Today’s post is inspired by the comments of this post over at Dalrock’s. It will be divided into two parts, the first of which responds to a comment by “Bee”, while the second features some of my thoughts and commentary concerning a comment left by “stringtheory.”
I.
Here is part of what commenter Bee said in response to Deti talking about the incorrect, inaccurate and often outright deceptive teaching in church on the nature of men and women:
What would you teach a class of teenage, Christian men to give them the correct perspective?
Would you encourage the young men to marry young?
(Link to comment here)
I’m going to address them in order, starting with the question of “What would you teach a class of teenage, Christian men to give them the correct perspective?”
Well, the first thing I would do is advise that they read the Wisdom Books in the Bible. Proverbs, Sirach and Song of Songs especially. I know that most Protestant Bibles don’t have the Book of Sirach, which I think is a tragic loss for those who have never read it. Fortunately there are plenty of online resources where Sirach can be read in several different translations. So if you don’t want to buy a new Bible that would be a viable alternative. Both Sirach and Proverbs mesh well together in terms of explaining positive and negative traits in women. They warn men about the consequences of choosing a wife poorly and can help keep women off a pedestal. Song of Songs is useful for disabusing men of the notion that women are asexual creatures, which can again help keep away the pedestalization. All of that makes for a good, solid foundation.
Other passages in the Bible provide good lessons as well. Genesis has valuable insights of course. Potiphar’s wife’s advances on Joseph provide stark warning about female nature. Samson provides all kinds of object lessons. Both the story of David and Solomon have great value as well. All of these will tie in to what will be taught later about female nature.
Before going any further, I would tell these young Christian men that male sexuality is not inherently evil or twisted or anything of that sort. God created us as sexual creatures (save perhaps those with St. Paul’s gift), and that is a good thing. Teach them that sex is both proper and good inside of marriage- for it unites man and woman together as one flesh and is the avenue by which offspring come about- which is what God desires.
With that taken care of, I would explain to those teenage men what women find attractive in men. Help them understand the differences between Attraction traits and Desirability traits. Then I would explain to them why women find those traits attractive. Make it clear to them that most people out there, Christian or non-Christian, don’t understand this. Consequently, they will need to be suspicious of anything else they’ve been taught before which clashes with this. Inform them that there is a lot of bad teaching out there, and they need to be able to distinguish the truth from lies.
Then I would move on to explain other aspects of female nature. Some important examples include:
- Hypergamy
- The Good Genes/Good Provider dichotomy and how that plays out
- Fitness Tests
- The impact of a woman’s sexual history on marital stability
- The inability to negotiate desire
- The differences in how women communicate as compared to men
The Feminine Imperative (an ephemeral concept if there ever was one) would also be something that would need to be explained to them. While difficult to describe, it has a huge impact on nearly all aspects of our culture, and learning it is critical for men to understand why the present culture (within and without the Church) is what it is.
By the end of all these lessons, these young men should be able to see women for what they are: fallen, sinful creatures… just like men. This brings us to the second question- “Would you encourage the young men to marry young?”
The short answer to this is yes, I would. I’ve explained before why young marriage is a good thing. Young marriage would (or to be more accurate, could) help these young men avoid sexual immorality. However, that would be an incomplete answer. Because at the same time I would also encourage the young men to prepare for marrying young. That means getting serious about their life right away. If they pursue an education, don’t waste time on needless classes. Take what they need, and only what they need. Finish as swiftly as possible, so as to minimize debt and get into the workforce as soon as possible. Consider trade school if not looking at college or university. Also consider community college combined with a full or part-time job.
At the same time, it would also be necessary to encourage the parents of the young men to support their sons marrying young. Most Christians these days, parents especially are opposed to young marriage, on a variety of grounds- none of them really good. Expect a lot of resistance here. And that leads into the real problem with all of this. You see, encouraging young men to marry young is rather pointless unless you can encourage young women to marry young. Right now that isn’t happening, in fact it is the exact opposite. This provides the perfect lead-up to part two-
II.
