Some Get It

I have written before that Most Christians Just Don’t Get It. This can take two forms which are not mutually exclusive: either they don’t understand how things work, or they cannot be taught (or learn) how things work, often due to their own intransigence. Fortunately, most does not mean all. On occasion I come across some Christians who do seem to understand at least part of what is going on. I had the opportunity to talk with a woman in the last few days who fit that profile.

Some very brief background on her first. Catholic mom with a number of kids, several of them adults. Has both sons and daughters. Traditional Catholic, and has been that way for a long time. Very much in tune with the problems in the Church right now. Husband is easy-going and seems like a cool guy, and doesn’t appear to be a wimp.

We got to discussing problems with the Church at the moment, including how it is shrinking rapidly. Eventually we started to discuss marriage and the problems the church faces there. I explained to her some of my own difficulties in that regard, as well as problems that other men face. Without being direct, I covered a number of different issues that the ‘sphere talks about. I found her to be both a good listener, and very receptive. Based on what she said, I think she was aware of some of the problems beforehand, but had never had the whole situation clearly explained to her before. So it wasn’t something entirely new.

What might have helped her in understanding this was the situation of her oldest son. He was approaching his mid-twenties and hadn’t found anyone to marry yet. It was clear from her face and tone that she was rightfully worried about the situation her son was in. She recognized that it wasn’t simply a matter of her son not having “found the right person yet.” Even before we had talked she understood that there was something dreadfully wrong with the marriage market. Reader mdavid will not be surprised to hear that she had sent her son, and was sending some of her other children, to a very traditional Catholic college in the hopes of helping them to find a spouse. She related to me that she knew of a number of other Catholic parents who did the same with their children. [I know a few of them myself.] In fact, she knew of a few families who had moved out of state to a traditional Catholic community in order to make it easier for their children to marry.

So its clear that some Christian, or at least Catholic, parents understand that the MMP has serious issues. What I have found at the same time is that while they may understand that something is wrong, and even to some degree what is wrong, most don’t fully understand why it is wrong. I have some thoughts there I want to explore, but that can wait for another post.

 

Advertisements

43 Comments

Filed under Christianity, Churchianity, Marriage, Marriage Market Place, Red Pill, Sexual Market Place, The Church

43 responses to “Some Get It

  1. Donal, any experience with the numbers of men/women that go to a ‘traditional’ Catholic School and successfully find marriage? I haven’t heard of any that are successful, and have seen various stages of losing the faith/becoming worldly while there at the school. I thought I’d see what your thoughts are

  2. The Practical Conservative

    They don’t really get it if they are doing that. Where will their children move to even if marriages happen? You have to set something up where you are at some point or set it up once you’ve moved. This rootless cosmopolitanism from supposed traditionalists is itself part of the problem and not any kind of solution.

  3. mdavid

    PC, They don’t really get it…where will their children move to….
    Typically where one of the parents live, or to a job. Universities merely provide selective mating (kids who take their religion seriously from strong families). Like March of the Penguins.

    Chad, I haven’t heard of any that are successful, and have seen various stages of losing the faith while at the school.
    I know double digits personally. Curious to know what schools you refer to.

    Comment: there is a strong flavor of negativity in the Christian manosphere. No good women! No good men! No good mating grounds! News flash: Life is hard. Marriage is harder: St. Paul, it’s better not to marry. Marriage is THE war of this generation, our WWII. We are living through a massive extinction event and those who survive it will be lucky. Or exceptional. So don’t listen to this guy. Anyone to tells you this war is easy is selling something like Humungus above. Rather listen to this guy.

    The problem with the trad universities? Cost (designed to excluded low SES or broken families, IMO). So somebody should start a free Craigslist or Facebook circle for people signing an “Oath of Sacramental Marriage” to aggressively excludes those destroying marriage with “biblical” divorce and “biblical” birth control. This would, IMO, be an international hit; lots of women would sign up. Folk could do vacation meetups. But, as always, men will have to lead. And there is a serious lack of balls out there.

