I was out and about town yesterday when I overheard a conversation between several older ladies. Probably very early Boomers, if I was to guess. It wasn’t my intent to overhear them, and I missed most of what they said. However, I caught some of it, and will paraphrase the small part that I did hear.
Lady 1: …and she [grand-daughter, I think- I never heard for certain] is going with a new guy now. He treats her well, is very respectful and considerate.
Lady 2: He seems nice.
Lady 1: Oh, he is. I like him. He has a good job and seems very responsible. I hope that it works out between them.
Lady 3: Oh, so you think it/he [not sure which was said] has potential?
Lady 1: I think so. She is [in her late twenties] and is starting to think about settling down now. He would be a good choice.
The first thing that ran through my head upon hearing this was as follows:
That poor son of a #@$*&, he has no idea what he is getting himself into it.
After a moment I realized what I had thought, and further realized that I didn’t know these people. I didn’t know the ladies, I didn’t know the grand-daughter, and I didn’t know the man. What was I doing making all of these assumptions and coming to these conclusions?
Yet, the thing is, I’m more likely right than wrong, and I know it. I’ve seen this before. I caught that conversation because of some of the “trigger” words used by those ladies. A minute’s worth of conversation had me convinced that this guy was your typical Beta White-Knight. I could always be wrong, but I don’t think I am. The way that the ladies described him fits that profile to a T. The grand-daughter I was less certain about, but that comment about settling down (coupled with her age), made me think that she was at or approaching her Epiphany Phase. The tone used by the [presumed] grandmother also lent credence to that inference [I almost thought I picked up a hint that the woman in question might have some regrets].
As I contemplated that conversation later that day, I couldn’t help but feel sympathy for that unknown man. I have no idea who is he, but that didn’t stop me all the same. And while it is possible that I misread everything, and that my sympathy is unneeded, the sentiment was still expressed. Having seen what can happen to a man who falls for that particular trap, I would have trouble wishing it on my worst enemies. What I am curious about is if I am alone in feeling this. Do some of my male readers experience similar sympathies? Or is this just me? I ask because it isn’t an isolated occurrence for me- I often feel for men who are caught, or look to be caught, in the web of lies that is sometimes referred to as “Blue Pill land.” Feel free to add your thoughts on this, and anything else related to the subject, in the comments.
Donal Graeme 
What strikes me about this conversation is that these women considered her “settling down” at (late 20s) to be normal and just part of life for a young woman. It’s just how it is. There’s no real thought given to what the man wants, thinks or desires. It is his duty, as the responsible, unassuming man with the good job, to fall in line, do the right thing, and play his role as Husband/Father of child(ren) for her. To serve her interests.
not only was her “settling” down normal; but the conversation itself is “normal”. It seems to be commonplace. I’ve heard similar conversations too, at least amongst work colleagues.
After a moment I realized what I had thought, and further realized that I didn’t know these people. I didn’t know the ladies, I didn’t know the grand-daughter, and I didn’t know the man. What was I doing making all of these assumptions and coming to these conclusions?
You were filtering the situation through “red”-colored lenses, and jumping to the same conclusions that are most commonly talked about around here. It’s become an automatic thought response now. It’s not just you; I’ve found myself doing this in various ways too, and I’m sure others do it too (whether they think they do or not).
I work in a pharmacy, which gives me a detailed perspective of parts of the lives of strangers. I know how old people are (since I must obtain their date of birth), I know their health conditions, I know when women get married (when it comes time to change their last name in the computer system), I know some of their lifestyle choices, etc. All of this means I must watch myself in not judging people based on a little bit of information, when that judgement could be very wrong because I don’t know them personally. Like, if a girl is picking up her birth control, I catch myself wondering how badly she’s ruined herself already and feel immense pity for her. But then I realize that since there are other reasons why doctors put people on birth control other than to prevent pregnancy (and they never specify why on the prescription, so I can never know for sure unless the girl says something about it), that I could be misjudging her greatly (especially if she doesn’t otherwise strike me as fitting the bill of being promiscuous). I could list multiple examples, but you get my point, I’m sure.
So I think we all do this in one way or another.
It’s the life script, so not abnormal.
