In the comment section of my latest post Leap of Beta, who makes his home at Staged Reality, left what I thought was an insightful comment. Reading it helped solidify some thoughts that I hadn’t been able to settle enough that I could include them in that post. Given how long it already was, I’ve decided to write a new post to lay them out. I am going to track his comment somewhat through my post, so lets begin with this paragraph:
The problem where semantics come in is that there is a very, VERY big difference between Godly Masculinity and Game, yet Dalrock and Vox lump them together. Heartiste does not. I’ve written before about the difference between temptation vs attraction. Temptation is the heart of Game, attraction is the heart of Christian Masculinity; though I actually would go farther and call it Adoration. My reason for this is that the reactions I’ve seen of women to Christian masculinity is a strong mirroring of the adoration a Christian woman will give to God.
One way of reading Leap’s comment is that Godly Masculinity and Game are two very different things. Here is a visual representation of this:
In this model, the two have nothing in common. This is the preferred model of most opponents of Game around the manosphere.
Leap then followed up that paragraph with this sentence:
It should be noted that many, -MANY- of the things game advocates fall in line with those patriarchal teachings.
This provides a different potential visual representation of the two:
Under this model, there is a certain amount of commonality between the two. The graphic itself isn’t exact, the overlap I included (the part in green) was merely to show that there were some areas of compatibility. This model is the one which Christian advocates of Game seem to have adopted.
Much of the debate from my last post centers around which model is correct. If Model 1 is correct, then Christians should have nothing to do with Game. If Model 2 is is correct, then Christians should be trying to determine just where the “green zone” is located. Before trying to resolve this debate, I want to go back to Leap’s comment. The part that I initially overlooked, but has intrigued me since, is this:
I’ve written before about the difference between temptation vs attraction. Temptation is the heart of Game, attraction is the heart of Christian Masculinity; though I actually would go farther and call it Adoration. My reason for this is that the reactions I’ve seen of women to Christian masculinity is a strong mirroring of the adoration a Christian woman will give to God.
I initially dismissed Leap’s thoughts here because Attraction is a critical component of Game, not just Christian Masculinity. Because of this, I didn’t give his ideas on Temptation any real thought. But as I was writing this response, I realized that he was on to something. I don’t think his initial statement was correct for the reason I mentioned above, but it provides the kernel of thought necessary to germinate a full concept. You see, both Attraction and Temptation lie at the heart of Game. Not one or the other. Both reside there, although in different ways (as I will explain shortly). As for Christian or Godly Masculinity, Attraction and Adoration are to be found at its heart. [The concept of Adoration seems fairly similar to my thoughts on Desire, although I don’t think that they are an exact match.]
For Game, Temptation is the second step. The first step is to generate Attraction. Once a woman is attracted, then you can tempt her. Or perhaps a different word is appropriate: seduce. Many Game advocates in fact recommend a three stage model:
1) The Attraction Phase
2) The Comfort Phase
3) The Seduction Phase
(One example is found here.)
To tie this in what what I and Leap have mentioned before, “Step 1” is a combination of the Attraction Phase and the Comfort Phase. Personally, I think that they are an unnecessary attempt to distinguish between the two. Both involve attraction, with the nature of the attraction moving from more appearance or status based to more emotion based over time. Once Attraction is taken care of, then you can move to the Seduction phase, or what Leap deemed Temptation.
As for Godly Masculinity, you start off in a similar way: by building Attraction. Once you have established Attraction, then you can lead things towards Adoration. Unlike the unbridled lust or the lure of the forbidden fruit found in Game’s seduction/temptation, Adoration is based off a God-fearing woman’s acknowledgment of a man’s righteous character and her respect of him for it. Whereas a woman who is tempted with Game merely wants to sleep with the man tempting her, a Godly woman who adores a man wants to follow him, to join herself to him and his mission/cause.
From this perspective we can see where Game and Godly Masculinity are “compatible”: the generation of attraction. However, both take very divergent paths once you have achieved the necessary level of attraction. Although I think that they actually may share an even earlier frame of reference, if you will. By that I mean that “Frame” is something that is a component of both Game and Godly Masculinity at an even more base level than attraction. Perhaps the best way of visualizing this is as a pyramid. Lets start with Game:
Masculine Frame forms the base of pyramid. Everything starts with that; forming a Dominant Masculine Frame is the first step in the whole process. In fact, it is so elemental it must be established before a man even approaches a woman. After Frame is established a man can approach a woman and begin step two, which is the building of Attraction. After sufficiently building Attraction, a man can then move to the third and final step, Temptation. Moving on to Godly Masculinity, we can see that it looks fairly similar:
The only obvious differences is the pinnacle of the pyramid. Temptation has been replaced by adoration. However, I think there are probably some base differences (no pun intended) in how Masculine Frame works between the two. Even if there aren’t, these two new models provide us with a better understanding of how Game and Godly Masculinity interact. We can see that the intersection between the two is found in generating attraction, and in some measure in Masculine Frame.
All of which leads to the major question waiting to be resolved:
Is it possible to separate the Attraction aspects of Game from its Temptation aspects?
In other words, are the tools which are designed to generate Attraction so intrinsically linked to Temptation that they cannot be used apart from those purposes? If this is the case, then Great Books For Men and other opponents of Game are correct- it has no place in Christian circles. On the other hand, if the tools to generate Attraction and Temptation are different, then it stands to reason that Christians who wish to advance Godly Masculinity can appropriate the tools to generate Attraction for their own, holier ends. A similar analysis can also be applied to Masculine Frame as well, although I think that it is sufficiently different from the two stages that the same ethical concerns are not implicated.
As a final thought, if one uses Leap’s definitions for Game and Godly Masculinity, or at least his understanding of how they work, then there really isn’t any room for Christian men to “Game their wives”. Temptation has no place in marriage, and since Game inherently involves Temptation, Christians must eschew it. Of course, that just gets us back to the original point of Leap’s comment, which is that much of our struggle here is over semantics. So rather than argue over what is and isn’t game, we can instead direct our efforts to answering the question I raised above.
