Godly Masculinity Versus Game

In the comment section of my latest post Leap of Beta, who makes his home at Staged Reality, left what I thought was an insightful comment. Reading it helped solidify some thoughts that I hadn’t been able to settle enough that I could include them in that post. Given how long it already was, I’ve decided to write a new post to lay them out. I am going to track his comment somewhat through my post, so lets begin with this paragraph:

The problem where semantics come in is that there is a very, VERY big difference between Godly Masculinity and Game, yet Dalrock and Vox lump them together. Heartiste does not. I’ve written before about the difference between temptation vs attraction. Temptation is the heart of Game, attraction is the heart of Christian Masculinity; though I actually would go farther and call it Adoration. My reason for this is that the reactions I’ve seen of women to Christian masculinity is a strong mirroring of the adoration a Christian woman will give to God.

One way of reading Leap’s comment is that Godly Masculinity and Game are two very different things. Here is a visual representation of this:

Game and Godly Masculinity ApartIn this model, the two have nothing in common. This is the preferred model of most opponents of Game around the manosphere.

Leap then followed up that paragraph with this sentence:

It should be noted that many, -MANY- of the things game advocates fall in line with those patriarchal teachings.

This provides a different potential visual representation of the two:

Game and Godly Masculininity IntersectUnder this model, there is a certain amount of commonality between the two. The graphic itself isn’t exact, the overlap I included (the part in green) was merely to show that there were some areas of compatibility. This model is the one which Christian advocates of Game seem to have adopted.

Much of the debate from my last post centers around which model is correct. If Model 1 is correct, then Christians should have nothing to do with Game. If Model 2 is is correct, then Christians should be trying to determine just where the “green zone” is located. Before trying to resolve this debate, I want to go back to Leap’s comment. The part that I initially overlooked, but has intrigued me since, is this:

I’ve written before about the difference between temptation vs attraction. Temptation is the heart of Game, attraction is the heart of Christian Masculinity; though I actually would go farther and call it Adoration. My reason for this is that the reactions I’ve seen of women to Christian masculinity is a strong mirroring of the adoration a Christian woman will give to God.

I initially dismissed Leap’s thoughts here because Attraction is a critical component of Game, not just Christian Masculinity. Because of this, I didn’t give his ideas on Temptation any real thought. But as I was writing this response, I realized that he was on to something. I don’t think his initial statement was correct for the reason I mentioned above, but it provides the kernel of thought necessary to germinate a full concept. You see, both Attraction and Temptation lie at the heart of Game. Not one or the other. Both reside there, although in different ways (as I will explain shortly). As for Christian or Godly Masculinity, Attraction and Adoration are to be found at its heart. [The concept of Adoration seems fairly similar to my thoughts on Desire, although I don’t think that they are an exact match.]

For Game, Temptation is the second step. The first step is to generate Attraction. Once a woman is attracted, then you can tempt her. Or perhaps a different word is appropriate: seduce. Many Game advocates in fact recommend a three stage model:

1) The Attraction Phase

2) The Comfort Phase

3) The Seduction Phase

(One example is found here.)

To tie this in what what I and Leap have mentioned before, “Step 1” is a combination of the Attraction Phase and the Comfort Phase. Personally, I think that they are an unnecessary attempt to distinguish between the two. Both involve attraction, with the nature of the attraction moving from more appearance or status based to more emotion based over time. Once Attraction is taken care of, then you can move to the Seduction phase, or what Leap deemed Temptation.

As for Godly Masculinity, you start off in a similar way: by building Attraction. Once you have established Attraction, then you can lead things towards Adoration. Unlike the unbridled lust or the lure of the forbidden fruit found in Game’s seduction/temptation, Adoration is based off a God-fearing woman’s acknowledgment of a man’s righteous character and her respect of him for it. Whereas a woman who is tempted with Game merely wants to sleep with the man tempting her, a Godly woman who adores a man wants to follow him, to join herself to him and his mission/cause.

From this perspective we can see where Game and Godly Masculinity are “compatible”: the generation of attraction. However, both take very divergent paths once you have achieved the necessary level of attraction. Although I think that they actually may share an even earlier frame of reference, if you will. By that I mean that “Frame” is something that is a component of both Game and Godly Masculinity at an even more base level than attraction. Perhaps the best way of visualizing this is as a pyramid. Lets start with Game:

Game as a PyramidMasculine Frame forms the base of pyramid. Everything starts with that; forming a Dominant Masculine Frame is the first step in the whole process. In fact, it is so elemental it must be established before a man even approaches a woman. After Frame is established a man can approach a woman and begin step two, which is the building of Attraction. After sufficiently building Attraction, a man can then move to the third and final step, Temptation. Moving on to Godly Masculinity, we can see that it looks fairly similar:

Godly Masculinity as a PyramidThe only obvious differences is the pinnacle of the pyramid. Temptation has been replaced by adoration. However, I think there are probably some base differences (no pun intended) in how Masculine Frame works between the two. Even if there aren’t, these two new models provide us with a better understanding of how Game and Godly Masculinity interact. We can see that the intersection between the two is found in generating attraction, and in some measure in Masculine Frame.

