Masculine Monday- #11

*Men Only*

I disagree with the PUA wing of the ‘sphere in a number of ways, nearly all of them significant. One area I want to touch on with this post is the way that most PUAs give women power over their lives. They will deny this, of course. Many will point out that they advocate taking women off the pedestal- if not smashing that pedestal outright. But pedestalizing women and giving them power over you is not the same thing.

This power transfer comes about when a man makes his notch count a metric to use in determining how much he “succeeds in life.” When a man does this, he gives women the ability to determine his level of success. It is women who hold the key to the treasure vault, as it were. He is reliant on them to become a success. This gives women power over you.

That a man can become astute at convincing women (or certain types of women, anyways) to sleep with him doesn’t change this. Sure they might be poor stewards of that power (nothing new, really). But they have that power all the same.

I would argue that an essential component of masculinity involves not being reliant on women to “succeed in life.” Boys are the ones who rely on women (mothers specifically) to tell them how great they are. Being a man means not needing a woman to tell you (whether in words or actions) just how great of a man you really are.

What, my son? What, son of my womb?
    What, son of my vows?
Give not your strength to women,
    your ways to those who destroy kings.

(Proverbs 31:2-3)

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18 Comments

Filed under Blue Pill, Masculinity, Men, Red Pill, Sex, Women

18 responses to “Masculine Monday- #11

  1. It is women who hold the key to the treasure vault, as it were.

    This is one thing I strongly disagree with even though it’s like gospel in the manosphere.

    Gamer Maxim: Pussy is just pussy.

    I have written four posts fleshing this out.

  2. Being able to convince people to do what you want is a skill…whether you’re a salesman, a teacher, a doctor, or a PUA. Game is useful in many areas of life.

    “…and a soft tongue breaks the bone.” Prov. 25:15

    Game is biblical if persuasion is biblical. It’s ironic that some of those who claim to hate the Bible love its precepts and those who claim to love the Bible hate its precepts.

  3. Game is required in proportion to the woman’s rebellion. The maxim is that women have control over sex, but men hold control of commitment. The thing is that we have a higher calling than our socio sexual rank. Focussing on performing the dance of game subtracts time we could be investing in true virtues.

  4. Like wanking to pr0n. So common among churchian males.

  5. Whatever people say, or whatever ‘maxims’ they have, the lives of PUAs revolve around women in the men’s thoughts, words, and deeds. They sacrifice their inheritance to the Greek demon Bacchus, and then try to claim that Christ would approve because they see it as necessary to survive. They see overlaps in information and a few bits of wisdom, and think we must be thrilled to agree. Or at least approve.

    The fact that an evil way of life can convince you that evil outlooks and dispositions inherent to game are necessary does not make it good, nor all of what has been swallowed true. There’s a reason lucifer is described as the deceiver

  6. Michael Kozaki

    PUAs give women power over their lives. They deny this

    PUAs are guys acting out their sexual desires in a short-term, logical way. The problem: “notch count” is a poor standard for success. A man who lets women grade his success? Pathetic, be he married, PUA, or otherwise.

    Everyone has needs and desires (air, water, food, shelter, clothing, sex). Those who can restrict our needs and desire have power over us. Of course many men, women, and society itself has power over us.

    But it works both ways. We have power over others. A man would do well to maximize his own power and “let go” of desires too strenuous to obtain and so refocus them into areas he can succeed, letting go of the sour grapes.

    But most men undersell themselves regarding women, PUA or otherwise. If they just set their own standards for success and then branch out (especially overseas) they find a whole new world of women. Basically, the world gives what one asks of it. Ask small? Get small.

    an essential component of masculinity involves not being reliant on women to “succeed in life.”

    Agreed. I would go even further: masculinity is not even attractive unless it is not reliant on women. Women know themselves too well.

  7. From the Unbearable Triteness of Hating:

    16. Dancing Monkey Hate

    Hater: Men who run game are just doing the bidding of women. Alphas don’t entertain women.

