Of Fighting And The West

This post is a response to Vox Day’s post here, at Alpha Game. In his relatively brief post Vox criticizes both the MGTOW and PUA movements. A small snippet that conveys the principal themes of his post:

What MGTOW and PUAs have in common is that both paths are surrenders to the dyscivilizationists. Both paths are the result of literal demoralization, the MGTOW in the emotional sense, the PUA in the spiritual sense.

While the Red Pill is necessary for any Man of the West, there is only one effective way to fight for civilization, and that is to marry a white woman, have children with her, and raise those children to value and defend the West.

Summarized, Vox is making the following arguments:

  • The MGTOW and PUA movements are incompatible with a drive to save civilization
  • The West must be defended to save Civilization
  • The only way to fight for the West/Civilization is to marry (a white woman), have children and raise them properly

I have no fundamental objection to his first point, and so won’t address it. However, I will discuss the latter two arguments.

Give Upon on What, Exactly?

The title of Vox’s post is “They want you to give up.” Well, I get who “they” is from Vox’s post. But what exactly is it that they are giving up on? When Vox speaks of “The West”,  or “Western Civilization,” what exactly does he mean? Western Civilization as it stands now? As it did in 1950? Or 1850? How about 1350?
The truth is that you will likely find as many interpretations of “Western Civilization” as you will of the Bible. How does anyone agree on what it means? What happens if we disagree?

It is easy to call for a fight to save Western Civilization. But if there is no agreement as to what it means, than it will not be one fight but many. Because those who disagree about what Western Civ means will, sooner or later (and I predict sooner), start fighting one another. There is only one “West”, and we all cannot have our own version of it for it to remain the West for very long.

Married to the Fight

This brings me to Vox’s proposed solution to “fight” for the West: marry a white woman, have children, and raise them to value the West. Now, I happen to believe that history is won by those who show up, and so see some value in what he says. All the same, further examination is warranted.

Let’s start with his advocacy that the women be white. What exactly does he even mean by that? Before 1900 the Irish weren’t considered white. Neither were the Polish. Or many other Caucasian groups, for that matter. So which nationalities count? And how pure must such a woman be? 100%? To 3 generations, or 4?

In case it isn’t clear, I think Vox is being quite the fool here. While I am not one to argue that genetics and ethnicity plays no role in human affairs, at the same time I won’t give it the almost religious credence that some do. Genes ultimately are just markers of potential. If a man were to find a woman with a ton of good, positive traits, and her ancestors also had/have them, then that should be enough. Unless there are some other reasons why ethnicity would prohibit a good marriage (some exist, but are not universal).

In addition, there is also the problem that there aren’t enough good marriageable women out there. Simple fact. Marrying a poor choice of a woman is a fool’s move. Which means that some men out there are not going to be able to marry. Again, just a simple fact.

Does that mean that they are opposing “the West?” Or that they cannot help fight for it? I would respond with an emphatic No.

I believe that even if a man doesn’t marry he can be of great assistance to this struggle. For one, there are religious vocations (the priesthood, becoming a monk). Non-married men can also contribute to keeping “Pro-Western” communities going. Financial assistance is one way to do this- easing the burden on those who are married will help them have more children- which will benefit the community in the long run. They can teach and educate the youth (I believe it has been a significant mistake to have let this field be dominated by women). And so on and so forth.

In short, there are a lot of ways that they can help- if you approach it from a community level. I think it is a mistake to look at this only at the individual level. No man is truly an island. So long as the non-married men support their community and help build it up then they can still be a force for good.

And there you have it- my thoughts on the matter. Feel free to use the comments to voice your support, or shred my ideas.

 

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29 Comments

Filed under Christianity, Civilization, Marriage, Red Pill, The Church

29 responses to “Of Fighting And The West

  1. Pingback: Of Fighting And The West – Manosphere.org

  2. I understand why a high value male such as vd would advocate this. The problem for low to average men is that they are being encouraged to embrace risk in a system that is stacked against them. That assumes they find a woman worth wifing up to begin with.

