Godly Masculinity Versus Game

In the comment section of my latest post Leap of Beta, who makes his home at Staged Reality, left what I thought was an insightful comment. Reading it helped solidify some thoughts that I hadn’t been able to settle enough that I could include them in that post. Given how long it already was, I’ve decided to write a new post to lay them out. I am going to track his comment somewhat through my post, so lets begin with this paragraph:

The problem where semantics come in is that there is a very, VERY big difference between Godly Masculinity and Game, yet Dalrock and Vox lump them together. Heartiste does not. I’ve written before about the difference between temptation vs attraction. Temptation is the heart of Game, attraction is the heart of Christian Masculinity; though I actually would go farther and call it Adoration. My reason for this is that the reactions I’ve seen of women to Christian masculinity is a strong mirroring of the adoration a Christian woman will give to God.

One way of reading Leap’s comment is that Godly Masculinity and Game are two very different things. Here is a visual representation of this:

Game and Godly Masculinity ApartIn this model, the two have nothing in common. This is the preferred model of most opponents of Game around the manosphere.

Leap then followed up that paragraph with this sentence:

It should be noted that many, -MANY- of the things game advocates fall in line with those patriarchal teachings.

This provides a different potential visual representation of the two:

Game and Godly Masculininity IntersectUnder this model, there is a certain amount of commonality between the two. The graphic itself isn’t exact, the overlap I included (the part in green) was merely to show that there were some areas of compatibility. This model is the one which Christian advocates of Game seem to have adopted.

Much of the debate from my last post centers around which model is correct. If Model 1 is correct, then Christians should have nothing to do with Game. If Model 2 is is correct, then Christians should be trying to determine just where the “green zone” is located. Before trying to resolve this debate, I want to go back to Leap’s comment. The part that I initially overlooked, but has intrigued me since, is this:

I’ve written before about the difference between temptation vs attraction. Temptation is the heart of Game, attraction is the heart of Christian Masculinity; though I actually would go farther and call it Adoration. My reason for this is that the reactions I’ve seen of women to Christian masculinity is a strong mirroring of the adoration a Christian woman will give to God.

I initially dismissed Leap’s thoughts here because Attraction is a critical component of Game, not just Christian Masculinity. Because of this, I didn’t give his ideas on Temptation any real thought. But as I was writing this response, I realized that he was on to something. I don’t think his initial statement was correct for the reason I mentioned above, but it provides the kernel of thought necessary to germinate a full concept. You see, both Attraction and Temptation lie at the heart of Game. Not one or the other. Both reside there, although in different ways (as I will explain shortly). As for Christian or Godly Masculinity, Attraction and Adoration are to be found at its heart. [The concept of Adoration seems fairly similar to my thoughts on Desire, although I don’t think that they are an exact match.]

For Game, Temptation is the second step. The first step is to generate Attraction. Once a woman is attracted, then you can tempt her. Or perhaps a different word is appropriate: seduce. Many Game advocates in fact recommend a three stage model:

1) The Attraction Phase

2) The Comfort Phase

3) The Seduction Phase

(One example is found here.)

To tie this in what what I and Leap have mentioned before, “Step 1” is a combination of the Attraction Phase and the Comfort Phase. Personally, I think that they are an unnecessary attempt to distinguish between the two. Both involve attraction, with the nature of the attraction moving from more appearance or status based to more emotion based over time. Once Attraction is taken care of, then you can move to the Seduction phase, or what Leap deemed Temptation.

As for Godly Masculinity, you start off in a similar way: by building Attraction. Once you have established Attraction, then you can lead things towards Adoration. Unlike the unbridled lust or the lure of the forbidden fruit found in Game’s seduction/temptation, Adoration is based off a God-fearing woman’s acknowledgment of a man’s righteous character and her respect of him for it. Whereas a woman who is tempted with Game merely wants to sleep with the man tempting her, a Godly woman who adores a man wants to follow him, to join herself to him and his mission/cause.

From this perspective we can see where Game and Godly Masculinity are “compatible”: the generation of attraction. However, both take very divergent paths once you have achieved the necessary level of attraction. Although I think that they actually may share an even earlier frame of reference, if you will. By that I mean that “Frame” is something that is a component of both Game and Godly Masculinity at an even more base level than attraction. Perhaps the best way of visualizing this is as a pyramid. Lets start with Game:

Game as a PyramidMasculine Frame forms the base of pyramid. Everything starts with that; forming a Dominant Masculine Frame is the first step in the whole process. In fact, it is so elemental it must be established before a man even approaches a woman. After Frame is established a man can approach a woman and begin step two, which is the building of Attraction. After sufficiently building Attraction, a man can then move to the third and final step, Temptation. Moving on to Godly Masculinity, we can see that it looks fairly similar:

Godly Masculinity as a PyramidThe only obvious differences is the pinnacle of the pyramid. Temptation has been replaced by adoration. However, I think there are probably some base differences (no pun intended) in how Masculine Frame works between the two. Even if there aren’t, these two new models provide us with a better understanding of how Game and Godly Masculinity interact. We can see that the intersection between the two is found in generating attraction, and in some measure in Masculine Frame.

All of which leads to the major question waiting to be resolved:

Is it possible to separate the Attraction aspects of Game from its Temptation aspects?

In other words, are the tools which are designed to generate Attraction so intrinsically linked to Temptation that they cannot be used apart from those purposes? If this is the case, then Great Books For Men and other opponents of Game are correct- it has no place in Christian circles. On the other hand, if the tools to generate Attraction and Temptation are different, then it stands to reason that Christians who wish to advance Godly Masculinity can appropriate the tools to generate Attraction for their own, holier ends. A similar analysis can also be applied to Masculine Frame as well, although I think that it is sufficiently different from the two stages that the same ethical concerns are not implicated.