All of which leads to the major question waiting to be resolved:

Is it possible to separate the Attraction aspects of Game from its Temptation aspects?

In other words, are the tools which are designed to generate Attraction so intrinsically linked to Temptation that they cannot be used apart from those purposes? If this is the case, then Great Books For Men and other opponents of Game are correct- it has no place in Christian circles. On the other hand, if the tools to generate Attraction and Temptation are different, then it stands to reason that Christians who wish to advance Godly Masculinity can appropriate the tools to generate Attraction for their own, holier ends. A similar analysis can also be applied to Masculine Frame as well, although I think that it is sufficiently different from the two stages that the same ethical concerns are not implicated.

As a final thought, if one uses Leap’s definitions for Game and Godly Masculinity, or at least his understanding of how they work, then there really isn’t any room for Christian men to “Game their wives”. Temptation has no place in marriage, and since Game inherently involves Temptation, Christians must eschew it. Of course, that just gets us back to the original point of Leap’s comment, which is that much of our struggle here is over semantics. So rather than argue over what is and isn’t game, we can instead direct our efforts to answering the question I raised above.

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176 Comments

Filed under Attraction, Christianity, Desire, Masculinity, Men, Red Pill, Sex, Women

176 responses to “Godly Masculinity Versus Game

  1. Lyn87

    Donalgraeme,

    We’ve run across each other on other blogs, but this is my first time here. I wrote quite a bit on the Christian answer to “game” on Dalrock’s “Who Loves Better” post today. I posit that “game” is a counterfeit for the Godly attribute of “sophroneo.” That’s the word in the Greek New Testament that Paul used when he was advising Titus on how to counsel young men. I won’t get into a bunch of details here and now, as you can see them for yourself over at Dalrock’s.

    Sophroneo is to “game” as real combat is to HALO. Why would a Christian man settle for a cheap knock-off for worldly boys (“game”), when he can have the real thing that is available to Godly men (sophroneo)?

  2. Hello Lyn

    Actually, you have posted here once before, back in June. Not surprising you forgot given the time lapse.

    I read your comments over there on sophroneo, and thought they were interesting. To use the models I’ve constructed for this post, I think sophroneo works to help a man build a proper Masculine Frame, and perhaps to help with Adoration. But it doesn’t provide the full set of skills/tools/understanding for Attraction that Game provides. This is because man of those tools are the result of studying women and what makes them tick, while sophroneo is founded on a man’s internal soundness or sense of self-control. It is internal, and that is very, very useful. No doubt of it. But it can’t replicate the effects of understanding what a fitness test is, or how to beat it. Or teach you about Agree and Amplify.

    Personally, I think it should serve as the base for building up a Godly Masculinity, but it can’t do everything by itself.

  3. Here’s my issue:

    Game is based on Pride. Beginning, middle, and end. It is a seeping rot infecting the whole thing. All of game is based on Machiavellian principles – the dark triad. It is not that there aren’t truths there; it’s that the truths there are truths of the Dark Gods of the Blood (a term I will absolutely steal from Lewis). The power of Game begins in the areas that it has overlapping with Christianity, and corrodes your frame of Christian Masculinity to simply Masculinity. It will harden your heart.

    In this way, it is much like false religions. False religions have their power in where they overlap truths with Christian teachings to seduce people into belief, and then giving them power based on the falsehoods of the belief. If you buy into demons affecting the world (I do) you can also ascribe some of that power to demons’ seduction.

    As such, even if their are truths that overlap, why would you ever, EVER want to see how much power of the Dark Gods you can shoe horn into Christian doctrine? Inevitably you’ll get false interpretations, rationalize where one should avoid altogether, and welcome with open arms thy persecutors.

    Instead, start with the Bible, Christian doctrine, the teachings of the church. See what they can teach about Christian Masculinity and frame (it’s a great deal) and then be -exclusive- about what you learn from the world rather than trying to be inclusive to see what can fit. We discuss every day how awful it was of our forefathers to destroy Marriage 1.0 and lose sight of Christianity for favor of Churchianity – yet it is the same impulse to include teachings because they’re easy, they feel right, and they’re mostly true that led to our undoing.

    We need to steadfastly hold to the truth that is given to us by God, and be wary of using outside influences to find his truth rather than finding his truth to then accept or condemn outside influences.

  4. I forgot to say:

    As such, I think that of the two models the top one is correct not because there are not overlapping truths, but that because there are overlapping truths we should steadfastly and militantly separate out those that follow The Truth from those that Deceive and Seduce.

    I apply this belief to Game worshipers as well as to Churchians. They both deceive and seduce – they merely have different a different syllabus of indoctrination.

