy going? How is your search for God going?

  17. I found your blog through Leap’s blog, but I’ve seen your comments here and there and have found them perceptive. This post is good. I’ll have to think on it before commenting further.

  18. Deep Strength

    @ Seriouslypleasedropit

    What is the proper response here? I’m convinced we’re on the later part of part B, but the situation is worse than its gentle slope would suggest. Society is large, and the inertia is breathtaking. Slow the descent may be, but I really do think it can’t be turned back.

    And yet, so far, we haven’t hit anything seriously calamitous. There are neither riots, secret police, or foreign invaders on my doorstep. We have time to talk about this on the internet as a semi-hobby. You can spend a lot of time in a bunker waiting for a catastrophe that won’t come for 50 years.

    Certain parts of society are already further declined than we are.

    For example, the Japanese have 61-70% of MGTOW in their 20s and 30s — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men . Scary.

    Likewise, the cesspool that is Detroit is a good indication of where most urban areas are ultimately headed to.

    The black population has out of wedlock birth rates of over 70-80%, and virtually all of the single mothers are on welfare.

    The government will eventually implode under the weight of economically unfeasible welfare and socialist medicine policies. But I’m not quite sure how much the implosion will be in terms of economic backlash.

    I’m not entirely sure that there will even be a “rock bottom” but it’s likely that enacted laws will be the ultimate stripping of the freedom we enjoy. The fact that SOPA and CISPA got so much support from the government and companies, even with the outcry of the population, means that the Internet may eventually be regulated. “Cyber bullying” can already be punished which is absurd — if you’re being “cyber bullied” you can turn your computer off. It’s not like being bullied in school where you have to go everyday.

    I fully expect that one day anyone from the manosphere and other “undesirable” sites (see anti-feminist, anti-conformity) will have to be operating with TOR.

    My best guesses:

    1. It may be a gradual route to the world of 1984.
    2. When the US government goes bankrupt or defaults, economies will implode all over the world and then we’ll see the rise of various totalitarian regimes.

  19. BF – What was that Ben Franklin quote? “Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security.”

    The actual quote is –
    “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”

    It’s important to note the words “essential” and “temporary” there. Some years ago, there were riots in my city, and a curfew was imposed as a lightweight kinda-sorta martial law. There was a proven danger if people went out at night, and essential business could still be conducted during daylight hours. Essential liberty was not curtailed (property rights were actually being somewhat protected under the curfew, for example) While the safety purchased here could possibly be argued to have been temporary, the curfew was temporary as well. Lasted all of one weekend (the first really warm weekend of spring, if I recall right. Great time for idiots to go out breaking stuff even without riots going on).

    There were arguments at the time whether this was effective or not. I think it may have helped a little, but didn’t do all that much. However, I do believe if it had been enacted, say, two days earlier when rioting was in full swing, it was have been more effective in stopping some of the damage that did occur.

  20. Commit a crime? You just toppled a domino. Ignored a long-standing social convention? That’s another domino knocked over. Civilization is maintained by picking up the toppled dominoes and setting them upright again. Punishing a criminal and ostracizing someone over their egregious social behavior are all examples of replacing dominoes.

    It’s been said that punishing smaller crimes prevents larger ones. People have forgotten this.

  21. Something I once read a long long time ago – a writer was challenging the notion that things will either always get better, or that there must be a huge, spectacular crash. He wrote that (quoting from memory here) “things can get fucked and stay fucked for a very long time.”

  22. Your last model is good, but there’s a follow up to it. After the Stop at the bottom, climbing back up again is filled with painful bumps along the way, and at any time, careless move could bring the entire thing crashing right back down again, making things even worse.

    I believe this is a accurate visual representation of such…

  23. I am going to try and address as many folks as I can in a single post.

    @ TSK

    People are already adapting as best as they can. That is the nature of the Fall. The Stop, however, is something which you can’t “adjust to.” And I should be clear that it is not so much “The Stop” as it is “A Stop”, because there is a long ways to go down, with many ledges to meet on the way.

    @ BF

    That quote (once corrected) is indicative of a mindset which contributes to the dominoes falling

    @ Leap

    Trust me, you will know a Stop when you meet one. That is what makes them a Stop. They are unmistakeable.

    @ Hannah

    Thank you. A bit different from my usual subject coverage, but still tied in to it.

    @ Deep Strength

    A government implosion may be the cause of a Stop, or be caused by one, but it certainly is a possibility and is what we are hurtling towards.

    @ NSR

    That is a good example of how a recovery is a tricky business. As I said, you have to clear the fallen dominoes first, before placing new ones, and that is a difficult feat. The work of generations.

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  25. theshadowedknight

    Donal, what I am saying is that if it is drawn out long enough, it is more of a Roll than a Fall, and you do not get the Stop that makes it so brutal. I read a piece on the Roman Empire that said that Rome never really Fell. It got worse and worse until it could not maintain control, but there was no sudden Stop. It took so long that everyone just got used to each new change. The way our system is constructed actually leaves us much more vulnerable to a Stop than Rome was.

    I am more concerned with measuring which will be worse: a Stop that kills millions or a Roll that leaves us with a controlling and tyrannical government? From there, do I prepare a fortress or a bolt hole? Do I build a town or a house? How do I get ready?

    Speaking of that, how has survivalblog.com not been mentioned yet? They cover lots of this already.