Donal Graeme 
Aquinas Dad writes, “Deti, While I appreciate your point in general, you do not attend even a majority of churches; please do not claim to speak for, say, mine.”
Dear Aquinas Dad,
Your church has failed to stem the destruction of the family and the over 50,000,000 abortions which have taken place since Roe vs. Wade. So why are you gloating? Did not Jesus teach that Pride is a Sin?
Stop acting so proud and haughty! Don’t speak with such arrogance! The LORD is a God who knows your deeds; and he will judge you for what you have done.
1 Samuel 2:3
Love the LORD, all you faithful ones! For the LORD protects those who are loyal to him, but he harshly punishes all who are arrogant.
Psalm 31:23
Don’t be impressed with your own wisdom. Instead, fear the LORD and turn your back on evil. Then you will gain renewed health and vitality.
Proverbs 3:7
The LORD despises pride; be assured that the proud will be punished.
Pride goes before destruction, and haughtiness before a fall. It is better to live humbly with the poor than to share plunder with the proud.
Proverbs 16:5, 18-19
Haughty eyes, a proud heart, and evil actions are all sin.
Proverbs 21:4
The day is coming when your pride will be brought low and the LORD alone will be exalted. In that day the LORD Almighty will punish the proud, bringing them down to the dust.
Isaiah 2:11
“I, the LORD, will punish the world for its evil and the wicked for their sin. I will crush the arrogance of the proud and the haughtiness of the mighty.”
Isaiah 13:11
“Look at the proud! They trust in themselves, and their lives are crooked; but the righteous will live by their faith.”
Habakkuk 2:4
“God blesses those who realize their need for him, for the Kingdom of Heaven is given to them.
“God blesses those who are gentle and lowly, for the whole earth will belong to them.”
Matthew 5:3, 5
Jesus prayed this prayer: “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding the truth from those who think themselves so wise and clever, and for revealing it to the childlike.”
Matthew 11:25
“Anyone who wants to be the first must take last place and be the servant of everyone else.”
Mark 9:35
The world offers only the lust for physical pleasure, the lust for everything we see, and pride in our possessions. These are not from the Father. They are from this evil world.
1 John 2:16
Dear Aquinas Dad, please do not throw Moses and Jesus under the bus just because they get in the way of your vast Pride. Thanks!
GB4M;
Please assume that I do not read any of your comments. This will sve you a great deal of wasted time.
Thank you.
Dear Aquinas Dad,
As I quote Moses and Jesus and the Prophets, I already assumed you, as a failed Churchian responsible for the destruction of the family, ignore all my comments. I post them for the erudition of the general population.
Best,
GBFM
“Go against a foolish man, and he knoweth not the lips of prudence. The wisdom of a discreet man is to understand his way: and the imprudence of fools erreth.”
Proverbs 14:7-8
@ Aquinas Dad:
I recognize my man in you description of the virtues.
In the rare instance a man displays Godly masculinity, he is shamed, rebuked, punished, and ostracized.
It is common knowledge who wears the pants in our family Deti, and my husband has never been shamed or rebuked. On the contrary, he is respected and looked to for wisdom on issues of marriage as well as other issues.
Now I on the other hand, have experienced a share of ridicule for “subjecting” myself to his leadership without asserting my right to some level of autonomy.
Elspeth,
My wife has had some of this sort of push back, as well, especially from her old college friends. There is also the other kind, the ‘you aren’t Christian enough because you do/don’t do x’. I told her to deal with either this way;
Anyone who has a problem with how my wife lives her life, be it as a SAHW or the way we raise the kids, has to talk to me about it.
The results are *amazing*. It seems old ‘friends’ who think she is throwing away her education simply drop the subject and are pleasant again rather than explain their reasons to me. And that older mom who was ‘scandalized’ at how my wife breastfeeds in the back of the cry room? I guess it wasn’t important enough to bother me with.
Elspeth,
As you must be aware, most men are not raised like your husband. Many men have been raised by father’s who are not the head of the household, by any stretch of the word. The men who have been raised thus have no concept of how to deal with women much like a man who has never been in water cannot swim.
GBFM,
You bear false witness against me. You lie and act as if I say this or imply that. Do what you will, but know that you are sinning.
Anti Game Crowd,
The only way to restore to men the skill and knowledge of how to deal with women is to teach them. So far the only people that do this are people that teach Game. This doesn’t have to continue, as there are enough Christian men out there who have sifted Game and have pulled out information for the rest of us. Information and advice that is Godly. Let’s not deceive ourselves on where the information came from though. I myself pick the meat from the bones and help my male friends understand and interact with women so that they can be considered attractive. This is not to fornicate or submit themselves to women, but rather to understand how to deal with them like a man who rarely makes a shot would get pointers on his jump shot. Sometimes the person giving the basketball advice is immoral, but that doesn’t mean they still can’t teach the jump shot. The messenger can be separated from the message.
If you are incapable of separating the desire to attract a wife with the desire to fornicate, that is your issue, not mine. Scripture is clear on what fornication is and I don’t participate in that.
-matthew
Weird. Downright sickening.
It is possible, expected, and right that Christians, and I have to shout this, SEEK THE WORD, GOD AND THE GREAT BOOKS FOR MEN to get instruction on how to grow a backbone.
Having seen the gamers ‘get’ women, (though it is really a numbers game, as many have admitted, getting only a 10% response to ‘game’ and an even smaller fraction for sex), one would think Christian men would GO BACK TO THE WORD AND THE GREAT BOOKS FOR MEN to gain insight, and grow.
But no, they want the 16 commandments of Roissy.
And for what? I have been married for 15 years. What kind of game can last that long? Do I game my wife? My children?
The hard truth:
Rule, and if you can’t rule don’t marry.
Are Christians now just sappy churchboys? Have they no spine?
Where is “Greater is He that is within you than he that is ruling the world”?
I thought the game infatuation would run its course but the “if you can’t beat them, join them” mentality has taken over.
What kind of witness are you providing to the Roissys acting this way?
What sort of woman are you seeking?
