The Shrinking Gap- The Conundrum of Female SMV and Marriage

My latest post, which examined how male attractiveness increasing with age is thwarted by the current nature of the marriage market, prompted a female reader of mine to contact me. She agreed with my assessment of the state of the MMP for men, and then offered her thoughts on how things worked for women. I thought they were excellent points, and she graciously allowed me to integrate them into a post. The first part of this post will be quotes from the two of us, mostly hers, with some of my replies. The second part will be an analysis and summary of the points raised earlier.

I.

My reader, who wishes to remain anonymous, said this:

[As a woman it] may be, or rather, it is simple enough to attract a man in your age bracket that displays good overall LAMPS simply by being young and in shape while dressing and acting in a feminine manner. But that only gets my foot in the door. Once the serious talks begin, then there is a completely different set of things that I have to consider.

I think one of the more common situations I have encountered is a man who, nearing or in his early 30s, is ready to settle down with a woman younger than himself. But similarly to situations Red Pill men encounter with various women, he has already “lived his life,” so to speak. He has had numerous “relationships,” ONS’s and everything in between with various women usually starting from high school moving forward and he may have been heavy into the party/club scene which typically means he was also probably heavy into drugs/alcohol. Add a kid or two to put the icing on the cake. Then finally at some point in his late 20s/early 30s he “grows out of that phase” and wants to settle down and take his life and faith seriously. Now keep in mind, these are men in the age bracket to which I am directed to open my search. This search can continue well into my mid to late 20s where by then, my overall [SMV] and fertility are beginning their decline.

When I remarked that she was one of the few women who seemed as cautious of a man’s history as (aware) men tend to be of a woman’s history, she added this:

It’s common Red Pill knowledge what a fast lifestyle in ones twenties can do to woman, ranging from poor overall health, an inability to bond to one man, an overall jaded worldview and the list goes on. But I view it as more of a general thing: one’s past, man or woman, effects your future for better or worse. And speaking from a strictly Christian perspective, I’d be mistaken to attempt to hitch my wagon to a man that had his share of pump and dumps before deciding to settle down in the same way a man would avoid a woman with the same history. A lot can be said for forgiveness and repentance, but a man’s past still counts. At least for me, anyway. That goes equally for sinful misconduct outside the sexual arena, as well. These things can often times be clear markers of different character or personality flaws that may show up further down the road and should I be married to such a man and these patterns or behaviors rear their ugly heads… what can I do?

I responded with these observations:

You make a great point that there are really two different searches someone is conducting. The first is to search for someone who wants to marry, and the second is to search among those who want to marry for someone worth marrying.
I suspect that the reason why the kind of men you describe are common is because those men who never engaged in the party or hook-up have “checked out.” They eschew dating in general, most likely because they were burned one too many times by women.

It seems to be a general conundrum that both men and women face: those who are willing to marry are not worthy, and those who are worthy don’t want to marry.

Those were the most relevant parts of our conversation. This brings us to part 2.

II.

In my previous post, I explained the dilemma that men faced:

The older we get, the more attractive we become to women, but at the same time, there are less marriageable women available to us.

Women face a different situation, one that on its face seems quite a bit worse: Their SMV decreases over time, and there aren’t necessarily any more marriageable men available to them over time.

Women have the advantage of starting off in a better position than men, and that is a considerable advantage, to be sure. But in the current MMP it isn’t so much of an advantage as it could/should be. Younger women who want to marry young find that men their age don’t tend to want to marry. At least, that is what I have heard from my younger female readers, including the one who inspired this post. In this sense, younger men and women are alike; both eschew marriage for the time being. This is unfortunate for young women looking to marry, because younger men tend to have less baggage (just as younger women tend to have less baggage). Those younger men who do want to marry tend to be less attractive, and often are poor choices in other ways as well.