  4. Mdavid
    I don’t know schools themselves, having not attended one nor living by one. Rather, I just know some that have gone off to them (primarily TAC) and haven’t seen any come back married, and have a lot of debt.

    For me, the moving to a traditional community worked. Between the girls in the community, and those in the diocese nearby that wanted to be in the community (but can’t because their families don’t want to move there) your selection is amazing. I had options from 16-30 year olds (the parents pushed the 16 year old, not me). Mdavid is right that its a war; but if you’re ok with being a scouting party for a bit, you can selectively chose who and where you engage.

  5. mdavid

    Rollo, Jack: Francis has not changed doctrine a bit; he’s just stopping charging people so much for the annulment process. It’s about time. There are so many falsehoods in those articles it makes me laugh; can’t believe you guys still read the MSM regarding Church issues and believe it.

    Chad, Thx. TAC is solid. I know at least 3 TAC marriages (20 kids). You are right about the debt, it’s insane, not worth it. But you are the first I’ve heard of moving into a community and it working (you must be serious trad!). I’m stoked to hear it, would like to hear more.

  6. jack

    Oh, I don’t really care that much, since I do not hold the RCC to have any more moral authority than any other Christian denomination.

  7. The difficulty with pushing hypergamy back is that both women and the top 20% of men think hypergamy is great (even the accidental Alphas). Its downside doesn’t affect them until they see their own kids struggle or the husband loses status and gets frivorced.

  8. I don’t think the annulment stuff is a departure from the norm. I do think it signifies ongoing desperation among Church leaders who don’t yet have the will to throw feminism under the bus where it belongs. From Jimmy Akin’s explanation it seems clear that the changes are going to make annulments way way way easier, especially in #7: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/pope-francis-reforms-annulment-process-9-things-to-know-and-share.
    But there’s also the news about the SSPX.

  9. mdavid

    Patrick, From Akin’s explanation…he changes are going to make annulments way way way easier

    Easier to get thru the red tape, yes. ‘Bout time too. But nothing (including #7) changes the criteria of marriage, just the level of proof needed, which was silly, expensive, and wrong. Like having to go to college to wed…

  10. mdavid

    DG, What might have helped her in understanding this was the situation of her oldest son. He was approaching his mid-twenties

    Nobody cares until their own ox is gored. Reap: Sow.

    Chad, …selection is amazing. I had options from 16-30 year olds

    Yep. I smell fear. The air is ripe with it. Mark my words: in a decade or two bachelors willing to husband families will run the table. Supply/demand.

  11. Mdavid, a bishop (i.e. the people he appoints to the job) is going to be able to annul a marriage with no examination of it at all if the people he appoints, on interviewing the petitioner, discover there was a “lack of faith resulting in the simulation of consent to be married.” That’s a catch-all, not merely an expedited process. “Oh don’t worry, even though everything about your marriage of 20 years meets the standards and even though even you thought you were married, now we’re sure your “consent” was only simulated consent. Annulment granted.”

  12. @ Chad

    I don’t know of any personally. But I have heard of some, including some from families I know that went this route. I haven’t really fished in that particular pond to find things out. I do know that it works for some, and doesn’t work for others. More than that I am still trying to learn. I haven’t had your success in integrating myself into a traditional community, which affects my ability to respond.

  13. mdavid

    Patrick, discover there was a “lack of faith resulting in the simulation of consent to be married.” That’s a catch-all

    That’s the way it is now. Those marriages have never been valid.

    Look, I don’t wish to derail this tread, but the couple marries each other in the RCC. The Church just validates. If the criteria are not met, they were never married and receive no grace. If they do meet said criteria and lie later to get an “annulment”, they are still married. The Church then says they are damned for lying (mortal sin) and if they remarry for adultery (mortal sin). All are free to choose hell. It’s a basic human right.

  14. Maea

    I’m interested more in why the problem exists, but also what we can do to start resolving it.

    The idea of moving to a traditional community is appealing, but there’s a potential problem. Where do you draw the line between removing yourself so much from a culture you are in an enclave? Part of the reason why the problems of promiscuity, the feminized Church, and divorce are rampant is because they were accepted by Christians from the larger culture. I think it’s a pipe dream to believe you can truly be removed, but the fact is where are you going to get a job, where are you going to live, and who will the children marry?