What you don’t know is whether it’s a case of lane-changing from AF to BB. That would take more information and probably knowing them or seeing them together. But the script is now kind of set for most people over a certain SES paygrade.
FBNF,
Good comment. The famous rose-colored lenses.
re settling down…this article says marriage should be a “developmental priority”. So how many rush into marriage, settle, because they don’t want to have the social stigma of being developmentally delayed. Its a problem. Marriage is just a box to check on our developmental checklist and it doesn’t matter how much thought is given to it, just don’t be left behind with the slow kids. Nowadays, a woman without a college degree or career is also developmentally delayed. Housewives are looked at as stunted in comparison.
http://www.crosswalk.com/devotionals/breakpoint-daily-commentary/can-mad-men-teach-us-christian-chivalry.html
@ Deti and Novaseeker
It could be either a case of life script settling or moving from AF to BB (possibly both). The latter, or the possibility of it, was the source of my sympathy for the unknown man.
As for a life script thing, what I find interesting is that the conversation sounded much like many that would have been held in the past… to describe a son or grand-son finally deciding to settle down. Not a daughter or granddaughter. My but times have changed.
@ FBNF
I guess I wasn’t clear enough. Those questions where rhetorical. I know what was going on. I just wanted to remark on that- that it had become instinctual. But not something that I was blind to either. And once I realized it, I was able to take a step back. But ultimately my evaluation didn’t change- too much added up to support that conclusion. I hope, for everyone’s sake, that I was wrong.
@ LGR
Thanks for the link. That article was swimming in ignorance, but that should come as no surprise.
The phrase “developmental priority” is coldly clinical, and seems like yet another instance of pop-pysch influencing “Christian” thought.
You worry me Donal. You are too self-introspective and humble for your own good. No it’s not you. It’s not me. Nor the “red pill”. It’s just reality for anyone wishing to have a real family. And if not, why marry? I wouldn’t date that young woman unless she despised her own grandmother. Sad.
The most interesting part of the story? Boomers. My oh my, do so many boomers have so much pain on the way. Old age is hard enough in good times, but it’s incredibly sad to die alone or surrounded by small and broken families while the culture implodes. The pain is very real.
A combox is too small to relate the outpouring of pain I’ve heard from complete strangers merely by having a large family. It jogs the shameless boomer memory back to the happy days of their youth.. They tear up and won’t shut up. Yet few boomers have any real understanding of the monster they have created, let alone the how or why. And next to none have started to repent. But many remember the happy days of their youth, and I’ve seen them search in vain for those images in the faces of their children and grandchildren. They used up all the cultural seed corn of the West in a single generation, and I hope the party was worth it. The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
This happens to me often. I always try to remind myself that I don’t know the situation but then there is always the sinking feeling that I am probably right. Most often it happens when a wife is using a nasty tone toward her husband in public. I remember Elspeth posted something similar to this shortly before she closed shop.
I think it’s natural. It’s part of our brains ability to stereotype and as much as we’ve all been taught that this is a horrible thing to do, it’s not. We wouldn’t be able to function without that ability.
Still, it being natural, I still try to remember I do not know these people and I hope, for the sake of hope (and because I’m not perfect and neither are they) that I am wrong.
I didn’t know these people
Well don’t let that stop you. Novaseekers “lifescript” description is useful. Beyond that it’s really none of our business, is it? I mean, did you get the man’s number so you could warn him? No. Did you offer to pray for the conversion of her granddaughter’s heart to chastity and invite them to Church? No. So, short of those things, we’re congratulating ourselves on our confirmation bias by gossiping and casting dispersions upon people based on a conversation that did not involve us?
Humans love drama. Humans love gossip. Humans love gotcha. This was some trifecta of humanity, Donal. I must say I’m shocked – the pedestal upon which I keep you has been most violently upset.
I often feel for men who are caught, or look to be caught, in the web of lies that is sometimes referred to as “Blue Pill land.”
If actions are what give our words meaning, I don’t think you or any of us actually give one salty tear. And I mean that with all the charity I can muster.
At the end of the day let’s not forget to that which we have been called:
1 Corinthians 2:1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the [a]testimony of God. 2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
Discussion over culture, politics, family, and life scripts can be useful tools. But let us not lose sight of Jesus Chrsit and Him crucified.
