A Lofty Double Standard

Vox over at Alpha Game has a great new post up today. Post being a somewhat loose term, as it is just an image. But as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. And boy does this 1k worth of words say a lot:

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I have seen and heard women be vicious about a lot of things. But without a doubt my experience has been that women are the most consistently savage when it comes to critiquing a man’s height. If you are of below average height… lets just say this: most women these days wouldn’t care if the average guy lived or died- but if you are short, well, many would rather you were dead.

Fortunately I’m not below average in height, much less short. But I have a lot of sympathy for men who are. A man needs to bring a lot more to the table to compete in the present SMP/MMP if his height is lacking.

Short Digression: One of the critiques aimed at my LAMPS/PSALM model was that there was no real place for height. I lumped it in with Looks, but given how much value women place in height, that moves Looks up way ahead of where I normally allocate its value. A few commenters have suggested I add Height as a separate attribute, and part of me is tempted. It is just that Looks is where it would fit naturally. Of course, in the simplified “APE” model it fits better into Appearance overall.

That aside done with, the response of the guy in that chat was the right one. There is a huge double standard out there when it comes to height. Women, for all their talk about not judging by appearance, will judge men unmercifully on that particular trait. And of course they blow up if men try and flip the tables on them. Imagine if that guy above had started by asking the woman’s weight. It would be the 4th of July. But her asking his height? Totally acceptable- or at least seen that way.

I am curious if any of my readers have been involved in conversations, discussions, debates, arguments where this particular topic has come up. If so, I would ask them to talk about how it all went. I don’t recall having been in one myself, so I am curious what would be said. And of course, I would like to prepare myself for that argument ahead of time too. So comment away if you have anything to add.

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12 Comments

Filed under Attraction, Blue Pill, Hypergamy, LAMPS, Marriage Market Place, Men, Red Pill, Sexual Market Place, Women

12 responses to “A Lofty Double Standard

  1. fuzziewuzziebear

    Donal,
    There are two things going on here. First, she is trying to impose arbitrary and unfair standards on men while, second, the man is trying to apply standards to her. While women are at liberty to apply any and all standards they choose, men are only allowed to accept women as they are.

    Women have taken this height issue to ridiculous lengths. Five foot two women are demanding six foot tall men as a minimum. I don’t think that any guy wants to date a shrimp. A four inch difference used to be thought ideal. It may be that women are using this as simply an arbitrary sorting mechanism. However, I am taller than average and it has been no help to me.

    That she goes wild at the end demonstrates that she can’t tolerate a man imposing standards on her.

    At some point, women are going to come to the realization that they are not that superior to men.

  2. MK

    DG, Imagine if that guy had started by asking the woman’s weight.

    She might react to keep up appearances, but I doubt she would be surprised. She would also have more respect for him as a potential partner. Women have little romance in them, and can spot a man who knows his worth at 100 yards. How he walks, dresses, stands, eyes her. And any dude who dares ask that question is gonna get a serious look. Why? He’s got options.

    Personally, I don’t see why anyone is offended, height or weight. The mating game is vicious. And there is no double standard when it comes down to it; women are dumped without mercy when they lack beauty or are fat, and they know it. We just don’t like to talk about it.

  3. Novaseeker

    As someone who is below average in height and has always done better with women than my friends who are taller than me (including guys who are well over 6′), I honestly don’t see this as a big deal. I did point it out to a woman once, how it was just as superficial as men’s physical preferences are, and less changeable, and the response wasn’t that negative, really — but she liked me already anyway.

    I think it’s fine for women to have physical standards, and many women are reluctant to breed with a man they see as a runt due to his height. I mean, if you were a woman, would you want to be stuck with the runt of the litter as a mate? It’s basically anti-hypergamy, and totally understandable as a part of women’s fundamental nature sexually. Yes, it’s harsh, but mating is the harshest game there is — it’s viscerally, epochally brutal and harsh, and you just have to accept that. If you’re a guy who is below average in height, you have to be above average in other things and you’ll do fine. Your pool is smaller (unless you’re a famous person), but it’s still there and there are plenty of women in it. Guys let themselves get inside their own heads about this sometimes, because it’s easier for them to think that no women will date them due to their height than it is for them to improve themselves and be attractive to the women who will do so if you have other things going on. Whining about double standards, however, isn’t one of the things you do in order to improve yourself in other areas, and its the precisely wrong attitude to have about your height, if you are challenged in that area. It only makes you get inside your head and defeat yourself before the game has even started.

  4. MK

    N, how it was just as superficial as men’s physical preferences are

    I wouldn’t conflate the two. A man’s height is unimportant to his success (in modern times) so is superficial. But a woman’s weight? Not superficial at all. It’s critical to her health, fertility, her virtue (or lack thereof) and to her children’s and family’s future (since she will probably handle the food). So while a man’s height objectively fairly superficial, a woman’s weight is momentous (heh) importance. In disclosure, I’m about 6′ and wife about 10# over proper BMI (recent birth).

  5. Cadders

    I’m not so sure this is as big (heh) an issue as you make out.

    I’m 5 foot 6. Just as women taller than me don’t find me attractive, I’ve never been sexually attracted in person to a woman taller than me. I might appreciate that she is pretty, sexy etc, but no women taller than me has ever passed the boner test. We are self selecting each other out of contention.