Once you start to look at the older cohort of men you find that they are more attractive, and more eager to marry. On the flip side, they oftentimes have a lot of baggage from their wild and crazy years. While most men don’t build up the same amount of baggage that women do on the carousel, it can and will affect them nonetheless. Most of the men who don’t have baggage fall into two camps: those who chose not to accumulate baggage, and those who couldnt accumulate baggage. The first group is a small percentage of the population, and hard to find (at least, that is what I’ve heard from my female readers). The second group are often poor choices for marriage, because their lack of baggage is largely a result of deficiencies on their part. Also, many of them might not be interested in marriage to begin with, and the absence of baggage arose from the fact that they have left the field and no longer play the game (think MGTOW).

So all in all, for a woman looking for a good man without baggage to be her husband, the pickings look slim indeed. Much the same as it is for men. To repeat myself, those who are willing to marry are usually not worthy, and those who are worthy usually don’t want to marry. And this seems to be the case for men and women.

Thus we get the conundrum that marriage minded women face in the present age: They start out near the peak of their attractiveness, but are in a race against the clock to find marriageable men before their attractiveness fades so much they no longer interest those men.

 

Update: In case it wasn’t clear enough in the main post, this post is written from the perspective of some of my female readers. I don’t necessarily think that all of the observations are correct, but I assumed them to be true for the sake of argument in this post. It was either that, or call them liars. Despite that, I think the ultimate conclusion is still accurate.

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175 Comments

Filed under Attraction, Christianity, Courtship, Marriage, Men, Red Pill, Sexual Market Place, Women

175 responses to “The Shrinking Gap- The Conundrum of Female SMV and Marriage

  1. And I’m really sorry to see that so few men – who themselves have been harmed by the dreadful modern S/MMP – seem to be able to muster any righteous sorrow for their sisters in Christ who have done their best to live in obedience to Him.

    The smp is always about the woman. That rankles. Chaste men are shamed. Even women that want to marry want it for their own ends. Not to serve a husband, but to take from him.

    I have limited empathy for modern women. I can forgive but not forget. The scars run too deep.

  2. done their best to live in obedience to Him.

    By shaming men, their fellow servants for being chaste? By running up debt? By doing useless degrees? By embracing careerism? By shaming sisters who dared to marry before the herd was ‘ready?’ By refusing dates with god fearing decent men, and asking the pastor to pray in a bf, in front of every single man in the church? By falling pregnant out of wedlock to a bad boy? By warning off new girls in church of every less than alpha man? By frivorcing the man she once said she loved?

  3. Hey Donal, interesting post.

    @DonalGraeme:
    “So all in all, for a woman looking for a good man without baggage to be her husband, the pickings look slim indeed. Much the same as it is for men. To repeat myself, those who are willing to marry are usually not worthy, and those who are worthy usually don’t want to marry. And this seems to be the case for men and women.”

    To me, it seems it’s NOT the same for women as it is for men. Those who are willing to marry include men like yourself, Frank, Fuzzie Wuzzie, Deep Strength and so many other truth-seeking men whom appear worthy (as far as one can gather online…) and so many others.
    The reason it seems abundantly clear it’s NOT equal, is that the ratio of ‘worthy older singles’ from men to women is way out of balance. Why? Because it is so so much easier for a woman to get someone to have sex with them than it is for a man.
    So the odds are that the average 28 year old single woman waiting to get married HAS ‘mistakes’ she carries with her. Less likely is that the average man who’s hoping to get married has the same.
    Whether by virtue, logic, rational, or perhaps lack of opportunity – I don’t know, but I’m pretty certain it’s NOT much the same for women as it is for men.
    In general.

    The woman you describe in the OP with concerns over her future husband’s purity should certainly wait to meet a virgin. Assortive mating is something I feel very strongly about, it makes most logical sense in every way I can imagine. That being said, male sexuality is treated very differently in the bible to female sexual conduct. Anyhow, even just so the woman doesn’t feel morally superior to her future husband, she ought to marry someone pure.

    The thing that seems simple to me is that meeting eligible men who HAVE chosen to be pure even in this day and age, is far far far more likely than the reverse.