Whenever I see people following so-called “lifescripts” or “falling into unrighteousness” that should push my heart to want them to know the love of Jesus and stimulate me to action.
I remember Elspeth posted something similar to this shortly before she closed shop.
I wrote two such posts. In the one case, I was actually in a conversation with a woman ( a stranger I met in the supermarket) who expressed condescension and a superior attitude about her husband after I congratulated her on achieving 51 years of marriage.
The second one was when our family overheard a wife scolding her husband as if he were a toddler at a state park, drawing the attention and snickers of several people within earshot.
In retrospect both posts could be considered gossip with a healthy bit of conjecture thrown in since I didn’t know the people involved.
I’m sorry Donal, but this is the kind of thing that bothers me so much about both Christians and red pills. There is such a temptation to paint everybody with the same brush, to believe you and only you possess the truth, and too cluck in pity at all the lesser people out in the world. Nobody really knows anothers heart, nobody knows what their future holds, what plans God has for them.
Today we look at everybody who is getting married with pity, those suckers, they’re being played, and then we wonder why marriage is on the decline, why people no longer want to get married…or to follow Christ for that matter. You have to be made of tough stuff to do both, because the entire world will line up to take pot shots at you.
In retrospect both posts could be considered gossip
Is it though? Gossip confuses me. In a recent sermon I heard the priest spoke about gossip as not simply discussing others but doing it in a fashion as to lower those people and raises oneself. It’s a form of pride. That’s sounds right to me. I can’t know yours or Donal’s heart but is discussing these things to see if they happen to others or discussing them in a manner to say, hey. I shouldn’t have felt this way (as I remember your second post above said) is that really gossip? Is it wrong to point out not to do these things that you have witnessed others doing? Or does it depend on where you heart is and your intentions?
As I said before, I think stereotyping is a very normal human behavior. As with so many of our human behaviors, it is what we do with them that matter as we cannot make ourselves more than human. We can simply strive to do what is right.
Velvet, Elspeth, Insanity, Sting:
This is going to hurt a bit. Bear with me.
Donal made an observation about a conversation in his earshot. He applied knowledge about social dynamics and the sexual and marriage marketplaces he gleaned from the manosphere. Given today’s society and those dynamics and marketplaces, Donal’s observation was, more probably than not, absolutely correct.
So I don’t care how you feel about it, and neither should any man here. What you’re essentially doing is engaging in “feel bad” and shaming Donal for making what was likely a spot-on observation. You might not like that, but neither nature, nor hypergamy, nor divorce laws care how we “feel” about that. Men have to be taught about this and have to learn to guard against it. And frankly, I don’t care that you don’t like that. I don’t care that it offends you. I don’t care that you feel bad about it. And I don’t care that there’s a maybe 5% chance that Donal was wrong.
“Novaseekers “lifescript” description is useful. Beyond that it’s really none of our business, is it?”
To the extent that the episode can be used to illustrate and support what we know to be true about social dynamics and the current sexual and marriage marketplaces, yes, it is very much our business.
And men had damn well better make it their business to learn this stuff, or they very well could find themselves on the business end of a nasty divorce, or in a sexless, loveless marriage, or estranged from their children.
“If actions are what give our words meaning, I don’t think you or any of us actually give one salty tear.”
Donal’s writing about an episode he witnessed and applying his knowledge to it to reach likely accurate conclusions about what he saw and heard is “giving one salty tear”. He’s helping others avoid that man’s likely fate.
Again: The fact that women commenting on this board do not like men observing other women’s discussions and deciphering the likely hidden meanings in them is of little consequence to me, and should be of little consequence to most men.
That doesn’t hurt deti. That is what my question about gossip is trying to get at. Making an observation and then talking about that observation with others, not with the intent to raise yourself above those others but to garner information, as I see donal doing here, or to teach, I don’t see that as gossip. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t really think Donal did anything wrong and his observation and thoughts were quite natural. His thinking that those thoughts might not be appropriate and trying to suss it out are not inappropriate.
Elspeth wrote only about herself.
As I am thinking about this more, Velvet and Insanity especially, what happened here was that a man observed women talking about a matter relevant to the sexual marketplace, and he accurately deciphered what he heard. He figured out what he was REALLY hearing.