  15. Mdavid
    Thanks. And yeah, serious trad. I live by clear creek monastery and spent a year living in the city while visiting the ‘proto-village’ that has sprung up around the monastery. People on both sides saw I was serious – the village started to invite me to village only events (like dances and big feast day pot lucks) and people in the city started joking about when I’d move out there (with renewed interest in wommen from the ‘can’t let the chance get away’ syndrome). It helped I had drafted out a potential house and could sell the dream really well (still waiting for it to stop being a dream).

    As it turned out, I chose a 27 year old that looks like she’s 23 and whose mom looks like an older sister. Smaller family potential, but this girl takes obedience and traditional living seriously and in todays world, a family of five solid kids is better than a brood of ill disciplined brats.

    @ Maea
    Even in remote areas, you’re not removed, trust me. You still have to deal with it all, you just get a grace period in which to instill virtuous living and discipline. More so if you don’t have a tv and are strict on Internet usage, which allow more reaction time for parents to what does come up. But even just the kids that go off to college and come back to the community bring a lot of the world with them.

    As for job, it depends on skill set. If the man has a trade, he does that. If not, he has to be ok with long commutes to the city (I do an hour each way at the moment and spend more on gas than rent, but my rents only 185). Or you have a location independent job. Or a combination between husband and spouse. You live in a house you make or buy, or simply whatever is available. I know a family that lived in a yurt (big, fancy tent) for a year or two on someone elses property. I know another family that moved in on a bus, lived on a bus, and fave a home birth on the bus. They then lived for a couple years with 10 kids in a single wide trailer home, and just got a new double wide to put a custom made addition into it to connect the two.

    And you marry the other crazy people whom you’ve come to love as you live next to them through thick and thin.

    If you’re single, its easier for bachelors to move to such communities than women. But the communities also lose more men to the world, so it balances.

    There are other communities that aren’t as crazy, but they aren’t as remote. From what I’ve seen, there’s serious trade offs to both.

  16. @Chad

    And you marry the other crazy people whom you’ve come to love as you live next to them through thick and thin.

    I dig this comment.

  17. jack

    It is the easiest thing in the world to teach a woman about hypergamy when she is already living humbly before the Lord, and understands human failings.

    When a person is humble before the Lord, they are open to any truths.

    But too many modern women are awash in defensive pride, because our culture has conditioned them for decades now that men=bad, women=good.

  18. mdavid

    Chad, powerful stuff. You prove Chesterton’s: “When the monks come back, marriages come back.” And at Clear Creek, age is less important; 27 yo is damaged most places, but at CC, it’s a healthy sign of maturity.

    Maea, I’m interested more in why the problem exists, and resolving it.
    Why? That’s obvious. Effeminate clergy unwilling to be mean (real men are kicked out of seminary). Resolve it? Make couples repeat: I cannot remarry for any reason, ever, no matter what my spouse does (drug addict, abuse, etc.). If I do, I believe I’m going to hell. Then cover birth control and HV. They gasp, leave, become protestant. Problem solved.

    Maea, but there’s a potential problem…
    Look, life is HARD. Don’t turn into Rollo/Jack, justifying hopelessness by pointing and sneering. Doing something like Chad? Hard, risky, and natch everyone rushes to predict failure. But as sojourners this world death awaits, so why not? Read the endless whines of hedonists (say, Rollo’s comment section) and then read Chad who is not running from difficulty, but towards it. Balls, pure and simple. Men esteem. Women swoon.

  19. Maea

    @mdavid,

    There’s no pointing and sneering (or “enjoy the decline”) from me. Finding a community where people take Catholicism seriously (even a parish) is like finding a needle in a haystack. Then the ones who do take things seriously are very choosy. They’re friendly, but it operates like an exclusive club. Many serious Catholics give up because no one wants a repeat of high school. Or, they don’t have the resources or energy to partake in the things Chad mentioned. What I’m interested in is getting the people who are serious to make baby steps.

