Reference: Men Refusing To Marry Non-Virgins Won’t End The Hook-Up Culture

[This is a reference post, made to be linked to in the future by myself, or anyone else who finds it helpful and convenient. It may be updated over time to include both past and future conduct.]

Numerous solutions to the hook-up culture have been offered in the ‘sphere. One such solution goes something like this:

If men refused to marry non-virgins (with a few potential exceptions) then women would no longer participate in the hookup-culture.

Here is one example of such a statement:

Hookup culture is a great example. It could end tomorrow if the Church told the young men in the congregation not to marry nonvirgins except under special circumstances. It sends an indirect message to the girls that they’ll be held accountable for their behavior and offers no pre-made rationalization that will work.

Unfortunately, this would not work for a number of reasons. The hook-up culture would not end if Christian men refused to marry non-virgin women, it would not end even if all men refused to marry non-virgin women.

Here are some reasons why:

  1. Women do not have the same sense of time that men do. They are not, as a general rule, as forward thinking. Thus, they are less likely to consider the long term consequences of their actions. Therefore, many will fornicate even if they “know” the consequences, because at the time they won’t be thinking about them.
  2. Many women will believe (and this will have the strength of a religious conviction) that an exception will be made for them. They will be sure that the “right man” will come and marry them despite their past. Or they will be convinced that they will meet, somehow, the criteria to justify an exception. This will be the case even if there are no exceptions made.
  3. Women are, in their fallen state, naturally inclined towards sins and wrongdoing. Their Appetites lead them towards such temptation. The soul, through the Natural Law, might feel a pull towards marriage. But for most that pull is not, in and of itself, enough to overcome the demands of the flesh. This means that the “lure” of marriage will, for many, not be strong enough to overcome immediate desires.
  4. Many women, if given the choice between no marriage but he chance to have sex with attractive men, and marriage with little or no choice of that being with a truly attractive man, will choose the former. The “goods” of marriage are less than they used to be, and in the present environment women do not feel the same push or pull towards marriage as in the past. Hence, the hook-up culture is an attractive option for them. Especially with the removal of social stigma for it, and for its consequences (bastard children).
  5. Many women will believe that they can “cheat” the system by hiding the fact that they are not virgins. Plastic surgery and other devices can cover up or temporally hide the physical signs of past sexual activity. They can combine this by hiding their indiscretions. That means not keeping obvious boyfriends and engaging in secret hookups. Or perhaps keeping such behavior far from home, perhaps even overseas. That minimizes the chance of witnesses and someone talking.

This list is not exhaustive, and likely will be added to over time. Those who feel that they have additions to make to it may do so in the comments.

 

 

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28 Comments

Filed under Blue Pill, Christianity, Churchianity, Courtship, Marriage, Marriage Market Place, Red Pill, Reference, Sex, Sexual Market Place, Sexual Strategies, Sin, The Church, Women

28 responses to “Reference: Men Refusing To Marry Non-Virgins Won’t End The Hook-Up Culture

  1. A Visitor

    “Especially with the removal of social stigma for it, and for its consequences (bastard children)”

    Granted, the modern decay has been with us for decades. Furthermore, the push for acceptance of homosexuality and transgenderism may make one feel there’s an uphill battle to say the least, I posit two questions. Keep in mind I know you said Donal it won’t end the culture in its entirety.

    Nonetheless: 1) What if the Church were to do that coupled with stern reinforcement from parents? 2) (This may be really hard for people to do, especially to those they love) Slut shaming of those known to be promiscuous? This could take several forms.

    It may not end it but it’d be a start. Thoughts?

  2. Pingback: Reference: Men Refusing To Marry Non-Virgins Won’t End The Hook-Up Culture – Manosphere.com

  3. The vast majority of women prefer the company of high value men. Low and moderate value men withdrawing their interest may not change this much.

    Women will still join rotating harems when single and may prefer to be in polygamous relationships with a high value man, than ‘settle’ with a man of low or average value. Legislation will probably be changed to accommodate these preferences.