    If you want success with women, you are going to have to entertain them… one way or the other. The same is true of women. Once a woman stops entertaining men with her body, her femininity, and her commitment worthiness by getting fat, old, ugly, bitchy, or single mom-y, she stops having success with men. We are all doing the bidding of our biomechanical overlord, and on our knees to his will we surrender, by force or by choice. You fool yourself if you believe you have some plenary indulgence from this stark reality.

    Or: If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

    The first refrain you will hear from Blue Pill men when confronted with the observable success men have with women by using Game is that they pity those men for making women a metric of their personal worth. This is the Sour Grapes male version of what I wrote in Separating Values:

    https://therationalmale.com/2014/07/15/separating-values/

    It’s a natural defensive reflex for Blue Pill men confronting the harsh truths that Game/Red Pill/PUA reveal to them about women that destroys their long held ego-investments about them. So it becomes, “Yeah, Game works, but what a shallow life these guys lead by making women their life’s focus.” Thus they virtue signal that their steadfast dedication to Blue Pill conditioning hasn’t lost all merit.

    They conflate personal value with sexual market value much in the same way women expect their personal value should be a factor in men’s arousal and attraction to them. This is equally convenient because, likewise, SMV and personal worth are combined or separated as would protect their egos.

    Most PUAs worth their salt will tell you flatly the same thing I’ve advocated for years – women should only ever be a complement to a man’s life, never the focus of it. Women, sex, attraction, arousal, seduction, etc. should be a byproduct of genuine, demonstrated value and a responsive SMV. Blue Pill men (and particularly Christian Beta men raised on spiritual expectations of women) only see the end result of a lot of work and dedication to understand Red Pill truths on the part of PUAs and RP aware men who employ Game and change their lives and life perspectives because of it.

    A Christian perspective is never going to agree or align with men pursuing women for sex – at least on paper – yet they can’t argue with the results that the Game and the Red Pill produces. Solution: disqualify the intent of those results.

  8. @ Gamer

    Don’t quite get your first comment.

    Being able to convince people to do what you want is a skill…whether you’re a salesman, a teacher, a doctor, or a PUA. Game is useful in many areas of life.

    I don’t think I was arguing it wasn’t useful. Just that men shouldn’t make notch count the means by which they measure how much they win at life. Or even one means among others.

    Like wanking to pr0n. So common among churchian males.

    Was this an observation, or accusation? I generally like my commenters to keep on topic here. Please don’t abuse my patience.

    The thing is that we have a higher calling than our socio sexual rank. Focusing on performing the dance of game subtracts time we could be investing in true virtues.

    I agree with your first sentence. As for the second, “Game” can mean a lot of things- if it is about social mastery and dominance, then I would argue for some men it can be a valuable thing to invest in. Perhaps even most. It will help a man when interacting with others, including when evangelizing, among other things.

    @ Michael

    PUAs are guys acting out their sexual desires in a short-term, logical way. The problem: “notch count” is a poor standard for success. A man who lets women grade his success? Pathetic, be he married, PUA, or otherwise.

    Agree as to first sentence. I’ve argued the same before. The second is the core of this post, however inarticulate I might have been.

    A man would do well to maximize his own power and “let go” of desires too strenuous to obtain and so refocus them into areas he can succeed, letting go of the sour grapes.

    Sensible. Time is a precious and irreplaceable resource. Use it well.

    I would go even further: masculinity is not even attractive unless it is not reliant on women.

    Yup. I could swear that many Game types even have a word for this…

    @ Rollo

    It’s a natural defensive reflex for Blue Pill men confronting the harsh truths that Game/Red Pill/PUA reveal to them about women that destroys their long held ego-investments about them. So it becomes, “Yeah, Game works, but what a shallow life these guys lead by making women their life’s focus.” Thus they virtue signal that their steadfast dedication to Blue Pill conditioning hasn’t lost all merit.

    If you really think that is what is driving this post Rollo… well, let me just say that you clearly don’t understand me. And from the rest of your comment I’m not sure you understand my post either. It was not the intent of PUAs or the like I’m questioning, but the consequences that arise from their results (and yes, they do get them).

