Tall, Dark And Handsome

One of the arguments that I’ve raised on this blog which has consistently generated the most opposition is that Christian women have the same sexual attraction or arousal filters that secular women have. In fact, I created my LAMPS/PSALM model in large part as a response to Christian women who objected that they “Were Not Like That.” My goal in creating LAMPS/PSALM was to provide a universal blueprint of the different factors or attributes that influence a woman’s sexual attraction or arousal to a man. Naturally enough, that model has received its fair share of opposition (not all of it from women, it should be noted).

Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it) reality has a way of providing plentiful evidence to back up my theories. In particular, there are numerous accounts from Christian women which completely back up my theory. One such account, a sad tale indeed, can be found here. A thoughtful reader has helpfully alerted me to yet another account that supports my model. [It should be noted that this reader lives outside of America and Europe, and has confirmed that the harms of feminism and sexual liberation are not limited to those respective regions.] The title of the article is that of this post- Tall, Dark and Handsome. I recommend reading the whole article. It shouldn’t take much time, as it isn’t a lengthy one. As you will hopefully have read, the account contained therein follows the usual pattern:

  • Good Christian Girl meets tall, dark and handsome Stranger
  • Good Christian Girl learns that the Stranger is not a Christian (or his faith is lukewarm)
  • Good Christian Girl is invited to spend time with Stranger
  • Good Christian Girl decides that spending time with him is ok, its not like anything will happen
  • Good Christian Girl discovers that she enjoys spending time with Stranger
  • Good Christian Girl starts to experience “feelings” towards Stranger
  • Good Christian Girl lies to herself about her “feelings”
  • Good Christian Girl gets invited to some event or place where she would be alone with Stranger

This is where the usual pattern is broken. Fortunately for Camerin (the authoress of the article), she had some good friends with more sense than she did. They pointed out what was going on, and managed to get her to engage in some self-reflection. In having these friends Camerin demonstrated great luck. In acting reflecting on the situation, Camerin demonstrated far more wisdom than is typical in this day and age. It would have been very easy for things to have gone quite differently for her if she had lacked either.

As this story, and the countless other ones out there, should demonstrate, Christian women are affected by the same sexual attraction/arousal attributes that secular women are. This used to be common knowledge. Sadly, that wisdom was lost all with so much else in the last few generations. Christian mothers need to impart this knowledge to their daughters as they grow up, so that their daughters stand a chance resisting the temptations of this world. And Christian women need to stop deceiving themselves that they aren’t as drawn to the Tall, Dark and Handsome man as other women are.

Before I go, I wanted to quote and highlight this little tidbit:

The next time I saw Jake was at a dinner with some friends. Jake and some of the guys told stories about stupid things they’d done while drunk. I knew they were exaggerating a bit to impress and/or shock us girls, but I still should have been turned off. But for some inexplicable reason, I was still attracted to him.

This thinking is what you get when Christian Churchian culture misleads women about their own nature. If Camerin had known about what she was really attracted to it might not have made a difference. She might not have realized what was going on until her friend forced her to confront the truth. But perhaps she might have been clued in sooner. That could only have been a good thing for her.

P.S. It should also be noted that Camerin’s account appears to contain some other manospherian memes or tropes. There is Max, “my best guy friend,” who is most likely a Beta Orbiter. And there is the delusion about what she was actually attracted to: “I also realized that most of my attraction had been to his attention and flattery.” There are probably others, if I took the time to dig into the article further.

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95 Comments

Filed under APE, Attraction, Christianity, Churchianity, LAMPS, Moral Agency, Red Pill, Temptation, Women

95 responses to “Tall, Dark And Handsome

  1. @ mdavid

    But NOT ALL women have this access, so we don’t need the disclaimer on their nature, just like we don’t need it for most men. They are immune from lack of access.

    On the contrary, the disclaimer is all the more important. Take that person and put them in an environment where they have access and you’ll be in trouble. You need to make clear that AWALT & AMALT to avoid putting them in such a situation.

  2. What happens with the surveys is that, what you said earlier, attraction is assumed. Women read the question, think of some man they are attracted to, even if he is made up and then think of all the traits they would want this attractive man to have. Also, women tend to think of marriage material when they answer these surveys, not of the man they would want to have sex with. There is no thought to what they find arousing, only what they find attractive. I don’t think it’s done on purpose, it’s just what naturally happens.

    To get to the nitty gritty of arousing, the questions would have to be worded much differently.

  3. mdavid,

    SirNemesis covered the basics of what I wanted to say. You take a traditional woman raised without access and send her to college, chances are quite high she will give in to her nature. You see stories of it all the time. Heck, that porn star girl that was all over last year was from a very conservative family I think.

    Also, AWALT is very important for the unplugged to understand. Many an unplugged man would love to hold onto hope that there truly are unicorns out there, that some women do not have this in our nature. This is dangerous. Yes, women have it in there will to not be like that. But to let men think it is anything other than our will makes it too easy for men to think they can find that unicorn and then just sit back and “be himself” and she will love him no matter what.

    As to the few women who biologically are not like that? There irrelevant. It’s more important for men to get the message of AWALT than to worry about some outliers who they are highly unlikely to be attracted to anyway. Plus, I think most people are well aware there are a few exceptions. But let’s not water down the message just for those rare few.

