Over the course of my time blogging here in the manosphere I have noticed what seems like a pattern whenever I mention my age and growing older. Fairly consistently, whenever I express alarm at my age and how it will impact my ability to marry well, a Red Pill aware woman will speak up and say that I’m needlessly worrying. She will point out that my SMV is increasing over time and that I have yet to hit my peak. I’ve seen the same directed towards other men as well.
Now, none of what these women said was incorrect. According to Rollo‘s interpretation of SMV, I am getting more attractive over time. And my personal observations certainly match up with this, although I don’t know if that is simply because I am getting older or because I have unlearned a whole slew of unattractive behaviors. All of that is besides the point, however, because these women are confusing an increase in SMV, which corresponds to the Sexual Marketplace, with the ability to marry well, an entirely different matter.
Before I continue in depth I think it best to re-post the graphic representation that Roll made of male and female SMV, interposed:
…
While I have some minor disagreements with it, I think that Rollo has managed to aptly convey how male and female SMV develop over time. There are a couple of key things to take away from his graph:
1) The numbers that Rollo provides on the side are better understood as a percentage, specifically of the maximum level of attractiveness that an individual man or woman can achieve.
2) Under this assessment women “peak” at 23, and men at 38. That creates a gap of about 15 years.
3) The critical point, where male and female SMV achieve rough “parity”, is at the age of 30. This age, interestingly enough, roughly corresponds with the point where women start to hit The Wall.
With these observations in mind, lets turn back to the intersection of age, male SMV and marriage. The key flaw in the thinking of those Red Pill women is that they confuse the Sexual Marketplace and the Marriage Marketplace.
In the SMP, the only thing that really matters is SMV, or attractiveness. If your only intention is to establish a sexual relationship, then its a game of competing with your peers for the most attractive members of the opposite sex available. The higher your SMV, the higher the SMV you can get in the opposite sex. In this sense, things are definitely looking up for me. My ability to “pull” women for the purpose of sex is only getting better over time. But this isn’t what men like myself are looking for.
In the MMP, there are a large number of factors which determine relationships other than SMV. Attractiveness does play a role, of course, but must compete with other criteria. Age is one of these. It doesn’t matter in the SMP, because most relationships are temporary things, sometimes not even lasting a single night. But marriage is (supposed to be) a long term, for life endeavor, and so a potential spouse’s age makes a huge difference. For men in my position, the central problem is that the closer we get to our “peak”, the greater the age gap between us and the women we want (who are at their peak or before it). And this age gap matters because women these days aren’t necessarily going to marry a man significantly older than themselves.
They might be concerned about being widowed early, and having to take care of children by themselves. Or even widowed late in life, but still having to face a decade or more alone. Also, they could be concerned about the criticism they might face from friends and family from marrying a man significantly older than themselves. In addition, there is also the significant, perhaps overriding fact that many women these days don’t want to marry when they are young. So marrying a woman near her prime is difficult enough.
If you think I might be off base here, I suggest you ask yourself this question: How many 18-23 year old women do you know who want to marry as soon as possible?
Follow that up with this question: How many 18-23 year old women do you know who want to marry and would be willing to marry a man in, say, his early to mid thirties?
The answer to both questions is precious few. And this small pool of women becomes even smaller when you factor in other criteria to decide if such women are marriageable. I’ve explained my criteria before about what I look for in a potential wife, and I image most other men in a similar position have similar criteria.
When taken together, every day that passes takes men in my age group further and further away from the ideal age range of women that we want to marry. Giving up on younger women and focusing on those closer to our age isn’t a terribly great strategy either. As you look at progressively older age groups of women, fewer and fewer women in each age bracket meet our criteria for marriage (mine already rules out the majority of women by the time they turn 18).
Thus we get the conundrum that marriage minded men face in the present age: The older we get, the more attractive we become to women, but at the same time, there are less marriageable women available to us.
Donal Graeme 
This isn’t exactly a new field of inquiry for me, as I have said much the same thing in other posts prior to this one. But since I find myself needing to explain this every now and then I decided it was time to summarize everything in a single post. I will probably update it over time to accommodate any new ideas or thoughts on the subject.
How many 18-23 year old women do you know who want to marry as soon as possible?