    The arrival of VR porn may accelerate this process as normal men decide that torturous negotiated relationships with post-war hypergamous women in their associative bracket simply aren’t worth the bother.

  4. Good points. I think you should consider adding another big one though:

    5. Women will believe that their future husbands won’t find out about their non-virginity or that, if they do, it will be too late for them to back out. Provided the social circle of guys she has hooked up with does not overlap too much with that of the potential husband, there’s a good chance he won’t find out before the wedding. Even if people close to the man know about her past hook-ups, they may not think it noteworthy to mention, or may assume he already knows (and hence must be “cool” with it.) If the man dons a flame-retardant suit and asks her directly about her virginity in the lead-up to engagement, she can either lie, or just feign outrage (“you would only ask me that if you don’t trust me!”) and storm out. You may think he’ll find out on the wedding night, but hymenoplasties are not that expensive. And for loose women on a tight budget, artificial hymens (which burst and release red dye during intercourse) can be purchased for a few dollars on eBay (for maximum effect, just pretend to be too shy to do anything at all with the lights on). Even if he does find out she’s not a virgin on the wedding night, chances are he’s not going to back out of the marriage.

  5. Michael Kozaki

    The hook-up culture would not end even if all men refused to marry non-virgin women.

    It’s difficult for people to understand that the “hook-up culture” is a very logical solution to a low-fertility society. It’s here to stay until this generation goes belly up. Not worth discussing.

    There used to be very good economic and social reasons to restrict female sexuality. Today, not so. Abortion, birth control, mass prisons, women working, and welfare take care of irresponsible women and their spawn fairly inexpensively. Without an economic fillip, nobody really cares. Liberals sure don’t.

    However, since the hookup culture is pretty quickly overrun by those with more successful offspring. I’m always puzzled why people can’t see the writing on the wall; look at Europe right now. Or the American Southwest. The population shifts are so extreme the “hookup culture” is barely worth discussing. Here today, gone tomorrow.

    Voted yesterday spouse carrying a small infant. Old white lady taking ID asked grinning if it was our first (we are mid ’40’s!!!). Reply: no, double-digits. Lady literally gawked. Quote, verbatim: When was your first, age 12?? I sh*t you not. Meanwhile, at least half the kids around us (we voted at a high school) were minorities; it was 100% white 50 years ago (when this lady was in HS). No, the hookup culture won’t last. God knows what he’s doing.

  6. If the only consequence for women of a slutty past is a lack of marriage prospects then this of itself will not change much. The reasons are……
    a) There is no shame or stigma for women slutting around. By itself, men refusing to marry non-virgins is more of a choice for men than a punishment for women. Women no longer need to marry for financial security or family reasons. This leads me to my next point.
    b) There is no shame or financial penalty for being a single mom. Most women (at least mentally healthy ones) want to be mothers. In years past, the stigma of being a single mom strongly motivated women to get married before having children. This is no longer the case with single moms being largely (if even if not justifiably) accepted by society. Not only that, but modern single moms are supported by the state and baby daddies by law.
    c) Women tend to ignore the majority of men they don’t find attractive. When a woman complains, “Where have all the good men gone?”, what she is really saying is why are there so few men I am actually attracted to. For most women, to marry less than their ideal of a man is a fate worse than death. Most women would rather be single for life than settle for a less-than-ideal man. Thus being the case, large numbers of betas refusing to marry sluts is not really an issue in the eyes of most women.
    d) Related to the second point, women do not need to marry to have a man fund their lifestyles. Modern women have replaced husbands with daddy-government. In my parents youth, a single women had little access to men’s collective wealth. Modern women have great access to men’s collective wealth via social welfare and general government spending. Keeping in mind that the vast majority of tax is paid both directly and indirectly by men, government expenditure gives single women access to men’s wealth without her having to marry. Thus taking away yet another penalty for a woman slutting around.
    e) Thus point was mentioned by other commenter. Modern women would rather share a man they perceive as alpha with many other women than have a beta exclusively to themselves. We have seen an increase in the harem phenomenon since the advent of feminism that has given rise to a few men having access to large numbers of women whilst most men either have to marry down or most likely, miss out all together.
    f) Now that women have gained the freedom to do as they please sexually, they will not ever want to give it up. Even if every man in the world decided to reject non-virgins for marriage, women would rather attempt to shame men than correct than make themselves more marriageable. There is probably a degree of female solipsism in this but that is not likely to change in the future either.