As a final thought, if one uses Leap’s definitions for Game and Godly Masculinity, or at least his understanding of how they work, then there really isn’t any room for Christian men to “Game their wives”. Temptation has no place in marriage, and since Game inherently involves Temptation, Christians must eschew it. Of course, that just gets us back to the original point of Leap’s comment, which is that much of our struggle here is over semantics. So rather than argue over what is and isn’t game, we can instead direct our efforts to answering the question I raised above.

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176 Comments

Filed under Attraction, Christianity, Desire, Masculinity, Men, Red Pill, Sex, Women

176 responses to “Godly Masculinity Versus Game

  1. Lyn87

    Wow, GBFM, do you even read what you write before you hit the “Post Comment” button?

    You grovel at the feet of a whore-monger and game-teacher – and denigrate a concept found in multiple places in the Bible. Heartiste knows much but understands nothing, just like you.

    I’m done with you and your hero-worship of the biggest proponent of “Game” on the web.

  2. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Dear Lyn87,

    What is this “concept found in multiple places in the Bible?” of which you speak?

    Is it GAME? It’s a weir word, but what is it? Why is the word so important to you? Why do neither Jesus nor Moses use it?

    Do you think that Jesus and Moses are losers like the rest of the churchians?

    Is that why you so love the word, because Jesus and Moses never use it?

    How many other concepts do you exalt, in the name of Christianity, which Jesus and Moses never taught of?

  3. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Dear Lyn87,

    What is this “concept found in multiple places in the Bible?” of which you speak?

    Why doe neither our Lord Jesus Christ nor Moses mention it?

    Perhaps I could join your cult for an evening to learn more of this mysterious, occult concept which our Lord Jesus Christ and Moses somehow forgot to mention?

  4. Lyn87

    Since GBFM apparently cannot read very well, I will address his nonsense for the benefit of anyone who might think he’s onto something.

    The “weird word” (including grammatical variations) he refers to occurs a total of 23 times in the Greek New Testament. Five different New Testament writers used it. There are synonyms that occur as well. When Jesus cast out a number of demons from a man, he was described as being of sophroneo – of sound mind.

    Apparently he thinks that Jesus and Moses spent all day talking about “bernakified butthexx” and “gina tinglzeszzlollzlzozl” all day long, while worshiping at the alter of the pagan god “Game” alongside Saint Heartiste the Great, but a concept that is found dozens of times throughout the New Testament is somehow foreign to Christianity.

    Two Old Testament Hebrew words that convey a similar idea are sekel (occurs 134 times in the Old Testament – Moses used that word six times) and biynah (occurs 38 times in the Old Testament).

    So to recap – not only does GBFM think the Apostle Paul had absolutely no clue about Christian masculinity, but both Jesus and Moses were clueless as well. Meanwhile, the whore-monger Heartiste earns nothing but the highest praise from GBFM.

    I think that tells us all we need to know about where GBFM’s loyalties lie – with whore-mongers who teach “game” and in opposition to Moses and Jesus.

  5. mwcain

    Embrace,

    Agreed. Perhaps I am projecting, but I believe a lot of men want to be popular with all (6+) women. Instead, we should be focusing on serving God and leading our communities. The good women will soon make themselves known. It is up to you women to teach those women how to make themselves known. Good luck.

    -Matthew

  6. I’m becoming quickly amused by people trying to engage with GBFM without understanding the methods in which GBFM works. Either come to terms and deal with these on his grounds, or go against them, but this half assed “I’ll answer part of the comment without the full thing” will only get you a repeat copy/paste and his mockery.

    For example, no one has fully answered his “law of Moses” opinion, because everyone has blown off his copy/paste of Jesus’s statement as excessive or pedantic. Instead, it is him hammering home a point, that no translation varies on this and that if you want to say that law of Moses is invalid – either by the coming of Jesus or by modern circumstances – one must make that case against every translation of the Bible. So far no one has addressed the idea that in order to find salvation in Christ, who came to fulfill the law of Moses, one must follow the law of Moses. How can one be saved by the God who came to fulfill the law, the prophecies, and God’s promises without following those laws, prophecies, and promises? Answer that, and I suspect you’ll find GBFM takes another track. To anticipate that track, I’d suggest showing how scripture backs up your opinion as well as what form that opinion would take in modern culture.

    I disagree with GBFM on several points, but so far I haven’t been called out by him because I base my arguments heavily on scripture on by acknowledging the difference between sinful temptations (game) and Christian doctrine. If you don’t acknowledge those differences, make a heavy case and attack the subject directly on all fronts rather than weaving around it in the fashion done to this point.

    Also – I’d advise you to view GBFM’s posts as wisdom wrapped in a performance art package. Don’t expect direct responses unless he’s pushed to it, and search. There’s nothing wrong with a question if it leads you to wisdom.

  7. I only have one bit of wisdom to offer here.

    Don’t feed the trolls.

    It takes one to know one, but GBFM is almost the definition of a troll (see wikipedia). Seriously, if I wanted to discredit the discussion in the manosphere, I would would create a persona just like GBFM and start spamming nonsense everywhere I could. I’ve done it in the past with Marxists, it is quite entertaining.

    The only thing he has done on this thread is setup strawmen, spam, invoke non-sequiturs, and misinterpret everything that has been said.

    Just… don’t.

  8. Lyn87

    LEAB,

    GBFM is not a wise man packaging his wisdom in some form of internet-haiku. He is a fan of game (the worst kind – the kind PUAs teach to bed bar skanks). He doesn’t know his Bible (OT or NT), and spends an inordinate amount of time with juvenile sex-talk and gibberish. And, as you can see by scrolling back through his comments on this very thread, he engages in some serious hero-worship of Heartiste, who is one of the biggest proponents of whore-mongering on the internet.