Commenter Stringtheory left the following comments:
On a recent camping trip, one of the guys was telling us about how his 28 year old son had started taking antidepressants. His son has never suffered from depression but told his dad he was able to say the right things and get a prescription. He’s taking them to try and kill his sex drive because he’s simply tired of pursing women with no success. The dad is upset and angry. His son is reasonably attractive, a working professional with a decent income, but all the girls he asks out turn him down, or if he does go out they want to have sex right away and his son wants to wait until marriage. So instead of being tempted with porn or fornication he’s cutting out the source of his temptation. We were all talking about the morality of this. Is it wrong to kill one’s sex drive to avoid marriage or immorality?
(Link here)
I should correct my above statement. The question wasn’t “Is it wrong to kill one’s sex drive to avoid marriage or immorality?” but rather to avoid immorality. I want to make clear that my friend’s son wants to get married, but he simply can’t find any non-virgins and doesn’t think his prospects are going to get better any time soon. About six months ago he did strike up a friendship with an 19 year old who was (presumably) a virgin and things seemed to be moving along but it got quashed by the girl’s parents and church elders who thought that his interest was inappropriate given the age difference. After that he had had enough and started down the chemically eunuch route.
(Link here)
Most of my regular readers will likely understand why I sympathize with that young man. He sounds like a slightly younger version of myself, trying to clear much the same hurdles. Before answering stringtheory’s question, I want to continue where I left off- how young women are not encouraged to marry young.
I don’t recall if it was Novaseeker or Cail Corishev who once said something along the lines that there are few things that Christians fear these days so much as a young women with potential marrying young. Whether or not that accusation is true (I think it is for many), stringtheory’s account, and that of other Christians in this part of the web, does demonstrate that many if not most Christians do not want young, attractive virgin women to marry good, virtuous men. They just don’t. If there was no age gap, as there was here, then another reason would have been given for why the relationship should not have been. As for why so many Christians act in this manner, there are two different forces working together here- one relating to women and one relating to men.
When it comes to women, most Christians oppose on principle the idea of a young, (attractive) virgin marrying. Of course, if one or more of those traits is not present, then the opposition tends to melt away. She’s no longer young? Why then, of course she should marry. She’s not attractive? Well, it won’t be such a loss if that man, older or not, marries her (although this is still not favored- its just tolerated more). She’s no longer a virgin? Well, it would be good for that men to marry her and “save her” from her past mistakes. So for those young men that Bee was asking about… well, it really doesn’t matter if you encourage them to marry young or not. Because everyone else in church is encouraging the women the men want to marry (and should marry) to not marry. At least, not right away. Not until they get more “life experience” and other such nonsense. This really is one of the great tragedies of our age- the Christian women who should marry, and would make (all other things being equal) the best wives- those who are young and virgins, are for the large part essentially commanded that they shouldn’t marry until they are no longer young.
This brings us to the men. Based on what I have seen, and what others have relayed to me, it appears as though many Christians don’t want good, virtuous Christian men to marry well. Oh, they would never admit to it and would instead deny the accusation vociferously. They would protest and say that of course they want those nice men to marry well. But the women they want to marry, those young (hopefully attractive) virgins from the paragraph before, are basically off-limits to them. As for what women they are “allowed” to marry, that is, to court without scandal or reprisal? Yeah…. Honestly, sometimes I get the impression that a lot of Christians see good, virtuous men as janitors or sanitation workers who are expected to pick up the “trash” in church. If you continue to follow stringtheory’s comments in that thread he basically describes that exact phenomenon in action. Undoubtedly it is one of the major reasons why so many men are leaving the church right now. These men are essentially being punished for their virtue, which sure doesn’t help encourage it any, as incentives matter.
Before I close I also want to address the question of “Is it wrong to kill one’s sex drive to avoid [sexual] immorality?” I know that I have read some of the works of the early Church Fathers who discussed physical castration, and they made it clear that it was a sin. One’s body is holy, a gift from God, and is not to be disfigured. I think that the same reasoning would apply to chemical castration as well. Your brain is part of your body, and using chemicals to alter your brain chemistry to suppress, hinder or eliminate certain brain functions is harmful. Yes, the intent might be good, but the action itself is not just or ordered. Jesus was not being literal when he said we should cut off our hand if it caused us to be sin- he was applying a metaphor, as per his usual style. However, reasonable minds might differ and I am curious what my readers think about the subject. Is is acceptable to use chemicals to suppress one’s sex drive so as to avoid sexual immorality? Let me know in the comments.