  7. Novaseeker

    I think your list is generally correct, Donal. I also agree with KMan’s point 5 in that many/most women are pretty certain that they can fool the guy they want to marry, provided that they don’t have scars from the carousel days that are too obvious to hide (in which case, they tend to be less interested in marrying anyway). Your average carousel girl doesn’t go all “Girls Gone Wild” with it, but has a mix of sexual BF relationships, a few ONS type things in between, maybe a vacation or office fling or two — which is all bog standard average and won’t generally mark her as being any different from the average girl in this era. So she’s pretty sure that even if a guy was insistent about her sexual history, she could hide it pretty effectively from him, and even deceive him at the hymen level as KMan suggests as well (by which point it’s probably too late in most cases anyway).

    I’d add another point, which is that many women, if faced with this kind of ultimatum, would simply marry men outside the Church. They are doing this now already, based simply on finding “Churchy” guys kind of unmasculine and unattractive. If these guys are also insisting on pristine sexual histories, even more women will simply opt out. Not out of the Church as a whole, mind you (at least not all of them), but they will date and marry outside the Church, where they can find men who are hotter than the guys at Church and who don’t care as much about their sexual pasts. In order for a boycott to work, there has to be a lack of options, and that isn’t the case for women in Church today, as we can see from the already large numbers of them who actively (and, in more than a few cases, exclusively) date outside the Church already.

    In 2016, hot is everything. It’s 100% of everything, and it explains pretty much all behavior in this area. Everything else is gravy, but people will do anything they can to find the hot.

  8. Sean

    @ Nova

    “Finding “Churchy” guys unattractive..”

    Why wouldn’t they? Pastors have been saying we’re just porn addicts, boys, video game idolators, and generally unfit to marry their Daughters of the King. No way they’ll stoop to marry such lesser men.

  9. Michael Kozaki

    Nova, So she’s pretty sure that even if a guy was insistent about her sexual history, she could hide it pretty effectively from him

    Skeptical. Men are dumb, but not utterly clueless. Among my set, most women couldn’t pull it off. People talk. A “don’t ask don’t tell” about prior sex yes that happens, but direct lying or rutting? Rare in my crowd.

    What is true: most religious women demand (and get) relationships pre-sex if they are worth anything looks-wise. Perhaps this is a Catholic guilt thing due to confession? Other than the sluts (and everyone knows WTA) the “women rut” thing for the religious set is classic male projection. The last proposal I saw? He left the ring at Eucharistic adoration for her to find. All the other men dumb enough to marry know what they are getting (the marriage rate decline tells this tale).

    …and even deceive him at the hymen level

    We now enter the Twilight Zone. Never happen above room-temp IQ.

    Not out of the Church as a whole

    Zero idea what this means. Surely we are past the fantasy that there is some sort of “church” out there with a capital C that people agrees on its meaning (even on a RC blog). Look, Santa Clause isn’t real. It’s every man for himself. Deal.

  10. 1, 2, and 4 hold weight and ring true. 3? Not so much in as much as it is hardly exclusive to women. It’s not even necessarily more prevalent in women, if I believe my lying eyes. Especially Christian determined to be equally yoked.

  11. Novaseeker

    Zero idea what this means.

    In other words, they won’t leave the Church, they will just date outside of it.

  12. Women have long dated outside the church. They did it by dropping out for a while (“I’m really busy right now”) before hunky mcalpha dumped them, when they returned.

    They get some prayer for being a ‘victim’, bemoan the unattractiveness of church guys and start the cycle again.

  13. Michael Kozaki

    Nova, she can’t leave “the Church as a whole” since it’s undefined (for max freedom, natch). So she merely reframes her personal “Church as a whole” to include Jim Bob. It’s a rational approach using your frame.

