We Have Seen The Enemy…

and he is us.

Dalrock’s most recent post, “the sound of a rebellious woman,” features several good conversations in the comments. One of them concerned authority, while another focused on who was responsible for the lack of admonishments directed towards women in the western church. Cane Caldo entered both, leaving several excellent comments, a few of which bear  repeating here. The first:

This is the link you are supposed to create, based upon his suggestion. If you ask those husbands who quip and wink, they’ll tell you that they are just being gentle, humble, and sage. If you’ve never done it, I suggest you tell a group of AmXian husbands that their wives are not quiet or gentle. They will rage. (More on that in a second.)

The fear here–and Mark would know this–is that the husbands will feel that their wives have been impugned. Again: Look at what brought down Mark Driscoll. He trounced hundreds of husbands, and his church grew and grew while churches around Mars Hill dried up; because AmXians wives AND husbands love it. But when a critical mass of women were offended (which in comparison was a very small number) Mark had to go. The husbands’ anger galvanized around Mark’s mistreatment of women. Women didn’t rise up and kick Mark out. Men did.

the second:

Churchians are Blue Pill, and pedestalize women. If you take away their pedestal, the worshippers get angrier than the goddesses. Pastors, generally, aren’t up on pedestals. Most men think pastors are either lame, or mountain-top yogis who can’t relate to mortals; often both.

and the third:

Authority and power are not the same thing. For example, the term “rebellion” betrays the fact that one doesn’t have authority. (“For no one ever hated himself…”) So the term “female rebellion” unavoidably implies that they do not have authority. Since we are still in the age of female rebellion, then men still have the authority; even if they wield incredible power. That power of female rebellion exists only in the hands of those men who are willing to uphold it, and, yes, the state does uphold power for women.

Don’t misunderstand me! I do NOT mean to say that all men hold authority. I meant that when it is held, whoever holds it are men, and they are never women.

In fact, it is very similar to Mark Driscoll. My description of his transfer of authority from the husbands of the congregation to his wife (and therefore himself) is really analogous to how authority in America has transferred from men to women through women’s suffrage. Ultimately, women still aren’t in power, but the men in power have more authority than ever.

Both comments lead me to this-

It is men, and not women, who are the main obstacle to be overcome. Cane makes a lot of points, but ultimately one of the major ones is that you cannot “fix” American Christianity until you deal with men who pedestalize women. Female rebellion is only possible because men make it possible. I say “make” on purpose. It isn’t simply that it is allowed, but that it is enabled. If you were to actually speak up against female rebellion in church, then the White Knights there would take up arms against you.

It is important to note that while many men are afraid of their wives, that doesn’t necessarily make them a full White Knight. A White Knight goes beyond acting in perceived self interest, and actually tries to promote “his own” (actually another) agenda. Most men are relatively passive here. The problem is that the WKs tend to be quite aggressive, and know how to rope other men into helping them.

All of which means that any effort to bring about reform and eliminate “Churchianity” will require the neutralization of White Knights in leadership position. The good news is that going after them should actually be easier than trying to assail female rebellion right now. White Knights are less apt at defending themselves than women, and are less likely to get support from other men in their defense. At least, that is my read on the matter. If anyone disagrees feel free to explain why in the comments.

On the same vein, this topic got me thinking about the various types or groups of men who help perpetuate the system. I am going to use this post to try and categorize them, if only to sate my own abnormal INTJ curiosity. Here is what I have so far:

  • The Pedestalizer- the classic White Knight. These guys think women are living goddesses who can do no wrong, and will defend them to the last man and child.
  • The Powermonger- a variant White Knight. These guys defend women, but do so because they see it as a tool for giving themselves greater power. They don’t pedestalize women, and often look down on them, but are careful not to show it.
  • The Player- a cad or PUA. Someone who has found a way to benefit (to varying degrees) from female rebellion, primarily by easier sexual access to women. Usually has a good understanding of female nature. Some merely seek to benefit from the system, while others actually find ways to preserve it.
  • The AFC- Average Frustrated Chump. These guys are enablers to enablers- while often not full on White Knights, they will support White Knights when the call is sounded- with reasons ranging from fear to guilt.

Any other categories that I missed?

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11 Comments

Filed under Beta, Blue Pill, Christianity, Churchianity, Men, Moral Agency, Red Pill, The Church

11 responses to “We Have Seen The Enemy…

  1. Taylor

    Blue Pill Married – Responds to general criticism of women’s responsibility and roles in modern Christian culture as if it was personally directed against their own wife. Frequently escalates to show himself above other men (easily makes leap to endorsement of domestic violence) [[You covered this one yourself]]

    Twisted Enlightened Christian – Wholesale believes the Bible endorses the current perversion of gender roles. Frequently brings up “mutual submission” and “love your wife as Christ loves the church” as the only two verses on the matter. Believes a wife will want to submit to her husband’s leadership every time if he’s holy enough and feeling loved enough. Big enabler of headship-denying pastors.