  4. Hank Flanders

    Stingray

    What happens with the surveys is that, what you said earlier, attraction is assumed. Women read the question, think of some man they are attracted to, even if he is made up and then think of all the traits they would want this attractive man to have.

    Yeah, but there’s still the matter of the man’s personality being prioritized more highly than his physique. It’s kind of weird for a woman to think she’s putting a higher priority on personality while at the same time having a physically attractive man in mind. That’s just counter-intuitive, but you’re probably right, nonetheless.

    Also, women tend to think of marriage material when they answer these surveys, not of the man they would want to have sex with.

    I guess, but in so doing women would be confusing what they want to be true with what is true. That is, they would want to be attracted to positive personality traits over physical ones, because they would probably be thinking this makes for better relationships (or so they’ve heard).

  5. @Sir Nemesis

    The genius of Christianity is that occasionally this tame the bad boy strategy works for believers, as Elspeth and SSM have demonstrated.

    Do you know those two men? I do not mean to impugn them; rather can you say you have enough experience with either of them to judge whether Sunshine or Elspeth’s words are true? How do you know they see what they see? If you cannot, then can you extrapolate from that ignorance truths about the genius of Christianity as it pertains to “bad boy strategies”?

    InsanityBytes2 speaks the words of a harlot. Of course, harlots know men well; especially their weaknesses. They are practiced in how to use men, how to manipulate them, how to make them unsure, how to hate them.

    So, applying some light of truth here, we can see that her most useful words are her criticisms and indictments. They are true, as Satan’s indictments that we deserve to die are true.

    But what is given as remedy is deceitful, just like that smooth-talker. Her solution is to practice more self-centeredness; to think more about yourself. Darts delivered with fiery disrespect and sarcasm.

    Are men ignorant of their own ways and motivations? Yes. Is that an impediment to seeing others clearly? Yes. Is the solution then to more self-study; particularly among the introverted? By God, no.

  6. mdavid

    Stingray, SirNemesis covered the basics of what I wanted to say. You take a traditional woman raised without access and send her to college, chances are quite high she will give in to her nature.

    LOL. Any girl sent to college without supervision is (by my prior defintion) NOT traditional. They usually marry too young anyway.

    You see stories of it all the time. Heck, that porn star girl that was all over last year was from a very conservative family I think.

    Not a conservative family, only a foolish man who thought he could be part of the world and stay immune from the ill effects. A fool.

    Also, AWALT is very important for the unplugged to understand. Many an unplugged man would love to hold onto hope that there truly are unicorns out there, that some women do not have this in our nature. This is dangerous.

    My true nature is pretty ugly, but I contstrain it with my environment. Women can be contained in the same way, and sometimes are, and this is why men can indeed get a “unicorn”. I know personally at least a dozen within extended family and friends.

    But to let men think it is anything other than our will makes it too easy for men to think they can find that unicorn and then just sit back and “be himself” and she will love him no matter what.

    I think I understand yet disagree with your (and SN’s) view. My view: Christian men should accept MGTOW as a default position in modern Sodom. But if they want something more, they should pursue only tradtiional women unexposed to the world. They exist; I know many. But the unicorn meme? It’s defeatist BS, a denial of human nature in general. There are no non-sinners, men or women. But there are quite a few decent, non-slut, religous, traditional girls who seek a traditonal man for a husband (even more foreign ones in Catholic countries who love Americans as well, just get them before Roosh…). They are not unicorns. The unicorn cry generates from people who think women should be something more than they are.

  7. “InsanityBytes2 speaks the words of a harlot. Of course, harlots know men well; especially their weaknesses. They are practiced in how to use men, how to manipulate them, how to make them unsure, how to hate them.”

    I speak words of truth to total fools. If that makes me a harlot, so be it. How to hate men?? I love men. It baffles me why you hate yourselves.

  8. “Do you know those two men? I do not mean to impugn them; rather can you say you have enough experience with either of them to judge whether Sunshine or Elspeth’s words are true? How do you know they see what they see? If you cannot, then can you extrapolate from that ignorance truths about the genius of Christianity as it pertains to “bad boy strategies”?”

    Exactly. We never do hear from the husbands, do we? We are expected to simply believe the word of a woman online, a stranger essentially. To do so years ago in these parts would have been considered nuts, but not anymore. Plus, if such wives are so excellent they should not be the ones telling the world of their excellency, their men should be or those closest to them in real life. Where is the humility and modesty, traditional feminine virtues.
    How do we know these women really tamed the bad boys? It is woman’s morally superior nature to want to think her soft, gentle, more moral nature whipped him right into shape. She wants to take credit for it rather than give God credit for it, that is if he even did change. Every woman wants to be the woman who “calms him” of “changes him”. As deti says, if it really worked we would hear about it more often, LOL, we sure would! Women would be shouting from every blog corner about how their magical, gentle nature tamed the bad boy.

    To take it further, why should we even believe Camerin and her “story” about Mr. Tall, Dark, and Handsome? This line from her I think was a major point missed—“Part of his attraction to me had undoubtedly been an unconscious attraction to Jesus in me, and I didn’t want to get in the way of that.”
    On a second read, the article comes across more as “look at me, look at me, what a good, self-controlled Christian girl I am. I am so great, in fact, Jesus just radiates from me and that is why Jake was attracted to me. I am extra great cause I stepped away from him…I didn’t want to interfere with him and God”

    “The “hope against hope that you’ll marry your superalpha and then convert him to the belief system/worldview of your choice” is never going to work for 98%+ of women. The “SSM and Elspeth did it, so I should get to do it too” strategy isn’t a viable one.”