    An anecdote– a traditional parish I visited some time ago had very good reviews of it posted online. While reading, I did come across one review which was telling of the current state of things. The reviewer mentioned it was great traditional parishes exist, but there’s a problem. What ends up happening is all the traditional Catholics leave to swarm these parishes, making them “safe houses,” while the other parishes languish under liberalism. There’s a reason why the review resonated with me. I don’t particularly believe in joining the world, as much as I believe in changing it.

    They gasp, leave, become protestant. Problem solved.

    Many Catholics are adamant about the Church being theirs— after all, why should they change? The Church should be changing for them (so I’ve heard). This kind of resistance is what gives the cafeterians the power they have (previous paragraph). The women priests, doing away with traditions “because Canon,” and liturgical abuses.

    @Chad

    If you’re single, its easier for bachelors to move to such communities than women. But the communities also lose more men to the world, so it balances.

    There are other communities that aren’t as crazy, but they aren’t as remote. From what I’ve seen, there’s serious trade offs to both.

    I don’t consider these communities “crazy.” But for a lot of people, it’s a bit of a stretch.

    (My jaw is still on the floor from your low-priced rent…dang.)

  20. Maea

    Since we were on the subject of the annulments, what do you all think of this:

    http://trcthoughts.com/2015/08/the-church-is-not-well/#comment-358202

  21. @mdavid
    Actually she’s not from out here either, but wanted to be. I brought her in from Tulsa, finding her a job and living situation, after we started courting. She spent all her 20s in discernment to be a nun, or teaching children for nuns, and was very set against the world. There definitely are other young people out here though, and solid marriage choices. Its not clear cut out here though; some families brought cultural baggage with them, and the kids still have to purge it themselves as well. Half the families are more matriarchal than patriarch, but the children much, MUCH less so.

    Again, life isn’t easy out here. But I wouldn’t trade it at all. If this is too hard for anyone reading, I’d recommend looking at maple hill in kansas. Less away from the world, less hardships, but more worldly from what I saw my one visit.

    The wilderness out here shows us who we are, calls us to improve, and the monks hold the community together in all things.

  22. mdavid

    Maea, I don’t believe in joining the world, as much as changing it.
    The Church is overrun many places in the West. People (esp. those with families and children) are smart to flee and regroup. Long game. The people who really change the world? Those who don’t get bogged down in inter-parish wars, but rather raise strong families and do good works.

    …while the other parishes languish under liberalism.
    Bishop’s and pastor’s call. Look, liberal RC is a joke and lives only to offend. So just starve the monster. Can’t save people who don’t want to be saved. But you can offer another way, and welcome them.

    Many are adamant the Church is theirs— why should they change?
    Chuckling here. Serious RCs get zero support in my area, don’t need it, nor care much anymore. That’s so 1990s. They plow ahead, give more to the Church than they get, and let the chips fall where they may.

    Finding a community…is like finding a needle in a haystack.
    Don’t find it, build it. Get unity with one’s spouse and family. Then one other family. Then another. And so on. Long game. Move as needed. But never expect Church (or others) to help, only hurt. It’s a war zone. You are on your own. So invite somebody over for dinner. Tonight.

  23. Maea

    @mdavid

    Those who don’t get bogged down in inter-parish wars, but rather raise strong families and do good works.

    Inter-parish wars??

    Don’t find it, build it. Get unity with one’s spouse and family. Then one other family.

    I think you underestimate how difficult it is to find these people. Most of them are too into what’s going on in their own lives to be bothered. You have to be of a certain “fit.” Interracial couple? Too “diverse.” Convert? Zealot. Childless? Sinner. Nonwhite convert? Not touching that.

    There are other traditional Christians, and they get too bent over Catholicism (“idol-worship”).

  24. @ Maea
    “What I’m interested in is getting the people who are serious to make baby steps.”

