None The Wiser

One of the important points which I raised in The Way We Met that I think bears repeating is that the woman gained no wisdom in the process. She didn’t come to any great realization that she needed to accept George. As I explained:

You see, reading the piece and looking at those photos tells me that the woman here wasn’t having issues accepting that she was supposed to be with George. Rather, the problem from the beginning was that George just wasn’t sexually attractive. He was too “Beta”, if you will. Since he wasn’t sexually attractive to her, his other great traits meant jack. However, as the years passed by George grew in confidence, and it shows in that second photo. Eventually his attractiveness grew to the point where she no longer dismissed him as a sexual partner. At that point his other great traits were able to come to the forefront[…]

It is a not infrequent refrain these days that women “wise up” when they get older. This is why they ignored “nice guys” and “good men” for so long, only to start paying them attention once they get older. Beforehand they were young and foolish. After some worldly wisdom sets in, they realize the error of their ways and shift their attention and affection (and impliedly their attraction) towards such men.

Nothing could be further from the truth in nearly all cases.

What is really happening is that women are adapting to changes in the sexual markeplace as they get older. At least, changes as it relates to their change in position vis-a-vis age. For ease of reference, Rollo’s chart again:

Print

As women age their value in the SMP declines.  Depending on the woman, this can be a gradual shift, or a disturbingly rapid one. Meanwhile, as a general rule men increase in value over time. Due to a variety of factors their LAMPS/PSALM attributes will increase as they age, making them overall more and more attractive to women. So when young, very few men have a high SMV, at least in relation to women.

Now, at the same time remember that women are far, far picker than men when it comes to sexual partners. They find far less men attractive out of the general population than men find women attractive in the general population. In addition, the woman’s own SMV will affect how she views the attractiveness of a man. The higher her SMV relative to that of the men she meets, the fewer and fewer she will find acceptable/sexually attractive.

Taken together, this means that when women are young and are at their peak, they tend to pick find only a handful of men to be attractive. [Again, there are always exceptions, but we are talking about the general population here.] Those men are almost never “nice guys” or “good men.” In other words, guys like how the woman described George. It is these men who women tend to favor with their affections.

However, as they age, and men increase in their SMV value, and women decrease in SMV value, this all shifts. All of a sudden a bunch of men who otherwise weren’t attractive in the eyes of a woman suddenly start to be more and more attractive. Many will actually reach the threshold where she actually rates them as attractive. At this point the man becomes a viable option, and all his other traits “click in to place.” Think George.

All of which brings us back to the point of this post- women are none the wiser at the end. They change, sure. But that change comes about from their decrease in relative SMV, and their understanding of their change in SMV. Otherwise, the real change takes place in the men she considers her peers. They are the ones changing… by becoming more attractive to her.

Wisdom requires a certain amount of reflection and self-examination. And that is simply not happening here. Instead, women are just adapting reflexively to changes in the SMP around them. They are not developing a newfound understanding about “Beta” traits. They are not suddenly finding them sexually appealing. Don’t let anyone fool you with notions that women naturally get wiser when they age- especially when romance is concerned. Keep a level head, and hopefully you will avoid a potential pitfall which others will try and lead you towards.

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29 Comments

Filed under Alpha, Attraction, Beta, Blue Pill, Hypergamy, Marriage, Red Pill, Sexual Market Place, Sexual Strategies, Women

29 responses to “None The Wiser

  1. “Wisdom requires a certain amount of reflection and self-examination. And that is simply not happening here.”

    Most women are generally incapable of both. It’s a feature, not a bug.

  2. Let me help you out Donal, because you guys and your seemingly compulsive tendency to over analyze things are getting it terribly wrong. There is a point where you think your way into There are very., very few women under age 35 who are at all internally affected by some decline in their so-called SMV. Certainly none under 30! The woman in that second photo might be 25 years old? Yeah, right.

    You say that women are none the wiser on the one hand and then on the other assert that her change of heart towards George is related to some awareness of her declining SMV relative to his. Which is it?