    Lower MGTOW – Knows something is wrong with modern dating, and has given up, but now lives only to utter snide remarks and impugn women. Different from men who have dated dozens of women before tiring of the search for a godly mother-material submitted spouse. Easy fodder for mis-characterization of the Christian male backlash movement because wounded and hurt is written all over, not tired but resigned.

  2. AFC = Average Pedestalizer

    [DG: Possibly. It is a question, though, whether they believe it or are just merely following along.]

  3. Red Pill Married. Too few to be a power base, but may be effective as activists or gurus.

  4. Nicely written. I was actually a little lost in that thread but you have made it clearer.

    Now that it makes sense, I am in agreement with Caldo. Men (especially in church leadership roles) who white knight are much more of an obstacle.

    When I speak the truth in love to women Mychael and I know, they sometimes get angry. They sometimes get defensive. They have all kinds of reactions. But when their initial emotional reaction wears off, they start contacting Mychael offline and asking her questions–amounting to “OK, I was pissed at Scott for some stuff he said at dinner the other night. But why do you guys seem so happy?” This has typically resulted in husbands being treated better in their homes.

    However, mid-level church leaders who are invested in the narrative are wholly predictable on the matter. The immediately label you a wife-hater, and attempt to categorize you as abusive, or as an endorser of abuse.

  5. mdavid

    DG, Cane[‘s] major [point] is that you cannot “fix” American Christianity until you deal with men who pedestalize women.

    Yep. But he’s wrong. You can’t “fix” American Christianity. Built on sand (rebellion, individualism, self-interpretation) it will die ugly.

    Lacking the obedience of faith, Rom 1:5 men seek freedom. But somebody’s got to lead, so wife is pedestalized for authority without consequences. So it’s never her fault. Nor his. QED.

    Of course, everyone hates the cultural results and howl with Zippy: “Anywhere but here!” But few want the obedience of faith and seek communities that demand it. So WK are merely part of the landscape.

    WK’s vanish as families embrace discipline: Christ to Father, Church to Christ, husband to Church, wife to husband, children to parents.

  6. Maea

    This topic reminds me of how most Christians don’t understand what patriarchy is. In a patriarchy, none of this nonsense is allowed and men in authority have to answer to other men for their actions and lack thereof.

  7. @ Scott

    However, mid-level church leaders who are invested in the narrative are wholly predictable on the matter. The immediately label you a wife-hater, and attempt to categorize you as abusive, or as an endorser of abuse.

    Yeah, pretty much. Some are Pedestalizers, others Powermongers. But in the end, they work together to prevent a solution.

    @ mdavid

    Yep. But he’s wrong. You can’t “fix” American Christianity. Built on sand (rebellion, individualism, self-interpretation) it will die ugly.

    Very true. Any “fix” would be temporary. At least for Protestant denominations. Their lack of a firm foundation would mean that this problem would simply crop up again in the future, and the whole process would repeat itself.

  8. @DG

    Thanks! You got it!

    @mdavid

    Yep. But he’s wrong. You can’t “fix” American Christianity. Built on sand (rebellion, individualism, self-interpretation) it will die ugly.

    This criticism misses the point. To “fix American Christianity” is an idea that DG gleaned from my comments. I have no problem with it as a concept to help organize thoughts (which I think is how DG meant it), but don’t get caught up in criticizing the container of the idea. Not every Protestant is sucked down into the quagmire, and not every Roman Catholic has escaped it. We won’t “fix” Christianity in America per se but we do have a responsibility to present the truth and warn everyone who is our neighbor.

  9. @ Cane Caldo

    I appreciate the heads up that I was on the right track.

  10. @ donalgraeme

    “It is important to note that while many men are afraid of their wives, that doesn’t necessarily make them a full White Knight.”

    Yes! And that has to be considered within the context of the discussion. I’ve observed that many married men who enable their wives’ rebellion do so unenthusiastically; they’re the Russian conscripts who charge not because they believe in the Cause, but because a Soviet commissar is behind them ready to shoot (divorce, etc) if they take one step backwards.

    As Stalin remarked, “In the Soviet army it takes more courage to retreat than to advance.” We have a similar situation in the context of Marriage 2.0.

    The implications of this, is that it will be hard to get many men in the church to stop enabling their wives’ rebellion even if they want to because the laws are stacked in such a way that the wives hold all the cards. Even if white knights are persuaded to lop off their spurs, so to speak, if they won’t enable rebellion out of their own preconditioning, then the threatpoint of the law will keep them in line if they’re married or when they marry.

    We talk about men being the biggest problem toward ending the rebellion but it must be realized why many of those opposing us are doing so; many of them may be aware of what’s going on. They enable rebellion because they believe the only alternative is getting taken to the cleaners in divorce court.

    It also means that Red Pill aware men who enter marriage will still have to contend with this threat that, if not carefully contained, can cause them too to become unwilling enablers.

  11. Exfernal

    @Taylor
    Could you explain how any MGHOw, lower or otherwise, would like to preserve the current order? If he would like it, he wouldn’t distance himself from it.

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