    As for ‘compatibility’…. meh. Male and female God created them, and they fit together. What else is essential?

    One last thought – a woman’s best years is in our youth. A man’s is ahead of him. Men may feel despondent as they face a bleak reality today, but perhaps women are already desperately fearful of the future?

  4. I think she was referring to women who have stayed chaste, Observer. That means the bastard and divorce comments should be excluded.

    The Shadowed Knight

  5. Ton

    To have compassion for a woman’s plight requires the assumption she is genuine. Woman have taught many men to never make that mistake.

  6. Ton

    Hey Hannah, you were.correct, that Ron Swanson character on parks ad rec is pretty damn funny

  7. “I was born ready, I’m Ron @$%* Swanson!”
    Glad you watched it Ton, pleased you like him 🙂

  8. deti

    @ SSM:

    “Deti is treating her like she’s lying simply because she says that she is chaste and prefers to marry a chaste man.”

    No, I am not treating her like she’s lying. I’m treating her story with skepticism. She says “IANLT”. I say “prove it”. She might very well be correct. To establish that she Is Not Like That, she will need proof. But you see, then she admits that she Is Like That (but does not act Like That) when she says this:

    “While I don’t deny that I have an involuntary sense of intrigue for these types of guys (defined around here as attraction), I have long since understood that letting it go beyond that would be disasterous for me and have therefore chosen to focus on what I “desire” in a man.”

    Look. I don’t deny at all that women who say they are chaste and want virgin men have it exceedingly difficult in this SMP. Men and women of low value have it very, very hard.

    FBNF’s stance is laudable in part because she admits being attracted to men she knows won’t be good for her. But to be honest, I’ve seen and grown up with lots and lots of girls and women who talked just like her; and threw it all out the window when CoolCat Playa rolled up in his tricked out BMW.

  9. deti

    In order for men to unlearn the errors of the past and learn the ways of the current SMP, men will have to learn about female nature and about how most women actually put their nature into practice and use it, so they can weed those out from the women like FBNF who want chaste men. This includes Christian men. They need to be taught and trained how to deal with the herd, not the rare lone mare.

    My problem with your stance, SSM, is that you insist men MUST accept at face value what women say. But we know that deep within every woman resides the capacity for great damage and harm. Exhibit A: FBNF, who admits she’s “intrigued by” (i.e. attracted to) Harley McBadboy and Alpha McGorgeous, but (claims to) avoid them. You yourself have admitted to your own bewilderment at your attraction to thugalicious men, as well as your simply not noticing “lesser” men AT ALL.

    The lone mare is one feeling and action away from rejoining the herd. A man needs to know how to weed out and filter for the lone mare by learning first how the herd operates, not by learning how the rare loner operates.

    And skepticism is not the same thing as calling someone a liar. Skepticism says “What you say might be right, but then again it might not. Let’s look at the evidence to see where it leads us. Let’s look at precedent, similar cases, similar situations. Let’s look at past performance because that can be a pretty good indicator of future results. Let’s look at how she acts over time. Let’s look at how she performs under pressure. Let’s see her respond to something that REALLY tests her mettle when she thinks no one is looking. “

    All that men are doing here is what women have done to men for thousands of years: Evaluate. Analyze. Make a judgment and act on it accordingly.

    But then when men do this, and put women’s claims under a microscope to see what’s there in addition to what she SAYS is there, the pushback is overwhelming. “You’re calling her a liar!” “Does it ALWAYS have to be about you men!?” “You’re shouting her down!”

    Why are women so resistant to having their claims examined? Why are women so resistant to a request that money be put their mouths are?

  10. femininebutnotfeminist

    @ Det,

    I hope you’re not saying that men / women who choose to remain chaste / virgins are of “low value”. If I misunderstood you there please correct me.