    I hypothesize that in HS she thought George was sweet but not hot, then a few years later as he grew some facial hair and got a bit more masculine looking she found herself attracted to him. People are not generally analyzing and calculating in their heads their value on the 1-10 scale, y’all. That is simply NOT how people live in the real world.

    (My *analysis* leaves aside the real problems with Christians treating people like sexual commodities. No, I am not denying the reality of sexual attraction. I’ve always readily admitted I married almost solely on the force of it, but I wasn’t claiming to be a devout believer at the time either.).

    Just my .02

  3. MK

    DG, women no wiser…they change via SMV drop…men change…

    I don’t challenge your data. But I do challenge the interpretation of it. She “gains” no wisdom because she is “genetically wise” from day one (aka knowing which men are “sexually attractive”. Darwin don’t lie.

    The origin of Mr. Nice Guy? K-strategy, low resource cultures (the West). But two things happened: Church lost marriage authority (Reformation), & women got rich (industrial revolution). Nice Guy? Now worthless.

    Women act “wisely” to this situation. Mr. “nice guy” folds up like a tent when challenged (no “husband” but a liability). Sure, she’ll settle facing the wall. But it’s still settling. Waiting gives a chance. Wise.

    Where Western women are “unwise” like their male counterparts? Their low fertility. They have not yet shed their k-strategy fertility strategy (yet). But we see r-strategy culture fast returning in the West. The age of the “beta” is over. The age of the pagan…is back!

  4. I remember dating women in their early thirties, and you could see them struggling to conduct themselves properly. They were so used to petulant behavior in their 20s, that becoming a person of character and composure in their 30s wlie climbing Everest for them.

    Eventually, they would cave in and start cussing, disrespecting people, etc. You don’t make a person be honorable overnight.

  5. fuzziewuzziebear

    We may need to go back to the drawing board to understand female sexual attraction. To think that women are subconsciously realigning their attraction for men as their SMV drops and men’s rises, I don’t think is happening. Outwardly, they like what they like and if their tastes change, it may be outside infulence. However, the woman that has lots of fun with alphas in her twenties, marries a beta in her thirties, will likely divorce him in her late thirties to forties to take up with the alphas again. I don’t think that her fundamental tastes changed. She just used her beta husband.
    Betas, God love love them, are the salt of the earth and keep civilization going. However, women don’t want them any more. It remains to be seen what the betas will do in reaction but it looks like withdrawal for now.
    I used to think that discovering how female sexuality operates would allow men to satisfy it but, the more I learn, the more antisocial it looks.

    I am sorry Donal. This wasn’t meant to b personal but, I think the manosphere’s theorem may be flawed. ZHowever, you masy be just the man to sort it out. No one has come close to your work on PSALM.

  6. Funny how men are shamed for being “overly analytical” when it comes to them realizing their role in the sexual strategies of women.

    Elspeth is half-right though, fewer and fewer women are phased by their SMV decay later and later in life thanks to the social conventions of the Feminine Imperative keeping them hubristically ignorant of it. It’s ego-satisfying right up until it isn’t.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3818068/Nicole-Scherzinger-reveals-regrets-sacrificing-life-career.html

    Women are none the wiser, but there’s a complex of social conventions ready to console them at the Wall that make them conveniently believe they are, or should be thought of, as wiser.

    If women can convince provisioning Beta men that their Hypergamous indiscretions of their Party Years were just necessary learning experiences to be ‘wiser’ and more ‘down to earth’, when they are less able to sexually compete with their sisters, they fulfill their sexual strategy in the long term.

    That is, until they grow tired of the doting beta and long for the Alphas they’re widowed from in their 20s.

  7. “I hypothesize that in HS she thought George was sweet but not hot, then a few years later as he grew some facial hair and got a bit more masculine looking she found herself attracted to him.”

    That’s only half of it.

    The other half is that as she grew older, after experiencing one failed sexual encount— er, “relationship”, after another, after she wept on George’s shoulder enough times, after he “proved” his beta “relationship” bona fides, she realized George was the best she was going to be able to get.

    If she had been able to make things work earlier with a more attractive man, there would never have been any photos of her with George after their senior prom. And George would have been pining away after her.

    She settled for George after everything else failed. George didn’t even get to be Plan B. He’s Plan J or K.