    Most average women are reluctant to ‘settle’ for associative mating outcomes, as evidenced by the high divorce rate. This is a difficult cultural trend to change. Increasing the risk of financial and emotional evisceration by encouraging low to average value men into foolhardy conjugation doesn’t seem the best way forward.

    What would be better is harnessing the latent energy, often expressed negatively, of mgtow and pua adherents in ways that benefit long term societal outcomes without descending into fascism, or war. Tough ask and unlikely in this current environment, as the threats to civilisation (like maintaining food, running water, electricity in a deravelling, banister parasite economy) are not universally understood.

  3. fuzziewuzziebear

    I have to second. The biggest hole in the plan is finding a wife. After reading this today, I don’t think that there is much hope.
    http://news.nationalpost.com/life/i-am-still-single-how-one-man-swiped-right-on-200000-women-on-tinder-with-zero-success
    It is absolutely staggering and SF Bay Area women have no collective excuse.
    AS for monasteries, my memory of history on that point is a little rusty but, didn’t things have to settle down after the collapse of Rome before they started popping up?

  4. Novaseeker

    Keep in mind that his supporters in that thread claim that there are millions and millions of very attractive, chaste, Christian, white women in their early 20s just itching to get married. They’re everywhere. We’re all falling all over them. Really.

    More fundamentally, though, I think it really stems from a kind of WN obsession with white women. They’ve always been like that (note the inordinate number of posts he has up about so-called “mudsharking” for example), and this is just another case of it, as far as I can tell.

  5. Vox is off his rocker on this one.

    Civilization only ‘thrives’ when moral values and family are treasured as its foundation. Such is not the case in the US.

    The fact that there are very few marriagable women, PUAs, MGTOWs, and whatnot are just a symptom of the larger problem.

  6. I think “white” today refers to the descendants of European populations and their cultures. Ireland was exposed to Christianity before the Roman Empire fell. I don’t think it’s very relevant that European protestants in the 19th century US made it hard for Irish Catholic immigrants or others in terms of what white means.

    But it should be obvious that if “African-American” and “black” are synonymous, and “African-American” refers to people with African ancestors, then “white” refers to people with European ancestors. There are some difficulties with that since virtually all American black people have European ancestors, too. My guess is this one of those situations where the fact that there’s no “bright line” dividing everything up cleanly doesn’t mean race is imaginary.

    That said, I agree that Vox’s proposal doesn’t seem well-thought-out, or at least it’s good rhetoric that doesn’t necessarily break down neatly with logic. But the West is the same West that G.K. Chesterton was talking about in The Ballad of the White Horse, basically Christendom. Hillaire Belloc said “Europe is the Faith and the Faith is Europe.”

    “The gates of heaven are lightly locked,
    We do not guard our gold,
    Men may uproot where worlds begin,
    Or read the name of the nameless sin;
    But if he fail or if he win
    To no good man is told.The men of the East may spell the stars,
    And times and triumphs mark,
    But the men signed of the cross of Christ
    Go gaily in the dark. . .

    The wise men know what wicked things
    Are written on the sky,
    They trim sad lamps, they touch sad strings,
    Hearing the heavy purple wings,
    Where the forgotten seraph kings
    Still plot how God shall die. . .

    But you and all the kind of Christ
    Are ignorant and brave,
    And you have wars you hardly win
    And souls you hardly save.

    I tell you naught for your comfort,
    Yea, naught for your desire,
    Save that the sky grows darker yet
    And the sea rises higher.

    Night shall be thrice night over you,
    And heaven an iron cope.
    Do you have joy without a cause,
    Yea, faith without a hope?”

    I don’t see any reason why a black girl couldn’t get on board with that mission and make a good wife. On the other hand, the other day I was talking to some American Indians. One woman thought the tribal blood was getting too diluted and too many people were tribal members with very little Indian ancestry. I’m half Anglo-Saxon and half Saxon, and I kind of like the idea of “racial purity” the same way that woman liked it since a big majority of my ancestors are Saxons. If I made a Saxon woman pregnant, my kid would be like 90% Saxon and a little bit British.