    Check out Maple Hill. One of the women out there, Leane VDP, runs a blog on femininity and how women can build up a Catholic household through submission and being a biblical helpmeet. I read it regularly to send the best ones to my fiance; both to help inspire here as well as to start good conversations on what kind of family and what traditions we want to build. But Maple Hill is by a big city, in a small town. This gives it a good amount of job opportunity for those unable to make a more rural/agrarian lifestyle work.

    https://finerfem.wordpress.com/

    “They’re friendly, but it operates like an exclusive club. ”

    No. They simply have made sacrifices to get where they are. You expect to get into communities that have weathered these storms when they don’t know if you’re the real thing, or some SJW coming in to mess with their worlds? That’s insane, and unjust, to expect to be treated the same as those whom have built up the very kind of community you want. You should also keep in mind that many such parishes have people that drive long distances to attend, and Mass is the only time they get to see their spiritual family. I myself, drive an hour and a half to go to a FSSP parish, despite living by a monastery, because the monastery is not a parish. I know others that drive two hours. They sacrifice day in and out. However, to get in all it requires is the hard toil and sacrifices already demanded of us by Christ and the Church. Just focus on God and stay through long enough for them to see it.

    “I don’t particularly believe in joining the world, as much as I believe in changing it”

    This is prideful. Change yourself, work on sainthood. When you get to the spiritual strength where God and our Lady can use you for such, they’ll let you know. Most of our Saints were quiet and would not have written a single book, except the Church told them to. Most of those were in the latter days of their lives; in retirement. The rest of their writings is mostly letters. If the saints were content simply being as holy as they could, and relying on God to change the world through the graces given to others through your works by a dutiful and holy pursuit of your station in life, why go against such well trodden and beautifully humble paths towards heaven?

    “My jaw is still on the floor from your low-priced rent…dang.”

    Its because I live with my landlord, an older widow, who wants protection. The low price tag is due to being well armed and being a man. I took a break in the middle of writing this comment to behead a cottonmouth snake her dogs had cornered before it bit them. Muscles, tools, wisdom, good character, and a few guns will get you accepted in a lot of places in this world.

  25. Maea

    You expect to get into communities that have weathered these storms when they don’t know if you’re the real thing, or some SJW coming in to mess with their worlds? That’s insane, and unjust, to expect to be treated the same as those whom have built up the very kind of community you want.

    I’m not sure my meaning was clear. I don’t go crashing in, horses blazing. At least, that’s certainly not what happened preceding the conversation I had with a woman about St. Monica at one of these parishes. I had just met her and her husband. The people were very friendly, introduced themselves, one woman was a blogger. But I still had the vibe.

    This is prideful.

    How is it prideful to not want to isolate one’s self? I don’t understand that. Yes, many of the Saints were quiet, but many of them lived in isolation (cloistered convents). That’s not everyone’s cup of tea.

  26. If you’re welcomed, and reject it for a nondescript or emotional reaction against all evidence, I don’t really know what to tell you. Maybe simply to take a risk and keep going. Traditional communities are quirky; you can’t be undergoing a purging -and- a building up and expect everything to be normal. Just stick it through.

    “How is it prideful to not want to isolate one’s self?”

    How is living as 99.99% of humans have ever lived isolation? Where did I say to isolate yourself? No where.

    You’re reading into it and projecting your emotional reaction onto what I said.

    I said to change yourself. To make yourself a saint. Even our patron saint of media, St Maximilian Kolbe, did that. He focused on poverty and a devoted life in service to God through Mary. She called him forward to serve publicly long after he had gotten his own soul and house in order; it wasn’t until the Franciscans were rejuvenated that his paper or radio station went anywhere.

    The same is true for all our priests made saints. Padre Pio, the Cure of Ars, etc. They served faithfully as priests, quietly running themselves ragged and used up by God, before they ever did anything that caught the world’s attention. It’s true for families – often you see one saint and a whole slew of blessed souls; if not multiple saints (Terez, Benard, etc). Families that simply did what was hard, what was right, and did so quietly.

    I am saying your focus is on the world, simply in the statement that you want to change the world. Focus on God first, then try to see yourself as he sees you, AND THEN you MIGHT be able to be an instrument of grace to others as He sees fit. The only soul we can save in this life is our own; after that the largest influence we have is on our spouse, and then our children. Get right with God, get right with them, and then worry about the world.