  8. “We may need to go back to the drawing board to understand female sexual attraction. To think that women are subconsciously realigning their attraction for men as their SMV drops and men’s rises, I don’t think is happening.”

    No, no reevaluation is needed. She didn’t realign her attraction for men as her SMV dropped and men’s rose. She is still as attracted to hot men at 35 as she was at 15, at 17, at 19, at 25. What’s happening is that she is recalibrating the level of man she is willing to accept as she ages. What’s happening is that she is compromising attraction for relationship suitability. What’s happening is that she gets someone who is more relationship suitable, makes her more comfortable, and less sexually attractive.

    If she could have made something work with a more attractive man earlier, she would have done it. She is with George now because she knows he’s the best she can do, she knows him from her youth, they have a history from when he was less attractive. Their relationship will be based on all these factors, putting the both of them solidly in her frame. This puts her firmly in control of the relationship. She will be able to control and direct the relationship based on all those factors.

  9. “(My *analysis* leaves aside the real problems with Christians treating people like sexual commodities. No, I am not denying the reality of sexual attraction. I’ve always readily admitted I married almost solely on the force of it, but I wasn’t claiming to be a devout believer at the time either.).”

    Christians need to accept the importance of sexual attraction and attractiveness in forming and sustaining relationships. You and a certain other female former manosphere blogger are living, breathing proof of this. The fact that you were not devout when you married, admittedly “almost solely on the force of” sexual attraction is also firm proof of this. So if we’re going to talk less about sexual attraction’s importance in Christian marriage, respectfully, you all need a different ambassador for that message.

    It simply is not possible for most men, even Christian men, to form and sustain relationships without hard sexual attraction from her to him.

    More importantly, recognizing the importance of sexual attraction in Christian relationships in no way involves Christians “treating people like sexual commodities”. You need sexual attraction to form a marriage. Marriage is a SEXUAL relationship. You can’t have a SEXUAL relationship without sexual attraction. Cannot be done.

  10. So if we’re going to talk less about sexual attraction’s importance in Christian marriage, respectfully, you all need a different ambassador for that message.

    First, stop lumping me in with other people like we’re some kind of club. At the risk of sounding snowflaky, there isn’t another *me* around here.

    Secondly, I think people should be attracted to the person they marry so I’m not trying to be an ambassador for that message. I’m not qualified anyway, although my oldest kid might be. And not because she’s ugly or fat. She is neither. She’s just far more mature than her mama was at 22.

    My point is that as the church we need to figure out how to disengage from the cultural tide so that the attraction cues necessary for believers to connect in a healthy way and marry aren’t so corrupted. In this current climate it seems almost impossible for good people to be attracted to and marry one another when there is no reason they shouldn’t be able to accomplish this.

    The standards are so unrealistic now (with hotness reigning supreme), and it’s not just women who have this problem. Don’t try and convince me otherwise. Men are certainly less picky than women on the main, but are quickly gaining on women in that area. You’d think George’s fiancee/wife -whatever she is- was a cow the way some of those comments read, instead of a pretty, healthy young woman who just happened to not be built like a Victoria’s Secret model.

  11. RA

    The body is as critical as the mind and the spirit toward the success of a marriage. Yet discussion is refrained from when it touches on the nature of women while discussing the nature of men. Or the discussion if entered consists entirely of the reframing that Dalrock has called out so well.

  12. MK

    E, as the church we need to figure out how to disengage from the cultural tide so the attraction necessary for believers to…

    Here we go again. No “church” in the West. Just individuals with stubbornly different opinions on marriage, relationships, and morality. Own it.

    …it seems almost impossible for good people to be attracted & marry one another when there is no reason they shouldn’t be able to

    Sheese. There are great reasons for this. Individualism. AKA zero moral obedience of faith on marriage and morality. Sow. Reap. QED.

    The standards are so unrealistic now (hotness reigning supreme)…George’s fiancee/wife…pretty, healthy young woman

    She was 20#+ overweight! At 20 yo! The Church calls it GLUTTONY and SLOTH (2 deadly sins). Wanna see her virtuous BMI? Pic #2.