    If I were going to throw it all out the window for CoolCat Playa, I would have done so by now. In fact, I would have done so years ago when I was at the highest peak of desperation, and lacking some of the knowledge that I now have. It’s not like I haven’t had plenty of opportunities. I’m afraid that’s all the proof I have to offer you.

  11. deti

    FBNF:

    I didn’t say you were of low value. There are two categories:

    1. Men and women of low SMP value because of low attractiveness; and

    2. chaste Christians who have almost no value in the conventional SMP because they operate outside it. Or try to.

    If you truly are what you represent yourself to be online at this site, then you, my dear, truly are a rare lone mare. Men need to learn how to find you by first learning how to deal with the herd and how the vast, vast majority of women operate. What makes it more difficult is that you do not act Like That, but deep down inside you Are Like That. You said you are.

    I am too. All men want sex all the time with about 50% of the female population. Given the opportunity and unrestrained by sexual morality, I’d chase tail all the time. If I could actually succeed at it I’d have a lot, LOT more sex with a LOT more variety. That’s what my base, primal urges want and cry out for. But I have to temper that and restrain it. (Fortunately I have lots of help in that endeavor from mainstream Churchianity which shames me and calls me evil from every corner; human resource departments that will take away my job if I so much as look at a work cutie for two seconds too long; and police departments that will throw me in jail for trying to chat up some woman on the street.)

    You don’t have to prove anything to me, FBNF. You will, however, have to prove it to a gunshy good Christian man who has been burned almost beyond recognition by women who talked a good game, but when it came right down to it, wouldn’t give him the time of day.

  12. femininebutnotfeminist

    @ Deti,

    Thank you for clearing that up, I had misunderstood you.

    As far as prooving these things goes, I’m not so sure any chaste woman can actually prove that she is in fact chaste until her wedding night. By then he will have to have taken her word for it, unfortunately. That would in most cases not be smart for him to do. Now that’s a catch 22 if I’ve ever seen one…

  13. jack

    Somewhat off topic, but:

    DANGER!!!
    DON’T MARRY A WOMAN WHO IS NOT ATTRACTED TO YOU!

    http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/jordan-linn-graham-alleged-newlywed-killer-mail-cover-20774882

    Also, women make incompetent criminals.

  14. Chaste means many things.

  15. @ Hannah

    I saw you posted twice, one went through and the other didn’t. Did you want me to clear through your first comment?

    To me, it seems it’s NOT the same for women as it is for men. Those who are willing to marry include men like yourself, Frank, Fuzzie Wuzzie, Deep Strength and so many other truth-seeking men whom appear worthy (as far as one can gather online…) and so many others.

    True. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t worthy women out their either. The problem is the increasing difficult those “worthy” folks have in finding one another. I suspect that if it was easier to meet such people, many women would be making less “mistakes” (how I hate it when people use that word for what is obviously error) along the way.

    @ Deti

    I didn’t pick up SSM anywhere saying we men had to trust what women said. Just that we shouldn’t immediately disbelieve it outright.

  16. Hey Donal, thanks but the first one didn’t go through cos I used the wrong username info… then realised my error 🙂

  17. ballista74

    Why are women so resistant to having their claims examined? Why are women so resistant to a request that money be put their mouths are?

    Feminist Principle #1: Absolute female moral authority. Anything a woman says is not to be questioned. So saith the Book of Oprah.

  18. theshadowedknight

    The best takeaway from this for the women is that coming to the Androsphere and complaining about how hard you have it is not going to earn you much sympathy about it. The reason does not matter, the intentions are irrelevant, the fact is that you will not be received well.

    For men, it would be that women are not going to be much help in fixing things. It was not until the Androsphere became a force that women started to appear, and now that they are here, they are trying to direct it. If we want it done right, we have to do it ourselves. They can follow, and maybe make suggestions, but men need to be in charge.

    The Shadowed Knight

  19. Ton

    My experience in the military has taught me if you turn your back on a woman for 15 minutes it’s very likely she’s had another penis in her. The longer you extend that time period the more likely it is to be true.