  14. Novaseeker

    Michael,

    I wasn’t talking about switching churches. The “as a whole” related to the end of the previous sentence” “opt out”. I was saying she won’t opt out of the Church as a whole, in other words leave the Church (by which I meant the church she attends), but simply date outside of it. Probably could have been phrased better, looking back at what I wrote, but I wasn’t talking about church switching. She doesn’t need to switch churches, and most don’t — they just date outside the Church. Most churches will still marry them anyway, so why not, when the Church boys are so icky?

  15. “artificial hymens (which burst and release red dye during intercourse) can be purchased for a few dollars on eBay (for maximum effect, just pretend to be too shy to do anything at all with the lights on).”

    What the…..

    [DG: You weren’t the only one with that reaction. All the same, I think it wouldn’t be too terribly hard to figure out that something was up.]

  16. Novaseeker

    What the…..

    Yes, but most wanting to go that route would just get a hymenoplasty. Doctors will gladly do it if the woman comes to them saying that the H is going to be angry or discriminate against her because she isn’t a virgin.

  17. Nova:

    I think you’re correct that hymenoplasty will become a thing as we go forward.

    I was just geeking out about the fake hymen/red dye thing.

  18. Thank you for the comments everyone.

    @ Kman

    Good points. Women might think that deception and dishonesty will work. I will update the post shortly to accommodate that.

    @ Michael

    I agree that the hook-up culture is something that can only exist in the present environment, and contains within itself the seeds of its own destruction.

    @ Nova

    I agree about “missionary dating,” although I should point out my post is really more encompassing than just Christian men. It would apply even if all men refused to marry non-virgins.

    @ Elspeth

    1, 2, and 4 hold weight and ring true. 3? Not so much in as much as it is hardly exclusive to women. It’s not even necessarily more prevalent in women, if I believe my lying eyes. Especially Christian determined to be equally yoked.

    I never said it was a female only behavior. It is a human behavior. It is just that in the case of women that behavior will undermine any effort to end the hook-up culture via a “marry only virgins” policy.

  19. Women will believe that their future husbands won’t find out about their non-virginity or that, if they do, it will be too late for them to back out. …
    Even if he does find out she’s not a virgin on the wedding night, chances are he’s not going to back out of the marriage.

    For the record, I most certainly would back out. In fact, I dare say I would set a record for the fastest filing of an annulment. I will take having people have to say about it any day of the week over being married to a deceitful harlot.

  20. Novaseeker

    Looks like Pope Francis is aiming at loosening treatment of divorced Catholics who are remarried outside the Church. I can’t see how that makes much sense, given the existing praxis on annulments. It will be interesting to see if this message leads to any concrete changes.

  21. Michael Kozaki

    Nova, Looks like Pope Francis is aiming at loosening treatment of divorced Catholics who are remarried outside the Church.

    If so, he’s failed to do so. Read the fine print:

    Lawler, Did the Pope say that divorced/remarried Catholics could receive Communion? Buried in a footnote is the suggestion that the pastoral help offered to these couples “can include the help of the sacraments.” Yet Cardinal Christoph Schönborn of Vienna, who had been sympathetic toward the Kasper proposal, said that it was “very clear” that the Pope was speaking about the Sacrament of Reconciliation, not the reception of the Eucharist, in that much-dismissed footnote.

    Pope Francis has not overthrown the traditional teachings of the Church, as many either hoped or feared. Instead he has sought to carve out ample room for a flexible pastoral interpretation of those teachings, encouraging pastors to help couples apply general moral principles to their specific circumstances.

    Catholics will always do whatever they want (look at birth control, for example). It’s a voluntary religion. But correct doctrine and the sacraments is what the Church offers, so Christians who do wish to follow Jesus can do so in confidence. The pope did nothing to damage proper doctrine here (nor could he).

  22. Novaseeker

    Do you think the priests will interpret it that way? I mean, the sacrament of reconciliation is, of course, *always* available to people who have committed sin, so why make a big deal of that, if that is the core sacramental component of the pastoral approach he is advocating? I mean that pastoral approach already exists.