  13. MK

    BTW I didn’t read all comments; so you were saying folk thought she was a “cow” in pic #2 not #1, that’s a red herring. 90+% would say she’s 7+.

  14. I get the impression that folks may be holding back. Please don’t. If you feel I am wrong, please say so. I can handle some criticism. Honest.

  15. feeriker

    My point is that as the church we need to figure out how to disengage from the cultural tide so that the attraction cues necessary for believers to connect in a healthy way and marry aren’t so corrupted. In this current climate it seems almost impossible for good people to be attracted to and marry one another when there is no reason they shouldn’t be able to accomplish this.

    Given that the church today, on a high-to-low priority scale of 1 to 20, places the formation and sustainment of Christian families somewhere around 250 doesn’t help matters at all either (cue “the church isn’t a matchmaking service” trope).

    As for the bolded part of your quote, it has become obvious that but for a tiny remnant that is essentially gathering underground and “off the grid,” this is not going to happen. Churchianity is the attempt to remain “culturally relevant” (i.e., remain OF the world) while pretending to live by Scriptural precepts, thus avoiding the sacrifices necessary to lead a Godly life. Foresaking cultural morms is painful and requires walking the talk, something most are spiritually ill-equipped for.

  16. “My point is that as the church we need to figure out how to disengage from the cultural tide so that the attraction cues necessary for believers to connect in a healthy way and marry aren’t so corrupted. In this current climate it seems almost impossible for good people to be attracted to and marry one another when there is no reason they shouldn’t be able to accomplish this.”

    “Disengag[ing] from the cultural tide” is only going to happen on an individual level. It is not going to happen on a society wide scale or even in the Church, not anywhere close to that. The Church has fully, completely embraced the idea that hotness is all — and it was the WOMEN who did this FIRST. I fully and completely reject any claim by women that men are being totally unreasonable here. Most men just want a woman who isn’t a total bitch and isn’t 100 pounds overweight.

    The standards are so unrealistic now (with hotness reigning supreme), and it’s not just women who have this problem. Don’t try and convince me otherwise. Men are certainly less picky than women on the main, but are quickly gaining on women in that area. You’d think George’s fiancee/wife -whatever she is- was a cow the way some of those comments read, instead of a pretty, healthy young woman who just happened to not be built like a Victoria’s Secret model.

    Please — men aren’t gaining on women in terms of having unrealistic standards for women. That’s patently absurd. NO one said the woman was a cow. They accurately said she was overweight in pic 1, BECAUSE SHE WAS. They accurately said she’d lost weight in pic 2, BECAUSE SHE HAD.

    It’s women who won’t date any man who doesn’t look like George (Clooney), that is. Or Clive Owen.

  17. I think you’re slightly off on this one. She doesn’t even look that old nor even close to being overweight. If anything, she got more attractive as well in the second picture.
    I think she chose him because he also got more attractive. He knew he got more attractive and so he grew confidence. Women like men with confidence.
    I think that is all there is to it. He improved over the years and so did she, they became compatible for eachother.
    Also she looks at the oldest 25. Young women (and trust me I just turned 21 not even a month ago) aren’t checking for older men either…that means men over a decade. Most of my friends actually wouldn’t even consider a guy who is more than 5 years older than them. I’m a little more lenient. This whole male peak SMV thing at 35 years old may only apply to women who are in their later twenties or early thirties because young women under 25 are not checking for men in their thirties. Not saying it isn’t possible but they aren’t falling for these men in droves.

  18. I think you’re slightly off on this one. She doesn’t even look that old nor even close to being overweight. If anything, she got more attractive as well in the second picture.

    I don’t think I said she was old. Just older. And she is overweight- just not grossly so. Perhaps an extra 20-30, not 40-50. Probably somewhere around 30% body fat percentage in the first photo, and maybe 25% in the second. Just guessing though, which I freely admit. And yes, this does mean she was more attractive in the second, or at least seems that way.

    He improved over the years and so did she, they became compatible for each other.

    By compatible you mean that he became acceptable to her. The reverse was not the case- she was always acceptable in his eyes.