On what basis are you seeking a woman?
What sort of empty men are you? Will game fill you up?
What if you can’t find a godly woman? Or suffer in a loveless marriage that you gamed your way into? What will you do?
What happens when you must instruct/correct your wife? Your children?
Correction game? Instruction game? Married game? Dancing monkey game?
Will you then go to God?
Pathetic.
Non-Christians like GBFM show more respect for God’s transformative power of the word than Christians.
“Non-Christians like GBFM show more respect for God’s transformative power of the word than Christians.””
Huh? I thought GBFM is Christian- Orthodox????
Anyway..
I was thinking of the virtue thing too, natural masculine virtues are honor, strength, courage etc., feminine virtues being gentleness, nurture, subservience, meekness.etc . These are good fruits and they are a natural product of living in Faith. Not everybody will be able to recognize those good fruits, but Christians will. Those masculine virtues, as a product of a man of faith, are what makes him attractive. Maybe not attractive to all women, but I’d rather see that as a blessing, at least it means one won’t be married to a non Christian and unequally yolked because the woman was attracted to game, and not his masculine virtue. If a man is following Scripture and putting the Lord first, and a woman doesn’t find his demeanor attractive, this is her loss.
“Having seen the gamers ‘get’ women, (though it is really a numbers game, as many have admitted, getting only a 10% response to ‘game’ and an even smaller fraction for sex),”
Marlon, though I don’t agree with game for Christians.. I do believe game would work,it appeals to feral instincts of women, it is a tool based on feral behavior to tame a woman’s feral instincts. But Christian women and men rise above it, and “walk the narrow path”. The Holy Spirit changes people, and enables them to overcome, and to respond supernaturally to natural instincts/the flesh.
You know what I think the whole problem here is the word “Game” .. it’s too difficult to get confused between what is right and wrong when learning it from an unchristian source I guess. But that could be changed if Christian men who feel the men are not having the right training to become masculine but Godly men, just band together and write about Masculine virtues, strength, honor etc. perhaps without borrowing from game. Something like “godly masculinity” based on men of Scripture. That would be good, and clear up confusion – just a suggestion. 🙂
Dear embracingourfemininity,
The huge problem is that Churchians have rejected the MASCULINE LAW OF MOSES which Jesus came to fulfill, thusly re-crucifying Jesus Christ.
Then, because women are no longer attracted to them, they replaced the exiled JESUS and LAW OF MOSES with gamey game, which is centered around serving not GOD AND MOSES AND JESUS but gina tinzgzlzlzolzooozoz.
Long story short, because donalgraeme , Lyn87 and mwcain failed to make their women obey THE LAW OF MOSES which JESUS CAME TO FULFILL, they themselves must now obey the SIXTEEN COMMANDMENTS OF POON.
Because these go against the teachings of MOSES AND JESUS CHRIST, they must then attack and destroy MOSES, JESUS, and da GBFM for siding with the exalted LAW OF MOSES and JESUS over butt and gina tinzgzlzlzozozo.
My husband sums it up thusly:
Do what’s right and honorable to the best of his ability regardless of whether or not I (his wife) agrees. Utilize my gifts and intellect, but since the buck stops with him it’s foolish to follow my lead.
He never ever changes anything about himself that he doesn’t want to change unless there is a clear moral or Biblical reason for doing so. My personal preferences do not meet that standard. This was a hard pill for me to swallow in the early years but I did it and I’m glad I did.
He tells me what he expects from me and expects to be obeyed because that’s the nature of marriage. I can’t speak to him any kind of way with impunity. Men think there’s nothing they can do but let me tell you, when I call his cell and he doesn’t answer and doesn’t call back because I disrespected him, it makes me think twice before I start spouting off.
When I used to over spend repeatedly (years ago), he set things up where I couldn’t and I learned to not over spend. This was good because he hates paying bills and whatnot and I handle the day to day finances responsibly and in line with his orders. He trusts me to do that now.
This is all tempered with passion and attention so that I cannot claim to be put upon or neglected because he runs his house the way he sees fit.
No game required.
@ Embracing Your Femininity
I recently have started calling those that follow game as those that worship the Dark Gods of the Blood. They’ll worship anything with power to move men and women easily and forcefully.
@ MWCain
You’re missing the point.
Never, ever, have myself or GBFM really been worried about people falling into Lust. That is actually the easier part to avoid with Game. What is impossible to avoid is falling into Pride. Game = Pride. There is nothing else to it.
Think about it. The complaint of the manosphere is that women have too much ego. They think too much of themselves, that they denounce and ignore the weak men who lack any understanding of God and what he desires for men, because they don’t use the Patriarchs as their role models and don’t see the fallen nature of women in scripture as they write off every sinful woman as “just one of those women” rather than “Just all women.”
You’re very literally advocating that since Eve has eaten the apple, that Adam should go ahead and do the same. The correct response would be to slap Eve, throw the apple across the garden, and then forgive and love her after she realizes what she’s done.
But go ahead, eat that apple. See where it gets you. I stared into those depths, and what I saw is what turned me towards God.
I haven’t had a chance to catch up on people’s comments yet, so I will be doing that shortly.
To begin with:
GBFM, I am sick and tired of you misrepresenting people on my blog. I can handle your personal attacks on me, your juvenile language and name-calling. I may even tolerate it when you carry it over to other people. But I have had it with the misrepresentations. Unless you desist immediately and apologize to those whose statements you have inaccurately characterized, you will not be allowed to comment further on this blog.
I may save my reply for a new post instead. I have been thinking about Pride and the role it plays in Game, and have some ideas I need to work out. They get back to Frame, and how there really is a vast different between Game and Godly Masculinity.