I can’t say for certain, but I believe this might – slowly – be increasing. Between watching their older sisters (or aunts) stay on the shelf past their sell-by dates, and the economy preparing to seize up like one of Wile E. Coyote’s gizmos, I think some of them are beginning to see the writing on the wall. I recall a couple young women from work fairly recently – one was married and had her second kid on the way, and the other seemed to be trying to lock down her boyfriend. Both were under 23. But anecdotes aren’t data, as they say.
Giving up on younger women and focusing on those closer to our age isn’t a terribly great strategy either
I’d venture it’s actually a worse strategy. Those are the ones who have been sold the lies, suffered the damage, and have invested serious capital in not breaking their illusions.
Thus we get the conundrum that marriage minded men face in the present age: The older we get, the more attractive we become to women, but at the same time, there are less marriageable women available to us.
This could be the opening paradox in “How Zeno Reasoned His Groove Back.”
You said that if you were unable to find a wife, you will visit Poland and try your hand out there. Have you put more thought into that? You need to be considering that as an alternative, and put serious effort into it. The women in this culture are broken, and you should make plans around that. Realize, as you said here, that drastic measures may be required; sacrifices may be called for.
The Shadowed Knight
I understand exactly what you mean. If things dont work with the girl I’m currently pursuing I have to jump up three years in age and deal with college in the next group of women. Not deal breaking but certainly more wary and not ideal to have to pay off debt and also set the expectations of SAHM for her
“How many 18-23 year old women do you know who want to marry and would be willing to marry a man in, say, his early to mid thirties?”
Coming from an 18 year old, NOT me. From my female peers in college, most girls want to get married in their late twenties, early thirties so, they can have “fun” and “travel” while building up their career. They would consider an age gap no bigger than 3 years. While I’m not on the same page with them on this (I think it wise to put a family and children first, then career later, if husband wants). I wouldn’t marry a man 15 years older than me, 10 years would be my age limit.
Another good thing to think about, is women my age think boys like “Justin Beiber” and “One Direction” are cute. There are a few exceptions like Robert Downey Jr. or Johnny Depp, but that doesn’t change the fact that girls are finding young boys attractive…!
Also, what WinterKnight said about other women isn’t 100% true. I know a few women who meet your criteria donalgraeme and to me, it is not a hard list to meet. (The hardest one for most women would be chaste), but in my church that I go to in VA, this isn’t hard. I can testify to that. There are plenty of women in Europe who follow American ways or may even have a higher N than American women. I’ve traveled to 6 different countries in Europe…trust me. The thing is, European women carry themselves with a bit more class so, it is easy to disregard their promiscuity. They also embrace their femininity more than American women.
Your best bet would be the south, where American traditions are still kept. Also, I would go deep south because VA is becoming liberal like the other states. If you don’t want to go that far, consider women who have parents that are foreign, but are conservative Christians. Because now that I think about it, the only girl whose parents were not foreign, who met your criteria, came from the deep south.
Leap of a Beta,
“Deal with college?” Most women 18-23 are in college. I agree though that plenty of women do come out with college debt. I actually know a woman who plans to get married to a rich man and have her husband pay off her college debt…All I can say is…poor guy…he doesn’t even know yet.
“I actually know a woman who plans to get married to a rich man and have her husband pay off her college debt…All I can say is…poor guy…he doesn’t even know yet.”
I’ve known women in college who thought that. It never worked.
@ NSR,
“Those are the ones who have been sold the lies, suffered the damage, and have invested serious capital in not breaking their illusions.”
True, but some of us late-twenties women are actually very desperate for the truth so we can undo those lies and break the illusions. Don’t give up on us yet.
Lovely,
It’s more than just the debt. Its the attention, the time, and the social aspects. Women in college have a great deal of attention lavished on them even if they’re the most hideous person both physically and personality. They are doing something that, if done right, is more time consuming than a job. They’re involved in social circles that are directly at odds with the ideas and concepts of marriage. It’s a nightmare; I wouldn’t want to date someone with that much pulling them away from me.
Yet after college you only have one or two years before the average woman starts growing cold and bitter.
It’s just sad.