  9. ChevalierdeJohnstone

    The problem with your analysis, Mr. Dorsai, is that by leaving out Christian theological language you are sucked too far into the secular morass. The problem with the PUA culture – from which men can learn many good techniques – is not that it gives women power over the man. The problem is that in objectifying women as sexual tools a man gives power to Our Adversary. He succumbs to his own concupiscent nature and thereby gives power to the Evil One.
    It is only in the mutual and, in the true Church, sacramental exchange of power over each other in the holy vocation of marriage that a man and a woman may give to each other power completely and totally, despite, of course, the fact that no couple at their wedding ever understands even a tenth of what that means. And they can only do that by giving themselves entirely to their Creator.
    The techniques of game really are just a mix of embracing traditional masculine roles and applying some basic psychology, and in particular the psychology of communication / linguistic programming. There isn’t anything horribly enslaving about it. It’s when these techniques are used for demonic purposes that men become enslaved to, well, the demonic.
    Personally I’m consecrated to Jesus through Our Blessed Mother, so while I’m a horrible failure at it I have tried to give my whole self completely over to slavery to a woman…and I certainly feel none the worse for it. Nor do I feel emasculated in any way, except perhaps in those times when I fail to live according to my consecrated promise.
    What post-Christian culture desperately needs more than anything else and the only thing that will save those individuals trapped in this sinking death ship is the personal kingship and glory of Christ. It doesn’t do anybody any good to try to talk to secularists in secular language. A personal relationship with Jesus is the only solid foundation. (Even hatred! Personal hatred is a fine starting point!)

  10. Dvdivx

    It all boils down to who you use as your judge and measuring stick. If you use the world than its money and notch count. If you use God and his son than those two are a very poor measure of success. Even in churches the first question after perhaps your name is what you do for a living (your financial status). Mammon invaded the churches long ago. The apostles of Christ would all be loosers even to those whom attend the modern church as they were unpopular with women (as far as sexual status) and they were all poor. The only apostle who had a “dark triad” mentality was Judas.

  11. @ Donal

    To be honest, I think it goes deeper.

    One of the fundamental things people encounter with “the red pill” is that truth is coming from supposedly ‘low life’ type of characters.

    It’s not a surprise that culture would lie to us about many things. The nature of men and women is one of them but included is also various moral, social, scientific, and other issues too. However, the truly bad part is when culture is integrated within the Church to become churchianity. Not valuing the Truth or emphasizing the Truth, especially on the nature of men and women.

    It”s been my contention that if Christians were properly educated on the nature of men and women, putting each into it’s rightful place would be much easier. We have to decide each for ourselves whether we want to be a Patriarch or Monk. The latter is not dependent on women at all. The former accepts a helpmeet for the family.

    When you accept the Scripture at face value — your wife is your helpmeet (and not an equal or partner or whatever else culture or churchianity tells us) — you begin to understand God’s hierarchy better and how things should be.

    I don’t think it’s so much about ‘giving women power over you’ or ‘even being dependent on women to any extent’ but a correct frame of reference where the Scripture is “Truth” but other “truth” can come from anywhere. If that makes sense. (Truth being Scripture, truth being other sources)

  12. Michael Kozaki

    Donal, I didn’t mean to imply we disagree. I think we do. My comment was merely leading up to this part, which I feel important to your point:

    Everyone has needs and desires (air, water, food, shelter, clothing, sex). Those who can restrict our needs and desire have power over us. So of course men, women, and society itself has power over us.

    One of the great illusions of our day? We are somehow “independent” of others. It’s just not true. All religion and social connection is mere tradition (Latin for ‘passed on’). What we believe was passed on to us, one generation to the next. The bible itself (and it’s proper interpretation) is mere tradition. So is all parts of morality and culture.