    So based on that, say all the stories are true, then at the best this sets women up for failure, cause they leave out the one tiny detail that they were super hot, rip clothes off attracted to their men from the beginning. They tell women, just do this, that, and the other and booom–instant attraction!! All easy for them to say with superalphas, meanwhile the majority of women are not going to get men like that. Just like the majority of men are not going to get the special snowflakes.

  9. Purple Tortoise

    Donal,

    Let me offer a somewhat different interpretation of these events. First, I will note that people who do not know Christ are spiritually dead, and there can be no close fellowship between the spiritually living and the spiritually dead. Ever since I became a Christian I have found that I can hang out and have fun with unbelievers but I can only have true intimacy with believers. Carrying this over to male-female relationships, I can experience physical attraction to an unbelieving woman and I can imagine engaging in an hour of meaningless sex, but what I can’t imagine is having feelings for an unbelieving woman or any desire that she be my girlfriend or wife. Why? Her spiritual deadness would be all too apparent.

    My interpretation of the events experienced by the two women you cite in the post is not that all Christian women are like this but rather than these two women were only shallowly Christian. Jesus said we are known by our fruits, and what fruits did these women have? Getting feelings for and wanting to be in a relationship with an unbeliever? What kind of heart produces fruit like that? Not one overflowing with life in Christ. They thought they were strong, but they were weak. In fact, they were so weak that they did not recognize that getting feelings for an unbeliever was directly pointing to the poverty of their spiritual life. “Good Christian girls”? Hardly.

    Of course, one ameliorating factor is that it is unlikely that their previous religious training provided these women with much preparation for withstanding temptation and recognizing their precarious state. The true measure of our love for Christ is whether we obey His commands, as specifically revealed in Scripture. Too many churches today instead measure by religious activities and emotional experiences.

  10. Feminine But Not Feminist

    @ Igrobins

    Exactly. We never do hear from the husbands, do we? We are expected to simply believe the word of a woman online, a stranger essentially. To do so years ago in these parts would have been considered nuts, but not anymore. Plus, if such wives are so excellent they should not be the ones telling the world of their excellency, their men should be or those closest to them in real life. Where is the humility and modesty, traditional feminine virtues.
    How do we know these women really tamed the bad boys?

    Chill out. I don’t recall either Elspeth or SSM ever claiming to have “tamed their bad boys.” It’s been quite a while since I’ve read anything of SSM’s and even then I didn’t have the time to read all she said, so I could be wrong there. But I’ve read enough of Elspeth’s comments over the past several months about her relationship with SAM to see plenty of humility there. From what I can tell, she gives God far more credit for SAM becoming a Christian than she does to herself (if she even gives any credit to herself at all, which I’ve never seen her do), and SAM doesn’t sound anything like what I’m guessing you mean by “tame” to me.

    So like I said, chill out. Implying publicly that someone is lying when you have no evidence of such is gossip at best, and slander at worst.

  11. Feminine But Not Feminist

    @ Stingray

    Christian women are going to find dominant men attractive. It is what we do with that attraction that defines who we are. We have will to counter our nature. How will we use that will?

    Nothing wrong with being attracted to dominant men, nor is there anything wrong with men being dominant; it’s what God intended. Only problem is getting involved with a dominant man that uses his power for evil instead of good, rather than holding out for one that uses his power for good instead of evil. (I know you probably didn’t mean it the way it sounds, but since it did sound that way I figured I’d inject this comment).

  12. Feminine But Not Feminist

    @ Stingray

    Oops; in going back through the comments trying to find one that I read earlier today and wanted to respond to, I found where you addressed what I just replied to you yourself. So nevermind…

  13. @lgrobins & FbnF

    But I’ve read enough of Elspeth’s comments over the past several months about her relationship with SAM to see plenty of humility there. From what I can tell, she gives God far more credit for SAM becoming a Christian than she does to herself (if she even gives any credit to herself at all, which I’ve never seen her do)

    Now this is true, and I respect Elspeth. The fact remains that none of us have any idea whether:

    SAM doesn’t sound anything like what I’m guessing you mean by “tame” to me.

    is true or not. By what measure do you mean “tame”? By what measure have you decided that a man wholly unknown to you is or was a “bad boy”? By what measure did the wife mean it?

    Women who adore their husbands want to praise them (as they should), and they will choose to praise in whatever terms they decide will be best heard as praise; because the praise is the important bit to them. Whether he is a “bad boy”, “good boy” or whathaveyou is just fashion and they will dress his name in whatever is stylish to the listening crowd. As it is, “Bad boy” is the choice because Game is the new black.