    Frankly, I don’t expect a direct response out of him at all. He’s beat, and he knows it. He’ll probably do one of three things:

    1) Stop posting to this thread.
    2) Copy-and-paste the same stuff he always uses.
    3) Type more gibberish.

    That’s all he has. It’s pretty much all he ever has. The people who think GBFM is some shaman speaking great profundities hidden in elaborate word-pictures reminds me of those art critics who see a pile of dog dung on a sidewalk in front of an art gallery and think it’s a statement on “The Existential Meaninglessness of Post-Industrial Intersectionalism.”

    Nope – it’s just a pile of crap.

  9. Lyn,
    If you think that GBFM is a fan of Game, you don’t understand his writing and the points that he’s trying to make. His points are not ‘high art’ or some kind of crap such as modern art; they’re actually quiet simple. Think of them as a sledge hammer taken to a drywall without any support. Nor does GBFM say that Heartiste is some moral God, simply that Heartiste worships the Dark Gods of the Blood, but doesn’t have the hypocrisy to call them The Lord, Our God while doing so. Heartiste inspires a honor that only a valid, strong foe can inspire – I consider these days Heartiste a den of evil; but one that must be approached with caution. Ironically, heartiste is actually more honest than modern churchians, as so many of them try to worship those Dark Gods of the Blood or Whoreship the Gods of Romanticism. In contrast, heartiste describes as evil what is evil, and will rationalize people following evil as ‘desperate times call for desperate measures’ as any atheist would; yet Heartiste still laments the death of the Good Christian Girl more than most ‘good’ christian girls ever will. Simply read the latest post there if you doubt me:

    “Disinformation is king in a land of distrust and proto-spinster malice. Unusual secretiveness will invite probing; better to misdirect a crazy chick with layers upon layers of lies and quasi-lies. Good girls rarely need this kind of treatment because they don’t have reason to mistrust men and dig into each date’s personal files. They avoid the cock carousel lifestyle and its attendant vice. Bad girls, by dint of their predilections and intemperance, have been burned many times by assholes on the make, and have developed a keenness for snooping in the bargain. They are less naive, but they pay a price in surrendering their chance at redemptive love.”

    While not Christian, and I would say it is advising people to sin, it is honest in it’s discourse of advising people to sin, and thus if much easier to defend oneself against. By contrast the Churchian proclamations of romance, man up, and woman’s ‘redemptive’ qualities are nefarious and evil. By contrast game shoe horned into fitting Christian teachings is sinful by advising men to fall into the sin of Pride.

  10. Marlon

    GBFM, the term “game” has been adopted by a number of Christians.
    Why? Gamers have ‘success’ with women Christian men do not.

    However, the lack of manliness/masculinity among Christian men is not due to a lack of game but a lack of proper Christianity, or a distorted Christianity, culture, single motherdom etc. they have bought into.

    One would hope, having seen game, they would reject it and read the scriptures in a new light gaining sanity, sophroneo. They have not yet reached that stage. Hopefully they will soon.

  11. mwcain

    Leap of Beta,

    Be amused. There are many things the Bible is silent on. Are we to assume that if the Bible doesn’t mention it that it is sin?

    Jesus does not preach game because He came with a specific purpose, as I mentioned. Scripture was written with a specific purpose. It does not teach math or science, but yet we use those truths everyday. Will you and GBFM call those out as sin?

    GBFM implies with his comments that the only proper way to know something is through revelation. That is simply one epistemological form. There are other avenues to know truth. It is the application of these truths that determines ones character.

    For instance, if I am in a war and know that if I run I will live and if I stay, I will die. That is a (near) fact. If I choose to stay, I am both virtuous and dead. If I run, I am a living coward. It is the same with Game.

    I know that if I touch a girl or neg her in such a manner she will (likely) be tempted to fornicate with me. If I choose to seduce and fornicate than I sin. If I choose not to, than I am chaste.

    You state rightly that mimicking dark triad traits are the epitome of game. In essence, it is the manipulation of the female mind to display power and control over her. We live in a fallen society where men look at porn and wonder why they lust after sluts, and women destroy their mind with smut like Twilight/50 shades/Downton Abbey and are inexplicably drawn to the distorted men.

    The reality is that people practicing PUA Game are attracting women. Men practicing nice guy are repulsing women. So, some Christian men have looked at that and said, “is there something in this PUA game which is good or reflects scripture? i.e. can we adopt it?” much like a man desiring to hold the hand of his dying grandma says, “Jesus said love thy neighbor as thyself and so I shall hold my grandmother’s hand because that is something she would like”. We are taking an observed action/desire and determining if it is morally permissible. Scripture gives no explicit command, and I would argue, it does not need to. God has a given us a mind to reason and learn and access to His Spirit to test the wisdom of actions.

    So is there something that PUA game is doing that is commanded by scripture, and, is in fact modeled by Jesus? Absolutely so.

    Courage – Jesus stands boldly in the face of his accusers and calls them out. We can observe this and say that an element of Game is to show courage and be bold.
    Goodness/Severity – Jesus calls out His accusers and rightly condemns what they say and do when it is not right. We can observe this and say that an element of Game is to call a spade a spade and not apologize for it.
    Have a Mission – Jesus was a man on a mission and He had specific goals, as I mentioned in a previous comment. Not worrying about the girl is an essential part of Game. That is, be a man doing something else and not focusing everything on her.

    There are a lot of dark things about Game. It is like fish meat in that sense, there are a lot of small bones to choke on. We must be wary and diligent when observing and applying it. We must eat the fish and avoid the bones.

    Now, you can say, “why deal with this at all, why not follow the Bible explicitly?”. To that I say, Amen, but let us remember why most of us found our way here: the fish is good and well cooked. We also have found out there are a lot of bones. Some of us have choked. Now it is our jobs as teachers to go out and separate the meat from the bones for those who do not have the patience to separate one from the other. We do not need to throw out the fish altogether.