Donal Graeme 
Feather Blade, I did read the whole thing. I was trying to get your intent. That is why I did not fly off the handle and start accusing you of anything. I wanted to make sure what you were trying to say before I said anything about it.
The Shadowed Knight
The Shadowed Knight: Then please accept my apologies for misreading your intent.
It is possible that my antecedents in the original post weren’t as precise as they could have been.
TSK, good post.
Is it children, or husbands and wives that disturbs you
It’s husbands having authority within relationships and families that so disturb. Hence, women should only be free to marry once they become damaged goods (e.g. have their 10 years of fun first).
Traditional marriage makes zero sense today for men except as practiced within subcultures…why religious men don’t see this today blows my mind.
Ok, checked with a pharmacist, and I was wrong about part of what I said. If your hormones are normal, as is the case (it sounds like at least) with stringtheory’s son, and you start taking a hormonal med, it could easily throw your hormones out of whack, and this could potentially (but not necessarily) cause him to become suicidal and/or violent even though he wasn’t before. So the chance of this happening is reason enough (IMO) to say it is absolutely NOT a good idea to attempt to castrate yourself (so to speak) chemically. Especially since decreased libido isn’t a side effect 100% of the time with these drugs. Just as with any drug, not all people react the exact same way to them.
To echo what alte said, I had a cousin who, after being dumped by his girlfriend at 17 years old, actually did put a gun to his head. He just couldn’t deal with it aparently. But nobody saw it coming. (No sympathies/appologies needed, it happened before I was born so I didn’t even know him). But yeah, something needs to be done…. we don’t need even one person committing suicide over “love”.
“He is in his prime, the girl in hers”
I’m not disputing this, I’m just pointing out that it’s possible that the parents might have sound reasons for running him off and that the age difference can have a provable detrimental effect on a young woman that should not be dismissed as irrelevant. Most parents want their children to marry someone of similar age.
Also, it’s less that he sounds insuitable, then that it’s possible that they’re holding out for a better offer. Women who marry in their twenties tend to get better mates.
Donal, thank you.
MDavid, that is why I said he should leave. He has been judged by his church as unfit and unworthy of marriage. They threw him out of the community in utterly final terms. They do not want him, so he should leave them. If he cannot find welcome elsewhere, at least he does not have to listen to their accusations and judgments.
They sentenced him to death, a death of ten thousand days. They killed him more utterly than a bullet or blade ever could. He is not living, he is dying, and he gets to suffer through his death every day that passes. What does he really owe his killers?
The Shadowed Knight
deti, So when we talk about chaste Christian women, we’re talking about a very, very small group here. Vanishingly, infinitesimally small.
This is true, except within subcultures. How many Amish or Mennonite men marry a virgin? Lots. How many traditional Catholic girls (e.g. who attend Latin Mass) are virgins until marriage? I say most. Traditional Muslims? Again, lots. I would argue the majority of girls in all of these traditional tribes remain virgins until marriage, and the few who don’t have vanishingly small n-counts.
Note that these are also high fertility subgroups; i.e., they have lots of girls who generally marry young…while modern liberal women (aka sluts) have having less and less young young sluts every year. Subgroups are the future merely by having high fertility. Sluts don’t do well in the fertility department since birth control.
One more thing: Most men I meet today cannot not grasp that marriage is a communal deal. Women look to the culture around them when making decisions about chastity, submission, and marriage. They are simply not like men who are generally comfortable making their own way in the world. Wake up guys, we call them the weaker sex for a reason. Which brings me to your point. When we talk about chaste Christian men, though, we’re talking about an enormous group. You are correct here, but men are fools to expect women will be like them. How many times does Charlie Brown have to have the football pulled away before he realizes that Lucy is not worth his time? Marriage is a fool’s game for men outside of traditional groups. The truth hurts, but it’s the truth nevertheless. Men should wake up and respond accordingly.