  14. Feminine But Not Feminist

    About this whole AWALT/NAWALT thing between mdavid, Stingray and SirNemesis…

    A person’s environment has nothing to do with what their nature is. Someone can be raised in an environment that isn’t traditional, but still be traditional themselves, not live by the same modern dating rules as everyone around them, while seeking a traditional husband/wife/marriage without receiving any real help whatsoever from the people around them, which seems like it will take an act of God to make it actually happen (which would include many of the unmarried people found here). And someone can be raised in a very traditional environment, but not be traditional themselves. The tiniest bit of exposure to the world away from their environment will draw them away. Just look at the Amish: a lot of them leave their communities in their late teens, and they live it up partying and all and decide to never return home.

    Location is irrelevant in determining whether someone is “like that” or not: the proof is in how they actually live in either environment and what they choose for themselves. That’s why it’s pointless to think that by seeking a wife in a different country that a man will find a traditional woman. He may find more that have been raised in traditional environments, but like the Amish teenagers I mentioned, that doesn’t guarantee that those women are actually traditional. If a man believes that AWALT, then he has to believe that ***ALL*** WALT, not just all Western women not raised in a traditional environment. And if a man believes that women in traditional environments aren’t like that, then he has to be willing to believe that NAWALT period, no matter the environment she was born into.

  15. The Practical Conservative

    That was a pretty ninja comment, FBNF.

  16. FBNF,

    Exactly to both of your comments. Dominance is dominance and it is what the man does with it that defines what kind of man he is. Women are going to find that trait attractive, but same as the man, it is what we do that with attraction that defines us. Do we resist the “bad boy” or do we give in? Do we wait to try to find the dominant Christian who we both respect and find attractive? These are what I meant.

    As to your second comment, brava! That is exactly what I was trying to say. Our nature just is. How we are raised will help determine what we do with that nature and the decisions that we make, but it is still there and will always be there, just as you said.

  17. Hank,

    Women aren’t as drawn to looks as men are. They are an added bonus to be sure, but it is their dominance that draws us. So, personality and what he does with it is big.

    but in so doing women would be confusing what they want to be true with what is true.

    Women famously confuse what they want to be true with what is true everyday. It’s said we want fried ice, and it is true. We can learn to not do this and fight it, but it’s still there. And we do want to be attracted to positive personality traits, so much so that we can easily overlook the negative ones or try endlessly to change them. It is the lament of the woman who is only attracted to the “bad boy” and cannot understand why the good guy whom is right over there, whom she knows she should like, she feels nothing for.

    It’s not that we just picture good looking men; we do. It’s that we picture the movie character who is impossibly perfect outside any movie and think he could somehow be real and fall in love with us.

  18. Feminine But Not Feminist

    @ Practical Conservative and Stingray

    Thank you 🙂

  19. “What happens with the surveys is that, what you said earlier, attraction is assumed. Women read the question, think of some man they are attracted to, even if he is made up and then think of all the traits they would want this attractive man to have. Also, women tend to think of marriage material when they answer these surveys, not of the man they would want to have sex with.”

    Yeah. I think women do this because they can’t articulate, even to themselves, what they find arousing. They don’t talk about it. They can’t put it into words. They just know it when they see it.

    Also, those who can put into words what they find arousing often don’t, not even to themselves. They think it makes them look shallow, superficial and bitchy to say looks are important. They think it betrays their feminism to say they want a man to take charge in the bedroom. They don’t want to betray the “sisterhood” by saying they want a confident man who believes in himself and his own abilities. They want a confident man because they’d rather he take care of business so they don’t have to do it themselves.

  20. Hank Flanders

    Stingray

    Women aren’t as drawn to looks as men are. They are an added bonus to be sure, but it is their dominance that draws us. So, personality and what he does with it is big.

    That’s what I’ve heard, but I haven’t seen this prove to be a consistently true and reliable phenomenon in practice. What I’ve observed is that women don’t care how confident or dominant you are if you don’t meet a certain level of physical attractiveness. It seems that any confidence a man exudes during his interactions with a woman who considers that man below her level just comes off as “creepy” to the woman.

    A caveat to any of the above might be concerned with a man who is of celebrity status. Fame, even local fame, can cut through most anything in terms of attracting women, even if there’s little or no money involved. An example of this might be a well-known to the area college or high school athlete. However, I don’t believe riches in and of themselves make women attracted to you personally, although they might still help you land a woman (who wants to spend your money).

    Women famously confuse what they want to be true with what is true everyday.

    Haha, then I guess we’re in agreement. I simply have a problem with articles like the ones I linked to before, because they give (blue pill?) men false hope. They’re based on what women say, not on what women do. This truth is nothing new for us who read sphere blogs or for men who have seen the same behavior from women time and time again, but misinformation still abounds elsewhere, and it’s always the same misinformation, because it tells people what they want to hear.

    It is the lament of the woman who is only attracted to the “bad boy” and cannot understand why the good guy whom is right over there, whom she knows she should like, she feels nothing for.

    I think the “bad-boy” phenomenon is overstated or at least misunderstood. Again, do women care how bad a guy is if she considers him below her? I could be wrong, but I believe the “bad” itself is not typically the catalyst for attraction. It’s just something women will put up with, because she’s attracted to him in other ways, including and especially, looks. If I’m wrong, then wouldn’t a pale, short, skinny, balding guy, who rides a motorcycle, “lives by his own rules,” has an average or ugly face, and has tattoos get more reliable attention from the ladies than a tanned, tall, muscular guy who has nice hair, a masculine face, no tattoos, and is a law-abiding, upstanding member of the community but happens to drive a Toyota Camry? Don’t you think more women would consistently be more attracted to the latter guy than the former? Don’t you think that if the second guy were to worsen some of his behavior and become a bad boy, that he might be able to still attract women but that his behavior itself would not be the cause for the attraction?

