Filtering For Non-Compliance *Women Only*

[This is the first of my dual or split posts, one for male commenters and one for female commenters. As noted earlier, this is something of an experiment. Further, I used a less than stellar post to test everything out. This particular post is for the women. The previous one will be for men.]

In my post Good Guy’s Don’t Exist, commenter Maea related stories she had heard first hand from women who had tried online dating. In particular, that if they explained they were “waiting for marriage” men would call them “prudes.” She later clarified her earlier statement with this:

I believe it’s Catholic Match that has a 5-question litmus test. One of the questions pertains to maintaining chastity until marriage. The answers are yes or no. I’ve talked to people IRL who’ve reported difficulty in getting dates when all of their responses are in line with Catholic teaching.

That is, unless they are really, really good looking. But usually their respondent is the same.

My first reaction was to wonder how often this occurs. So for this post I would like to hear from my female commenters who have tried out online dating in the past. What are you experiences with this phenomenon? How frequent was it? How did you react? Any difference between secular or Christian sites? If you have heard from other women about this matter, please feel free to mention what you know in this post.

Additionally, was there any difference in this between online dating and “real-world” dating? Was this more frequent offline, or less?

*Again, this post is for female commenters only. Violating comments will be deleted.*

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28 Comments

Filed under Christianity, Churchianity, Courtship, Marriage, Marriage Market Place, Men, Red Pill, Sexual Strategies, Sin, The Church, Women

28 responses to “Filtering For Non-Compliance *Women Only*

  1. *Note: I originally planned on making the post for women much more of a mirror of the male post. But over time that post developed away from what I was intending, and so they aren’t mirrors of one another. Given this I might try a true mirror post some point in the future. But for now this will do. Additionally, I will try to minimize my comments and interaction with this particular post, outside of necessary moderation.*

  2. Note: I won’t be able to check this post constantly, so if there are any offending comments, ignore them. I will address them in due course.

  3. Feminine But Not Feminist

    I’m currently giving Catholic Match a try, and my experience there has been very different than this (so far). I explain VERY clearly on my profile that I’m absolutely going to remain a virgin until my wedding night, to the point that there is no possiblity of mistaking this when reading my profile. I’ve gotten messages from quite a few men, and only a few have even mentioned it at all. And those that did only briefly said that they “admire” or “appreciate” my commitment to chastity, and didn’t mention it again. Otherwise, not a peep has been said about it to me on CM.

    It’s not because of my looks either. While I know I’m not butt ugly, I’m no hottie either. It would take at least an 8 (if not higher) for a woman to have no trouble with this if looks alone determine it, and I’m somewhere in the 5 – 7 range. So that can’t be it. And before anyone asks me: no, the men who have messaged me aren’t all “low value” desperate men who seem willing to take just anybody just for the sake of having somebody. Some strike me that way, but some seem to be of at least “good value,” and a few of them even strike me as “high value.”

    So, I’m stumped (at the moment) about why Maea’s friends have had that particular trouble on CM when I haven’t.

    This is, however, VERY different than my experiences offline. I have been mocked quite a bit over the years for my decision to not engage in premarital sex, even as far back as middle school (no that wasn’t a typo – I said “middle school”). During middle school, I had turned down two of the boys in my grade that most of the girls wanted, mostly because of the way they behaved when interacting with certain other girls that had somehow already earned themselves a “reputation.” Word eventually got around about me not being willing to “give it up,” which lead to me having a reputation far worse than “prude”… Someone started a nasty rumor in the 8th grade about me being a lesbian (which of course I’m not) because of it. Then as I got into my twenties, I got grief about it from the occasional man who would seek to get some but wouldn’t get any from me, after I would explain why not. Or if the topic somehow came up in conversation with someone (even if nobody was seeking any), I would still get grief about it.

    That’s actually one of the reasons why I like hanging around these parts – it’s refreshing to read that a woman’s chastity is actually appreciated by some. That’s not exactly a message that comes across offline, apart from when I converse with people that I first encountered online. That’s how big of a disparity there is in online vs offline, in my experience.

  4. Feminine But Not Feminist

    When I said “So that can’t be it” I meant just in my case specifically, not necessarily in general. Just wanted to clarify that.