Donal, feel free to fix my italics & grammar errors. In too big a hurry to proofread.
[DG: Fixed italics]
Re: chemical castration. A minority might never recover completely:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_serotonin_reuptake_inhibitor#Sexual_dysfunction
@ TSK
What did Christ owe his killers?
I would advise to not think of it in terms of who owes what. Instead, the young man should realize that by their words and actions the “elders” of his “church” have demonstrated they are not disciples of the Lord. A good tree does not bear bad fruit, and their treatment of virtuous young men as janitors in the church is bad fruit indeed. I would say that the provisions of 1 Cor 5:11-13 apply. He shouldn’t associate with them as they are immoral.
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What did Christ owe his killers?
These men are not Christ, nor are they Christlike. They are corrupt and disloyal, and he should leave them behind to suffer the consequences of their actions.
If men are to expect things of one another, and to form bonds and communities, then they most certainly do owe each other their loyalty. Anyone who betrays his community is devoid of honor. When this man was betrayed by his community, they lost any claim to his fealty. He has been cast out, so they cannot expect anything of him. They were obliged to treat him fairly, and they failed to do so. So, yes, he has no debt, no obligations; he does not owe them a thing.
The Shadowed Knight
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I know a 27 year unkissed virgin. However she is black and disabled a hard worker and kind what advice do you have her. Other than become white.
@ Andrea
That is a tough situation.
While many non-blacks may not be interested in a black woman, not all are so inclined. So being open to a multi-racial marriage will help, and will probably be necessary, as the black community (at least here in the US) is in a bad way, especially when it comes to producing marriageable young men.
The disabled component could also be a major problem. How disabled? What is impacted? Could she still act as a housekeeper? Watch over the kids? Homeschool? Does it affect her attractiveness? That could be a difficult obstacle to overcome. Also, would it affect her sex life with a future husband? If so, she might be completely out of luck.
@donalgane she can do things like vacuum dust clean in the bathroom iron. From what she told me interested in kissing and having a very short wedding reception if you get my picture as she will a nearly 30 old virgin at of she marry before 2016.
How old were you when you married ?
Andrea, I’m not married. Hence the reason why my advice is of limited utility, and cautioned as being mostly speculative.
I newer to your sites and not trying to troll but why don’t pull a Tama and ask a men who believe what you believes and have daughter maybe 17 or 18 to marry her
Andrea, no need to apologize. I must have been harsher in my response than intended, it wasn’t meant as a critique, just an explanation.
I’m not familiar with Tama, so I don’t know what you mean by it.
Unfortunately, I don’t really know any men like that with marriageable daughters. And that includes older daughters in the early to mid twenties.
How old are you? Are you again being engaged to girl who is 14 or 15 And waiting until she is 18
Andrea, I’m in the 28-34 demographic. Personally, I think I could live with it, if she and her parents could accept that kind of age gap. Waiting 3 to 4 years would be tough for me, but not insurmountable. I’ve waited far longer than that thus far. Plus it would be easier knowing that someone is at the end of that wait.
It is an interesting question, certainly.
Would marry someone your age is she were not a virgin ei a traffic-victim or someone a career to paid off debts. Of a woman who can’t marry due to being a virgin over 25
Andrea,
I had trouble understanding your post, so I’m going to make an educated guess at your questions and answer those guesses.
First, the younger woman would marry someone my age… but the question is would I marry her if she were not a virgin, because she was a victim of sex-trafficking (or perhaps a prostitute? Didn’t really understand that career part).
The answer to that is no. There are many reasons behind that answer, but that is what it is.
The last part I’m guess is: would I marry a woman who cannot marry due to being a virgin over 25?
First off, my preference range is for women 18-25. I would not rule out a woman over 25, but I would hesitate and vet more carefully the older she is. Again, complicated reasons why, but they aren’t because she is a virgin. That is the only reason she would even be in contention.
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That is a question that should be asked every time a marriage is prevented for silly reasons like age or education or career. Why do you hate families? Do not let them go, until they answer it, or flee from you. Hold them to it. Why do you hate families? Is it children, or husbands and wives that disturbs you, so? Why do you hate families?