    There is a corollary to another secular vs Christian phenomenon, that is the idea of Progress. The secular man says, “we can improve this world and perfect it through hard work and education”. The Christian says, “the world was good, now it is corrupted, but it will be redeemed. In the meantime, we must work hard to make the blind see, the lame walk, and the captives set free”. In many ways, the secular man and the Christian are doing the same actions. At a slice in time, we could observe from the outside and say that they are headed in the same direction. But we would be wrong. The Christian has no hope that the world will be fixed. He is simply doing his duty to God while looking forward to God redeeming the world. The secular man is betting all his chips on the world improving by his will and actions.

    Such is with Game. There are pieces of it that mimic the appearance of good virtues and, if two men (one Christian, one secular) were observed at a slice in time it may appear that they are doing the same thing for the same reasons. However, the goals are night and day different. One is being fearless to fornicate. The other is being fearless to practice Godliness.

  12. mdavid444444

    Lyn, Was I right the first time?

    Yes.

    I’m running a pool to see how long he can keep you responding :-). Remember: a good definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results…

  13. Marlon

    ” Men practicing nice guy are repulsing women. ”

    I repeat, this addressed not by game but by correcting one’s Christianity and bringing it up straight and true to the biblical model. Read Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Hosea, the story of Judah and Tamar in Genesis etc.

    Ultimately, to win at ‘game’ is to practice ‘Dark Triad traits’. This is not godly. One can be strong without going that route.

    In this way, two things are achieved, ‘success’ with women and godliness.
    This detour into game has gone on long enough.
    Let us move on.

  14. Marlon

    Is it so difficult, having been exposed to game, to say “let me now look into the scriptures with fresh eyes?”.
    Throw the training wheels away.
    Ride on with God.

  15. I didn’t read all the comments, so perhaps this has already been discussed, but I don’t see how “game” is incompatible with Christianity insofar as it overlaps with a man seeking to be masculine. We know that God is not pleased with effeminate men; they will not inherit the Kingdom. If a man is seeking to be masculine and dominate — ie. being strong, confident, risk-taking in personality, competitive, not controlled by emotions, etc., and this leads to some behaviors that appear game-oriented (such as confidence and teasing when talking with a woman), but the man’s intentions are to honor God in masculinity and not game, then how is this wrong or sinful? I would think such behavior becomes sinful when a man realizes “Hey this is what women like and I’ll use it to my sinful advantage” in seeking to serve himself and not honor God. As a woman I like to dress pretty and take care of my looks. Is this sinful? Well, it could be prideful vanity, or a means of representing my husband and God in a dignified manner. It depends on the attitude of my heart, and whether or not I allow my pursuit of those things to lead me astray from the standards set in the Word and established by my husband and the church.

  16. @ MWCAIN
    You’re advocating looking at the Bible through the eyes of sin and the world, rather than looking at the world through the eyes of The Bible and God.

    God gave use the scriptures and revelations of the Church as The Truth. As the One Way. He is all that is true, all that is good, and all that is holy. He loves us supremely and has nothing but our best intentions in mind.

    As such, if he thought that we should know something, should it not be in The Bible? Should it not be in The Son? Should it not be in The Word Made Flesh? If he has our salvation, redemption, and ultimate good in mind, would we not find it there, in the Bible, in what he gave us to know him? Or in the saints, the Church, the Pope?

    It is, in fact, in none of these.

    You can keep your easy answers. You can keep worshipping those Dark Gods of the Blood. But stop calling it Christianity. Call it what it is. You’re whoreshipping women’s fallen nature by submitting to your own Pride instead of to God’s will. You’re appealing to those two things, and then you’re saying we should do the same.

    That is what Game is.

    You would rather have easy answers handed to you by the world, by the City of Satan, than search God’s Word for the elusive truths. Some of those truths are the same truths, but you’re putting them to your own use instead of to Gods. You’re making sacrifices to the world of your mission, your obedience, your faith, and your hope. You are turning away from God’s will due to a lack of faith in his ability to provide for you should you follow his will.

    Game is a truth that would hook in people with it’s truths, then spin them towards worship of those Dark Gods of the Blood, rather than Find God, then Find God’s Truths, and then Live Gods truths. From there you will find that you are attractive and will receive adoration from Christian women as they rely on you to adore God, the Father.

    He does not give us easy answers. He gives us a path, and an ability to follow him. You can either do so or rely on the world to give you easy answers. Easy answers will always come at a cost. Always.

  17. Amanda,
    By that reasoning it is possible to use anything ‘for the greater good.’ I could use the research and vaccines from aborted children because, hey, the damage is done and I might as well receive the gains. It is ignorant and naive to think that such support of ill gotten goods does not support further evil, nor do any harm to the one supporting evil.

    Sin stains everything. Stop rationalizing it.

  18. @Leap of a Beta

    That wasn’t a rationalization — I don’t see how you can say they are absolutely under every circumstance mutually exclusive. I mean, how do you even establish such a standard? If a young man is even attempting to be confident and manly you would accuse him of being worldly and using “game?” Really? I fiind that hard to believe.

  19. @ Amanda
    Read the comments. This discussions been had already, and you’re bringing nothing new to it.

  20. In my defense I prefaced my comment as only my observations to the post and not the comments — I will read the comments soon.

  21. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Eric posted a genius comment at da GBFM’s blog:

    http://greatbooksformen.wordpress.com/2013/12/29/jesus-christ-exalted-the-law-of-moses-not-dalrock-vox-gamey-game-more-gamey-churchians-threaten-to-ban-and-censor-the-words-of-da-gbgm-for-quoting-jesus-christ-and-honoring-the-law-of-moses-over-g/

    Eric writes:
    “The point that I think is being badly overlooked here—especially by Donal and the other Churchian Gamecocks, is this not even problem that MEN should be addressing. If women are repulsed by nice guys—and they clearly are in our society—then the problem is with WOMEN.