  5. Maea

    These women were from a broad age range, yet all were serious Christians. I’ve talked to Catholics who’ve used Catholicmatch, Christians who’ve used eharmony, and Christians who’ve used match.com (which yields the worst results for them, no surprise).

    @FBNF, it says something about the men who say they admire chastity, yet do not actively pursue a woman possessing these trait. Talk is cheap.

    I have to indulge in a bit of “feminine behavior” here and commiserate on your experience of being labeled a lesbian. There was a short time were others in my life thought the same because I wasn’t panting for sex. I decided to wait until marriage from an early age where I put marriage, sex, and babies in the same box. I was not Catholic, either. It was the natural order of things to me.

    But the fact is, when it comes to online dating YMMV. There’s already a bit of self-selection going on with online dating, and IMO it’s amplified more compared to the results IRL. There’s self-selection IRL, but the online space is a more limiting area where the interactions in person are varied.

  6. My 21-year-old was accused of being a lesbian as well. It’s one of those things you think only happens to men who won’t drop their standards, but it is universal:

    “You’ve never had sex? You won’t French kiss? What are you…gay or something?”

  7. Feminine But Not Feminist

    There was a short time were others in my life thought the same because I wasn’t panting for sex.

    My 21-year-old was accused of being a lesbian as well. It’s one of those things you think only happens to men who won’t drop their standards, but it is universal:

    “You’ve never had sex? You won’t French kiss? What are you…gay or something?”

    Wow, I didn’t realize that happened to others too. In a way I’m glad it’s not just me, but at the same time I’m bummed that it happened to other people besides me. :-/

  8. Maea

    When you’re in the 18-22 year old age group, it gets depressing at times. But people wise up once they realize legal drinking age isn’t all that, and especially when they realize how hardened others get pushing age 25. This goes for men and women.

  9. Feminine But Not Feminist

    @ Maea

    I meant to respond to more of what you said to me, so here it is.

    it says something about the men who say they admire chastity, yet do not actively pursue a woman possessing these trait. Talk is cheap.

    Yeah, that’s true. A lot of men around here talk like they would kill to find a chaste woman to marry, and make a big deal about how rare we are, then don’t even bother with us at all when we make ourselves known. Not all, of course. But many. Most probably don’t bother with me because I’m not under 25 years old (which apparently makes me not fit to marry, according to most). But I’m almost surprised that I’ve never, not even once, seen anyone comment with an interest in, say, Elspeth’s 21 year old chaste daughter who wants to be married with babies yesterday. Or LovelyLeblanc7, who is also chaste and around that same age, give or take a year. Go figure.

    @ Donal

    For the purpose of this discussion, does it count as “online dating” if it’s from around here, as opposed to an official dating site? If not, then the latter part of my previous paragraph doesn’t apply and would merit being deleted.

    @ Maea (again)

    I have to indulge in a bit of “feminine behavior” here and commiserate on your experience of being labeled a lesbian.

    Thank you. 🙂 Same goes for you, for Elspeth’s daughter, and anyone else reading this that has had to deal with the same.

    [DG: This is close enough to what online dating normally means to count. Since I was asking about “real life” dating as well, it certainly would apply if it didn’t fit in the on-line box. As for the ladies you’ve mentioned, keep in mind that interested party’s might have used e-mail contacts rather than make public inquiries.]

  10. Feminine But Not Feminist

    If not, then the latter part of my previous paragraph doesn’t apply and would merit being deleted.

    Correction: the whole paragraph wouldn’t apply under those circumstances, rather than the latter part of it.

  11. I’ve never done online dating and right now I am living in Japan (a very secular/athiest country) so, saving yourself until marriage is practically unheard of here. It is a concept they can’t grasp.
    I was called a lesbian once in high school until I realized the guy that who called me a lesbian actually like me and was trying to shame me. It didn’t stop guys from asking me out to prom or homecoming either. I didn’t date around in high school so I was called a lesbian but I think everybody knew I wasn’t.
    Now since I am in college I do not talk about my relationship status or my beliefs on chasity. It doesn’t concern them and they wouldn’t understand anyways.
    That being said, the other day a friend of mine (a French girl) told me that she has “ONLY been with 4 guys.” 4 guys to me is a lot but then I remember that this is the culture we live in…most people have multiple patterns before they are married and so the idea of waiting until marriage just seems bizzare to them.