Why does it bother some people to know parents are allowed to have a say on what kinds of families their children form? Why does it bother you to know parents have their reasons to justify why they do or don’t approve of courtship partners?
I read these posts and no longer find these kinds of questions or statements bizarre. They always seem to come from people who don’t have children…and clearly could not understand the amount of sacrifice and energy invested into ensuring that their children should be in the best situation. Regardless of what YOU think.
Maea,
You are correct that most of those who make such statements do not have children.
Further, I happen to think that parents should have considerable sway in whom their parents marry.
However, I also sympathize with those who make such statements. Why? Because most parents, from my experience (and theirs), don’t exercise that authority very well. Again, it isn’t so much that parents have reasons to justify their actions, it is that those reasons are usually poor ones.
It’s easy to say parents don’t exercise their authority well. It’s not the place of the childless (and unmarried childless) to decide. I do agree it’s also not the place of the church to interfere, either. It seems there is a lot of anger directed to parents because the aggrieved seem to believe they were owed. This is concerning…there is an underlying attitude of entitlement to courtship and marriage.
I am sure parents would have just as strong of views to voice from their perspective.
Alright, enough with this entitlement shit. Let us get something straight: men and women are going to get together and have sex. It will happen, and nothing you do will stop it. The deal was hard work was rewarded with women. Now the deal has turned into work hard and you will have to wait and see.
Abusing men’s good nature is going to make men bad natured. Bad natured men do things like murder, rape, steal, burn, and riot. If you do not give men their women, they will take them, at the end of a gun or the edge of a knife. At least no one will be taking it out of a sense of entitlement, though, right? We will do it because we want to, and because we can. Better than feeling owed, that is for sure.
The Shadowed Knight
Good for you, why don’t you give yourself a pat on the back. That’ll teach those pesky parents to stop interfering.
Which one is it— men and women getting together, or men taking their women by force?
Maea, if parents keep preventing marriages, one of three things will happen. One, your daughters will become harlots, and you will have failed as parents. Two, your daughters will become barren spinsters, and you will have failed as parents. Three, your daughters will become rebellious and marry against your wishes, and you will have failed as parents.
In the meantime, all the men who would have married the harlots or spinsters will begin to gather. At some point, they will lash out. This will bring the rebellious and harlots to them, and their behavior becomes self reinforcing and by them you cannot do anything about it. All because you were a failure as a parent. Good job.
The Shadowed Knight
Another thing that I forgot. All those men gathering on the edge? They are not working to keep society going. They are doing only what they need to in order to get by.
I was tested when I entered the military. AFQT was 99, which is a percentile score, and GT–a general testing composite score–was 145/150. I work as a janitor at a grocery store because I like it. Hardly an optimal use of my potential, but I do well enough.
How many men like me can your society waste on jobs like that? How many vital positions are unfilled because we got tired of working too hard?
The Shadowed Knight
This discussion between TSK, Mae, DG is rich. Like arguing over who gets the biggest bowl of rock soup. Comments:
1) Parents shouldn’t have much role in whom adult children marry. Parent’s role: teach, advise, provide. It’s the kid’s life (and soul). God gives free will.
2) One of the reasons parents are so restrictive today is they have so few kids and have none to spare on screw-ups. Christians using BC saw to that.
3) I would hope kids have more sense than to date or marry people with an entitlement or micromanagement attitude (like on this thread).
4) No such thing today as the “church” providing a structure to marry within. It’s every man and woman for themselves (unless you have a tribe).
5) I’ve watched many children marry well today. All in private religious schools (under 25). Expensive, but works. It’s like salmon spawning.
mdavid, we agree much more than you may think– I agree with you is on teaching and advising from parents. We see few parents teach their children well about these things. But parents are people and they are allowed to make mistakes and have expectations (even unreasonable ones). It is not micromanagement, it’s being a parent. There’s plenty of devout Christian parents who’d attest to that.
To TSK– marriage is not some reward you get for being a good guy or girl, or for working hard, or being chaste. Marriage is a holy union where a man and woman promise to be together for life and welcome a family. If you don’t like the circumstances of your life, change it. Finger pointing about who is and isn’t in the right place of society isn’t going to change anything. You’re getting upset about not getting your slice of the pie when it’s probably sitting there.