  19. @ Elspeth

    You say that women are none the wiser on the one hand and then on the other assert that her change of heart towards George is related to some awareness of her declining SMV relative to his. Which is it?

    I suppose I could have been clearer. That awareness of which I speak is mostly subconscious/unconscious. I rather doubt she, or any women, for the matter, stops every now and then to ponder what her SMV is, and what the SMV of men around here is. This is all going on in the background. [The same would apply to men.]

    What I am saying is that she probably hasn’t realized that the reason why she can appreciate him as a great guy now is that he is currently “hot” in her eyes, and he wasn’t before.

    Again, her preferences haven’t changed here. She still is attracted to the same things as before. It is just that George has more of them now- higher LAMPS/PSALM score and all.

    My *analysis* leaves aside the real problems with Christians treating people like sexual commodities.

    I thought about giving a snarky answer to this, but I withheld. For one, I don’t think you deserve it. And second, I am not certain that I understand your intent. There are a lot of ways that can be interpreted, and I suspect many of them are not what you intended.

  20. @ MK

    Genetically wise is not wisdom. Pure and simple. Play what games you want with words, but my point stands. She did not gain any wisdom from this.

    @ Fuzzie

    You misunderstand me. I am not saying that what women are attracted to changes as they age. Rather, I am saying that their perception of a man’s Status is probably affected by her own, at least as SMV is concerned.

  21. Novaseeker

    In substance this is correct.

    I think people get sidetracked because they tend to view it in terms of perception — that is, what does the woman perceive, what is her intentional action, what are her thoughts at the time and so on. These are clearly not about SMV, alpha/beta and so on. That is all what is underneath, it is what explains things and helps to predict behaviors that can be otherwise hard to discern. It is the underlying unseen factor that sways overt things like perceptions, thoughts and intentions — that is the point.

    Of course there are exceptions to that. Sandberg is pretty intentional in her recommendation for young women to follow the AF/BB route in her book, and so at least *some* women are intentional about it and know what they are doing. Perhaps it’s the more analytically inclined women, or the more jaded/cynical women, or both. But I’d assume either way that it is still only a minority of women who consciously approach it that way. Even so, the underlying ideas remain correct, however — it is simply the case that for most women it explains underlying things that find their fruition in more overt perceptions, thoughts and intentions.

    To respond to some of the comments ..

    As for George, I don’t think he’s grown much in confidence. His behavior here is indicative of that — he’s handed her all of the power, and did it seemingly immediately. That’s not what a confident man does at any time. He has grown more physically attractive, yes, and we pretty much all agreed on that in the previous post. But that improvement does not seem to be reflected at all in his inner confidence, because an inwardly confident man would have been very skeptical of this relationship from the beginning at this stage, and would have been pursuing other ones.

    As for the issue of Christians and hotness and so on, you’re not going to get around that one as long as the marriage culture is based on a free market. In any free market, participants are trying to optimize, and so in the marriage free market people are trying to optimize as well, and this also applies to Christians. It’s not just “hot or not” when it comes to picking a spouse, obviously — it’s a lot of factors, for both men and women. But hot is not optional — it’s core, it’s necessary, it’s required, and it’s typically overlooked by churches who overemphasize spiritualization of the very human sexual relationship that is the core of what marriage is.

    As for people sizing one another up sexually, it’s true that most people aren’t identifying people by number constantly, but it’s also true that most people automatically size others up sexually very quickly. It just is the case. probably more common in men than in women because for men more women are sexually viable than is the case for women, but women do it, too, in the sense that they (1) notice a man who is paying them attention and (2) determine if he is hot or not almost instantly, as an *initial* matter. Women are doing this all the time, given the degree of male attention they get, even if they are only moderately attractive. So, the assessments are constantly happening, even in normal, non-obviously sexual day to day encounters between men and women, and ones that don’t involve any objective markers of interest like flirting or anything like that. It’s as normal and natural a human behavior as any other, and understanding that this is taking place on a constant basis actually helps us understand each other better, and be more effective and empathetic at the same time.

  22. “By compatible you mean that he became acceptable to her. The reverse was not the case- she was always acceptable in his eyes.”