Hm, that is true. I see.There are a lot of women in my college who actually have already started down the bitter path. They dislike gender roles/expectations and think religious white men are the bane of their existence. There are a few women though who are outliers and would love to be wife and mother, but they are told to keep quiet so, you would really have to go searching for these girls in college. They want to get along with everybody and don’t want to be ridiculed so, they will keep quiet about their beliefs.
Donal, Thus we get the conundrum that marriage minded men face in the present age: The older we get, the more attractive we become to women, but at the same time, there are less marriageable women available to us.
This is a perceptive post. I generally agree, as far as it goes. Comments below (from a happily married family man, who got married when things where rock bottom in the male marriage market…I swear 90% of my peers are divorced and/or ruined by their marriage):
1. Younger women of decent morals are more open to early marriage than one might think. Actually, a woman’s openness to young marriage with a middle-aged man is a good litmus test for her quality.
2. A mid-aged man needs to cultivate quantity in his marriage search to improve his MMV. Date and dump. Being around girls socially, even if aloof and not dating per se, is key for young women to see that you have options and she is not a desperate last choice. One also needs to meet a lot of men, to further open up the channels to meeting more women in social environments. Marriage today is like gold mining…you dig through 99% slag to find a single “reasonable” stone. It’s a tough, ugly slog…American women suck.
3. Travel opens up marriage options. Seriously consider it. Again, quantity opens options for finding quality.
4. If you must marry, plan on lowering your standards. Especially on perfect chastity. An important part of “settling” is to never pedestal a future wife. Don’t fall into the “she must be perfect” trap. No woman is.
5. Protect yourself financially prior to (and during) marriage. Hold gold and/or cash (outside the purview of the courts) as insurance against any crisis. Marriage is a massive risk, and having financial options gives a man more control and more confidence, again helping said marriage. It’s just common sense, like fire insurance.
6. Marry a Catholic girl with never-divorced parents if possible (Mormon, Muslim or Mennonite works too, if she will convert). You can’t teach stable family life and male headship to a girl; it must be learned when growing up. An all-male priesthood, witnessed week after week, helps.
7. If the first 6 suggestions are too offensive, seriously consider not getting married. As a man, nobody will help you: not the law, not the Church, not the culture, and often not even a good wife. Marriage circa the year 2000 a war zone, and yes, women are the source of 90% of the evil. I married following the rules above, and it worked out great for me and mine. But most of my male peers have deep regrets.
@ TSK
I have given it some thought, and have actually dug into it a little. Sadly, it looks like it isn’t as viable now as it was 10 years ago. I am still considering it, but wouldn’t pursue that route for several years yet.
@ Leap
Yes, college makes things a lot more dicey. I’m actually inclined to think that I might be better focusing on women attending community colleges, as the overall environment there is less hostile and subversive, from what I can tell.
Your second comment, directed to Lovely, mirrors much of my thinking on the matter.
@ Lovely
Thanks for providing your perspective. The comments you raise about the south are interesting, because I’ve seen some data which indicates that the Bible belt is actually a worse place to look for a potential mate than other parts of the country. Much of it has to do with the fact that a lot of folks there claim to be religious but aren’t. They are driven by culture, not sincere belief. Whereas women in “Blue” parts of the country who attend church do so despite the culture.
@ Lovely
I know a woman as well who thinks she will marry a rich husband to pay off her debt and allow her to work the job she wants (which is lower paying than the rest of her field). While she is by no means ugly, she isn’t nearly good enough looking to pull that off.
Also, your points about bitterness and those who avoid it are spot on. The Herd polices its own, of course. It can’t let other women actually go out and make smart choices, because that wouldn’t be fair to those who’ve already ruined their lives.
@ FBNF
While it is true that some women in your age group don’t fit the mold, you and those like you are extreme outliers.
@ Mdavid
I agree with most of your points. The only area where I might disagree is #4, although I don’t know exactly what you mean by “perfect chastity.” If you mean anything other than N=0, then I must disagree. That is one of my few non-negotiables (unless the Lord decides otherwise). And yes, I fully understand that it might mean that I won’t ever marry. If that is what must happen, then so be it.
This is a good point Donal, that a man’s SMV is not the same as his MMV. Women on average want men within about five years of their own age. A few will look at older men, too, but not many. I’m not sure, though, that that was ever different in the past. I would say it was probably always pretty common for a girl of about 20 to marry a man of about 22-25. Looking at charts of average age at first marriage from the 1800s confirms this.