And you ladies know it, and you don’t like it. You don’t like the fact that men are wising up to all this, and are figuring it out, because you won’t be as able to pull the wool over men’s eyes.
Interesting Deti, as I offered absolutely NO critique of Donal’s post at all. That was a response to the mention of similar posts I’d written in the past and whether or not in retrospect there was sufficient knowledge to judge the people so harshly.
Still not really cured of the tendency to draw harsh conclusions about “lesser” wives, but I have learned to be quiet and pray for them.
Donal’s understanding of the situation may be correct, but for all he knew the couple could have been devout believers and the girl as pure as the driven snow. We have known a couple of women who made it to 25 as virgins before they married. It really does happen, rare though it may be.
But even with that, there are no guarantees that the marriage would be a flowery bed of ease, so the guy (or the girl) in this case probably could use a few prayers for the best outcome in addition to the sympathy he was granted for being a beta sap.
Well, what do we really know? There is a girl in her late 20’s and her grandmother likes her beau.
He figured out what he was REALLY hearing.
Did he, now? Interesting. Perhaps it is the burden of mothering teenagers, but I am always suspicious when something is presented as the only possible way a thing could be.
And you ladies know it, and you don’t like it. You don’t like the fact that men are wising up to all this, and are figuring it out, because you won’t be as able to pull the wool over men’s eyes.
That’s never going to happen (no snark, straight face). We need to deal in grave realities, not fantasy. Still, isn’t useful to gossip about others, using their (supposed) bad behavior as an excuse for our own.
That’s never going to happen (no snark, straight face). We need to deal in grave realities, not fantasy.
LOL.
Velvet:
I wonder why you’re so invested in the view that donal jumped to conclusions here. Could it be you know Donal could be correct?
Could it be you don’t like what that says about the women in question or about the motivations of women en masse, consequences to the man’s life be damned?
Maeve, Well, what do we really know? There is a girl in her late 20’s and her grandmother likes her beau.
I know this much: a grandmother says of her granddaughter …she is [in her late twenties] and starting to think about settling down. I also know any man foolish enough to marry a woman with this approach to life is not likely to have much of a family. I also know that a grandmother who says such stuff (without a moral clause or any regret like you would hear 50 years ago) is clearly (and rightfully) an influence for a failed linage regarding that daughter (at least).
To expand on my prior comment: was on a family run yesterday night (double stroller, kids on bikes). I ran by at least 5 couples with female 30-45 yo. Half of the women looked older than their partners. No kids, but lots of dogs! Saw only one woman below 30 who was not overweight. She just stared, and I mean shamelessly stared, at the stroller (her partner looked away, natch)…then she shot the parting look at mother but more the “hopeful” rather than the “I hate you” look (the latter is more common from that age set). So when I hear unqualified comments like the grandmother in this post, I can’t help but see a millstone and the deep blue sea. Hey, everyone sins. But I hope by the time I’m a grandparent I’m at least starting to repent…
Really, how is it gossip when Donal is not giving the names of the individuals?
People need to keep in mind that gossip is an act of injustice because it is the theft amd destruction of a man’s right to a good name. It is an act of injustice because it involves judgement where those involved have no ability (lack of knowledge on full depth of the situation) nor right (person lies outside of their God given power and responsibilities).
Donal is doing none of this. The person is anonymous. The -most- you could accuse Donal of and warn him of is to avoid pride, as God gave him the graces and wisdom to see these problems and not he, himself.
Christians accusing others of unChristian behavior should at least try to know that on which they speak.
I wonder why you’re so invested in the view that donal jumped to conclusions here. Could it be you know Donal could be correct?
Could it be you don’t like what that says about the women in question or about the motivations of women en masse, consequences to the man’s life be damned?
No.
Mdavid – we have the grandmother’s words that her granddaughter is thinking about settling down. We don’t actually know what the granddaughter thinks or does because the actual people who were the focus of the conversation were not, in fact, there. We have hearsay.
My friends and I talk about our children all the time and I can tell you that we also tend to project our own desires regarding them and their lives into the discussion.
In short, the only thing that might be reliable about the conversation is that the grandmother seems to like the young man.
Christians accusing others of unChristian behavior should at least try to know that on which they speak.