I made a comment on the differences of Game and Godly masculinity earlier: https://donalgraeme.wordpress.com/2013/12/29/godly-masculinity-versus-game/comment-page-1/#comment-4709
Aaaaaaand, once again GBFM has borne false witness against me and others. It is he who linked the Heartiste pick-up manual SIXTEEN COMMANDMENTS OF POON, while accusing those of us who speak against “game” of living by that trash. He has disparaged the works of Jesus in restoring sophroneo to a man who lacked it in the Gospel of Mark, and Paul who wrote about it at some length in several epistles, and Moses who wrote about the related concept of sekel six times, and Solomon (the wisest man to ever live), who wrote about possessing wisdom and a sound mind dozens of times, and more than a dozen other writers of the Bible (in both Old and New Testaments).
He returns to “game” like a dog to its own vomit… heaping praise on his hero Heartiste while condemning others for supposedly following the same Satanic teachings he links to with appalling regularity. Sorry, Leap: he’s a fraud, and it’s not because I or mwcain “don’t understand him.” Open your eyes, man – he’s playing you for a fool. You’ll notice I stopped addressing anything to him since yesterday.
___________________
@ Elspeth,
The actions and attitudes you described at December 30, 2013 at 9:51 PM are examples of a man who possesses sophroneo. No “game” required. “Game” is for boys and fornicators like Heartiste and his followers – sophroneo is for Christian men.
Sophroneo is to combat as “game” is to HALO…
Sophroneo is to brain surgery as “game” is to “Operation”…
Sophroneo is to Dostoyevsky as “game” is to GBFM…
You get the idea.
Lyn, check your e-mail.
@ Lyn
“Sorry, Leap: he’s a fraud, and it’s not because I or mwcain “don’t understand him.” Open your eyes, man – he’s playing you for a fool.”
I never said you didn’t. I don’t know sophreneo, which is why I haven’t commented on it. Nor have I made any comments directed towards you in quiet some time, because I have a feeling that you understand to a greater depth than MWCain, who is advocating game. Sophroneo sounds in line with the Virtues, the beatitudes, the fruits of the spirit, and the lessons from the Patriarchs. If that is so, than I would likely be for it.
But MWCain doesn’t advocate anything of the sort – he’s advocating combating the pride of modern women with the pride of Game. He sees no answers within the subtle lessons of the Bible on “How should men live?” or he believes that when it comes to women that it should be different than the rest of his life.
To which I would say he should read 2 Samuel (sometimes 2 Kings depending on translation) 6:16-23. Compare this to what is being advocated by people that turn towards Game, the sin of Adam and Eve, towards Pride, and towards the worship of the Dark Gods of the Blood.
As the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michal the daughter of Saul looked ou tthe window, and saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord; and she despised him in her heart. And they brought in the ark of the Lord, and set it in its place, inside the tent which David had pitched for it; and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the Lord. And when David had finished offering the burnt offerings and the peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the Lord of hosts, and distributed among all the people, the whole multitude of Israel, both men and women, to each a cake of bread, a portion of meat, and a cake of raisins. Then all the people departed, each to his house
And David returned to bless his household. But Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, “How the king of Israel honored himself today, uncovering himself today before the eyes of his servants’ maids, as one of the vulgar fellows shamelessly uncovers himself!” And David said to Michal, “It was before the Lord, who chose me above your father, and above all his house, to appoint me as prince over Israel, the people of the Lord – and I will make merry before the Lord. I will make myself yet more contemptible than this, and I will be abased in your eyes; but by the maids of whom you have spoken, by them I shall be held in honor.” And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to the day of her death.
– 2 Samuel 6:16-23 St Ignatius Translation
Thus, you have Christian Masculinity. You have a man whom cares not what women think of him, but cares only what the Lord thinks of him. A King who is meek before God and before those to whom he should be meek, who continually avoided killing his enemies because of their standing with God, yet God still setting him up as beloved King of Israel. And such a meek man before God lays the smack down on the rebellious woman. He dances, lives, and has given God his due. He has exhibited all the Christian Masculinity needed to win the hearts of his wives, concubines, and his Kingdom.
And the rebellious wench who detested him for it was made miserable and childless.
Does that sound familiar at all to the current situation men find themselves in concerning women? It certainly does to me!
That is how you find lessons on how to live as a Man of God. I found this not even searching for it, but in the reading I was already going to do – I’m currently reading through the Old Testament in search of the virtues. I want to find how God formed his chosen people, Israel, from debased sinners into those able to find redemption from God with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I believe that doing so will lead me to that Christian Masculinity and help predispose me to the fruits of the Holy Spirit as well as lay a foundation of Grace and the Virtues.
And that is the path I advocate men to follow – the one of The Lord. The one he led his Chosen People down through hard sacrifices over thousands of years. The one we are blessed enough to have available to us now, to gain wisdom and become as Christlike as God gives us the strength to be.
Leap, more power to you. Drop the “of a beta”.
Elspeth, great comments. I’m in full agreement.
Kudos to Bob Wallace who has always said this Greek letter nonsense was always crap. A man can’t use the same word to describe Putin and Mystery.
GBFM, don’t let the haters get you down. Your words stung a bit too much. Everybody’s all hurt, ignoring the substance of what was said, bawling and whining, “He called me naaaames! Waaaaaa!”
Sorry, Leap, but you DID say that I don’t understand GBFM at December 30 at 12:49 P.M.. The fact is that GBFM is a disciple of the arch-fornicator Heartiste, and wrote, “the GREAT HEARTISTE serves far more men with the relevant Truth that sets them free,” which ought to give you pause. Silly me: I thought it was the truth (about the blood of Christ) that sets us free, not “SIXTEEN COMMANDMENTS OF POON.”
Considering that Heartiste built an internet empire by teaching men how to pick up women in order to fornicate with them, there is little room for misunderstanding what GBFM thinks, despite his gibberish and constant nonsensical referrals to Moses and Jesus. He’s a fraud, and guys like you and Marlon don’t see it. In fact, I suspect Marlon and GBFM are the same person, as Marlon writes a lot like GBFM when he steps “out of character.” I can’t see his internet I.P., so I’m just speculating, though.
Okay: enough of that and on to something else. I think that you and mwcain are closer philosophically than you realize, and that 90% of your differences are differences of definition and terminology rather than substance. I’m working on a more detailed explanation – a sort of “Grand Unifying Theory” of Biblical Masculinity, but for now I think that if you both dropped the word “game” and just described what you view as the attributes of Godly masculinity, most of your disagreements about how a man ought to act would evaporate in short order.