    It’s that we picture the movie character who is impossibly perfect outside any movie and think he could somehow be real and fall in love with us.

    I’m not sure if you’re just talking about good looking men or not here, but I’ve heard that physically speaking, Robert Pattinson isn’t that great looking but that women are drawn to him because of the character he plays Twilight. In other words, they’ve gotten to know him through watching several hours of him or more accurately, they at least think they have.

    While a character and the situations in which that character finds himself all just make up an elaborate fantasy, I still think a lesson can be learned from the Pattinson scenario. Taking the time to get to know someone (for real) and not writing them off as “creepy,” simply because they’re not good looking enough at first glance could help both men and women. Truly inconsequential flaws could become less important if people would give others a chance and get to know them. The problem I see is that women’s bars are too high to even get to know someone they find unattractive, let alone date them or marry them.

    Interestingly, and this is just a side note, I’ve heard the character who plays Mike, Bella’s lonely, nice guy friend from school described as “creepy” by connoisseurs of the Twilight series. Apparently, simply being a loser is creepier than being a werewolf or a vampire.

  21. Hank, This is all difficult to explain. Let me give it a shot. Attraction, or rather arousal triggers are on a sliding scale for women. If you are lacking in looks but are highly dominant, then usually the dominance is going to win out. There will be exceptions. Namely, if his dominance, looks and other factors still make his SMV lower than her own. The problem is that a whole lot of women have falsely inflated their own SMV today so it confuses things.

    Giving blue pill men false hope is a bane that needs to be fought. Making this problem worse is that blue pill men will understandably search out for this hope and easily find it.

    Bad typically describes the man who simply doesn’t care what many or most of societies written and/or unwritten rules are. This man is often highly attractive because of this. He has his own rules and doesn’t care what others think. Now, where it gets confusing, is that often these men can more objectively be good or bad in a moral sense. Murderer = bad but women still find him attractive. Christian who is highly dominant and still doesn’t follow many of societies rules, but follows Christian rules = good and also highly attractive. It must be noted that it is NOT his Christianity that women find attractive. For a Christian woman, Christianity is marriage material, NOT arousal material. It is his drive to follow his own course and throw off societies rules that are arousing.

    Now as to your tall muscular guy vs. skinny guy. I’ve seen tall muscular guys who are not sure of themselves get blown off by women and skinny dominant guys get the girl. A whole lot of this still has to do with the woman’s own SMV and if she perceives the man’s to be higher than her own. If the skinny guy’s is higher and the buff guy’s lower, she will be more attracted to the skinny guy. Caveat, she will visually notice the buff guy first, but he can blow that initial look quite quickly with his personality.

    I agree wholeheartedly that men and women spending more time to get to know someone can make a huge difference. Privateman challenged women to do this with very good results. The problem is, women aren’t moved to do that today because they don’t have to to get sex. It is when they want marriage that they are moved to and often, it is then too late for them to find and marry the man they wish they could (and too often, they still don’t really bother with it).

  22. Novaseeker

    Women aren’t as drawn to looks as men are. They are an added bonus to be sure, but it is their dominance that draws us. So, personality and what he does with it is big.

    There’s truth to this, but it isn’t as true as it used to be, and it seems to be a bit of a moving target, and it varies by where you are located.

    I realize that in the PSALM model, athleticism and looks, which are two aspects of that element, are placed below power and status, but I think that this varies a lot by individual woman, and that the trend of A and L is moving up in importance as women advance in P and S themselves. There’s a reason why the “sporno” look, coupled together with the “lift and bang” approach to life, has become a thing in many of the coastal metros. Women are responsive to it, in terms of arousal/sexual attraction. It’s possible to screw that up with poor P and S ratings, but it does seem that women are increasingly emphasizing A and L as well. Again, this is more pronounced in some places (e.g., LA, Miami, etc.) than it is in others, but overall, these aspects are becoming more prominent rather than less prominent, in terms of mate selection for women in the most competitive coastal markets.

    ====

    I think in terms of surveys, it’s as with everything else in the area — when responding to these kinds of questions, women assume that you are talking about (1) “men in the erotic/romantic sense”, and not (2) “men in general”. This is important because group (1) is obviously much smaller than group (2). The questions don’t seem to make sense to apply to group (2), for women, because these men are not even on the radar screen in a sexual/romantic way, so it doesn’t compute to apply the question to that set. The question is only applied to the relevant set, which is the typically small set in group (1). I don’t think women do this in a way that is calculated or deliberately exclusive, but rather automatically, because group (2) has no intersection, in their minds, with these kinds of questions at all. It just doesn’t compute.

    =====

    He may find more that have been raised in traditional environments, but like the Amish teenagers I mentioned, that doesn’t guarantee that those women are actually traditional. If a man believes that AWALT, then he has to believe that ***ALL*** WALT, not just all Western women not raised in a traditional environment. And if a man believes that women in traditional environments aren’t like that, then he has to be willing to believe that NAWALT period, no matter the environment she was born into.