    Failure to separate the two will inevitably lead to the contamination of moral values in regards to the courtship process as it will become a thing of Pride for men, where as right now it is a thing of Pride for women. I can’t honestly say that it would be any less destructive of problematic, simply that the issues and problems would serve men’s temptations and desires better than the current system which caters to the temptations and desires of women.

  5. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Long story short, if Game were a part of Christianity, how come Jesus Christ never taught it?

    It is quite hilarious witnessing the fanboy churchians denying Jesus and Moses and trying to rewrite the Bible in their own gamey image, just because they worship gina tinzgzgzlzlzozozoz instead of Moses, Jesus, and God, and prefer poon to Truth and Beauty.

  6. John

    Interesting points, but I would ask another question. Can temptation lead to a godly marriage?

    Does apostle Paul not say, if you have too much temptation it is better to marry? And the old testament laws about marriage and adultery, do they not say two people must marry if a man takes a woman virginity (is. Sex outside of marriage= temptation)

    In each case of sexual temptation is it the recommended route by god and apostle Paul to marry?

    Was not David tempted by Bathsheba? Of course he was punished, but he still lived a godly life and was blessed with a son like King Solomon. Meanwhile what was the name of that guy who stood by his “Godly masculinity” and served the king sent by God? Oh right, not many people remember even his name. The man giving into temptation was written into the lineage of Solomon and Jesus. Shows the grace of god is immense. Also blows apart the whole temptation has no place in marriage.

  7. I said before you can be a patriarch or you can be a cad, but you can’t be both at the same time.

  8. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Donal Graeme bares more false witness against da GBFM:

    “If this is the case, then Great Books For Men and other opponents of Game are correct- it has no place in Christian circles. ”

    Da GBFM is not an opponent of GAME.

    Da GBFM is simply stating that Jesus Christ did not teach Game.

    The Lord Jesus Christ teaches us to serve the exalted values of the Lordm not the gina craving strategies of Donal Graeme.

    Donal, just because you lust after women in church and wish to serve their gina tinzgzlloozlz instead of the LAW OF MOSES which JESUS CAME TO FULFILL does not make you Christlike, no matter what Dalrcok tells you,

  9. Stopping by between bouts of baby duty to say that I am so glad you wrote this, Donal. It behooves us to question every “wisdom” of the world and accept or discard it based not on its usefulness, but its godliness. And I think some people have forgotten that the world is at war with us, as is, unfortunately, everyone who belongs to it, whether they mean to be or not. If they can’t kill us outright, they’ll poison us to death or subvert us.

  10. Donal, this is a good post, very clear and well written.
    As with everything else in life, I think we should see if it aligns with the Bible and we should also pray for direction.

    This is a difficult topic, as I know it is sensitive subject to criticize as I can speak only from a woman’s perspective, I understand the difficulties of men in the West now in their search for wives. And game tactics DO work to build attraction. But in my opinion, when looking for a wife, there needs to be much more than just attraction on her part, there needs to be a heart that it trusting and believing in the Lord, and who is against divorce and FOR a Biblical marriage. Building a marriage only on shallow attraction is like building a house upon the sand. We are all human, and we falter sometimes, what happens if a man cannot “maintain frame” at some point? A man needs a woman who can love and obey him even when he is at his weakest.

    I understand the NEED for Game in western culture, but I also think we should remember “Take up your cross and follow Me”. We are called to surrender, and dye to self. A lot of women will not see the beauty in a man who is following the Bible, but this reflects more on their character and not on the man’s. As far as I am concerned, it is a woman’s loss if she is unable to appreciate a Godly man. Some women do want this though, and I know it’s not easy to find one in the current day, but if it’s God’s will for a man to marry, he will find a suitable wife, or present an alternative vocation.

    I know men here, who naturally have what would be considered “game”. It’s not game in the sense of “negs” and arrogance. It is a natural product of being a strong, Godly Christian man. I know that might seem hard to believe for some of you, but men are in charge of their households, they are patriarchs, not because they learnt game, but because it is expected of them, they understand from Scripture and our Orthodox teachings how men must be. God is first in their lives, and they are called to lead their wives, lovingly – but still they are the men and they are in charge. Orthodox Teachings have not changed or “adapted” to the times in this regard.
    Not all women are attracted to such men, but women who’s heart is in the LORD have more than an attraction, they have adoration, as you put it. As we grow as Christians, what is beautiful to us changes, our perception of what is good changes. To counteract the affects of culture, we renew our minds every day with the Word.

    The real danger is when men no longer are learning how to be men from the Bible, they are learning that wives need not submit to husbands, they are learning that they are not the head of the family. That this is “outdated”. This really messes things up and the power dynamic get’s twisted, hence the dysfunctional relation between men and women, and the seeming need for game in modern day.
    I think it’s better to wait on the Lord than marry a woman who you fear will divorce and take children. Of course we can never be 100% sure, but that’s where taking a leap of faith comes in.