    PUA is merely the logical extension of modern individualism into sex and marriage. It’s the same trade as divorce or birth control. The result is not pleasant for the successful person. For this reason, PUA is simply not a way of life many are interested in. Most would rather be a lobotomized Amish or a Mormon than a PUA, since being part of a tribe is just more natural to the human condition (and far more successful, speaking in Darwinian terms as PUA don’t have many successful offspring).

    Point: No man is independent of society. Nor, therefore, from women. Every man answers to women, every woman answers to men, all of us answers to tribe, God, and death. Or their linage and tribe perishes forever. Humans are social creatures, and there is no escape from this, no matter how hard we will it to be.

  13. Michael Kozaki

    Donal, I meant above “I think we do agree”

  14. A Visitor

    “PUAs are guys acting out their sexual desires in a short-term, logical way. The problem: “notch count” is a poor standard for success. A man who lets women grade his success? Pathetic, be he married, PUA, or otherwise.”

    Well, they’ll are enslaved to the flesh in the long term. Racking up as many conquests as possible eventually will become nihilistic for all of them. Just ask Roosh.

    “If they just set their own standards for success and then branch out (especially overseas) they find a whole new world of women. Basically, the world gives what one asks of it. Ask small? Get small.”

    Having dated foreign women, my experience has been negative. You could just do some digging for a diamond in the rough of your own backyard.

    “A Christian perspective is never going to agree or align with men pursuing women for sex – at least on paper – yet they can’t argue with the results that the Game and the Red Pill produces.”

    I knew Rollo wouldn’t agree. At least he acknowledged the reason we don’t agree.

  15. Hypothetical:

    An Alpha PUA Games and seduces 12 women in one month who enthusiastically fuck him and pursue him for more.

    An Omega MGTOW hires and fucks 12 different escorts in a month who fuck him with some convincing enthusiasm.

    A Beta husband manages to plead his case well enough to get his wife to give him lackluster starfish duty-sex 12 times in a month.

    Is the frequency of sex the metric by which we judge the character of the man or the perspective women apply to him?

    Don’t get hung up on frequency. I know enough men who’d gladly trade 12 lays with their otherwise deadbedroom wives for 1 intense sexual experience with a woman who displayed genuine desire and sexual adventurousness.

    If you believe that notch count is a metric by which PUAs or any man measure their “success” or determine their self-worth you really haven’t gone that far into Game.

  16. Michael Kozaki

    If you believe that notch count is a metric by which PUAs or any man measure their “success” or determine their self-worth you really haven’t gone that far into Game.

    My use of the term “notch count” wasn’t a precise one; the proper context is seen in my next line : A man who lets women grade his success? Pathetic, be he married, PUA, or otherwise. This includes N-count or quality of N-count.

    Point: any male-female relationship, any amount of sex, with any woman or number of women, will never be enough to change my view of who I am, what I stand for, and how I live. Nor for any man whose masculine ego is healthy. There is more to life than women.

  17. Pingback: This Week in Reaction (2016/06/26) - Social Matter

  18. Hosswire

    PUA concepts & techniques are just descriptions of the sexual marketplace reality & tools for effectively interacting with that reality. Used properly, they can give a man his power back.

    Despite what our sick, inverted, feminized society has told him, PUA teachings let him know that he is the prize & give him control of his sexual & romantic life.

    He can use that power to sleep with multiple women, or to find & keep a quality woman & raise a family. My guess is that — with the exception of the tiny visible handful who attempt to make a career out of teaching PUA skills — most men will do first one & then the other.

    It would be nice if we lived in a world where young men were taught useful descriptions of reality & tools for interacting effectively with that reality in a more moral & healthy way. But we don’t live in that world.

    Compared to the current sexual ideals being preached at young men by our sick society — A weird, contradictory mix of polymorphous depravity, utter license, woman-worship & a bitter, puritanical misandry — the PUA’s lessons of emulating traditional masculine behavior is actually a step in the more moral direction.

    Instead of moralizing about the immorality of PUA I would suggest that traditionalists build on the lessons that it imparts. And demonstrate how a man should live after he has effectively solved his problem of interacting with women.

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