    And we NEVER hear any of these Churchians—especially not the female wing of the blogosphere—addressing this issue at all. It’s always men who need to ‘man up and learn Game’. No—it’s the women who need to DO something about their pathetic quality and horrible attitudes.

    To give an example, I was once told by a Russian girl how Putin is admired by all the women in Russia. Let’s see: Putin is president, a world leader, in good physical condition, a former Special Forces commander, and a black-belt in judo who promotes things like strong families and church attendance (he said so in a recent speech). It’s natural that women would be attracted to a man like that: but look at all the year-end ‘hottest guy of 2013′ polls Ameroskanks are taking in: a bunch of tattooed, unhygienic-looking Hollywood punks whose only talent is spewing a bunch of four-letter words out their dirty, uneducated mouths (because most of them are too stupid to read a simple script). This is obviously NOT normal female behavior. It’s clearly a product of radically defective female education and I can’t see how ‘learning Game’ would do anything but exacerbate and encourage this kind of bad behavior among women.

    It’s seems that the opposite course of action would correct women’s behavior: DO NOT validate them sexually. The more American men who go MGTOW or turn to foreign non-feminist women, the sooner American women will realize that their behavior doesn’t appeal to ‘alphas’ at all; but their only appeal is to Omega/Zeta losers and their future is to be ‘left alone with cats’ unless they start behaving like real women again.” -Eric

    Da GBFM replied:

    “Amen Eric!

    The greater journey, completely ignored by the Churchian Gamecocks, is exalting the Glory of Jesus Christ who came to Fulfill The Law Of Moses.

    But instead the Churchian Gamecocks scoff at Moses and Genesis and the Holy Bible, censor Jesus’s words, and kneel before women’s butt and gina tiznzgzlzlzozoozozolzozozozo making tinzgzzllzozo the center and circumference of their anti-Moses, anti-Jesus churhes, while castigating and impugning manly Christians and rugged Christianity.”

  22. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Amen Marlon,

    There is noting more masculine than the LAW OF MOSES which Jesus came to fulfill. The Churchian gamecocks neuter themselves by rejecting the LAW OF MOSES and scoffing at Jesus who came to fulfill the Law of Moses, and then find that they are unable to attract women. Instead of growing a pair and exalting Christ and Moses, they then take to wearing furry hats and negging the slutty slutsztztzt who have overtaken their churchian churches,as they become slaves to gina tizgzzllzozozozozo. The last thing they will ever do is MAN UP and PASS GOD’S JUDGMENT on the SLUTTY SLUTSZ ZLZOZOZOZOZ, as truly, they have rejected Moses and thus Jesus who came to fulfill the law of moses.

  23. @ Amanda
    I know, which is why I said it. I’m simply not going to repeat myself when I’ve already responded to the exact same ideas you present.

  24. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Dear Amanda,

    Have you ever had out-of-wedlock sex? Did you consider it Christ-like and Godlike? Have you also exiled the Law of Moses from your realm, like the gamey Chruchian cockas?

  25. mwcain

    Leap,

    I can understand how you came to the erroneous conclusion that I want people to interpret the Bible through Game. However, the premise of my argument is that the Bible does not explicitly teach men how to attract and pursue women. In the same way it doesn’t teach Geometry, physics, literary criticism, logic, or Calculus, It is not intended to. You and GBFM are demanding a square peg fit into a round hole.

    Good men in our generation fundamentally do not understand how to attract women. Is this a moral issue? No, it is an issue if a man does not have the gift of celibacy or wants a family. If you want, consider a husband learning how to be attractive to his wife as a form of love. He is pandering, in a sense, to the weaker brother. Just like a wife stays fit to attract her husband so that he does not fall into sexual temptation. Each does extra work to help the other.

    In many ways Game teaches a distorted form of masculinity, but there are concepts utilized in it that parrot real masculinity.A masculinity that has been lost. The Bible teaches you how to be a good man, but it doesn’t teach you how to be a man. It is assumed your culture does that. We are missing that piece.

    I am all for reading the Bible and taking everything from it to be a Real Man running hard after God. However, if you want to maintain attraction to your wife, you have to know a few things about female nature that the Bible does not teach with any clarity. It says stay away from the harlot, and a contentious woman is like a dripping faucet. It does not tell you how to stop the contentious woman, or tell you that men and women fundamentally think in different ways. Game does.

    If you want to prove everyone wrong then do the opposite of everything Game teaches. Fail every fitness test because the Bible does not teach of it, do not make eye contact with women because the Bible does not teach it, etc. Abstain from doing math, working with computers, discussing logic, or practicing any number of trades because those things are not in the Law of Moses or described in any narrative. According to you two we do not have the capability of discerning what is right and what is wrong unless it is in the Bible.

    That is rubbish. If you cannot learn to eat meat without choking on the bone then refrain from attempting to force all of us to become vegetarians.

  26. mwcain

    Leap,

    As a second note, you are wrong in assuming that all truth comes through revelation. That view is implicit in your statement, “As such, if he thought that we should know something, should it not be in The Bible? Should it not be in The Son?”. I highly recommend reading some Christian philosophers discussing the Christian worldview as put forth implicitly and explicitly in the Bible. We can obtain knowledge/truth outside of revelation. Your strict worldview has a fatal flaw, in so far as you believe what you are seeing is true and real without being explicitly told in Scripture that this is so.

    -Matthew

  27. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Hey Leap of Beta,

    Just ignore mwcain and keep following Christ.

    the mwcains/dalrockians/churchians live in the cesspool where they constantly must serve their wive’s gina tingzzlzlzolzo and live in constant fear that she will destroy the Family.