    I dunno, but it seems vintage Francis to me. Say something that you know will be broadly misinterpreted the way you want it to be, and then formally reserve proper doctrine in the backup/footnote/handler explanation to cover his back formally. Seems to be his MO, honestly.

  23. Pingback: Reference Posts | Donal Graeme

  24. feeriker

    For the record, I most certainly would back out. In fact, I dare say I would set a record for the fastest filing of an annulment. I will take having people have to say about it any day of the week over being married to a deceitful harlot.

    God bless you for that, Donal, but I’d say be prepared to face wall of resistance and ridicule, even from your fellow Catholics. As a casual observer from the outside, it appears that the church is currently issuing annulments for just about any and every reason other than legitimate ones. I surely do hope I’m mistaken.

  25. Michael Kozaki

    Nova, Do you think the priests will interpret it that way?

    I’ve been told to my face things by pastors so heretical my jaw literally hung open. They don’t need Francis for that!

    I mean, the sacrament of reconciliation is, of course, *always* available to people who have committed sin, so why make a big deal

    I didn’t see a “big deal” here. Read the entire document. It says far, far more than your soundbite and is quite sound in doctrine. Look, your interpretation has already been condemned by a Cardinal on the liberal side of the debate. But I’m sure liberals (including bishops) of ill will will do anything, they’ve been doing it for years on HV and marriage. I went to a church as a kid where the pastor flat-out said the remarried could come to Communion. But the Church kept on keeping on, the doctrine is clear, and anyone can read it for themselves (I just laughed at the pastor, he was a heretic). In the end, it’s each person’s soul.

    I dunno, but it seems vintage Francis to me. Say something that you know will be broadly misinterpreted the way you want it to be, and then formally reserve proper doctrine…Seems to be his MO, honestly.

    Let’s assume you are right: the pope is a sneaky liar trying to change doctrine “on the ground” without actually changing it. If so, Francis hates RC doctrine here but is too chicken to change it. That sort of warms my heart, knowing Jesus is watching over his Church with a morally corrupt pope. Wouldn’t be the first time, that.

    Regarding Francis being a sneaky coward, I don’t know enough to pass judgement. I can say I haven’t read a thing even remotely heretical from him on marriage or birth control in this document (or elsewhere) while I have heard a LOT heretical stuff from other RC pastors, even a few RC bishops. And of course non RC churches went heretical on both marriage and birth control years ago, long before I was born, making Francis a beacon of doctrinal light. He does seem fairly incompetent, but perhaps (as you think) he’s actually crafty and shrewd, so who knows what he’s got up his sleeve? Not my problem.

  26. Novaseeker

    As a casual observer from the outside, it appears that the church is currently issuing annulments for just about any and every reason other than legitimate ones. I surely do hope I’m mistaken.

    Well, actually many of the annulments that are granted, at least in the US, are granted on the basis of one or both parties not having a proper understanding of what Catholic marriage is, and what it requires, at the time that the marriage was entered into, meaning that they did not consent to enter a Catholic marriage. So, for example, one or both thinks that they can “get out of the marriage” if thinks don’t work out, which isn’t what Catholic doctrine teaches about marriage. Based on this standard, it isn’t outlandish to think that there are many Catholic marriages in the US that could be annulled, given where many Catholics are on various points of Catholic doctrine in terms of understanding and/or assent. So it may very well be the case that the annulments that are being granted are legitimate, based on this kind of understanding of, and approach to, the sacrament.

  27. jack

    Most men, even those in the manosphere are unwilling to hold their daughters accountable for sexual morality.

    Until that changes, nothing else will. This also includes the issue that most men would be p-whipped into silence by their wives, who would be on the full false grace/enabling program for a slutty daughter.

    Since eggs are more valuable than sperm, raising a slutty daughter is a bigger fail than raising a weak son.

  28. jack

    With regard to the fake hymens complete with ink-discharge, do they come in other colors?

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