    Isn’t that the definition of a red pill success story? The only way the story looks like a red pill fail is that they got married. If they had had a one night stand after the wedding that would be a red pill success. He would have proven his higher value by having sex with and rejecting a girl he used to like who didn’t like him but now does. It’s possibly a traditional marriage fail depending on details we don’t know for sure, such as if she was promiscuous or how much of a lap dog listener he was.

  23. MK

    DG, Genetically wise is not wisdom. Play what games you want with words, but my point stands. She did not gain any wisdom from this.

    No word games. You miss my point. She was wise in pursuing the highest quality mate she could get. She had a 10 year genetic window and must shop around. And she was wise to dump him until he showed his stuff. Where she was unwise? Not losing weight when she was young. She prob could have done better than George & saved a lot of trouble to boot.

    Where we might be in disagreement? I don’t pass moral judgement on her (I’m with Cassie & Church here; we must assume she has the high moral ground until shown otherwise; you were wrong to not do so).

    George, OTOH, was unwise (any definition) to chase. Men should enlist, never chase, and not until 25+ yo to know their value & learn the score.

  24. Leiff

    Deti nailed it.

    Elspeth is just going her duty as a card-carrying member of Team Woman.

  25. @ MK

    Where we might be in disagreement? I don’t pass moral judgement on her (I’m with Cassie & Church here; we must assume she has the high moral ground until shown otherwise; you were wrong to not do so).

    Funny, I don’t see where I pass moral judgement on her- at least, in the proper sense of it. The closest thing I can think of is my inference that her “bad relationships” were probably sexual in nature. That is an evaluation, not a condemnation. I am not saying she is going to hell because of them. After all, since she appears to be a rather typical American female, in all likelihood she doesn’t know that it was wrong (or at least the necessary extent of it). Under the western church view of sin that means that her sleeping around wasn’t mortal sin.

    Again, I am not calling her evil. Or malicious. Or even manipulative. I am just pointing out that statistically speaking, she was almost certainly engaging in sex during those bad relationships.

  26. Ame

    thedeti said, “This puts her firmly in control of the relationship. She will be able to control and direct the relationship based on all those factors.”

    imo, i think pic2 shows this clearly. her body is close to his, but her head is pulled away. take a look around women’s selfies with their friends … look at their heads. they close in together with their heads, often touching, when they’re close and the relationship is good and balanced in power.

    but here … she’s pulling away from him. i couldn’t articulate it but saw it, and i think thedeti nailed it … she’s in control. she’s keeping a distance. imo, if he were in control and she were submitting to that control, she would be leaning her head into him.

  27. Anonymous Reader

    “By compatible you mean that he became acceptable to her. The reverse was not the case- she was always acceptable in his eyes.”

    Patrick
    Isn’t that the definition of a red pill success story?

    No, because he has married on her terms. He’s in her frame. We can all hope that it lasts, but it’s an all too typical blue-pill start.

    As I mentioned on the previous thread on this topic, this is what “friends first” looks like and while it’s pretty on the surface it’s not so good deeper down. Because “beta orbiter first” is a recipe for a man marrying an alpha widow; I agree with Donal that given the modern world it’s extremely likely her sexual N count is above 1, and likely above 3. This leads to certain potential problems.

    The “friends first” model of marriage is more like an arranged marriage than a marriage-for-love. Nothing wrong with arranged marriage per se, they’ve been common for centuries in lots of cultures, however those cultures all have or had strong “guard rails” around the marriage to strengthen and encourage continuation. In the US it’s the opposite, “divorce porn” is ubiquitous.

    Any marriage may work. Some people meet in bars, hook up, shack up then make it legal and stay married for the rest of their lives. It happens. But the odds are kind of not in favor of that.

    Increasingly we know what works, and just for a start the man’s frame must dominate.

  28. Pingback: In Defense Of George | Donal Graeme

  29. People lean in when taking selfies because it’s the best way to fit both heads in the small lens and to accommodate the close up angle. Nothing to do with power balance.

    I have a pic with me and my husband similar to the one in the post and I assurevyoy he is unequivocally the dominant personality in this duo. More over analysis.

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