    Of course Moses stated that women could not do this, and Jesus cme to Fulfill the Law, but because the mwcains/dalrockians/churchians threw Jesus/Moses under the bus so as to get their cockakakksks wet, now they have to deal with a Christless marriage and Church sans the Law of Moses.

    Naturally, instead of trying to build themselves up or serve God, Moses, and Jesus, they must try and bring the world down to their “I fear gina tinzgzzlzlzoo more than I love God” level.

    Just ignore mwcain as he ignores JEsus Christ and Moses and keep following Christ. If it doesn’t make a woman’s gina tinzgzlzzlozozlzziz, so be it. True Alphas don’t worry about women’s ginas going tiznzgzlzlzuzuzzlzoozozlzuzuzzlzozz, as they use the LAw of Moses to preserve the family, which the mwcains are letting decline, as they exile the LAW OF MOSES (foundational familial law) from their churches to make way for the gina tginzgzlzlzoz they love so very much.

  28. Ok I read through the comments. Lyn and EOF make some great points about the importance of masculinity and how it has been co-opted into a set of perverse rules by “game” proponents to seduce women into fornication. I don’t think it is wrong for a man to seek to have masculine character to glorify the Lord — in fact, I would go so far as to say it is commanded as effeminate men do not please the Lord. I understand that some commenters feel this is a capitulation to women because women like strong masculine traits, and my thoughts are it depends on what one is defining as “masculine character” and how one goes about developing said character. Sleeping with lots of women is not developing “masculine character” for example. So perhaps game intercepts with Biblical masculine character in that both require confidence, dominance, etc., but they differ in application.

  29. @ MWCain
    “However, the premise of my argument is that the Bible does not explicitly teach men how to attract and pursue women”

    That happens to be the premise of my argument as well. So far, we’re on the same track.

    “In the same way it doesn’t teach Geometry, physics, literary criticism, logic, or Calculus, It is not intended to.”

    Agreed. Again, we’re on the same track. You see, the bible doesn’t tell us about the specifics of this world, because it is focused on something more important. That more important thing is How To Live In God’s Will. As such, the bible addresses how one should live, and it does so in the Best Way Possible. Not always the most direct way, but in the best way. If you want easy answers, turn to the world. To your calculus and science. Those are easy answers. Turn to The Bible for the hard ones.

    You see, you demand God gives you explicit answers. I do not. I accept that God gives the Best answers for me, and that I might actually have to think and consider those answers to understand them. As such, God has given us a whole book of implicit answers on how Men should behave, how they should not, how women should behave, how they should not. It tells us, top to bottom, everything we need to know about human behavior. Emphasis on Need.

    As such, one can gain more insight when expanding upon scripture; this is where revelation comes in. Those 2000 years of Church history, doctrine, and dogma. You think our problems are new? Go read what Popes have written about immodest behavior of women. There’s nothing new, there’s simply the fact that men finally conceded the fight. Now our generation has to pick up our arms again, having lost ground to a progressive evil that will relentlessly hammer at the gates.

    What you -don’t- do is pick up weapons whose handles are coated in poison. Weapons that will seep into your soul.

    If you would wake up, you’d see that I am not ‘asking you not to pick around fish bones’ but that I am asking you not to eat meat that has gone bad. There is no way to escape the bad meat should you chose to eat it – you can only pray that God’s mercy will extend to you. That his mercy will overpower your willing choice to introduce rot into your soul. Personally, I try to avoid abusing God’s mercy seeing as it is one of the few aspects of God that we are unsure where it begins and where it ends. Justice and Love are simple by comparison; yet if you willingly decide to tempt yourself to sin and to tempt others to sin, where does his mercy end and his justice begin?

    It’s a fearsome question, and not one that I would encourage others to stake their souls on simply because you’d rather have easy answers of the world, rather than ponder the mysteries of God. I will search for, find, and follow the lessons of God’s Chosen; his Patriarchs, and attempt to please him rather than follow your quick and easy path. So far, I’ve been rewarded and blessed every single time I made that choice; I have faith that my God will not abandon me, and I will sing joy for the crosses he gives me to carry, increasing my strengths and virtues, until that time.

  30. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Dear Amanda

    Christian Masculinity is to Game
    as
    Missionary in Marriage is to Secrtive Tapingzng of Buttehxt Fornicatiozn Sododomyies

    So you can see why all the Churchians conflate Game and Christianity, while exiling Christ for Fulfilling the Law of Moses.

  31. @ Amanda

    Teachings of Christianity have continuously been co-opted by evil. Where do you think Heretics get their teachings? How about anti-christs? Lucifer?

    You think that Satan just created a whole new set of rules, rather than twist God’s rules into a temptation that sounds nice, feels right, and is easy? A twist based on, perhaps, the Prime Sin from which all other sins flow and the sin that led to Lucifer’s downfall, as well as Adam and Eve? Maybe Pride?

    Seduction is easy. Oh so easy. One forgets that Evil is a responding force, that it must have a Good to react to in order to define itself as Evil. All Evil starts out as a Good, but then becomes pursued in an unhealthy manner to an extreme extent.

    GK Chesterton once said, “Even the man walking into a brothel is searching for God.” and he was right. These men practicing Game are looking for a God, and found their Dark Gods of the Blood. They sought the answers, and found them.

    But it is foolish to try and learn the Truth from The Deceiver before you turn to Your God. The enemy will always find a way to twist the truth into something evil. Ask your God for answers, and then search for them where he directs you – the bible, the saints, the church.If you haven’t found what answers God has given you, why are you already asking for answers that he has not? Be wary of such pride and presumption leading you astray.

  32. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    “Those who live by gina tingzlzlzlzzoozzo will die by gina tingzlzlzozozozooz.”

    Jesus teaches us to let the dead bury the dead, all the fornicating, buttocockineneing churchians, and follow Jesus Christ who came not to abolish the Law of Moses as Churchians teach, but to Fulfill It.