    Being short means that there is a higher bar to cross to get into play (this is where game comes in) but once you have built attraction most women’s demands for a 6 foot guy quickly get rationalized into simply ‘he must be taller then me’.

    I’m in the UK where the average height of women is 5 foot 3 inches. If I can’t get a women when about 60% of them are shorter then me, the problem isn’t my height, it’s my game.

    I’m not having a pop but this is not the first time that I have come across taller guys assuming that being short is a serious issue in getting with women. It means you have to put more work in and make more effort perhaps, but ultimately women are women. They crave to submit to a man worthy of their submission. Be that man and they will rationalize away your shortness, the same way they rationalize away any bit of reality that doesn’t fit the narrative they are following in their head.

    I will say though, that really short girls are the ones that are most insistent on taller men – I think this is related to regression to the mean. If you are a shorter guy, IME, you are best advised to put your efforts into women who are only 1 to 2 inches shorter than you.

  6. Novaseeker

    I will say though, that really short girls are the ones that are most insistent on taller men – I think this is related to regression to the mean. If you are a shorter guy, IME, you are best advised to put your efforts into women who are only 1 to 2 inches shorter than you.

    Yes.

    The 5’2 and under female set seems to have very strong preferences for men at least 6 foot tall, preferably taller. I think it has to do with wanting to offset their height in potential (especially male) offspring on a subconscious level. At 5’6″ you’re better off starting with girls who are 5’3″ and going right up to 5’5″. In the US female height has a lot of variables due to race and so on — probably more than in most of the UK — but at 5’6″ you’re still fine provided you are attractive in other ways.

    @MK — Hmmm. I think these preferences are wired in very deeply and have little to do with what is “rationally meaningful” in the specifically current context. So people tend to prefer what historically their sex has preferred, regardless of their own personal, or historical, context. So females prefer height for pleistocene reasons, even if it isn’t important now, and males prefer thin and fit even if they are marrying a woman who is 50 and have no intention of having kids — the preference, though irrational, is still there.

    And in any case, height is still a reproductive advantage for women in terms of increasing the likelihood that she will have taller (and more attractive, therefore higher replication likelihood) sons and grandsons — even in cases where the height isn’t specifically useful for THIS man in THIS life.

  7. dvdivx

    A 5’2″ woman who isn’t a slut, is thin and feminine will always win out against careerist fat slags irregardless of height. Unless she’s a midget I doubt height is a major deal beaker on attractive thin feminine women.

  8. MK

    Cad, I never thought about the short-girl tall-man thing. Makes sense.
    Nov, agreed, just think it superficial & rarely a deal-breaker. I do think fitness-muscle-aggression more primordial, important, & a deal-breaker.

  9. A female reader reached out to me via e-mail to basically confirm what a lot of you have been saying. Particularly short women do seek out much taller men. Although she indicated the man doesn’t need to be six feet tall or higher, but rather, at least the national average.

    This suggests to me that not only is there a compensation factor at play here, but also a social status factor as well. After all, women are judged by the men who commit to them. So it stands to reason that women want a taller (and thus generally more attractive) man not only because he is attractive to her, but because he will raise her own perceived value.

  10. Novaseeker

    A female reader reached out to me via e-mail to basically confirm what a lot of you have been saying. Particularly short women do seek out much taller men. Although she indicated the man doesn’t need to be six feet tall or higher, but rather, at least the national average.

    Probably right, although I have seen a LOT of 5’2″ women with 6 footers. A LOT of them.

    In any case, the key takeaway for shorter guys is that going for shorter girls isn’t really the answer. That’s what a lot of shorter guys think (based on the idea that they are at least a few inches taller than these girls), and then they end up failing at it and they get discouraged, when they need to understand that quite short women don’t want men who are a few inches taller than them, they want men who are average height or taller, and that women who are 1-3 inches shorter are going to be more receptive to a guy who is, say, 5’6″ or 5’7″ than a woman who is 5’1″ will be. Counterintuitive, but it’s how it works, and shorter guys need to understand that and act accordingly.

  11. anonymous_ng

    I’m 6’2″, which puts me about 1.5 standard deviations above the median in the US, or as tall or taller than about 95% of the men.

    That and $5 will get me coffee.

    Has it helped me with women? IDK. When I was in a bar every weekend post divorce doing the pickup thing, I noticed that in comparison to some of the other guys I ran with, women seemed to be more receptive to my approaches. I could sense their openness from ten feet away.

    I figure my math degree gets my resume looked at more than it would if I had a degree in computer science, and my height means that I catch a woman’s eye more than I would if I was six inches shorter, but if my time in the pickup world taught me anything, it’s that height and looks are a marginal advantage.

    But, those are in person encounters. Online is a much harsher arena.

    To the original question, no, I’ve never had that particular conversation.

  12. BuenaVista

    I’m 6’1″ so the only time height comes up is when I’m with a very tall woman who likes heels. By very tall I mean 6′ or taller, and my experience is they don’t care at that point so long as they can wear the fancy heels.

    I did have a bad dinner party with a girlfriend a couple of years ago. Our guest couple included an intrusive, vulgar, unattractive and chunky woman who apparently decided it was her job to vet my financial qualifications, for my girlfriend, who was their neighbor. At the dinner table she actually asked me what my annual income was (I had just transitioned to non-operating chairman) and how it compared to when I was CEO. I’d never met her before.

    I was a little drunk and without pause I just said, “Enough. And how much do you weigh?”

    That was a first for me.

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