As for David and Michal – that was one of David’s finest moments, but I would express a word of caution about using David as a general-purpose role model. He had moments of sublime insight and behavior, but he also did horrible things in the clear light of day (take Uriah, for example). And he certainly didn’t do well with regard to Bathsheba, who did NOT die childless – she was the mother of Solomon despite the fact that she cuckolded her husband with the ultimate alpha male in the kingdom (that same David), then married him after he had her lawful husband murdered.
Lyn,
You are correct in your assessment. I do not have a hang up with the word Game because I see it as a set of facts that one can use one way, or another. Much like a man’s strength. If it serves to help the discourse, I can call it something else. For when I speak of ‘good’ Game, I don’t speak of dark triad traits, fornication, etc. I refer to Game as telling men how to act like a strong man (not necessarily a good man). In the pretending we find ourselves becoming. It is upon our own heads to learn how to be good strong men. Game doesn’t teach goodness.
Leap,
I absolutely agree there is Pride that comes out of Game. But there is also Pride that comes out of anything else we master. That is a pit, and as we follow God we need to be aware and do everything we can to avoid those pits. You obviously believe that the entirety of Game is sinful. It may be that you are a weaker brother in this regard. That is not to your shame, and I do not mean it as thus. I have my own issues that are areas where I fall, both hard and quick, and I have learned to avoid those things with passion. I ardently argue with my friends about avoiding those things too.
I understand that you should be concerned about what God thinks of you. first and foremost. Where the opinion of man and God come into conflict, you need to choose to hang your hat in God’s house, for good or ill. However, it isn’t the case that being attractive to a woman is always in direct opposition of God.
There are days and times, months in the past, where the concerns of women/men were more important to me than God. There will be times in the future as well. Game or no Game. That is Pride. That is Lust. That is Gluttony. That is being fallen. That is why it is good that God forgives and allows us to get back up and trek up the mountain again, this next time a little stronger or wiser for our folly.
Elspeth,
I am happy for you and your husband. There are men who do not have men like your husband as fathers or as friends. We have no one to teach us those things in practical terms – in ways that we can understand. I appreciate the Game community, Christian and non Christian, for opening my eyes to a world where I don’t have to be a nice guy. Instead I can be good. For years the church and my family taught those as the same thing. They are not.
To the crowd,
Looking around the church, I think it is safe to say that men cannot deprogram themselves from the nice = good belief that is pounded into their heads every week. We need another man to come alongside and shake things up.
For Leap and myself it was Gamers that shook us. Likely for GBFM too. Having been shaken, we can rightly now look around and say, ‘this Game thing isn’t all good’. To Leap and GBFM, it looks all evil. But, what we can say is that the masculine traits that Game requires you to ape, are mentioned in the Bible. I refer to strength, courage, and mastery.
Those things are found in purer forms in the Bible, but they are not presented as something so clear and therefore their application is more difficult and so success is random. I do not necessarily mean success with women either.
I am absolutely all for the next evolution of this discussion. Let’s talk about restoring masculinity to our Christian societies post Game. However, it is disingenuous to say that nothing good can be said of Game. After all, it brought us here.
– Matthew
Marlon,
Do not excuse GBFM’s sin. You do no one good by doing such a thing. Least of all GBFM. There is nothing wrong with the wisdom of his words. There is everything wrong with his decision to bear false witness and mischaracterize the people here.
We are not enemies. We a fellow travelers moving up the mountain towards God. We differ in agreeing which trail is more direct or easiest, but I am fully confident we all intend on reaching the same point.
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end. And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.
We are just quarrelling over details.
-Matthew
But the devil is in the details and that is how he has always worked starting with Eve. Sin doesn’t always come trumpets blazing with obvious hellfire, it comes as an extension or alteration of what is right.
Like St. Paul, he cannot get you to discard an action. But also like St. Paul said, he will challenge you on it, and that is not a sin. This is what GBFM is doing.
Mccwain you keep saying, we can separate bone and meat, the good from bad in one substance. Jesus always said if the yeast is bad, do not eat the bread. Do not mix wineskins and wine. If the fruit is bad the tree IS bad. He reiterated this point day in and out. Because Jesus gave us this tool to evaluate if something is pure, or of something is rotten, and it seems to me GBFM and several others are saying that game is indeed rotten.
mwcain,
Example: “Wicca, invented whole cloth in the 20th Century, claims to be an older and wiser than Christianity. Since it apes Christianity (with rituals) we can see it as something that leads people to Christianity”
This is a false statement, obviously.
“Game” is an attempt by people who are *not* brave, just, prudent, or temperate to *appear* to be these things to deliberately deceive others. This idea was concocted for specifically immoral ends and has an admittedly low success rate; i.e., “game” is Dungeons and Dragons for guys who are not masculine to try to pretend they are masculine and it is not that good at fooling women who don’t even know what real masculinity looks like.
OIf course, if you do as some within the “game” community do and cast any form of not being a door mat as game [‘my wife was shrewish and I didn’t let her nag me – that’s “game”!’) then, sure – if you include standing up for yourself within an established marriage as “game” then sure – some few elements that people such as Heartiste claim to be part of “game” have merit.
But theologically we cannot separate ends from means or from motivations (when we can discern them); the ends of “game” are not the improvement of the character or faith of anyone involved; its means are deliberate deception and manipulation of others via fear, shame, and uncertainty; its original motivation was forniation
More broadly, “game” is a terrible idea anyway! Why? It is a tacit buy-in to the core conceits of Feminism.
Aquinas Dad:
I didn’t claim to speak for your church. I spoke in general terms. It is simply beyond all serious debate that most churches don’t teach anything like masculinity, whether you call it Godly masculinity, traditional masculinity, Old Testament masculinity, Game, or anything else.
Elspeth:
Your husband is a paragon of Godly masculinity. He’s also an extreme outlier.