Anyway, advising Christian men to wait until they are much older to marry is unwise in my opinion for just the reasons you state. A man of 22 or 23 would be wise to seek to court girls of 19 or so.
that is an absolutely solid post. i’ve been thinking about almost the exact same issue w/o the religious angle.
statistically, the odds of a chaste female are slim to none. regarding that factor, you need to adjust your expectations and pivot towards the end goal based on what you bring to the table.
@ SSM
It is not really so much a difference in SMV versus MMV, as it is a difference in the SMP versus the MMP. Women do tend to prefer men closer to their age on average, but we need to be careful about assuming that was always so. Age of marriage data only goes back so far, and that data also has potential reliability issues (based on who reported and who didn’t). One reason women may tend to marry men only somewhat older than them is the fact that those men are the ones they interact with more often. Social circles matter here.
Unfortunately younger men face just the same problems that older men looking for younger wives do: women don’t generally want to marry at that age. Honestly, I think a young man’s best bet is to marry a high-school sweetheart, where he can hopefully rely on long experience together, as well as marrying her before all of the pressures which call for delayed marriage can be brought to bear.
@ Donal
“I’m actually inclined to think that I might be better focusing on women attending community colleges, as the overall environment there is less hostile and subversive, from what I can tell.”
I can see why you’d do that, but can’t imagine finding much luck there. From my own anecdotal experiences and evidence…. very few women Catholics or Christians that I would consider actually Catholic/Christian go to community college. Most either subscribe to an avoidance of college all together or their families have such a high value on education that they miss out on the fact that college is less about education and more about a degree these days.
Probably the age range I would consider reliable for that is the 18-20 year old women that are planning on transferring to a full school after the first couple years.
The weird thing is that, the more I think about it, the more I care less about the debt that a woman would get and more I’d care about the environment itself. My work keeps me busy – right now I’m only able to spend weekends with the girl I started dating the last couple weeks. If she was anything other than a traditional Catholic girl that isn’t in school and works only part time…. I doubt it’d work. I just don’t have enough time to make lasting emotional impressions that would over ride the other impressions she gets during the week. To my knowledge I’m the only man she really interacts with regularly outside of church besides her father – I doubt this would be true for most women in any other environment.
Not necessarily a bad thing.
I’ve put aside my will when it comes to marriage…because from how it looks in this country, at this period of history, and where I’m at in the SMV-MMV scale…it’s probably not going to happen..
That doesn’t mean that it can’t happen. But it’s going to take divine intervention for it to happen. Meanwhile I’ll keep doing my mission.
I never knew that. I’ve only been deep south once, but the women there seemed hospitable and friendly. Southern culture is very strong there though.
While this certainly isn’t the case for all women in community college, a lot them who went there from my public high school was either because they didn’t have the grades to get into a university or because they had kids. I actually knew a quite few childhood friends who got pregnant as teens, took a semester off, and went back to community college. I also knew quite a few women who went to community college to save money because they don’t want the college debt.
@Leap ofa Beta: I go to an all women’s college and the only men I interact with are my dad and older brother. I also know of a few women like me there also. We are in an environment where we only socialize with other girls if you don’t go to college parties off campus. Because of this, I’ve pretty much accepted the fact that I probably won’t even have a chance of getting married until after I graduate from my college because my interaction with men is so limited to the point of 0.
Donal, Unfortunately younger men face just the same problems that older men looking for younger wives do: women don’t generally want to marry at that age.
Very true. However, this also means that there are a decent quantity of girls 20-25 with 1-2 n-counts starting to rethink chastity…especially the smarter ones, oft receptive to men 30-35. Admittedly, finding a virgin of decent looks of that age will be frightfully hard, and if that were my standard I would just forget marriage. There is a lot to say for being a single, in-shape, well-dressed, professional, and confident man age 35-45 living amid the cultural wreckage of the modern West. Practically a king; like what being a 19 yo girl must feel like. And if that gets boring, women aged 20-25 overseas are receptive to older Americans with character and standing. Quantity begets quality. If even that palls, one can become a monk or priest. Lots of options in life besides marriage.
Honestly, I think a young man’s best bet is to marry a high-school sweetheart, where he can hopefully rely on long experience together, as well as marrying her before all of the pressures which call for delayed marriage can be brought to bear.