  11. I’ll also add.. some women needing a stronger man with stronger “frame” is nothing new I believe. Some women are naturally more defiant than others. I think this is something natural, but when women focus on God, He strengthens us to overcome natural urges/behavior. The Word changes us. The natural feeling to something wouldn’t change, as yes, women are indeed all women. But Christianity teaches us to be disciplined. We all have a responsibilities, men and women.. we don’t just shirk our duties because we “feel like it”. Even if a woman is not feeling like following her husband in a moment, she still has a duty to. This is dying to self. A woman’s primal reactions/feelings are one thing, rising above it in Christ is another.
    We don’t want to marry people who follow only feral instincts causing us to constantly stress and feel “Is my frame strong enough”, “should I neg her?” etc etc. How exhausting that would be for a man. and vice versa if women had to play a similar game. My heart goes out to men living in a culture where it seems this is prerequisite.

    Regarding men, I believe it is more about men reclaiming their masculinity, not learning game. It will be obvious to some women whether a man is being authentic or not in his masculinity. For example, a man once approached with what I concluded to be a “neg” – well as a sensitive person I was quite upset. Then I thought to myself about it, and I thought maybe he just had poor self esteem, and felt the need to overcompensate his unsureness in self, by “negging” .
    An air or arrogance in a person really is unpleasant, we all must strive to be humble. And when a man can be humble even while exuding masculine strength, it is really is lovely, and fruit of the Holy Spirit.

    Wow, sorry that was all a bit long and rambling.

  12. Oops.. One more comment.. sorry.. I just remember something relevant!

    I know one man, Greek Orthodox, age 30, who married a woman from Ukraine, she was a single mother, in her mid twenties, a little defiant, hadn’t had an easy life, but she was very beautiful.
    One year after they were married, I went to see her. I was in amazement how he had changed her. She was an attentive loving, quiet housewife. And he was very happy with her, I heard him tell another man. She was very calm, and she never ever answered back to him, she adored him. It was amazing. Now they have another baby, they are happy.
    This just goes to show how a strong Christian man can change a woman for the better.

  13. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Could one of you Churchian Fanboys please cite the chapter and verse where Jesus teaches game?

    I know that you think that Dalrock and Voix are greater than our Lord Jesus Christ, and that The Law of Moses, whcih Jesus came to fulfill is irrelevant, but all the same, could one of you Churchian Fanboys please cite the chapter and verse where Jesus teaches game?

  14. What do you consider Jesus’s conversations with the Samaritan woman at the well and with Mary Magdeline?

  15. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    OMG! Now a Voxian/Dalrockian is claiming that Our Lord Jesus Christ used his Word to Game Women and make their Butts and Ginas go tinzgzzlzlozzzo.

    O Jerusalem Jerusalem! Is there no hope for this wicked generation?

  16. Haha, I merely asked. You choose to interpret in such a way.
    Jesus was the ultimate Alpha and Omega.

    I do agree with your post how a true Christian woman should not need to be Gamed.

  17. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Dear ar10308,

    Dalrock states that Christians need Game.

    http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/08/06/why-christians-need-game/

    “Why Christians need game.”

    You, ar10308, state that true Christian woman should not need to be gamed.

    Are you stipulating that Dalrock’s wife is not a true Christian?

  18. Lyn87

    Allow me to go back to sophroneo, if I may. Over at Dalrock’s, a commenter called “Random Angeleno” asked me to expound on the concept. Rather than re-invent the wheel I’ll just paste in what I wrote there before I go on.

    The Greek word σωφρονέω (sōphroneō) appears about a half-dozen times in the New Testament. It has various nuances, but it generally has to do with self-composure and a sound mind. To a degree, it may be thought of as the opposite of the Greek word μανία (mania), which means to be out of one’s mind. But the connotation is more than mere sanity, but of having thoroughly mastered oneself from the inside out: thoughts, passions, emotions, habits, and the physical self under the firm control of the individual.

    In the book of Titus, Chapter 2, Paul advises Titus (who was a young pastor) on how to deal with various groups of people in his congregation. There were older and younger men, and older and younger women. Paul gave Titus a list of things to stress with each group. All the groups got some form of instruction to be of sound mind. Young women got the longest list, but the list for young men contained only a single item: sophroneo.

    A young man who exhibits a well-developed sophroneo is one who will signal confidence, as well as stability and maturity. Such a man is no wimp – and he is prepared to lead, and lead well. It demonstrates that the man has both what young women find attractive in a man (confidence and leadership) and what they need in a husband (stability and maturity). It is to possess the confidence of an “alpha” without the falsity of the PUA, along with the stability of a “beta” without the simpering and pandering.

    It is possible to pervert the good things of God into vices. Fornication is a sinful perversion of matrimonial sex, for example. Gluttony is a perversion of hunger, for another. The list goes on – Dante Alighieri was much better at this than I am.