  7. I think you’re getting too nitpicky over it. As far as I can tell, he simply means to fight for Christendom (though he mistakenly calls it western civilization). There are multiple ways of doing that. However, the one the average man is called to is married life. Live in such a way that, even if you never find a marriagable woman, your life is a testimony to the world, standing contrary to it as you pursue God

  8. MK

    Chad, I’m with you. But to Vox, Christendom is an invisible thing that holds no creed (but his own, natch). So he runs to “Western Civ”. Or Race. Sad.

    No visible Church? Goodbye Europe. It’s obvious. European Last Rites were said in 1930 by Anglicans when they OK’ed birth control. Within 100 years, the most common newborn in London was named Mohammad. God laughs.

    In addition, there is also the problem that there aren’t enough good marriageable women out there. Simple fact. Marrying a poor choice of a woman is a fool’s move.

    Western men face 1) extinction, 3) settling for less than perfect, or 3) marrying outside the West. Myself, I believe in life, practiced what I’ve preached, and never regretted it. But life is very hard, and anyone who claims otherwise is selling something.

  9. “In addition, there is also the problem that there aren’t enough good marriageable women out there. Simple fact. Marrying a poor choice of a woman is a fool’s move. Which means that some men out there are not going to be able to marry. Again, just a simple fact.”

    I don’t see this as an additional point which eviscerates Vox’s exhortations. I see it as THE point.

    I just had an, ahem, spirited discussion with the he-men over at AlphaGame. Why, there’s all kinds of marriageable virgins everywhere in “churches run by men”. Yeah. OK. Sure.

    Most men now aren’t attractive enough or wealthy enough to attract and keep the interest of one woman for 30 to 50 years, not when the culture has completely cut men off at the knees. It’s a women’s market now, and women want attractive, hot, wealthy, perfect men. And that is not most men. If you point this out, you’re a Gamma who’s raging impotently, not a man interested in self preservation and pointing out simple facts.

    OK. Well, they can have fun with that.

  10. Me? I’m already operating at 100% effort. I can’t put in any more effort than I already am. I can’t do any more than I’m doing. I won’t toss myself any more on the gummed up gears just because people say I should.

  11. Novaseeker

    I just had an, ahem, spirited discussion with the he-men over at AlphaGame.

    I know it’s tempting, but I wouldn’t waste the effort. Vox has his dedicated groupies, they even have a name for themselves, isn’t that precious? It’s almost like a cult, really, which makes sense given that he basically has his own religion (he can’t really be considered Christian — among other things, he disbelieves that God is omniscient).

    What you have there is a fairly bright guy who believes his own guff a bit too much, but who has attracted a set of groupies who engage in regular circle-jerks at his two sites. I see now that he has attracted the likes of Josh and Thinking Housewife that it is going even further downhill, alas.

  12. Michael Kozaki

    deti, I read your discussion at Vox. Cut through the angst, I see real disagreement there, not just “groupie” stuff. I see the “groupie” stuff going on here just as bad, in fact. My summary of the discussion:

    Deti: women are moral losers; think otherwise you are naive.
    Voxers: there are available subgroups of women who are not moral losers.

    I’m with Voxers, with the addendum that it is hard to break into such subgroups, and most Americans lack the mindset for it. Also, men are crazy to expect women to follow their individualistic religious opinions when the men answer to nobody themselves. Women are tribal creatures.

    You notice the Voxers keep talking about the restrictions of family and tribe. It’s real. You might open your mind up to to this possibility.

  13. Michael:

    I’ll tell you what I’ve said consistently.

    Most men now aren’t attractive enough or wealthy enough to attract and keep the interest of one woman for 30 to 50 years, not when the culture has completely cut men off at the knees. It’s a women’s market now, and women want attractive, hot, wealthy, perfect men. And that is not most men.

    And look at what Donal has pointed out:

    “there is also the problem that there aren’t enough good marriageable women out there. Simple fact. Marrying a poor choice of a woman is a fool’s move. Which means that some men out there are not going to be able to marry. Again, just a simple fact.”

    These two prongs are the problem. Your “solution” is “there are some women who are marriageable” and “it’s difficult and you might lose. Do it anyway.”