    This is true. The idea of escaping “the problem” by marrying a woman from a traditional society is rather overblown. In fact, in many cases, you are picking from women who are a self-selected group in that they want *out* of their traditional society, which means they aren’t very traditionally minded. If a man wants to take this approach, what he needs to do is permanently expatriate and live permanently in the traditional society, where the externally imposed restraints (social, legal, cultural) hem in how untraditional women can feasibly behave in such places, even if they are not personally inclined to behave traditionally. Of course that kind of permanent expatriation can be difficult for many man to even contemplate doing, and hard to pull off in a satisfying way even for men who temperamentally well-suited to being permanent expatriates and essentially abandoning life in the West wholesale. But if you are trying to work the foreign women angle, it’s a much better approach than trying to import someone to the West — that’s a big risk, I think.

  23. Hank Flanders

    insanitybtes22

    I speak words of truth to total fools.

    I’ve personally asked you two questions, and I don’t see that you’ve answered them, but please correct me if I’m wrong. A good speaker tends to take questions and try to answer them the best way he or she can. I agree that calling someone’s words those of a harlot is uncalled for, especially when I haven’t even seen much evidence of it myself, but then, I think calling people fools typically is, too.

  24. mdavid

    My personal experience contradicts much of what I read here by Nova, Sting, PC, even FBNF.

    1) I know many successful marriages to good women. No unicorns. All are traditional, religious, family focused. None work outside the home. Some are from other countries (in their countries economics is harder and the US is a great opportunity to have a big family).

    2) The largest correlator I’ve seen for good women is traditionalism, IQ, and orgainized religion (all spurn the American individualistic religious mindset).

    3) All the foreign women married to American men I know are more tradtional than the American ones (and more feminine). Even girls from Norway/Germany. American men don’t know how bad things have gotten here (I happened to marry American Irish, but that was nearly 20 ya). Never believe a woman who warns about foreign women as they fear and hate the competition; American men do very well overseas. No lie.

    4) No woman is perfect. All women are sinners. Marriage in America is dangerous and should only be entered into with extreme trepidation. Men who think marriage is easy are fools. So improve the odds and never marry her unless she is traditional. It works. No unicorns here; I personally know 10 married women with over 50 kids combined. There will be zero divorces among them.

  25. Hank Flanders

    Stingray

    I’ve seen tall muscular guys who are not sure of themselves get blown off by women and skinny dominant guys get the girl.

    I’ve seen this happen, too, and it still sticks out in my mind even though it occurred 10 years ago, because of how rarely I’ve seen it.

    Christian who is highly dominant and still doesn’t follow many of societies rules, but follows Christian rules = good and also highly attractive.

    What might be some examples of this? After all, we’re called to obey the laws of the land, which I know are not necessarily the same as societal rules, but we’re also called to love each other, meaning we’re not supposed to be rude or mean to our neighbors. I’m sure you’re implying that anybody mean or rude, so exactly would be good examples of what you’re talking about?

  26. Hank Flanders

    *I’m sure you’re not implying that anybody be mean or rude…

  27. mdavid,

    You are arguing NAWALT from women’s actions and I am arguing AWALT from their nature. We aren’t at odds. My beef with NAWALT is that blue pill inclined men will truly think they have found a woman with a different nature. They do not exist.

  28. What might be some examples of this?

    Simply telling a woman, No or telling her that she is wrong is one way to do this today. There are tons of small examples, I remember commenter Ton once said that women found it exciting that he didn’t wear a motorcycle helmet. Own and avidly shooting. Not backing down when you know you are right. When in a group and regular talking points come up, not just sitting back and agreeing, but arguing you case and doing it well. Almost everything that goes against the crowd. Keep in mind, that it very much matters how any of these things are delivered. That is where you here about frame in Game circles. Frame matters.

  29. Hank Flanders

    OK, thanks, Stingray.

  30. It should also be added what a terrible disservice it is to women themselves to let them think it is in their nature to be perfect princesses. We are anything but. However, as God’s creatures, we can fight our temptations and also learn to use what is good in our nature to love.

  31. I won’t say much here. A little too close to home for me, especially in the years from 16-23 and 29-37. (Before first marriage and in between marriages). Tough to hear, buddy but good stuff.

  32. Feminine But Not Feminist

    @ mdavid

    I’m not warning against foreign women; I’m warning against the assumption (or more accurately – desperate fantasy/wish) that men (oftentimes desperate ones looking for some hope to hold onto) that if a woman is foreign that she is automatically going to be traditional, submissive, etc. when that isn’t always the case.

    My experiences don’t match up with yours. I have a cousin that married an asian girl (born and raised there) who, after securing her American citizenship, divorced him. She said she never loved him and that he could do nothing to change his mind. She was as much a feminist as many women in the west: she wouldn’t have any kids with him, claiming she didn’t want to lose her girlish figure and that she wanted to be taken care of rather than to be the one to care for someone else. She wouldn’t do much cooking, because she said it’s the man’s job to do that (her Dad does the cooking in her parent’s house). She had career aspirations rather than homemaking ones. Does that sound traditional to you?

    I once met two women that had been born and raised in Poland (sisters, who had married American brothers several years before). Guess what? They were badmouthing their husbands just as much as the average American born wife. Is that traditional?