  33. Random Angeleno

    Women may be the problem, as posited by GBFM’s favorite commenter. The issue I have with that statement is that while it may be true, it is functionally useless. Assigning said responsibility to women does nothing for me as a man and the mentality behind it would allow men to take the easy way out to abdicate their responsibility to themselves to be in this world but not of it. Whether the problem with women will be solved in my lifetime is out of my control, I can only change myself.

    Women must be understood as they are, not as we would wish them to be. To not understand them as they are is to not understand the risk I may be taking with this woman or that. To be a Godly man does not mean to make uninformed choices about women and hope that God will rescue me from their consequences in this life. But that is the path GBFM would have me take.

    So somewhere in here is the nugget that sophroneo does not equal nice guy. That’s a start, but only a start. The Bible is a bit thin (and perhaps intentionally so) with temporal details about being a Godly masculine man who is attractive to women on the strength of who he is as opposed to being the churchian nice guy who repels them. Those are the kinds of details I’m looking for. I need to root out the “nice guy” in me while remaining true to my Catholicism, that is the work in progress in my life. GBFM has been on the money regarding Bernanke butthexes, but is off the mark here. I find LEAB a bit unhelpful as well, I grant that he means well and his belief is strong. But how does he know that looking for your own answers doesn’t lead to doing your own sola scriptura? I think a certain amount of structure is required here. Some of that is already in Bible. Good. But some is not. Guess that is the debate here: where is the line? and what should be taught from outside the Bible? To say nothing doesn’t help. The Bible says men are to be the head of the household, why is it wrong to teach them how to act like one in ways that are both Godly and attractive to women?

  34. Marlon

    “The Bible says men are to be the head of the household, why is it wrong to teach them how to act like one in ways that are both Godly and attractive to women?”

    No one contradicts that.
    But game doesn’t teach one to be godly.
    Its ultimate technique is becoming heartless and detached through acquisition of the dark triad.
    The scripture teaches godliness and strength through obedience. As one obeys God provides mentors, and training for each step. Trust him – read The Great Books For Men, read Hosea, Genesis, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, 1 Corinthians especially, and see if there isn’t enough there to make one effective.

    Or follow game. But remember game’s ultimate strength lies in spinning plates – keeping a number of women in rotation to reduce dependence on any one. From this one, one hollows out one’s soul to make room for the Dark Triad core. Roissy is consistent and not a Christian. Yet the Christians want God and game; something the worldly realize is not possible.
    The Word says to wash your wife in the word – correct her by your behavior and words by the light you live by but I suppose micro game, macro game, day game, text game and night game will have to do.
    Happy gaming!

  35. mwcain

    Leap,

    The Bible does not have all the answers to living life in it. Therefore we have to go outside the Bible for guidance. Normally our fathers would teach us how to deal with women, they have not for generations. That information is lost. Whether you consciously do it or not, every time you interact with a woman you are using some part of Game to positively interact with her because you, unlike normal guys out there, have acquired this knowledge. You link to Roosh, Heartiste, and other Game bloggers, therefore I assume you have read them.

    You can call it a poisoned weapon all you want, but if I see a cute girl that I would like to talk to, not to fornicate, but rather to meet her and see what she is like, both personality and character, I know not to gush over her and joke about marriage because of reading Game. As a man after God, I am not going to manipulate her with negs or kino game her. That using discernment to separate the meat from the bones.

    Your stance on Game is as silly as a if a man refused to use the internet because there is porn on it. If you use the internet, there is the temptation to use it for sin. There is also the option to use it for good, to obtain the definition for a greek word for your weekly Bible study. The choice is yours.

    -Matthew

  36. Ton

    Attraction is temptation.

    Past that so many delusions…. so little time or concern

  37. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    mwcain’s lust for cute girls is holy and good and christlike:

    mcwain writes, “You can call it a poisoned weapon all you want, but if I see a cute girl (with a nice christain ass) that I would like to talk to, not to fornicate (just talk and talk and talk and splooge), but rather to meet her and see what she is like, both personality and character (because she is hot hot hot hot cute cute ass!), I know not to gush over her and joke about marriage because of reading Game (game is greater than mwcain’s common sense). As a man after God, I am not going to manipulate her with negs or kino game her (I will just let her cute ass hot on my carousel). That using discernment to separate the meat from the bones.”

    mwcain’s lust for cute girls is holy and good and christlike, and so he uses Game to serve Jesus while non-Christians use game to serve Moses.

    Thus mwcain is Christlike in all his lust and longings, because of his Christlike Game.

  38. Elspeth

    I’ve talked with my husband on the subject, Donal and he is firmly in the camp that game is utterly foolishness and there’s nothing godly about it.

    When I suggest to him that the way he relates to me is something that would be considered “game” he just shook his head.

    “If me heading my house and refusing to let you and your craziness dictate things around here is game, well okay. Whatever. This is no games or strategy on my part. You’re just not gonna run over me. I take good care of you so when you cook my food, clean my house, and rub my back, you’re just doing what you’re supposed to do.”

    Funny enough, my father was recently under the weather and my stepmother has been dutifully caring for him, as is her nature. We visited with them yesterday and she mentioned that she was tired between the holidays and Dad’s illness. My husband told her, “Stop complaining. You’re just doing what you’re supposed to do.”

    To which my dad replied, “Yeah and you can get me a glass of orange juice.”

    I would never broach this subject with my father, who is also a very godly man, but I I have no doubt that he would also agree that game is wholly unnecessary. Not only because a truly devout wife doesn’t need it, but because a strong godly man doesn’t either.