    Nope. Not tossing myself on the gears of “society” just because you and some faux rock-ribbed “voxers” say I should. Not advising others to set themselves up to fail just because some guys at a website are having a penis-measuring contest.

  14. BTW, “some women who are marriageable” is needles in haystacks. Not worth the time or effort, for the most part.

  15. Interesting convo as our oldest daughter and I were -just Wednesday- comparing her potential suitor pool as a veritable needle in a haystack scenario.

  16. Michael:

    Another thing re “family and tribe”:

    I grew up in a town of about 3900 people. A lot like the secluded little hamlets the voxers were talking about. Places where everyone knows everyone, “community”, and where all are “involved” in the life of the church. And they all intermarry, and they all know and love each other, and they all “make it work” and make lots of nice little babies.

    IF Donal will excuse me, that’s so much bullshit, then and now.

    What those damn little towns are, are disgusting little hypocritical hellholes where a quarter of the town is having affairs openly, another half is divorcing each other, and much of that 75% are either drunks, or dishonest corrupt gladhanding crooks. And if you are in the last 25%, if you’re in the “out group”, watch out. You will be either crucified on the gossip cross or run out of town on a rail. And you can absolutely FORGET about finding someone in that god forsaken little cesspool to marry you.

    I know about these vaunted little Rockwellian towns where all the men are good looking, all the women are strong and all the children are above average. They’re crappy little havens of hypocrisy, corruption, addiction, abuse, and adultery is what they are.

  17. Another thing: In those crappy little towns, the girls who are having sex know very, very well how to hide and conceal it. The adults certainly don’t know. This is where Evangelical American Princesses come from. They are all sexually active with boys and men from other little towns. They conduct their sex lives well away from anyone who could find out.

    So don’t even start with this crap about how, if girls were sleeping around, everyone (including adults and parents) would know. It’s crap. I know because I’ve seen it firsthand, up close. I also got the hell out of there the first chance I could, and go back only to see my parents.

  18. Jonadab-the-Rechabite

    …. there is only one effective way to fight for civilization, and that is to marry a white woman, have children with her, and raise those children to value and defend the West.

    Vox is close. My suggested improvements would be more like … “there is only one effective way to fight for civilization, and that is to marry a christian woman that is in submission to patriarchal authority, have children with her, and raise those children to love Christ and advance His kingdom.” The criteria for choosing a wife, is not about concerned with skin color or DNA except health and fitness, but about character and vision. By vision I do not mean eye care, but a visionary, one with a goal for family and the family’s legacy in the world. If a woman has no more vision that what makes her happy at the moment, move on, she is not your helper, but your obstacle.

    Vox makes an interesting point that both PUA’s and MGTOW’s are opting out, at least for the moment, on the dominion mandate for society. For the MGTOWs I think there exists a pilgrim-puritan like tension. Like the pilgrims they do not believe that society can sufficiently reform, so they opt out and are seeking a do over or are looking for a second Mayflower.

    I contend that there is no new land and no second mayflower waiting to take MGTOWs away. The dominion mandate to raise a godly seed still stands and for those who are not called to celibacy. Their best course of action is to cautiously seek out a godly wife and fight the fight that may cost them their life. Why would they do that? Only because the cause is just and necessary for the Kingdom of Christ to advance in their own life. To those that are called to singleness, stay single and live the consequences of singleness ie keep your zipper up!

  19. Novaseeker

    Also, men are crazy to expect women to follow their individualistic religious opinions when the men answer to nobody themselves.

    Of course this is exactly what Vox himself has done.

  20. Michael Kozaki

    deti, Your “solution” is “there are some women who are marriageable” and “it’s difficult and you might lose. Do it anyway.”

    No. My position? Men should focus on improving themselves and have a moral, active, and exciting life (fit, dressing sharp, social, work/play hard). They may find life so good they don’t even want a woman to ruin it. But if they want to marry, then pursue it aggressively (esp. overseas) and within a religious tribe. No woman good enough in the whole world? Well, that’s probably a clue of sorts, either to excessive standards or ego.