    Somewhere in my random collection of texts messages, I have one from my young friend TSK. In it he says women don’t have claws, fangs, strength or raw intelligence to get what they want, they have lies and a vagina.

    Any man who doesn’t have that as his basic operating principle when dealing with women is a fool. Any man who
    Pretty much sums up what 43 years of dealing with women have taught me about women.

  20. Deep Strength

    Anyway, for those who care this is probably the most important contribution point I made to this thread after thinking long and hard about it:

    SD is actually a very good example of what will work best, for the most Christian women in the MMP with her marriage to her “gamma.” She quells her rebellion through constant study of Scripture, prayer, etc. and finds gratitude in all that he does for her.

    Most Christian women will need find someone that they are moderately attracted to, and then build him up through submission and gratitude to have him become her alpha.

    If a lot of Christian women want to attempt to hold out for their alpha, there are going to be a lot of disappointed single Christian women (with cats).

    Men will have to do something similar, although men tend to be more realistic about their chances with “women out of their league.” Men should realize that when he has sex with this wife (in marriage) he will bond to her and he will have wife goggles. It would help exceptionally if his wife makes every effort to improve her physical appearance for him, in order for him to be attracted to her.

    Obviously, there are a bunch of things at work here and I want to clarify the four different things that both spouses should be doing. There are 2 for women and 2 for men, one of each is to make yourself a more attractive spouse, and the other one is to be more attracted to your spouse.

    To be more attractive

    1. For women to be more attractive to their husbands:

    Take care of yourself. Proper nutrition, and exercise is essential. Dress how your husband likes it (if he likes feminine wear dresses and skirts, if he likes yoga pants wear yoga pants, etc.). Put on a touch of makeup if it helps. Don’t be fat. Shower your spouse with physical affection as men relate intimacy and love with sex. A husband won’t develop as strong wife goggles unless you regularly have sex with him. And semen is a natural hormone cocktail that will bind you to your man. Win-win.

    2. For men to be more attractive to their wives

    Improve all of the factors of PSALM/LAMPS if possible — take care of your looks, workouts should improve your athleticism, volunteer or be a leader in your church, cultivate said personality/[power as stated below, and work hard at your job.

    Have a mission that doesn’t include your wife. Your wife is there to be a helpmeet to you, she is not to be your life. Be a confident, masculine man. Aim to be better leaders and more assertive and dominant. Think in terms of the bigger spiritual picture when making decisions. Don’t be apologetic.

    <To be more attracted

    1. For women to be more attracted.

    Foster a spirit of humility — need to aim to be more grateful and submissive, Need to defer decisions to their husbands if they don’t want to deal with the stress of making them and then getting upset. Don’t complain. Encourage.

    2. For men to be more attracted.

    Appreciate the finer qualities of your woman. All women have good features on them. You may love that she has nice legs, or a nice butt, or nice abs. Her eyes may be mesmerizing to you. She may dress nice for you. You know what you like. Compliment her on it unapologetically, and initiate physical contact. Wife goggles are a good thing.

  21. Deep Strength

    Oops I fudged up that last bold brackets. Whatever.

    If the goal was to marry off most of the Christians in the MMP including the actual repentant formerly-slut Christian women then what is suggested to both men and women is to marry someone they are moderately attracted to. That would marry off most of them.

    Then the couples would have to work hard with the above 4 things to become more attracted to each other as time goes on.

    It’s a workable model. How it could be implemented well… that’s another question altogether.

    Unfortunately, I personally would not encourage or believe that a lot of men and women are going to marry someone they are head over heels in love with as is the current advice to both men and women in the manosphere. Such is the case of apex fallacy + most men being feminized for the women, and the big problem with obesity and entitlement for both men and women.

  22. Deep Strength

    Also, attitude of gratitude study has health benefits from Wintery Knight.

    http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2013/11/28/study-finds-that-attitude-of-gratitude-has-many-health-benefits-3/

    He who inspired the Bible and created humans must’ve been on to something…..

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