“In fact, I suspect Marlon and GBFM are the same person, as Marlon writes a lot like GBFM when he steps “out of character.” I can’t see his internet I.P., so I’m just speculating, though.”
No, I am not GBFM. Very easy to verify that these days.
But it seems he is being piled on because some of his comments sting, because tender toes were stepped on.
(Interesting. If GBFM were a woman, would you all come down as hard?
And standing up for another man is so out of your experience that we must be the same person. Anyway check the ISPs).
If a man slanders you, you call him out on it, showing where he is wrong, not dodging, hiding, and asking Daddy Donal to tell the bad boy to stop troubling me.
When I was not a Christian, Christians used to witness to me. As a result I read the bible, cover to cover, and would challenge them. They ran away, all pious sounding, just as you do with GBFM.
MWcain makes a good point that most of us are missing: The only source of information on masculinity and how to be masculine which ANYONE is teaching is in the manosphere. There is such a thing as Godly masculinity, which is not the same as Game. But no one other than Cane Caldo and Dalrock talk about it. Joseph of Jackson tried it – he was excommunicated from his church.
Churches by and large don’t even know what masculinity is, much less Godly masculinity characterized by strength, courage, virtue, continence, and steadfastness. To most churches, Godly masculinity is “man up and marry the sluts”. It’s “step up and marry the single baby mama and be a dad to her thugspawn”. It’s “put down the video game controller, get an education and get a job to support a wife and kids”. It’s Mark Driscoll prancing around on a stage screeching “HOW DARE YOU!” and AMOGing the men in his congregation.
If the Church want men to be husbands and fathers, so they can raise and train the next generation of husbands and fathers, the Church has to teach them to be men FIRST, and has to fully support families doing so. If churches want to be the ones doing that, then they should get out the chapters and verses on what it means to be a man and start teaching them unflinchingly. The reason this discussion is even going on is because the churches have fallen down on this and given in to their feminist overlords. The reason this is going on is that the Joseph of Jacksons of the world get kicked out of their churches for trying to solve this problem.
And that’s why the Roissys , Rooshes and Krausers of the world are doing what Godly men should be doing.
Deti,
And I thought we were past this.
You seem to be conflating ‘deti’s personal experiences’ with ‘reality’. They are not the same thing. I’ve personally participated in or run men’s retreats that do, yes, teach men authentic masculinity. And there are discussions on the internet that do not derive from some Iranian-American bragging about how he has a lot of sex with shallow women.
Roissy, Roosh, etc. are doing what Godly men should *oppose* – using deceit in pursuit of immorality. If you think ‘manipulating women into having casual sex’ = ‘masculinity’ you are more proof of how wrong they are.
Yes, the ‘man up and marry the slut’ concept is foolish (of course, I have only ever heard it from men in the manosphere, personally) as is ‘let your wife walk all over you’. Of course, properly understood, neither is “game” since “game” isn’t about building a long, fruitful marriage, is it?
You’re upset – I get that. You think the handful of churches you have attended are effeminate – trust me, I get it. But! That doesn’t mean that no one besides a handful of guys with free blogs (many of whom talk about ‘rules of poon’ or some such in a serious manner) are all that is left. IN THE WORLD!!!!111!!!
And it is foolish to think so.
Aquinas Dad:
I’ll say this, and leave it at that.
This is not about my personal experience, nor about yours. If there are churches or ministries teaching authentic masculinity, they aren’t advertising themselves well and they are so few and far between as to be insignificant in number. If you can tell me where they are; I’d be happy to look into them.
As I said, it’s simply beyond any serious debate that Godly masculinity just isn’t taught in most churches. Most churches and their clueless leadership don’t even know what Godly masculinity is, much less how to impart it to boys and young men. But NACALT.
You seem to be proceeding from the assumption that teaching and instructing men on Godly masculinity is common. Is it? Really? If that’s the case, then why are we going on our third generation of wussified men coming out of North American churches? Why do we have a nationwide 38% divorce rate among professing Christians and 25% divorce rate among Roman Catholics? Why do we have Christian women wailing all over the place about why they can’t find good men?
If you’re correct, then why are we even having this conversation? All we need to do is go to one of the common places where Godly masculinity is taught, and the problem is solved. Right?
Aquinas Dad:
And by the way, “man up and marry the sluts” isn’t stated in that manner outright in North American churches. Of course no pastor or ministry leader is going to come out and say that. It comes out much more subtly.
“There are so many ‘great’ Christian women here who are 30 years old and up, and they can’t find any good men to marry. If you’re looking for a wife, you need to think about one of them, because you’re not to be unequally yoked.”
“Too many men are focusing too much on whether she’s a virgin and whether she’s sinned before. Those men are too judgmental and shallow.“
“You men need to deal with the logs in your own eyes before you try to remove the specks from those ladies’ eyes.”
“You men are shallow, thinking about her looks and her youth, and how “sexy” she is to you. So what if she’s carrying a lot of extra weight, or she’s had 15 sex partners before you? You need to look at her inner beauty.”
It is not the church’s job to teach “authentic” masculinity. That’s the job of fathers, grandfathers, extended family and other godly men. I submit that the only masculinity that exists is authentic. The rest of what we see is men governed by fear. Whether that fear is justified or not, it’s still sin to let fear dictate the choices we make
I agree wholeheartedly with one statement from Marlon: “If you are not prepared to rule, you are not prepared to marry.” And there is every Biblical support for making the choice not to marry.
It is the church’s job to equip the saints for the work of ministry (see Ephesians 4), whatever ministry looks like for each one of us. Whether it be family, church ministry, whatever, the church is to teach God’s word and support its members as they walk it out. Dating and courtship advice is not the church’s domain, and believers who marry are to be so committed to obedience to God’s commands concerning marriage that game is unnecessary and shown for the danger that it is.
For the record, I agree with Deti about the “man up and marry the sluts” thing. It is very subtle, but it’s definitely there.
Now whether or not it is acceptable to paint a redeemed sinner with the same brush as a woman still in the world and fornicating is another debate.