  27. To further the example of Kolbe – Kolbe waited multiple years before he got anywhere. He first made the Militia Immaculata with a small group of people; something like 7. He stayed with those original souls for over a year, until the superior gave him permission to expand. Then he started seeking approval from Rome. I think it took 5 years, but my memory from his writings and biography is hazy.

    Then he took the time to found the Marytown in Poland. He set it apart by demanding that everyone in it be consecrated to Mary and take it seriously.

    And by doing so he reached hundreds of thousands, started a radio, founded another Marytown in Japan which was instrumental to converting Japanese to Christianity, and set the stage for other Marytowns all over the world.

    By withdrawing from the world we seek shelter in Christ’s heart. By becoming less, He becomes more. He can do anything if you just get yourself out of the way and perform your station in life as piously and devotedly as you can. To do this you need to keep good company, keep a Godly silence and peace in your soul, and put away the things of this world.

    Do whatever it takes to make that happen.

  28. Why would my kids want to get married if during their entire lives they have never even seen any affection between my wife and myself. Why put yourself into a sexless hell when everyone around you is having fun. Kind of a hard sell there. If your a man you are up against women who have spread their legs for every mystery meat stranger imaginable or frigid women with a giant list of requirements. It’s not Catholicism that’s dying it’s Christianity.

  29. mdavid

    Maea, look, I agree with you completely. Your facts are sound. To follow Christ, however, is to interpret things differently, with hope and charity.

    I think you underestimate how difficult it is to find people. Most are too into what’s going on in their own lives to be bothered.
    No, I don’t. It’s a war zone. Nobody will help you. Nobody. Many will attack you for some perceived injustice. Liberalism and individualism has taken it’s toll. People are hurting. Expect the very worst. Life is hard.

    Have be of a certain “fit.” Interracial couple? Too “diverse.” Convert? Zealot. Childless? Sinner. Nonwhite convert? Not touching that.
    Many people have accused me of judging them merely by stating the faith or having kids, or being my race. Keep trying. Then try again. Regarding race, even fully racially unified people hate each other. Don’t project. Any shrink will tell you 90% of the folk out there feel just like you.

    …trad Christians…get too bent over Catholicism (“idol-worship”).
    Agree. They are often damaged and upset. So what? Think war zone. Don’t be surprised if you see a lot of injured, angry, maimed people around you. Everyone has a story, and some are heartbreaking.

    Suggestion: DO something. Serve. Join LOM or SVDP. Do prison ministry. Volunteer at soup kitchens. Do adoration. Join prayer groups, Join bible studies. Do this for a full year while expecting to get treated like crap. If you don’t find a single family you can even invite to dinner, I’ll eat my hat. Remember, nearly everyone is just like you, only worse off, more angry, and desperate for somebody, anybody to care. Liberalism has taken it’s toll.

    Read dvdivx above. This is the norm. People are truly suffering in this terrible war. If you are not completely damaged and are married, consider yourself very lucky, say a prayer of thanksgiving, and embrace the Cross.

  30. “That’s the way it is now. Those marriages have never been valid.”

    No, that’s not the way it is now, which is why this conversation is occurring. Giving people an expedited path to Hell isn’t the role of the Catholic Church. The reason liberals are excited about this is the same reason traditionalists are alarmed. Conservatives, like always, are keeping busy running interference, insisting nothing has changed. To our enemies it’s fine if the official doctrine still stands, as long as it’s a dead letter. That’s still a win for them.

  31. An anecdote– a traditional parish I visited some time ago had very good reviews of it posted online. While reading, I did come across one review which was telling of the current state of things. The reviewer mentioned it was great traditional parishes exist, but there’s a problem. What ends up happening is all the traditional Catholics leave to swarm these parishes, making them “safe houses,” while the other parishes languish under liberalism. There’s a reason why the review resonated with me. I don’t particularly believe in joining the world, as much as I believe in changing it.

    This isn’t false, and it’s also the case in quite a few Eastern Catholic parishes as well, many of which have more Trad oriented RCs in them.