  12. @FBNF: Yes, I believe it to be true as well. Most men don’t care about chasity or waiting until marriage. They don’t care about virginity. The last time I said that some guy on DG site tried to correct, but it is true nonetheless.
    That is why if a woman makes the choice to remain chaste until marriage. It really has to be HER decision. She can’t do it because she thinks a man will value it or men will want to marry her. She has believe in chasity because she loves God and knows herself. She has to know what she wants in life.
    For me, I just want to be with one man who is my husband. I don’t have any curiosity to be with multiple men…the desire just isn’t there.
    The woman who decides to remain chaste until marriage really has to understand and stand by her convictions.

  13. Maea

    A lot of men around here talk like they would kill to find a chaste woman to marry, and make a big deal about how rare we are, then don’t even bother with us at all when we make ourselves known. Not all, of course. But many. Most probably don’t bother with me because I’m not under 25 years old (which apparently makes me not fit to marry, according to most).

    I find this to be the biggest, most glaring irony of it all. A chaste, devout Christian woman who despises feminism (you) is a chaste, devout, Christian woman who despises feminism. She is not sullied by feminism, nor is she somehow past her expiration date. She does not have some strange, hidden agenda to “go feral” on a man. It’s just that sometimes life doesn’t work out neatly in a well-planned timeline for everyone. I would know something about that.

    From what I’ve gleaned FBNF, you and I are probably similar in a lot of ways. I’ve come to the conclusion a lot of men aren’t interested in women like us, but that’s okay. To marry, all you have to do is meet ONE man who wants to marry.

  14. No, ladies. These men are honest in their assessment of what they want. I believe them completely that they -themselves- place a premium on chastity.

    Where I think they are off base is their oft-stated and seemingly firm belief that there are large numbers of Christian men who hold the stance that they do, when in reality the vast majority of Christian men so not place a high premium on chastity, as evidenced by the fact that most of them (the vast majority) marry a woman they have already been sleeping with.

    This indicates that they are not particularly interested in a woman who isn’t wiling to submit to their immediate desire for physical intimacy. And so long as she hasn’t been too loose, they’re willing to sacrifice the purity standard for the sake of those desires. This is reality. I encountered it when I was single and being pursued by devout young men, and it’s just as pronounced (if not more so) today as it was then if what my daughters have encountered is any indication.

    And so they (and you ladies) languish waiting for your Unicorn prince to arrive. He will, if it God’s will for you because God is faithful. However, principle over pragmatism means that it will take a little longer than you’d like.

  15. Maea

    @ Elspeth:

    Where I think they are off base is their oft-stated and seemingly firm belief that there are large numbers of Christian men who hold the stance that they do, when in reality the vast majority of Christian men so not place a high premium on chastity, as evidenced by the fact that most of them (the vast majority) marry a woman they have already been sleeping with.

    That is also my issue. It’s just like insisting the churches are filled with hordes of eligible devout singles who believe the Bible is truth, and asking how can there possibly be singles over 25?

    I don’t think lovely or FBNF are waiting for unicorns. Any devout Christian will know everyone has a level of tarnish, BUT with repentance people can change their ways and be forgiven. Are most Christians willing to do that?

    However, I empathize with them as a Christian who was told my expectations were too high because of chastity. In the dating/singles scene, chastity tends to be the ultimate litmus test, well ahead of active church attendance, believing in fundamental Christian theology, etc. Another strike against chaste women is age, as FBNF noted. It is much easier for a man to marry at an older age than a woman, though I don’t agree with the idea of a chaste 30-year old being unmarriageable.

  16. I don’t think lovely or FBNF are waiting for unicorns.

    That was tongue-in-cheek Maea. I don’t really believe such men are unicorns. We are fervently praying for such men for our own girls. It was partially sarcastic, but you misunderstood my meaning. I’ll leave it at that.

  17. Feminine But Not Feminist

    So, I’m stumped (at the moment) about why Maea’s friends have had that particular trouble on CM when I haven’t.