  39. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    See how mwcain cares not about the decline of the family nor the destruction of Man’s Rights, but to mwcain, Christianity is all about empowering his boner and letting his boner lead, instead of Jesus Christ and Moses whom the Chruchians hate, fear, and detest, even though Jesus Christ stated that he came to fulfill the LAW OF MOSES. Note how mwcain never talks about how the LAW OF MOSES could save marriages, as he has no soul, and thus is incapable of Godly thought, but only feeling the blood in his loins as his boner goes tinzgzzlzlzoozzo when he sees a hot girl.

    mwcain is typical of today’s anti-Moses, anti-Jeus, pro-boner-following Chruchians. they know no bounds in deconstructing and destroying the Bible, just so they can cross the street and game a hot girl, even if she is someone else’s wife or fiance.

    Is it any wonder why the tingle-worshippers spend so much time Hating on Moses and the Law of Moses which Jesus Christ came to fulfill? Is it any wonder their families are declining and dissipating, as their only concern is not God’s Higher Law, but only following their boners across the street towards the carousel-riding tingzlzlzozozo?

  40. **”The scripture teaches godliness and strength through obedience. As one obeys God provides mentors, and training for each step. Trust him – read The Great Books For Men, read Hosea, Genesis, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, 1 Corinthians especially, and see if there isn’t enough there to make one effective.”**

    This is an excellent way of putting it, and I totally agree. Has anyone on manosphere blogs ever contrasted Biblical masculinity with game in a series of posts? Admittedly I do not read pua blogs so I am not really familiar with all the dark applications of “game”, but I do think seeking to be a strong and masculine man is a worthy goal.

  41. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Dear Amanda,

    Here is the Game which donalgraeme wants to replace Christianity with, exiling the LAw of Moses so that mwcain’s lust for cute girls acorss the street can be considered holy and good and Christlike:

    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/the-sixteen-commandments-of-poon/

    zlzozoozozoz

  42. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Dear Amanda,

    One can see donalgraeme and the Chruchians exiling the LAW OF MOSES which Jesus Christ came to fulfill–the TEN COMMANDMENTS and GENESIS–and replacing it with game. Long story short, donalgraeme, Lyn87 and the Churchians are replacing the TEN COMMANDMENTS with the SIXTEEN COMMANDMENGTS OF POON:
    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/the-sixteen-commandments-of-poon/

    They are doing this so that mwcain’s gamey lust for cute girls across the street can be considered Holy and Good and Christlike, as they throw Moses and Jesus under the bus, replacing Holy Water with gina juice, and Baptism with butttztziznzgzlzolzozozoz.

  43. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Long story short, because donalgraeme , Lyn87 and mwcain failed to make their women obey THE LAW OF MOSES which JESUS CAME TO FULFILL, they themselves must now obey the SIXTEEN COMMANDMENTS OF POON.

    Because these go against the teachings of MOSES AND JESUS CHRIST, they must then attack and destroy MOSES, JESUS, and da GBFM for siding with the exalted LAW OF MOSES and JESUS over butt and gina tinzgzlzlzozozo.

  44. ……………………………………..________
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  45. @ mwcain
    Thanks for reminding me that I haven’t updated my blogroll since I started my conversion to Catholicism. I’ll be honest in that I dont spend much time doing site upkeep as I’ve diverted the time to other projects and reading. I’ll go through it when I’m home from work

  46. deti

    Godly masculinity is not taught, not even in churches.

    In the rare instance a man displays Godly masculinity, he is shamed, rebuked, punished, and ostracized.

  47. Aquinas Dad

    [full disclosure – I haven’t read the comments yet]
    To the extent “game” is am attempt to mimic authentic masculine traits I will concede that some of what “game” instructs does *resemble* Catholic masculinity. This is akin to what is sometimes seen in movies where an actor that does not play a musical instrument is taught how to move as if they were proficient and someone else will later dub in the sounds.

  48. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    deti writes, “deti: Godly masculinity is not taught, not even in churches.
    In the rare instance a man displays Godly masculinity, he is shamed, rebuked, punished, and ostracized.”

    Yes! That is why the Churchians/mwcains must shame, rebuke, punish, and ostracize MOSES and JESUS who came to FULFILL THE LAW OF MOSES, and replace true Christianity with a gamey version that teaches not of THE LAW OF MOSES, but the SIXTEEN COMMANDMENTS OF POON, so as to sanctify mwcain’s boner as he crosses the street to game a bernneekifed girl.

    lzozozozoozolz

  49. Aquinas Dad

    Deti,
    While I appreciate your point in general, you do not attend even a majority of churches; please do not claim to speak for, say, mine.

  50. Aquinas Dad

    OK, I have gone through the comments and see that there is a lot of reaching towards a goal that I think I know.
    Since “game” is a crude attempt to ape real masculinity for immoral purposes, what is real masculinity and what is its purpose?
    We’ve known this for a long time! ‘Masculinity’ is actually a side effect of a good character (as is leadership and wisdom). And a good character isn’t a set of skills or learned behaviors; the learned behaviors and skills are an outgrowth of the virtues that generate good character.
    The four cardinal virtues are justice, fortitude, temperance, and prudence; the 3 theological virtues are faith, hope, and charity.
    – A just man will reject the usurpation of his authority but not exploit his authority
    – A man of fortitude will not be cowed by nagging, calumny, or the bad-formed opinions of outsiders
    -A temperate man will neither ignore nor be ignored; he will not neglect nor smother, be over demanding or too lax
    – A prudent man knows when and how to apply his various charisms and authority for proper effect.
    – A faithful man will remember the ultimate source of all good and be mindful of his duty to develop and maintain the 4 cardinal virtues as well as to praise, honor, love, and obey God
    -A hopeful man (in the proper theological sense) is secure that God will support and sustain him as he needs, not as he wants
    -A charitable man (again, in the proper meaning) will be properly magnanimous, longanimous, and patient
    .
    Of course, *femininity* (and proper, Godly, submission) flow from the exact same virtues!

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