    I would posit that “game” is a perversion of the Godly attribute of sophroneo. The most effective lies are 99% true, and “game” is a pretty convincing counterfeit of sophroneo. Does “game” occasionally work? Sure it does. “Game” works, to a limited extent, because women respond to sophroneo, and “game” mimics some aspects of sophroneo. That’s fine for guys who want to pick up bar skanks with no regard for their eternal destination, but for a Christian man, “game” is just silly. Why would a man who has access to the real thing (sophroneo) resort to a cheap knock-off (“game”)?

    There is certainly overlap between “game” and sophroneo, just as there is overlap between rape and love-making, or between murder and lethal self-defense. The fact that the bad mimics some aspects of the good does not mean that we need to chuck the good – it means that Satan knows how to subtly counterfeit the good things of God: A little leaven leaveneth the whole loaf. It’s the differences that matter – and we need to make sure not to add in the “leaven.” “Game” overlaps sophroneo because it is designed to. That doesn’t mean that the areas where they overlap are bad – it means that the counterfeit mimics the original.

    A woman does not cease to be a woman when she becomes a Christian. Quite the contrary, in fact – only a Christian woman can experience full womanhood as God intended. The reason “game” works to the degree that it does is because a real, Spirit-led woman can naturally respond to sophroneo, while an unregenerate, self-led woman will fall for the cheap counterfeit: “game.”

    I would posit that the pyramids miss the point to a degree. A Spirit-led man with sophroneo will go through life exuding the “Masculine Frame” of sophroneo. Perhaps one or more women will respond to it with attraction (or lust – sluts are women, too, and can fall hard and fast for a guy with it. Trust me on this.) But the man who possesses sophroneo will not marry in mania, even though the slut offers her flesh right off the bat.

    But the Spirit-led man who possesses sophroneo is “content in whatsoever state he finds himself in.” And when a suitable Christian woman comes along and is sufficiently attracted to him, things may proceed apace. Once they get married, nothing needs to change. Unlike the various flavors of “game”, there is no Day sophroneo, or Married sophroneo, or Dread sophroneo, or Dark Triad sophroneo, or Micro sophroneo, or Macro sophroneo, or Bar sophroneo, or… you get the idea. Sophroneo is – by it’s very nature – steady… constant.

    Sophroneo is a core attribute of the man’s personality. “Masculine Frame” is not something one turns on-and-off, like “game.” It just IS. There is certainly no need to “game” one’s wife. If you have to “game” your wife, one or both of you is doing something wrong.

  19. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Dear Lyn87,

    In addition to prattling on about non sequitors, could you please cite the chapter and verse where Jesus teaches game?

    I know that you think that Dalrock and Voix are greater than our Lord Jesus Christ, and that The Law of Moses, whcih Jesus came to fulfill is irrelevant, but all the same, could one of you Churchian Fanboys please cite the chapter and verse where Jesus teaches game?

    Lyn87, please cite the chapter and verse where Jesus teaches game.

    Or are you saying that you know more about Christianity than Jesus Christ?

  20. Game is a tool of the Flesh. We live in the flesh and that is why Paul says we should be married.

    Game is not a tool by which I would judge one’s faith or salvation.

  21. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Dear ar10308,

    A dildo is a tool of the flesh. We live in the flesh and that is why Paul says we should be married. Should married Christian couples use dildos to serve gina tingzzlzlozo?

    “A dildo is not a tool by which I would judge one’s faith or salvation.” -ar10308

    Also, ar10308, what do you find so troubling about Moses’ and Jesus’ definition of marriage that you must deny the LAW OF Moses and Jesus while exalting Paul alone?

  22. Lyn87

    GBFM,

    What is the world are you talking about? Jesus never taught Game, or anything even close to it – nor did I even imply it. Quite the opposite, in fact.

    What I said was that we are told to cultivate sophroneo in Titus, Chapter 2. “Game” is a worldly counterfeit of sophroneo, and thus the vice (“game”) mimics some aspects of the virtue (sophroneo). Just as fornication mimics aspects of matrimonial sex, or as assault mimics aspects of justified self-defense.

    Just read what I wrote – not everyone writes in riddles like you do.

  23. A dildo acts as a third party in the marriage, where no third parties should be. A husband Gaming his wife is not bringing a third party into the marriage.

    The Law of Moses was fulfilled by Christ and that fulfillment frees us from the consequences of it.

  24. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    ar10308 states, “The Law of Moses was fulfilled by Christ and that fulfillment frees us from the consequences of it.”

    loozoz so you are saying that you churchian fanboyz can lie, cheat, murder, steal, and game with dildoes, without consequence.

    it makes sense now, why you would wish to ban and censor the Word of Jesus Christ while worshipping at the altar of gamey butt and gina tizngzzlzloozoz.

  25. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Lyn87 writes, “fornication mimics aspects of matrimonial sex . . . assault mimics aspects of justified self-defense.”