“It is not the church’s job to teach “authentic” masculinity. That’s the job of fathers, grandfathers, extended family and other godly men”
Guess you missed the “and has to fully support families doing so” part. LOL.
Those fathers, grandfathers, extended family and other godly men aren’t doing so because they have no support from the church, the law, the culture, or anywhere else. In fact all those things are stacked against them.
Agreed that dating/mating and courtship advice isn’t the church’s domain.
“It is the church’s job to equip the saints for the work of ministry (see Ephesians 4), whatever ministry looks like for each one of us.”
What churches are out there equipping the saints for ministering to men and bringing up the next generation of boys? What churches are out there equipping the saints to at least get out of the way and let the men teach the boys authentic masculinity? What churches are out there equipping the saints to at least have the women not involved in that process such that it won’t be corrupted?
How many women are “so committed to obedience to God’s commands concerning marriage that game is unnecessary”? There must be some, but I’ve yet to meet one in person, frankly. Such women all seem to have blogs and/or comment in and around the manosphere.
Deti,
Are you purposefully avoiding most of my points? Do you think writing,
“I’ll say this, and leave it at that”
Means you have the last word?
You continue to argue that ‘most churches’ bit which is, essentially, an argument from your personal ignorance. It might be true, it might not, but I am not the one repeating the phrase ‘it is beyond serious debate’ – why? because you don’t see it? Since I *do* see it in existence, doesn’t that mean your premise that it is beyond serious debate is false?
“You seem to be proceeding from the assumption that teaching and instructing men on Godly masculinity is common”
False – my *stated position* is that there is simply more of it than you imply; that is a big difference. And I find such things rather easy to fins… because I am part of that culture. Look for a local Latin Mass Catholic parish or mission, or; the Fraternitas Sacerdotis Sancta Petri; Regnum Christi; Rorate Caeli; the Legionaries of Christ; the Militia Immaculata; the Knights of Lepanto; the Knights of St. Maurice; even the SSPX. These are just the ones I have personally worked with (well, not the SSPX) that are jboth Catholic ones and have a presence in the Southeast.
Let’s toss in Promise Keepers (which is still around) and UPC Pentecostal churches – both are rather strong on the wife being submissive to the husband. The Surrendered Wife series has sold hundreds of thousands of copies worldwide and it advocates women submitting to their husbands, so it is the distaff side of the same coin.
So – as I said earlier, you are short changing a lot of men (and women) doing a lot of work that is, frankly, much more rounded, in-depth, and useful than “game”.
Your contention that,
“…the Roissys , Rooshes and Krausers of the world are doing what Godly men should be doing.”
Is either distracting and worthless hyperbole or a confession of your personal ignorance.
*THAT* is my point, and has been.
As for your quotes – attributions? I am genuinely curious as to who would say such things.
AD:
Promise Keepers? Seriously? I’ve been to three PK events. There is NOTHING said there about women’s submission. PK is all “man up”, all the time.
Pentecostal churches? No, they’re pretty much about women being in submission to “their” “Holy Spirits”. They’re about women being in submission to a husband if, and only if, the woman believes (or her pastor believes, or her friends believe) her husband is properly submitted to God – which is not what Ephesians 5 says.
Those fathers, grandfathers, extended family and other godly men aren’t doing so because they have no support from the church, the law, the culture, or anywhere else. In fact all those things are stacked against them.
I don’t follow. Forgive my obtuseness Deti but (stipulating that my husband’s family is unique in this regard), why does a family need the support of the law and the culture to train their boys from a young age to be men with strong frame?
Even support from the church isn’t absolutely necessary, as my husband was an unchurched a man as any I’d ever met. ( I take that back, because some of what he learned was quite problematic from a Christian standpoint.)
My point is that when the church was an integral part of the larger community and they were all connected outside of Sunday morning meetings, your assertion would be right. Sadly, it isn’t.
Furthermore, I don’t know that the church has ever been as important in the life of individuals as their families, making exceptions of course for true widows and orphans.
The church in America has dropped the ball on a lot of things, and I’m all for holding account for that. But it is the job of fathers to train their sons.
Too many Pentecostal churches have fallen victim to the false “prosperity”, “name it and claim it” gospels, which are particularly attractive to women and feminized men.
I am still musing on my thoughts. Not sure when the next post will come out. In the meantime, feel free to continue to contribute here.
Before then, a few quick thoughts:
– I think that Leap of a Beta was correct to note in the last post that much of this debate is over semantics. Should we really call what Heartiste does with what Keoni Galt or SAM does in their marriages the same thing? I don’t think so. We need new names to distinguish them.
– It isn’t really the role of the Church to teach Godly Masculinity. The problem is that many Churches do try and teach what they consider a Godly Masculinity, which is in fact neither Godly nor Masculine.
– @ Aquinas Dad, the whole “Man up and marry the sluts” thing is mostly a Protestant matter. Never seen it show up in Catholicism. And it is as much a problem now for truly reformed women as good men, because the unrepentant washed up harlots have infiltrated the churches and cannot be easily sifted from the prodigal daughters.
– I really need to acquaint myself with a church performing the Latin Mass. I haven’t had much luck finding a quality woman in the normal masses, so I need to shift my focus.
As for Heartiste and Roosh and those like them… I liken them to the role that the Babylonians played in God’s plan. They are wicked agents who serve to demonstrate our waywardness. A divine punishment, if you will. That they serve to show where we have gone wrong only goes to demonstrate how far we have fallen.
Elspeth…only one thing you agree with wholeheartedly? 🙂
“It isn’t really the role of the Church to teach Godly Masculinity.”
Yes it is. It has a role in forming us in the image of Christ which includes godly masculinity and femininity. To be sure, the primary role belongs to the father but it does have a role.
But it obviously isn’t playing it. Or we wouldn’t be seeing it and talking about it.
Cue the defense: my church/denomination/branch is special; all others are crap.
@ Donal
“It isn’t really the role of the Church to teach Godly Masculinity. The problem is that many Churches do try and teach what they consider a Godly Masculinity, which is in fact neither Godly nor Masculine.”