    Having thought this over some, I think I might’ve figured it out… On my CM profile, I didn’t just stop after making it clear that I will be keeping my virginity until marriage: I went on to also make it just as clear that I will be very gung-ho about not being prudish during marriage. I wonder if maybe when a woman flat-out refuses before marriage, if maybe most men assume that she will also regularly refuse during marriage also. But by making a point to make it clear that I won’t be doing that, maybe that put those fears to rest, thus not flying a “red flag,” making my “no sex before marriage” stance a non-issue to some men that otherwise would’ve given me a hard time about it, the way Maea’s friends have gotten on CM, and the way I’ve gotten offline (when I don’t always make that point clear). If so, then that would actually explain why I’ve gotten messages from men who say they don’t accept the Church’s teaching on premarital sex (which is one of the “7 questions” that you have to answer when making your profile), and who answer my “interview question” about their own chastity “wrong” even though I specifically state that I’m looking for a chaste man – this has happened quite a few times and has baffled me, because I figure, why bother messaging me? I wonder if Maea’s friends made the same point in their profiles, if it would’ve made a difference in their experiences?

  18. Feminine But Not Feminist

    @ Donal

    As for the ladies you’ve mentioned, keep in mind that interested party’s might have used e-mail contacts rather than make public inquiries.

    That’s true. I’ve gotten a few email inquiries myself. The point I was trying to make is that there are a LOT more men around saying that they want someone like us than there are men who actually make any sort of attempt to make it happen. I’ll elaborate more about this in response to others later in this same comment.

    @ LovelyLeBlanc

    @FBNF: Yes, I believe it to be true as well. Most men don’t care about chasity or waiting until marriage. They don’t care about virginity. The last time I said that some guy on DG site tried to correct, but it is true nonetheless.

    I think you’re halfway right here, but one thing might be off: A lot of men seem to care about a woman’s virginity, but not her decision to be chaste and wait until marriage. The only men who really care about chastity are the ones who are also insisting on waiting until marriage themselves (and such men are very few and far between). But a lot more men want a woman to arrive to them while she is still a virgin, but who will then be willing and eager to give up that virginity to them fairly quickly, and before any marriage takes place (meaning she wasn’t ever actually chaste to begin with, despite her virginity). As for the rest of your comment: a very big “ditto!” 🙂

    (To finish elaborating on my comment to Donal): This is what I was getting at with my earlier comment about how a lot of men around here say they want someone like us, but don’t bother with women like us. Those who aren’t chaste themselves (aka, most of them, but not all) don’t want a chaste woman, even though they want to deflower a virgin. I was calling out what has been so obvious to me since I started commenting around here two years ago, but that most of the men just don’t get, as evidenced when they repeatedly say that a chaste woman who wants to be married should have no trouble with marrying while under 25 years old.

    @ Elspeth

    No, ladies. These men are honest in their assessment of what they want. I believe them completely that they -themselves- place a premium on chastity.

    I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise; I also believe that some of them truly want (and insist on) chastity in a woman that they would marry. I just don’t believe it’s a large number of men who are truly looking for chastity, as you said.

    @ Maea

    Yeah, it does seem like you and I have much in common, based on your comments here. It’s nice to come across another person who understands. 🙂

  19. ChildofRa

    I tried online dating and the majority of response I recieve from males were sexual in nature. So I delete my account and never tried again.

  20. My husband and I met on CatholicMatch.com on the first week it was up — we were among the first five people involved. I was very bemused to see all these horror stories. I was raised in the SSPX, though, and was homeschooled K-12, with teachers’ college following, so my experience was nothing like all of yours. My husband went to Catholic school throughout, and has a number of hair-raisers he could tell, none of which I can relate to since I grew up so sheltered.

    Prior to Catholic Match, I was involved in Single Catholics Online, and met several “interesting” men, but absolutely none of them were unchaste or any but exemplary in virtue. I did date a couple of men locally, but I am ashamed that I did now, because I could not have married them as they were LDS and I made it pretty clear that I wouldn’t marry a non-Catholic. (I worked for an LDS school administrator and she was always trying to set me up, invite me to stuff, etc., and I didn’t really have any friends, so I walked into that trap….I got involved in the Catholic online groups pretty soon, so I got away from that.)

    I have to say I never did encounter any of the thing you are all finding, but I am forty years old, so maybe that has something to do with it. Old lady here. My husband was actually considering the priesthood and planned to discern that vocation when his mother was diagnosed with cancer, putting all his plans on hold. He was taking care of her when he decided to try out StRaphael.net (now called CatholicMatch.com) and see if the obstacle to the priesthood was God’s Will or not….and then we met.