    There you have it folks. To the Chruchian fanboy,

    fornication = matrimonial sex
    assault = self-defense
    freedom = slavery
    war = peace
    game = Christianity
    serving a woman’s butt and gina tninzgzzlzlzozozo = serving Christ
    fulfiling the Law of Dalrock & Vox = fulfilling the Law of Moses
    Paul + Timothy lecturing on butt tinglzolzozo > Christ + Moses lecturing on Godliness

    zlolzozozozoz

  26. Lyn87

    GBFM,

    Put down the crack-pipe, duuuuuuude. You have taken what I wrote in plain English and have decided that I mean the exact opposite of it.

    Since yesterday I wrote seven posts at Dalrock’s and three posts here where I referred to sophroneo (which appears about a half-dozen times in the New Testament – including the Gospel of Matthew). That word is always used to convey the proper state of mind, and is specifically touted as an attribute young men should cultivate. I also mentioned “game” in those same posts – and in every one of those ten posts I said it was bad – a perversion of the godly attribute of sophroneo.

    I’m going to be honest with you: when I first came to the manosphere a few years ago and saw your stuff I thought you were an idiot with all your lozzllzoozlzollzllz‘s and butthex‘s and bernakified soulzzlozlzlz. Then I saw you come out of character once or twice and thought you might just have a weird (albeit largely ineffective) way of expressing yourself.

    Now here you are, looking at post after post where I say that “game” is a satanic counterfeit of a Godly attribute – a counterfeit that no Cristian man should use, and you keep insisting that I’m saying the exact opposite. Was I right the first time?

  27. Jesus said
    17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

    Paul discusses it in Galations 3.

  28. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Dear ar10308,

    Dalrock states that Christians need Game.

    http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/08/06/why-christians-need-game/

    “Why Christians need game.”

    You, ar10308, state that true Christian woman should not need to be gamed.

    Are you stipulating that Dalrock’s wife is not a true Christian?

  29. I understand the implication.

    Christian Women are still beholden to the Flesh. Just like Christian men are still aroused by a sexy female body. God created these needs of the flesh and a way for us to fulfill them righteously.
    A Christian’s propensity towards sin and failure does not preclude them from being a Christian.

  30. Pingback: Thoughts on Marriage and Game | Donal Graeme

  31. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Dear ar10308,

    Christian Women are still beholden to the Flesh, and now and then may wish to abort their baby to save money to serve their fleshy needs/buy more shoes. Is murder just as Christian as Game, or is it more Christian, according to you?

    You write, “A Christian’s propensity towards sin and failure does not preclude them from being a Christian.” so if a Christian lies, murders, and steals, they will still go to heaven as a Christian, according to you?

    No wonder you love dildos!

  32. mwcain

    GBFM,

    As Jesus states, His mission in coming to earth is to:
    “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.” – Luke 4:18-4:19

    He did not come to teach game. However, nor did Jesus come to teach geometry, but that does not necessarily mean we throw out geometry as a truth, or as something important. It is quite essential for engineers and scientists to know.

    As for the Bible in itself teaching “Game” like information, I think we can take a look at the books of wisdom: Proverbs, Song of Songs, Psalms, and Ecclesiastes. I haven’t read these books thoroughly for Game items, but in general they teach a more masculine frame: Proverbs – what is wise a good; Song of Songs – what attraction looks like and what to do with it; Psalms – The hope and yearning for God and what a righteous man does; Ecclesiastes – what is worthwhile to pursue.

    I agree that we should look first to what the Bible teaches about these subjects, but we would be mistaken if the Bible teaches everything we need to know about life in it. It is God’s story, not our story. It is there to teach us about the story of God and to give us a glimpse of the essentials in serving him. It doesn’t tell us to hold the hand of our grandmother while she lay dying. We do that because we want to show her love. Similarly, it doesn’t teach us how to secure a mate. We have to figure that out.

    If we didn’t lose 2+ generations of manliness in our culture, we wouldn’t be in the situation we’re in right now. Men fundamentally do not understand how to attract women. Women fundamentally do not understand how to attract men. PUAs do. Sluts do. However, let us not act like the PUA and confuse that as righteousness. But let’s not condemn everything the PUA does as unrighteousness. Just like I may think a math professor to be a foolish atheist but that doesn’t mean I’ll declare everything he says as meaningless and silly.

    Do you understand GBFM? Let us figure out what being a man means by looking at the Bible and observing successful manly men. Let us ask God for wisdom and carefully discern what is good and what is not in these successful men. Let us adopt the geometry they teach and leave the corrupt philosophy behind. We are grown men, I think we can eat the meat without choking on the bones.

    -Matthew

  33. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Jesus Christ Exalted the Law of Moses, not Dalrock / Vox Gamey Game. More Gamey Churchians Threaten to Ban and Censor the Words of Da GBGM for Quoting Jesus Christ and Honoring THE LAW OF MOSES Over Gamey Churchian Butt and Gina Tingalalozozzoozzo

    Churchians have no shame and deserve every divorce/broken marriage they get. Their failed gamey crusade shall soon be forgotten, while the Christ and Moses they castigated, ignored, belittled, censored, and impugned shall Rise Again and Serve the Rising Generation who honors the Law of Moses and our Lord Jesus Christ over gamey game and gina tiznzgzlzlozozozo.