I have yet to actually see devout Christian parents prevent marriage in real life. These are the people who facilitate the best marriages for their children, and all their children get married. The people who marry poorly weren’t taking marriage seriously in the first place.
Mae, You’re getting upset about not getting your slice of the pie when it’s probably sitting there.
Unlikely. To quote Sailer: A culture of male self-admiration tended to elicit high male achievement. (In contrast, in today’s culture of male denigration, males tend to live down to society’s expectations.)
Said another way: the pie shrinks every year due to family breakdown. Mate selection is terrible. Youth interested in traditional marriage will compete aggressively for the few remaining quality spouses (including traveling to where the good potential spouses are). Since the quality of women (and mothers) especially has imploded, men should work on aggressive self-improvement plus travel to have a shot at a decent woman. Average men should just skip marriage altogether (too much risk and not enough reward).
But average women are in trouble now too since so many men are dropping out. They should marry as young as possible. Their window is very tight to marry a decent guy. Each year they get worse. And fewer.
But what people shouldn’t do is think “it’s probably just sitting there”. It’s not. People should accept being single. Or get to work. But I agree with you that complaining about parents is silly. At least parents had kids. What’s the single person complaining about? They haven’t earned squat and “deserve” less.
mdavid, you’re correct once again about the shrinking pool of mates. I witness this phenomenon frequently in my generation.
I must also admit I can only speak from an already married woman’s perspective, raised in a patriarchal immigrant culture. Young marriage is pushed heavily by parents. Many of the parents border micromanaging-controlling behavior to ensure the marital future of their children. There is more urgency. The women from my cultural background who didn’t marry or were engaged by their mid-20’s contend with lower-quality suitors, and end up following the typical “American ways” of women. They are the ones used as the poster child for not taking marriage and courtship seriously.
People should accept being single. Or get to work.
Agreed.
MDavid, we tried letting young women choose their own spouses, and it has been a disaster. Young women decided to choose no spouse, and many partners.
Maea, if you do not reward good behavior, and reward bad behavior, you are going to get more bad behavior. How do I have to explain such a simple concept? I tried good behavior, and got nothing for my efforts. Bad behavior brings me peace and quiet, which is most of what I want, and I have not even had to start breaking things and killing people.
You may not have seen a marriage prevented in your life, but this thread is about that very occurrence. I know your reality seems the only reality, but it is not. Free Northerner also had a run in, and I seem to recall a couple other instances, as well. It happens.
I tried. I failed. I know one woman who does not have any obvious disqualifiers. One, and she is not interested. Now, of course, I would not say I deserve a woman. I am out of the game, and I am not interested in taking action to marry. Five years ago, it was a different story, because I was willing and able. Five years ago was the time to reach me, but now I am content on my own. I deserve nothing now, but I did, once.
How long do you think your Benedict Option or Christian Tribalism are going to last if you do not get men to sign on?
The Shadowed Knight
Maea, like to know what immigrant culture you hail from. Filipino? Indian? Catholic? Protestant? My matchmaking instincts want to know…
Funny thing about the Anglo is how much he relies on non-family community (and money) for mate selection. Immigrant cultures, usually coming from less rule of law tend to connect via families. But Anglos are slowly learning…private schools are the marriage tool of choice (it’s so bad often one girl will marry a fellow student and her spouse’s sibling will marry into the same family later). But always young.
Maea, the best analogy for current times is a war zone. The weak, unsupported, and unmotivated will perish.
“For right & wrong change places; everywhere
So many wars, so many shapes of crime
Confront us; no honor attends the plow,
The fields, bereft of tillers, all unkempt”
I’m from a non-Christian Indian culture, but I “married out”. My parents did approve of my husband’s family and my extended family was able to give their input on my husband, too. My sister married another Indian, and we knew his family for over a decade. What happens when people marry within the culture is somewhere down the line, someone knows someone else’s relative from “back home”. Marrying out is becoming more common due to the shrinking pool of mates.