    It baffles me that so many supposedly red pill men are still so blue pill when it comes to foreign women, in that they think foreign women are immune to the problems that are talked about regarding women in general. I’m not saying that it’s a bad thing to marry a foreign woman; I’m saying that if a man goes that route, he needs to use the same caution and discernment that he would use with American women. I don’t doubt your experiences mdavid – I ask that you consider mine just as valid as yours. Plus, are these women you are talking about currently living in your traditional community? If so, then that supports what Novaseeker said.

  33. Feminine But Not Feminist

    Ack, just reread my comment to make sure I didn’t miss anything earlier and found a typo: “he could do nothing to change his mind” should read “he could do nothing to change HER mind.”

  34. Feminine But Not Feminist

    To get back on topic…

    About this part: And there is the delusion about what she was actually attracted to: “I also realized that most of my attraction had been to his attention and flattery.”

    I think what she means is that most of why she kept deluding herself into thinking that it would be harmless to keep spending time with Jake is because she was enjoying the attention and flattery that Jake was giving her (which she wasn’t used to getting, according to her article); not so much that the reason she was drawn to Jake was because of the attention and flattery. I don’t think she means the same thing by “attracted” as people here mean it (same with most people who aren’t familiar with red pill memes), which should be considered when reading her account.

  35. Random Angeleno

    @Hank, I see a considerable desire on your part to apply male logic to female responses. You see what there is to see about how women go about saying certain things in a survey that aren’t quite who they are, and wanting to apply male logic to that.

    @mdavid, where did those girls grow up? Were they homeschooled? For sure they were kept sheltered and strongly trained to accept their roles. Stingray is not wrong about their natures had they not been trained so well. One more thing, they may as well be unicorns to me as the available ones simply don’t exist near me. There is no TLM, FSSP, anything remotely close to that around here. So I’m stuck with what I see around here and it doesn’t look good. So I date outside of the Church.

  36. mdavid

    SR, FBNF: I agree women are still women (and sinners) no matter what country. Any man who thinks otherwise is merely a fool and will marry badly anyway. That’s Darwinian. She has got to be humble and organized religous. Period.

    But a man greatly improves his odds overseas. These women are on average thinner, less spoiled, more feminine. Plus an American who speaks her language is hot (if she ever stops practicing her English on him!).

    FBNF, how many marriage train wrecks have you seen where the woman is a) foreign and b) seriously Catholic, and c) she wants a large family?

    RA, I agree quality women (and men) get rarer every day. That’s why I would accept MGTOW or head overseas (to increase the selection pool). Any religious man who thinks getting married well circa 2015 will “just happen” is nuts. It’s a war zone. It takes time, money, and aggression. And still expect failure plus discarding 50 women for every potential. That’s a lot of social life, a lot of NEXTing.

  37. Hank Flanders

    Random Angeleno

    @Hank, I see a considerable desire on your part to apply male logic to female responses. You see what there is to see about how women go about saying certain things in a survey that aren’t quite who they are, and wanting to apply male logic to that.

    Do you mean the kind of logic that desires for people to mean what they say and say what they mean? If so, then you’re probably right. 😉 However, I and I’m sure plenty of others who read these blogs are well aware that what a woman says she wants and what she responds to are two different things. I simply take issue with the fact that the stories and surveys, which are full of what I view as misinformation are specifically targeted at the very people who are naturally going to apply male logic to it. Surely, the researchers and journalists know this fact, yes?

  38. Feminine But Not Feminist

    @ mdavid

    I agree women are still women (and sinners) no matter what country. Any man who thinks otherwise is merely a fool and will marry badly anyway. That’s Darwinian. She has got to be humble and organized religous. Period.

    Good, I’m glad you recognize this. You had me worried there. The majority of men who talk about how great foreign women are don’t seem to understand this (or at least, they don’t seem to WANT to understand it).

    But a man greatly improves his odds overseas. These women are on average thinner, less spoiled, more feminine.

    That’s a good start. The question is though – is that because of societal pressure to be that way, or because of a genuine desire to be that way on her own? And if she’s brought back to the US where society has other pressures waiting for her, how long before she follows “the herd” and becomes like the women around her? Only those who are already more traditional and feminine by their own nature and/or choice will remain that way after being brought here (and there would be very few, as evidenced by the very few women already here that choose to be that way). Those that simply follow societal cues (i.e. most of them) would cave to feminist sensibilities, unless they are brought back to live in isolation and/or in very traditional communities (such as yours). But most men who seek to find a foreign bride don’t live in such communities. In order for those men to be successful in this, they would actually have to permanently relocate to the foreign country where he intends to find his bride, or he would have to integrate into a traditional community here somewhere. Living out in the mainstream after marrying her won’t be any better for him in most cases.

    FBNF, how many marriage train wrecks have you seen where the woman is a) foreign and b) seriously Catholic, and c) she wants a large family?

    I’ve never met a foreigner who was a Catholic, and most weren’t even religious. So I can’t actually give you an answer to this question. But what I can say is that if you take “foriegn” out of that list, then the women who are seriously Catholic and want a large family have what it takes to avoid being part of a marriage train wreck, just as much as the foreign women who are seriously Catholic and want large families do. The foreign part alone won’t do it. So, in order to make the “you should seek to marry a foriegn woman if you want a traditional marriage” thing accurate, it should go more like this: “If you want a good traditional marriage that won’t blow up in your face, then you need to find a traditional Catholic woman who is feminine and wants to have a large family (plus whatever). The odds of finding one are better in some other countries due to societal standards for women. If you’re willing to relocate to a more traditional environment, then you have a better chance of her staying that way. Just remember to evaluate her carefully either way, just to be safe.”