I disagree with the first part and agree with the second.
Godly masculinity, just as Godly Femininity, encompasses a person’s whole life. It’s not about dating and sex, its about helping men and women follow God’s path. That path is simply all encompassing of life. You yourself write about how chastity means more than just ‘not having sex.’
I’ll say that you’re right in that many churches seem to try to teach men, on what they consider masculine, and do so poorly. I haven’t seen poor teaching in Catholicism as of yet, and my own parish chugs along while slowly losing ground. In the places where I don’t see Masculinity valued I certainly see a lack of any teaching at all – particularly in large Norvus Ordo parish’s where the Dating life rules supreme. Where there’s not masculinity, femininity will fill the gaps, to the detriment of all.
@ Leap
As I think on it, you are right. Both the Church and parents must teach their children Godliness. The thing is, Godliness is different for men and women. If you try and teach real Godliness to a man, it will inherently have to be a masculine form of Godliness. For women it would have to be feminine. Anything else would, by virtue of its nature, not by Godly.
I too haven’t seen poor teaching in the Catholic Church with regards to this. At least, not like you see in Protestant churches. Rather, it is as you note, an absence of teaching. Although if you count teaching by example, then I see a lot of emasculated men in some of the churches I have attended.
@ Donal
“If you try and teach real Godliness to a man, it will inherently have to be a masculine form of Godliness. For women it would have to be feminine. Anything else would, by virtue of its nature, not by Godly.”
Yes.
Which is why it is so confoundingly difficult. A priest MUST be willing to step on toes – on both the mens and the womens, in equal amounts. If he doesn’t, the men generally will write off the women and priest, and/or the women will ignore the advice because they’re ‘so much better’ than the men.
Alternatively, and I think the best solution, is for the priest to make sure he supports and gives men additional responsibility and power to offset any lack of teaching directly addressing women – mostly by teaching men how they should be leading and what kind of behavior they should be receiving (and demanding if they’re not) from their wives. This would support head of household more, stop walking on eggshells, avoid the women writing off the priest’s sermon, and teach masculine and feminine Godliness to the whole parish.
Seriously, Marlon, give it up. I suggested the possibility that you and GBFM might be the same person because you write like he does when he steps out of character. I further specified that I cannot see your I.P. addresses, so it is not “easy” or even possible for me to tell whether you are or not. (And guess what? It’s possible to have more than one computer – many people do. When you condemn his obvious bearing of false witness I’ll grant that you’re probably not him: until then it remains an open question.) You write like he does, and you defend his crap. I notice that you are far more concerned about some of us men calling him out on his errors than you are about his bearing false witness and showering praise on the biggest “pick-up game” proponent of all. The only tender toes appear to be yours and the only person calling for the big boys to stop telling it like it is – is you. The very thought that GBFM could hold his own for ten minutes among knowledgeable and serious men is laughable. If you have something to say, say it without hiding behind his skirts.
“’I’ll say that you’re right in that many churches seem to try to teach men, on what they consider masculine, and do so poorly.”
Where I’ve been, all the teachers are women. Boys and girls are taught basic doctrine, together. So what happens is that girls are taught “Godly” “femininity”. Boys are taught the same thing; or a feminized version of something called Godly masculinity.
Perhaps there was something to separating the sexes for education – boys schools and girls schools.
And perhaps there is something to the notion that the Reformation was no such thing.
Elspeth your man sounds incredibly masculine and is obviously a strong leader. He could be used as a template of how to train boys into men!
Because of his natural frame, neither of you believe ‘game’ is being used or is necessary for any man to learn… but I would suggest that all the things your husband does on instinct due to the way he was raised IS the very thing that men are trying to understand and learn to replace for THEIR natural default settings.
For example you mention that you learned to be respectful towards him when he ignored your phone calls after speaking badly to him. The fact that he does this naturally is great, and yet it IS something beneficial for others to adopt. It doesn’t need to be called Dread Game, but it’s the same concept.
A quote from your husband:
“If me heading my house and refusing to let you and your craziness dictate things around here is game, well okay. Whatever. This is no games or strategy on my part. You’re just not gonna run over me. I take good care of you so when you cook my food, clean my house, and rub my back, you’re just doing what you’re supposed to do.”
Semantics aside, he is describing ‘game’ as discussed at Dalrock’s and eleswhere to a tee.
@Elspeth:
“…why does a family need the support of the law and the culture to train their boys from a young age to be men with strong frame?
Even support from the church isn’t absolutely necessary…”
Again, I would imagine that your entire family dynamic is very rare Elspeth. The example you wrote about your stepmother being told to stop complaining by your husband is not common. That he told her she’s just doing what she’s supposed to do is unusual, and even more so is your father adding his agreement and request for a glass of orange juice!
Sounds like your whole family has a culture of it’s own that is powerful enough to resist the pressure of societal norms. But most families are not this strong.
Imagine how much more confidently Christian parents would be in disciplining their children following Biblical instruction if the law of the land hadn’t made corporal punishment illegal.
To me, this is similar to how most men operate within their homes unless they have been raised with tremendous courage. The law is against them, societal norms are against them, social propoganda is against them, the empowered herd is against them, even the church is against men having authority.
Now imagine the same majority of men instead being encouraged to operate out of a position of strength, leadership, and dominance by all those spheres of influence. It’s a very different picture.
@Elspeth:
“…game is wholly unnecessary. Not only because a truly devout wife doesn’t need it, but because a strong godly man doesn’t either.”
Last thought from me… I’m sure that your husband just IS ‘game’!
(or a better more godly word to substitute, perhaps Sophroneo as Lyn87 describes)
You appear to be a devout wife and in all your writings you exhibit adoration, devotion, desire, gratefulness and thankfulness towards your husband. I admire you for this. But I still think how your husband just IS contributes towards your marriage dynamic immensely.
Rather than thinking your husband proves game is unnecessary, I think much can be learned from sharing anecdotes of the way your husband interacts with you – it could help out a lot of men who were not so blessed as to be raised as Masculine Leaders.
Blessings in Yeshua,
Hannah