True again. But that’s getting tougher ever year, and it’s hard for a young man to know his risks until he has some experience. I would have married badly at that age; divorce is common for young couples for a reason. Also, one can have similar experiences in other institutional environments (university, research, internships, specific work, etc.) to build similar relationships (that was my experience, around age 25).
Thank you for your comments everyone. I am going to try and write a post tomorrow covering how all of this works out for women.
Donal: If you’re speaking in the first person… stop looking at sociological graphs and start fishing for a good woman. Women DO get married young, they tend to be willing to do so when a man puts it on the table as a personal goal. They might not think of themselves as being interested in marriage, until it’s mentioned as a real possibility. (All kinds of very young women get married here – getting married is how Marines get to move out of the barracks). In other words, that nice young man with a conscience and a future wants to get hitched, and he’s looking for a wife? Gamechanger.
Lies, damned lies, and statistics. You want a good wife? You’ve got a good idea of what that means. Go find one. And God bless your search! 🙂
@ Hearthie,
This isn’t entirely really a first person account. Just an attempt to explain a problem that men face when getting older.
Oh, I know it happens. But it isn’t the norm. And when women marry young, its often to men their age.
Don’t worry that I’ve given up on this. I haven’t. I just wanted to make it clear to others who aren’t in the game that things are actually more difficult than they seems at first glance.
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-smiles- I just want to encourage a young man of character not to give up. Ladies (probably) old enough to be your mom, they want to see you married and happy. It’s a thing.
Thank you Hearthie. I am still playing the game, don’t you worry. I’m just realistic about the odds.
I appreciate that “thing”, and the spirit behind it.
College girls get swayed by careerism. Not a mrs degree. I dated in college and the girls did not want ltrs. They wanted status, money, goods etc.
This is church girls, remember. The church encourages this.
In my mid twenties there was a teen girl with a bad crush on me. Nice girl. But no way would that have been sanctioned, so i discouraged her.
Years later, i learn she became a single mommy. I guess the church smiled on that.
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The most offensive aspect is knowing that other guys got to bang your wife when she was younger, cuter, and more fun.
“So honey, I can only imagine how hot this little a** used to look. How many men got to plunder it before you sold the scratch-n-dent to me. For full price…”
I know several Christian virgins in their mid to late 20s. There are many women out there waiting for the one God has for them. Perhaps taking up a degree or auditing classes at an evangelical college would put you in the right milieu. The one I attended had a ratio of 3 women to every 1 man. I didn’t know any man who was single when he didn’t want to be. And chastity was the norm rather than the exception. I’m speaking of places like Wheaton, Messiah, Eastern University, Ceadarville Univ., etc. the coalition of Christian colleges and universities provides a good list.
I think that a 38 year old really has little business dating a 23 year old most of the time. A woman’s friends and family would be rightly cautious. You run the real risk of her wanting to spread her wings later when you thought you were getting a forever stay at home wife. Also, a 38 year old man is not at his peak in seeking marriage, but is beyond it. Most women (especially those closer to his age) will wonder why he hasn’t settled down already. At least one matchmaking service will charge more for men over 35 too. I think 31-34 is more of a sweet spot when it comes to looks/health, financial stability/career and overall maturity for men; but that’s just my opinion.
From: http://web.missouri.edu/~gearyd/MatechoicePDF.pdf
Bereczkei’s and Csanaky’s (1996) study of more than 1,800 Hungarian men and women who were 35 years of age or older (and thus not likely to have more children) found that women who had married older and better educated
men on average had more children, were less likely to get divorced, and reported higher levels of marital satisfaction than did women who married younger and/or less educated men. In short, marrying a culturally successful
man provides the woman with social, psychological, and reproductive benefits (Geary, 2000; Low, 2000).
The study in question:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222078815_Mate_choice_marital_success_and_reproduction_in_a_modern_society
So in other words. Whenever some older woman says older, wealthier, educated men aiming to marry young women is a bad thing because women who marry young are more likely divorce and so you as a high value man should be stuck having to choose their old low value asses, show them this study. Young women are divorcing the low value men (likely because since they are young they still have options whereas older women don’t), not the high value older men.
Chris, thanks for the links!