  21. Maea

    @ STMA:

    Oh, LDS men (practicing, as most are) are hardly unchaste. Every single LDS man has always been a gentlemen. LDS support younger marriage much more than most Christians, for one. It’s impressive actually, and it makes me wonder if there’s something different in their culture teaching men that we Catholics should learn from.

    @FBNB:

    I am thinking that the explanation on your chastity– and then not being a prude after marriage– may come across too strong for most. One thing I’ve learned with communicating with men or trying to get their attention is to be more succinct, yet clear. I’d suggest brevity with that explanation, and include the word chastity.

  22. It’s impressive actually, and it makes me wonder if there’s something different in their culture teaching men that we Catholics should learn from.

    Funny you should say that Maea, as one of the teens I’m teaching catechism to right now made a comment recently about how the LDS do some things better than Catholics.

    Yes, their culture is different. At least, it was. That is changing as they assimilate more into the general culture. But for the most part LDS culture is healthier when it comes to marriage and sexual immorality. Of course, that used to be the case for Catholics… until we decided to assimilate much like the LDS are doing now. Lesson to be learned there.

  23. Maea:
    Understandable you should think that way, but I would steer clear of LDS if I were you. I live in a heavily LDS area. Do your own investigating if you will, but I have known LDS women and LDS men and underneath the “perfect” lies some very, very dark stuff.
    I am leery of anything or anybody who looks “too perfect” — there is usually something very, very dark under the “perfect” veneer. I can say this with a modicum of authority because I grew up in the “perfect” homeschooling Catholic family. In forty years of life I have seen more and more “perfect” houses of cards fall apart to the point that I am pretty cynical. There were times I tried to just concentrate on the good before I finally had to admit I was only deluding myself (and I don’t delude myself anymore, it’s not worth it). Just my two cents, take it or leave it…..but I hope you won’t mind if I strongly recommend you take it.

  24. Maea

    I’m married, and I was making an observation based on the LDS people I’ve met.

  25. I dipped my toe into online dating a few months ago, and can’t actually remember what I put on my profile about virginity (I am one).
    I agree with Maea and FBNF though, that most men don’t really value chastity as much as they say they do. And tbh, I wouldn’t rule out a guy either if he had repented.

    It’s worth noting also that these profile questions are not very nuanced. Bet there wouldn’t be a check box for “don’t care about virginity as long as they have repented”.

    BTW I ran away screaming (figuratively) from online dating after getting a sexually themed message. I may retry if I get desperate – I’m exactly like Elspeth’s daughter – “21 and wants married with babies yesterday”!

  26. As it happens our girls just attended an LDS wedding of a high school acquaintance of theirs (she’s just turned 21). There was a lot of talk amongst the few invited kids from their high school class about the nature of how their union came to be. Whether the young woman seemed “in love” or not, etc.

    Theological issues notwithstanding, it really came down to the fact that (besides my girls who defended the entire process), post modern American culture doesn’t really know what to do with propriety, with marriage based on more than sexual passion, with the young woman who puts aside the narrative, embraces her tradition, and marries in line with her parents’ wishes.

    Don’t know if I agree with your assessment of their process being “very dark” beneath the surface, but where there is the smoke of glaring theological error, there may be fire. Still, they seem to be getting their young people married and settled at appropriate ages and without letting them wallow in the cesspool of the culture first. I know quite a few Catholic homeschooling families, and not even THEY manage to do that.

  27. Still, they seem to be getting their young people married and settled at appropriate ages and without letting them wallow in the cesspool of the culture first. I know quite a few Catholic homeschooling families, and not even THEY manage to do that.

    From those I have met, most rely on very traditional Catholic colleges to do that for them. They don’t really engage in any matchmaking on their own. Based on my experiences, this works fairly well for their daughters… not so well for the sons.

    In their defense, most know so few other devout traditional Catholics they don’t have anyone to network with regarding kids and marriage.

  28. In their defense, most know so few other devout traditional Catholics they don’t have anyone to network with regarding kids and marriage.

    Well that was my point about LDS. They make a point of it- creating the networks I mean.

    I actually came back to make a correction. Our girls attended the reception, not the wedding. As we are not LDS, they were not allowed to attend the actual wedding.

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