    I don’t think, though, that the mainstream is that fixable in the short term. If anything, more relentless liberalizing pressure is coming, and the current Pope seems bent on inviting it ( a recent CNN op-ed is here, just to take a recent example: http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/10/opinions/costello-women-in-church/index.html ). In this context, I think a good case can be made for the benefit of strategic withdrawal from the mainstream to cultivate the kind of strength and virtue required to make a difference over the longer term.

  32. mdavid

    mdavid, That’s the way it is now. Those marriages never been valid.
    Patrick, No, that’s not the way it is now,
    You are simply wrong. Those marriages have never been valid. This is a fact, not an opinion. Read your Akin link. He agrees with me, not you.

    The reason liberals are excited is why traditionalists are alarmed.
    Akin isn’t alarmed. The trads I hang with ain’t. Libs are excited, yes, because so many fools are so easily manipulated. Yes, certain “trads” follow the media not the pope. But most trads remain 100% on board with the magisterium and historical church.

    Schisms never stop. It’s where feminism comes from. Moderns hate headship and obedience. Everyone is their own bishop and pope. Many “trads” are just prot wanna bes, not long for the Church. Like prots or EO or feminists they will continue to fade, mired in the disunity which they seek.

  33. I see the cuckservative label really does sting, even when applied to a religious context. Political cuckservatives get cover from appeals to law and political processes. Religious cuckservatives get cover from appeals to obedience, as if they had no intellect and will and no responsibility to use them.

    No, I’m not wrong, and you’re being dishonest: the many valid marriages that will be “annulled” with the new standard weren’t ever invalid.

    But I remember arguing with you last January about the beauty of the NO vs. the TLM–you were constantly trying to move the goal posts then, too. I don’t know if you’re just logically inept or a liar, but either way I detest arguing with people who do that. Goodbye.

  34. Maea

    @mdavid:

    Suggestion: DO something.

    That’s exactly what I’m doing. I will admit– there are times where I wonder if I am engaging in an island (it’s frustrating). My husband gave up a long time ago (hen-pecked by a woman in charge in a parish…no need to say more).

    If I can’t find a family to invite over for dinner, I’ll eat my own hat.

  35. Maea,
    I don’t know if there’s any FSSP parish near you, but if there is, give it a shot. I never had a problem, and I’ve only been going there two years, and only converted a year and 9 months ago. Our parish is welcoming to all traditional Catholics, even if you have a background. Most of our parishoners are converts, and they understand how messy life gets outside of the walls of the Church, as well as how hard it is to seek to put those behind you in real ways.

    But, don’t give up. I’m glad to hear you’re doing something. We need good families.

    [DG: I would also suggest a Byzantine/Ruthenian Catholic Church, if one is near you. I have found them to be very open to the devout and orthodox, no matter one’s background.]

  36. I don’t know enough to have anything meaningful to say regarding the annulment situation. I leave that to those who are more learned than I.

    What I will say is that I believe that proper doctrine with improper practice is likely more dangerous than improper doctrine. The latter is more clear its error, and can be more clearly addressed.

  37. mdavid

    DG, I would disagree: 1) anyone considering marriage should confidently know when annulments are proper (it’s simple anyway), & 2) with improper doctrine, one can’t reform practice (so more dangerous, e.g., prots).

    But the discussion root is (as always): must sheep follow if they disagree with the shepherd’s practice (e.g., wives, prots, some trads, EO)?

  38. Maea

    @ Chad and DG:

    I actually found an FSSP parish within 15 minutes of me…funny I never noticed (or knew) of it before. There are Eastern Rite parishes, along with a Ruthenian.

    This is what I get for only looking at the suburbs.

  39. Maea,
    If you do go, please let me know how it is. I havw been truly blessed with all my experiences with the FSSP, and want to make sure others are as well if I’m going to advocate for them

  40. @ Maea

    I would investigate both types of parishes. I would imagine that at least one is the home you are looking for.

  41. Emily

    “Very much in tune with the problems in the Church right now”

    What are the problems in the Church?

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s