    Nova, Of course this is exactly what Vox himself has done

    Sure. But Vox doesn’t ask the tribe to bail him out to get married, he’s a good Prot & embraces his individualism. I respect that. What I can’t respect? Men demanding the “church” to hook them up when they answer to nobody (regardless of denomination, it’s all the West). Sow:Reap.

  21. Novaseeker

    Who is demanding the church to hook them up? Serious question. I don’t think that’s at all what Vox was talking about in his post (he wasn’t talking about specifically Christian men), so I’m curious as to the relevance of that point in a discussion about his post.

  22. Michael Kozaki

    Nova, Who is demanding the church to hook them up? Serious question.

    Nothing new here…I put “church” in quotes to denote an accepted marriage code (e.g. America 1950’s) that restricts female behavior so average men can marry, not just the elite. This is the root of most male marriage angst today. Therefore, morally divided men reap what they sow, and can’t look to the culture, law, or “church” to bail them out. Ideas have consequences.

  23. Keep in mind that his supporters in that thread claim that there are millions and millions of very attractive, chaste, Christian, white women in their early 20s just itching to get married.

    They are believers in what I call “cargo cult masculinity”. They think “real” masculinity just needs to be resurrected en masse through some magical act of will alone, and then all those slutty, lousy, sleazy, sassy, fattening women will suddenly turn into dedicated, race realist, Christian born-again virgins, just dying to marry all those fantastic white Christian alphas who just appeared out of nowhere and magically defeated feminism and leftism.

  24. I love Vox, but I’m thinking he’s not all that in touch with how thoroughly the Feminine Imperative, the cult of the sisterhood and open feminism have reformed contemporary Christianity.

    The modern church is a Beta farm and only exists to produce the same masculinity-confused men that the secular world has perfected today. I think he might believe that the church is some insulation against the FI when it is in fact an institution that produces the same men he sees as detrimental to society.

    The church isn’t curing anyone because the FI has rewritten the articles of faith he thinks will move men towards positive masculinity. The whore of babylon IS the church now. Christian men don’t want the Red Pill, they want a time machine.

  25. Michael Kozaki

    Rollo, modern church is a Beta farm & exists to produce the masculinity-confused men the secular world has perfected

    True. Why modern church makes no sense. Only Church or full secular.

    But honestly few modern men desire traditional Christian doctrine on sex (no divorce or birth control, male pastors only, etc.). Modern men get what they want; it’s the same trade Henry VIII made. Sow: Reap.

    Masculinity itself? Unchanged. Elite men do what they want and women love them for it. The shift? Today non-elite men get to experience the Darwinian sexual world of post-Church culture. Break it? Buy it.

  26. Lost Patrol

    “Christian men don’t want the Red Pill, they want a time machine.”

    As the self-appointed spokesman for all Christian men everywhere, I’d like to say we’ll have both of those please.
    ————————————————————————————-
    “The modern church is a Beta farm and only exists to produce the same masculinity-confused men that the secular world has perfected today.”

    I am conducting fact finding experiments in this exact area. Talk about a bitter pill. I wouldn’t say the modern church “only exists” to produce hapless men – I see it more as an unintended consequence of having ceded so much ground to secular feminism.

  27. I love the phrase “Beta Farm.” May have to use that for a post.

    I see it more as an unintended consequence of having ceded so much ground to secular feminism.

    More like ceding ground to women. The more power women were given, the more natural this outcome was. Once you understand female nature, it is easy to see how this outcome was inevitable once women were given the power and control they were in our present system.

  28. Lost Patrol

    Yes, women makes more sense in that they predate secular feminism.

    “The more power women were given…”

    Key Word: Given

    This is another area I find especially interesting (remember the original post is about fighting!). Women couldn’t really have TAKEN the level of power and control they currently enjoy – men gave it up. Have men been done in by their own magnanimity?

    OR – have I underestimated the unique ‘Chinese water torture’ fighting prowess of women? The power to kill without even conciously knowing how they did it.

    Lot of ground to cover here.

  29. Pingback: Beta Farming | Donal Graeme

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