    “Those who live by the tingzlzozozozozl shall die by the tingzlzlzozozlzoz” -GBFM

    http://greatbooksformen.wordpress.com/2013/12/29/jesus-christ-exalted-the-law-of-moses-not-dalrock-vox-gamey-game-more-gamey-churchians-threaten-to-ban-and-censor-the-words-of-da-gbgm-for-quoting-jesus-christ-and-honoring-the-law-of-moses-over-g/

  34. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Dear Matthew, could or one of the Churchian Fanboys please cite the chapter and verse where Jesus teaches game?

    I know that you think that Dalrock and Vox are greater than our Lord Jesus Christ, and that The Law of Moses, which Jesus came to fulfill is irrelevant, but all the same, could one of you Churchian Fanboys please cite the chapter and verse where Jesus teaches game?

  35. mwcain

    GBFM,

    I have read many of the articles you have responded to and I frequently thought you asked important questions that can serve to bring people back to the root of their beliefs – do we worship game/creation or the creator?

    However, you are acting like a pedant, and you know it. Instead of actually reading my comment and responding to it intelligently, you are choosing instead to behave less than what you are and act the fool – squawking a phrase over and over again in the parody of wisdom and discourse.

    I will not answer again what I have already answered. And leave off the assumptions of my beliefs, it is unbecoming.

    -Matthew

  36. Lyn87

    Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    December 29, 2013 at 4:26 PM
    Could one of you Churchian Fanboys please cite the chapter and verse where Jesus teaches game?
    _________
    December 29, 2013 at 4:58 PM
    Dear Lyn87,
    In addition to prattling on about non sequitors, could you please cite the chapter and verse where Jesus teaches game? …
    … Lyn87, please cite the chapter and verse where Jesus teaches game.
    _________

    December 29, 2013 at 7:15 PM
    Dear Matthew, could or one of the Churchian Fanboys please cite the chapter and verse where Jesus teaches game?

    Dear GBFM,

    Please cite the post where anyone in this thread said that Jesus teaches game. For that matter, please cite where anyone in this thread excuses murder or theft, or equates sin with righteousness. Since you’re so keen on citations, perhaps you should look up scriptural references to “bearing false witness.”

    You might find it enlightening.

  37. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Dear Lyn87 & Matthew,

    Dalrock states that Christians need Game.

    http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/08/06/why-christians-need-game/
    “Why Christians need game.”

    Could you, Dalrock, or one of the Churchian Fanboys please cite the chapter and verse where Jesus teaches game or states that “Christians need game”?

  38. Masculine is masculine. It is part of a man. How it is built and used defines which “pyramid” one will have. The concept of game is based on the philosophy of fornication, and is detrimental to marriage. Marriage is a commitment; commitments are not based on emotions – emotions change. Adoration from a woman should not be built on top of attraction, it should be built on top of the manhood of the man. Commitment should then be built on top of the adoration. Once the proper foundation of a relationship is build, the correct flow and design of attraction and desire will almost build themselves.
    No matter what the construction, whether of software or wood or relationships, proper preparation and design makes the job at hand nearly effortless.

  39. jack

    To the extent that recognizing shit tests is “game”, I think that is a valuable skill for Christian men and secular men alike.

  40. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Jack writes, “To the extent that recognizing shit tests is “game”, I think that is a valuable skill for Christian men and secular men alike.”

    Where does Jesus say that “shit tests are a valuable skill for Christian men”?

    Also, I thought that donalgraeme was opposed to cusswords and profanity?

  41. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Donalgraeme states that Christians must game.

    https://donalgraeme.wordpress.com/2013/12/28/thoughts-on-marriage-and-game/

    donalgraeme writes, “IV. Conclusion
    It cannot be denied that before the advent of Marriage 2.0, it wasn’t necessary for Christian men to have to Game their wives. Nor did they face an environment which was set up to ruin marriage as much as possible. Unfortunately, we do live in the Marriage 2.0 regime now, and Christian men must adapt to the times. Those Christian men who take their chances in marriage must use whatever methods of maintaining control in their marriage are available, with Game being one of the few things still left in the toolbox.”

    Donalgraeme states that Christians must game, thusly trying to exile, trump, and recrucify Christ..

    Could Donalgraeme, Dalrock, or one of the Churchian Fanboys please cite the chapter and verse where Jesus teaches game or states that “Christians must game.”?

  42. Lyn87

    GBFM,

    What’s with the “Churchian Fanboy” stuff? You’re the one who keeps using the llolz-bernakified-zzlozlz-fiat-llozl-butthextual-llzzozlzoz stuff all the time. You speak as a child – perhaps it’s time for you to “put away childish things (I Cor 13:11) if you want adults to take you seriously.