Chad, inventing or supposing entire story lines for others is gossip, and wrong. Eavesdropping, how the whole thing began, is a vein of gossip. Conjecture, speculation….the list goes on. I think I’m good.
“the only thing that might be reliable about the conversation is that the grandmother seems to like the young man.”
Well, no. What is reliable and known is the young woman is “late 20s” and “thinking of settling down” and grandma thinks the young man would “be a good choice” because he “treats her well, is very respectful and considerate” and “has a good job and seems very responsible”.
Hamsterlation: “Princess has been riding the carousel for quite a while, and she’s getting a bit scared that she might be getting too old for this. Princess needs to find someone now and work on babies. This guy fits the bill and she can use him. He is nice, deferential, and will follow her lead. Most important, he has a good job, which means money money money for the house, the minivan and the stuff she’ll need for the babies.”
No Deti – the young woman’s age is the only fact. Well that and she is dating a particular man. Since the actual person is not there to speak for herself, it’s all hearsay – and that’s not reliable. Everything else is the grandmother’s opinion.
@ Velvet
Just because you say something is gossip, does not make it so.
Really, I give you a reasoned and logical examination of what the sin is, as well as what the spirit of what we’re told to do, and you simply make a statement and expect us to take you seriously?
This is why men treat most women like children – you behave like one. I expect the same kind of responses from five year olds when asked to explain their thoughts or actions.
Velvet
Should you desire to educate yourself:
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3073.htm
This is where you’ve filled in the story with your own imagination.
You know the grandmother and perhaps the granddaughter have designs on the man, so that’s not gossip on your part. But how do you know the man is so innocent or has any intention of playing along with the women’s plans? For all you know, he’s the player, not the played.
THis is absolutely fascinating.
The men are here to defend themselves and each other.
The women commenting here insist that the men not reach any conclusions, not think critically, and not apply generally known principles to the overheard facts. According to the women here, men are not to acknowledge that women generally speak in code and euphemisms to and about each other, especially about sex and relationships. Men are to be gentle as doves, but not wise as serpents.
If the shoe were on the other foot and there was an overheard discussion of men talking about one of their relatives banging a girl and his later intentions, you can bet there’d be all sorts of ladies reaching all sorts of conclusions about the man, the woman, the man’s intentions, the woman’s fate, and all other known and unknown various and sundry aspects of the discussion. No one would be telling the ladies to stay their hand, not to jump to any conclusions, or clucking about what was unknown.
Very interesting.
Maeve, In short, the only thing that might be reliable about the conversation is that the grandmother seems to like the young man.
Pah. Why are we dancing here? 95% of American women (and men) today think marriage at 30 yo is fine, even commendable. I don’t. And any grandmother who thinks like myself could have that convo in that way. And you wouldn’t have heard this a mere 50 years ago. Settle down? From what? Work? Sowing oats? A grandmother. Sheese. Death of the West. I won’t miss ’em when they are gone.
Men are to be gentle as doves and wise as serpents but not gossipy as old hens.
SSM
There is no gossip.
There is a discussion about the interior disposition and thoughts of men as we interact with the fallen world around us, wishing that people knew the truth. There is differing amounts of pity and sympathy of the individual men in conversation.
And there are women that don’t understand what they’re talking about trying to make lots of noise.
“There is a discussion about the interior disposition and thoughts of men as we interact with the fallen world around us, wishing that people knew the truth. There is differing amounts of pity and sympathy of the individual men in conversation.”
There is also a discussion about what a woman said about her granddaughter, speaking in terms that men with knowledge of sexual dynamics and the SMP/MMP well understand. Reasonable conclusions about what was said were reached. The discussion and the conclusions were published here for the edification of men in the SMP/MMP. They are here for education, for warning and for teaching and learning. Men need to understand the world they live in, and it is to that end that the discussion was published.
“And there are women that don’t understand what they’re talking about trying to make lots of noise.”
Yes. This isn’t gossip. It would be if the persons were known or disclosed. But since it’s anonymous and is based on a real world occurrence, it is useful for men’s edification.
what’s really going on here is that the ladies object to men talking about these things and learning about them.
Half of the women here are being ridiculous.