    The emphasis on her other traits is important because the failure to do so is going to give the impression that it’s just the foreign part that is important, when that isn’t it at all. It leaves out a ton of the important information needed to make a good choice, which will end very badly if the man doesn’t consider those things. Hopefully that makes sense. To bring it back to attraction (and this post); it gives men who otherwise can’t attract a woman the false hope that foreign women will be different in that they will surely be different than Western women and will be attracted to them, and will marry them, and stay with them forever and ever, etc.

  39. Sorry for the lack of activity on my part. I’ve been rather busy at work, and so have had the blog on the back-burner. Sadly, that will probably continue through next week.

  40. mdavid

    FBNF, I agree with you except one thing. US women who fit the qualifications are so scarce today most US men have given up on marriage. They need more (and better) hunting grounds.

    Six reasons foreign girls increase his odds: thinner, lower expectations about men (many foreign men treat women like dirt), less feminist, many love “American”, many are more needful of resources, many value traditional men more.

    But say I’m wrong. It doesn’t hurt his chances with American girls to learn a new language, meet new people, and have cool experiences…and add 50 overseas girls into one’s dating stable. Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

  41. Feminine But Not Feminist

    @ mdavid

    I’m not saying that men should not consider finding a foreign bride as an option. If that’s what a man has to do because he can’t find a decent woman who will marry him here, and he seeks to expand his options, then by all means he should do what he’s gotta do. I see nothing wrong with that; and if a good man can find and marry a good woman (no matter what country she hails from) then I’m gonna be thrilled for him. I’m also not denying that he will have better pickings in certain other cultures where the women are not given free reign like we are over here (as long as he keeps her in such a culture).

    What I am saying is that if a man does go that route, then he needs to be just as careful when considering a foreign woman as he would be when considering an American one, because female nature is just as much female nature with foreign women as it is with American women. Basically, he needs to be smart and realistic about it rather than pedestalizing foreign women, most of whom are behaving the way their society expects/rewards them to. And that anyone who advises other men to go that route need to do so carefully and responsibly, so as not to give those men false expectations.

    I’m starting to think that you and I are talking past each other. That we mostly agree on the concept, but are using different words.

  42. The Practical Conservative

    If foreign men are so terrible, what does that say about the traditional nature of the societies those foreign women are coming out of? I mean, mdavid’s arguments really do sound like “these women are poor and desperate, and this is better because a desperate woman willing to leave her entire society and culture and language behind for material gains is uber traditional!”

  43. mdavid

    FBNF I absolutely agree with everything you say. Nobody I know with a room temp IQ disagrees with you. Men dummies are doomed with women anyway, so why not have his doom exotic? It’s what you don’t say that I think needs highlighting, which is that many men don’t know is how bad US women are in comparision. They should find out. American men have serious preselection overseas.

    TPC, why don’t you address me directly? Passive agressive, anyone? (Guys if you had any doubt note the feminist angst for foreign competition, read TPC above).

    To answer: foreign cultures are simply more alpha and don’t let their women run rabid. Next, they don’t deliver beta bucks like American men (which is important for the Christian trad; this concept is an intellectual weakness for the “game world” of Roissy, Rollo, and Roosh who are not into religion nor family where BB matters). If gamers like Roosh slay sluts overseas, imagine how an American Christian with alpha qualities fares with chaste Christian girls? Intrestingly, the only problem I’ve seen is that American men are too nice for foreign girls, but this can be fixed witha dose of alpha.

  44. Being an American in many foreign countries gives a status boost. The same basic male/female dynamic exists as everywhere else obviously, but Americans find themselves higher in the social hierarchy by default. It’s kind of like being born into a wealthy family. Also more women in a lot of places have a default assumption of looking up to men which creates a positive feedback loop for men. America’s positive feedback loop is much weaker.

  45. The Practical Conservative

    mdavid, I’m a black woman interracially married to a Nordic man. I am the “foreign” competition, to many (although we’re both Americans, so “it’s complicated”) . I directly referred to you in my comment, if using your comment-handle isn’t direct enough, then nothing can be direct enough. You straight up said “more needful of resources (i.e. poverty)”. And saying foreign men are “more alpha” to justify their being bad to their women is a pretty poor saving throw.

    Foreign marriage in the context you’re presenting is hardly healthy-traditional or conservative. It’s just exploitation on both sides, male and female. It is a form of traditional, as men from wealthy lands have always in small numbers gone to cheaper places to get desperate women to take to wife, but it’s not healthy or something to promote just because sinners gonna sin.

    I know a fair number of men married to foreign women, but it’s healthy inter-cultural and inter-ethnic marriage. They met the women through normal means (friends, church, work, family) and didn’t travel specifically to secure a wife who was willing to throw away her whole culture for a bit of cash in hand.

    Disagreement because of differing experience/knowledge is not insecurity or “feeling threatened”. Claiming such is “projection”, fyi.

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