    The Shadowed Knight

  26. I believe that the Sack of Rome by the Goths represents a pretty good example of a Stop.

    I am more concerned with measuring which will be worse: a Stop that kills millions or a Roll that leaves us with a controlling and tyrannical government? From there, do I prepare a fortress or a bolt hole? Do I build a town or a house? How do I get ready?

    Good questions.

  27. One possibility is that technology will cushion a lot of the lesser impacts, and keep inertia going, but also enable people to avoid making the hard choices that would prevent further damage, until civilization fragments into so many shards that it just sort of evaporates. Less of a Fall and more of a Drift.

  28. Hannah

    A world adrift… A world of drifters… Despondent Darkness either way.

    Psalm 88:5
    “I am like a man who has no strength,
    Adrift among the dead,
    Like the slain who lie in the grave,
    Whom You remember no more,
    And who are cut off from Your hand.”

  29. theshadowedknight

    Fair enough, I can accept that as a Stop. However, Rome was sacked several times over the span of eleven hundred years, and still exists today. If the grid goes down, optimist projections are about seventy percent dieoff in the first year alone. That will be concentrated on the East and West Coasts and the Southwest, along with any other areas with high population density. End result is only one of ten survives long term. Rome never faced anything of that magnitude, which is what I was trying to say, albeit awkwardly.

    The Shadowed Knight

  30. Very true. Technology and the infrastructure made possible by our civilization allow for a much greater population than would exist otherwise. If the grid goes down, if all of that falls apart, then those numbers become unsustainable, and you see deaths on what I think we can safely call a biblical scale.

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  32. Donal, your analysis is sound in theory but I believe that the reality of the situation is not quite so disastrous as the most pessimistic collapse scenarios make it out to be. Our civilisation will not come to an end within our lifetimes or for hundreds of years more at the least. This is because nature abhors a vacuum, and once we reach the point that the present system cannot provide adequate Order, a new system will arise quite quickly to take it’s place. Once the old ideas no longer get results, men will naturally look to new ones. Paralytic systems always lose to young and vigorous ones as happened in the Qin conquest of China, the Turkish ascendancy in the Magian world, and, perhaps most pertinently, the transition from Republic to Empire in old Rome. The grid will not go down, as long as there bold, ambitious Men working to do whatever it takes to stop it.

    The present world system has no new ideas, they will simply continue doing what they have with less competence and less success until they cannot continue anymore. Whatever you want to call it, the ‘Alt-Right’ or the ‘Dark Enlightenment’ does have new ideas. One of it’s chief problems, however, is a certain passivity. We should think of ourselves less as the rearguard of the old and more as the vanguard of the new. For someone will fill the vacuum, and if not us, who?

  33. The grid will not go down, as long as there bold, ambitious Men working to do whatever it takes to stop it.

    Therein lies the problem, because feminism and its handmaidens have done their level best to ensure that there are as few such men as possible in our present society. That is not to say there are none, but we have a dearth of Men such has not been seen in a long time.

    As for the magnitude of the “Collapse”, I won’t begin to venture a guess. There are too many unknowns and variables to make an accurate prediction at this time. Something is coming, but no one knows for sure what, exactly.

  34. Well, Donal, how many men out of a population does it really take to effect change or simply prevent disaster? 5%? 10%? I mean determined, dedicated sorts of course, but surely such numbers can still be found.

    Have you read this speech by Alex Kurtagic?

    http://alexkurtagicofficial.blogspot.com/2012/07/collapse-scenarios-in-west-and-their.html

    He discusses a variety of collapse scenarios and emphasizes the necessity of taking action to ensure a movement’s success, rather than passively awaiting whatever may come. Yes, I know he’s a white nationalist rather than a religious traditionalist such as ourselves, but his points are still entirely valid.

  35. miforest

    I am late to the party , but older than most of you. I thinK we are well on our way to the E point. I live just outside detroit in many sections of the city there is no rule of law. its pretty much the frontier with runing water.

    Many of us see so many small things that put the lie to the media lie of a recovery. and under obama , the feds and most state law enforcement agencies recognize and limits on their power, methods, or actions.

    Ayone sho doesn’t look at this with fear and trepidation is a fool. there are whole states that cannot possabley stay solvent for much longer.

    whether its the federal inability or unwillingness to enforce immagration law or city cops with a 58 minute average response time to a 911 call, enormous under the table tax evasion by people working off the books.
    there is clearly no longer any “controlling legal authoity” .

    I still work hard and try t keep my kids on the right path, but clearly things are accelerating, andat sme point all the money to buy off the dissaffedted will dry up .

    hope we are arround to help put everything back togather when the dust settles.

  36. That quote (once corrected) is indicative of a mindset which contributes to the dominoes falling

    I was reading an article today (I think it was in the Daily News?) about “national security” being used as an excuse for funding bloated ineffective defense industry projects. There was a line in the article about how companies know this and intentionally make wild, outlandish proposals (for example, do we really need laser equipped dolphins? Are we preparing for a war with Atlantis?).

    Trading liberty for security is a poor idea because you have no idea if the threat your trading your liberty for is real, or just some-nonsense made up by corrupt defense contractors.

    Butterfly Flower – nice to ‘see’ you 🙂 I was just thinking about you while doing housework today…. how is your pregnancy going? How is your search for God going?

    Thank you for asking, you are very kind. Unfortunately I had a stillbirth two weeks ago 😦 While we grieve, my husband and I are taking a break from religion, spiritual searching, and all that.

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