Gossip is idle talk and rumor about another person. Slander is more direct accusations about another person. Libel is obviously printed. Gossip, slander, and libel influence the perception of the character of the person being discussed. The people in Donal’s post are ANONYMOUS. Thus, it is not gossip, slander, or libel.
If we all knew the person and Donal was hinting at it by dropping hints about who it was while saying negative things, then I would agree that it could be construed as gossip. This is what women often do behind each other’s backs. However, that is not the case.
Stop saying that it is gossip. You are making yourselves look ignorant.
It may be a case of potentially “jumping to the wrong conclusion” but this is not gossip as you don’t know any of these people.
Back to the original post
Donal, I felt such sympathy for a long time. I had enough experience with it and was close enough to the pain to always do so and do what I could to offer a helpful hand.
However, I’ve seen so many times where the hand extended gets bitten in such situations that I usually feel mere pity these days.
That is not to say that I do not endevour to help all situations before me, simply that I am more corcumspect about it. It is a leading towards truth and assistance to grow in virtue in relation to that. Telling men the truth, and giving thrm no tools to deal with it, is more hurtful than helpful. From what I’ve seen it leads to more pain, trials, and despair than anything else other than continuing in ignorance.
So you sew seeds. You come back to gently water them, pull weeds, and encourage fruit to grow.
And you leave the rest to God
If anyone was “gossiping”, it was the women in the conversation Donal overheard. Donal didn’t gossip. He reported the conversation without divulging any potentially identifying details; and did so for the purpose of illustrating principles of sexual and social dynamics to men.
From the link that Chad helpfully put up:
This man’s honor nor name have been sullied. Nor have any of the other peoples names or honor been sullied.
Only Donal can say whether or not he has been prideful, but making observations about the realities of the world is not a sin. Being sympathetic to what statically is most likely the truth today and then reminding ones self that said statistic is not at 100% is not wrong. Knowing that that statistic is far higher than 50% is not wrong either.
“Stay and play” is very real, and dominated by males stringing women along without any hope of marriage or children, but the woman doesn’t know that until often too late for children. If I were going to rampantly speculate, I’d say mdavid encountered at least one such case on his family walk.
There are many women who date only the kind of guy they want to marry, and those women tend to have good marriages and also not date around much either before marrying. And no, it’s not limited to the nineteen hundred women making 250k/yr and up. Donal could have speculated in that direction, especially as it carries a fair amount of explanatory power that the frivorce narrative does not regarding total divorce and support monies data.
Marrying between 25-35 is not optimal for chastity reasons and marrying between 30-35 is not optimal for childbearing and raising reasons, but most marriages among conservative Christians don’t fail even when entered into during the late 20s and early 30s, a supermajority in fact, and most women don’t sue for support of the relatively few conservative Christians that divorce with children in the mix (and just having more kids than thumbs puts such marriages in basically a single digit risk of divorce). Let’s remember that dalrock’s painstaking data showed that a minority of divorces lead to suing for support, not a majority.
@ Practical:
Let me fix this for you.
“Stay and play” can happen, and dominated by A FEW males stringing women along without any hope of marriage or children, but the woman doesn’t know that until often too late for children.”
(Rampant apex fallacy here — most men do not do this with women because they cannot. Women are firmly in the driver’s seat when it comes to dating, from first meeting to sex to marriage to children to divorce. If any woman is getting strung along by a player, no one is to blame but her — she obviously prefers player sex to marriage to a nonplayer.)
“There are A FEW women who date only the kind of guy they want to marry, and SOME OF those women tend to have good marriages and also not date around much either before marrying.”
Practical:
No woman gets with a player unless she wants to. Every woman who gets with a player knows EXACTLY what she’s getting into. She knows the risks; knows the upsides and downsides; and goes into it with eyes wide open about exactly what she’s getting.
You couldn’t ask for a clearer case of “assumption of the risk”.
No, you’re actually just wrong. The statistical data agrees with me. That naughty wench Statistics. I guess she’s riding the alpha carousel with her scandalous sister Data Analysis.
Most women aren’t with players, as far as the stay and play goes. The guy isn’t necessarily tomcatting around, he just doesn’t see why he should marry and/or have kids since “we’re having so much fun and it’s just a piece of paper”. Hardly women in the driver’s seat scenarios.
Show the stats, “Practical”.