    So Dalrock is wrong about “game.” Why don’t you take it up with him instead of us, since none of us are defending that position? I’ve written against “game” over at Dalrock’s blog. Maybe if you dropped the gibberish and wrote like a grown man you might convince someone. Or maybe go over to Chateau and slam your hero over there – see how well that goes. After all, he’s a big proponent of game – specifically to pick up sluts.

  43. mwcain

    Donal,

    To answer your question, “Is it possible to separate the Attraction aspects of Game from its Temptation aspects?”

    I think so. Of course, I would want to see a list of what is attraction and what is temptation to dig into it. I think one can show themselves as attractive and all that goes with it (the LAMPS), while keeping it from seduction. Keeping it clean, as it were. No kino game, no sexual talk. Just straight masculine frame, moderate interest in her, some banter, but a clear commitment to maintaining the goal of following God.

    Holy warriors (do not read nice guy here) are attractive. Bad boys are sexy. Good men may not get the immediate response, but, as you say, when we lead (up to heaven or down to hell), women will follow. The ones who are more inclined towards God will follow the man leading towards God. As men running after God, we should be okay with letting the bad girls select the bad boys. They are, as they say, a perfect fit for one another.

    To stave off anyone declaring holy men are unattractive, I have seem time and time again when a severe, good, passionate man with a hint of gentleness has devout, and near devout, women falling over themselves to go after him. Do not equate nice guy with a good man. Those are fundamentally different things.

    -Matthew

  44. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Dear Lyn87,

    Donalgraeme states that Christians must game.

    https://donalgraeme.wordpress.com/2013/12/28/thoughts-on-marriage-and-game/

    donalgraeme writes, “IV. Conclusion
    It cannot be denied that before the advent of Marriage 2.0, it wasn’t necessary for Christian men to have to Game their wives. Nor did they face an environment which was set up to ruin marriage as much as possible. Unfortunately, we do live in the Marriage 2.0 regime now, and Christian men must adapt to the times. Those Christian men who take their chances in marriage must use whatever methods of maintaining control in their marriage are available, with Game being one of the few things still left in the toolbox.”

    Donalgraeme states that Christians must game, thusly trying to exile, trump, and recrucify Christ..

    Could Donalgraeme, Lyn87, Dalrock, or one of the Churchian Fanboys please cite the chapter and verse where Jesus teaches game or states that “Christians must game.”?

  45. “Holy warriors (do not read nice guy here) are attractive. Bad boys are sexy. Good men may not get the immediate response, but, as you say, when we lead (up to heaven or down to hell), women will follow. ”

    This makes sense.. it is similar with women, though not to the same extent.
    For example a devout Christian woman who is dressed modestly is not going to get nearly as much attention from non-Christian men as pretty woman who is not Christian and is not looking for a husband, just fun.
    Many men will prefer the the non Christian woman and deem the Christian one a “Jesus- freak” or “fanatic” and boring. But a GOOD man is going to see she is a good woman.
    It’s not necessary that everybody find a man attractive or a woman. Some won’t, some will. It’s good to attract Christian wife, will attract the wrong kind of women I think, and as Christian men I’m assuming you guys don’t want to be heartbreakers. lol

  46. posted that too soon by mistake sorry.. I meant It’s good to attract Christian wife, maybe game will attract the wrong kind of women I think,

  47. I am sorry for not responding to folks earlier, today has been somewhat busy for me, and will continue to be that way for the foreseeable future. Assuming I free up some time later, I will try and reply.

  48. Lyn87

    GBFM,

    Do you have a point, or is your cut-and-paste button stuck? When guys talk about certain aspects of “game” they are all often fairly careful to separate the leaven from the dough. The lie contains elements of the truth – adults understand stuff like that. “When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.” (1 Cor 13:11).

    I may draw the line in a different place than donal and certainly Dalrock, but I would posit that they are both mostly describing attributes of the godly and scripturally-mandated attribute sophroneo by the incorrect name of “game” – which is the worldly counterfeit that mimics the original.

    Anyway, why do you keep asking me to cite chapter and verse, when I have already stated – in each of the six posts I have already made in this thread – that “game” is not scriptural?

    Also, what do you have against sophroneo? Do you understand Christianity better than God?

    Again, though, why don’t you peddle your scorn at Chateau Heartiste? You really seem to admire the guy – a guy who teaches “game” for the express purpose of whore-mongering.

  49. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Dear Lyn87,

    The GREAT HEARTISTE never stated that Christians must game, nor that game is Christian, while Dalrock and donalgraeme have and do.

    Thus HEARTISTE has a far better understanding than you and the Churchians.

    In addition, the GREAT HEARTISTE serves far more men with the relevant Truth that sets them free, rather than harping on some weird word in Paul which you have leveraged to game women, who we can only guess must not have been that hot, if weird-word-game from Paul makes their ginas tingzlzlzozoz..

    And finally, the GREAT HEARTISTE does not corrupt Christianity like the Churchians do.

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