This post is a continuation of my series on attraction. The most recent post in the series can be found here, and the first can be found here. Today’s post is going to focus on a specific feature of female attraction, commonly referred to as “Hypergamy.” This post is by no means meant to be exhaustive- there is a lot to cover and I won’t attempt to do so in this single post.
An Inaccurate Name for an Accurate Observation
Merriam-Webster defines Hypergamy as “marriage into an equal or higher caste or social group.” For anyone familiar with how hypergamy is used in the ‘sphere, you will realize that this definition is not what most people mean when they use that particular word. In fact, it is hardly ever used in conjunction with castes or social groups. Unsurprisingly, this trips more than a few people up. Those individuals who come across this part of the ‘net, and who upon seeing the word “Hypergamy” look it up, will quickly become confused. This often leads some people (mostly but not always women) to reject any “Red Pill” concepts which are connected with hypergamy.
Here is an example of a post where a woman “rejects” hypergamy. A quick review of her post will reveal that she has a better understanding of the subject than most who come to that conclusion. She knows that it is about more than just “marrying up” to a higher social group. However, her understanding is still imperfect (more might be said about her post but I’m keeping this narrowly focused here). To help her out, and to help out anyone else whose knowledge of this area is lacking, I will (try to) explain what “Hypergamy,” as used in the ‘sphere, actually means.
The thing to understand is that hypergamy is not about “marrying up.” And by that I mean its not about marrying, and not necessarily about “up” in a social status sense. No, hypergamy is about maximization.
Hypergamy means the female drive to maximize a woman’s access to a man, or men, who can meet her demand for the best genetics, provision and protection possible.
This “drive” breaks down into two specific drives, both of which can be (and often are) independent of one another. As Rollo has explained in the past (and I’m sure he can include a post or two in the comments below as examples), women want “Good Genes” and “Good Dads.” In other words, they have a drive to mate with a man with the best perceived genes, which will be passed on to their children. And they have a drive to secure or “lock down” or get “commitment” from a man who they perceive will be the best possible “dad.” Such a man will protect and provide for a woman and her children. Arousal (or sexual attraction) is tied to “good genes”, and (non-sexual) attraction is tied to being a “good dad.” Often, attraction and a man’s skills or ability as a provider/protector are tied to his social status, but not always.
The female ideal is to get both “needs” met in the same package. Essentially, a man with (perceived) good genetics who will also stick around and care for the woman and her children. However, it is not common (at least in this day and age) to find a man with both sets of qualities. And its even rarer to find that kind of man who is free and is interested in settling down. This is where things get more complicated.
You see, women are more than willing and able to seek out different men to meet each individual “need.” In fact, I would argue that women who cannot get both in the same man will naturally employ this strategy unless they are reared not to. This strategy entails sleeping with men with (perceived) good genes, and then trying to get men who are perceived as good providers/protectors to take care of them. It is called by some “AF/BB”, or “Alpha F—s, Beta Bucks.” Potiphar’s wife, whom I mentioned in my latest Sunday Scriptures post, was likely trying to employ this strategy. Bathsheba, on the other hand, was (assuming she was trying to get David’s attention) trying to get David to carry out a “relationship coup”- that is, to remove Uriah from the picture so that she could marry David. David, after all, was an upgrade from Uriah as far as both drives were concerned.
My suspicion, which seems borne out by evidence all around us, is that women primarily focus on “good genes” when they are younger, and as they get older and have children, “good dads” take preeminence (Rollo refers to this as the Epiphany phase). This, along with some things I will explain in the next few paragraphs, will explain why a stable-hand might draw the attention that a banker doesn’t.
Now, I’ve used “perceived” at several points in the last few paragraphs because it isn’t always clear which men have “good genes” and which men would be “good dads.” Usually the latter is easier to figure out than the former. Women use various shortcuts to try and determine how well a man rates on both. The primary tool that women use to determine “Good Genes” (aka, arousal) is a man’s LAMPS/PSALM score. The higher a man ranks in LAMPS value, the more sexually attractive he is to women and the more he will arouse them. The stable-boy, who is somewhat mocked in the post linked above, is an example of a man whose LAMPS score is high, at least compared to the banker. The banker’s decent Status value helps him, but if he has a lower Power value then it doesn’t matter, ultimately. Likewise, the reference to rogues and pirates all showcase men with high LAMPS scores, primarily focused on the Power attribute. These are all men who can arouse women, and since young women are primarily looking for arousal (rather than non-sexual attraction), that is why they garner such attention.
Something else tied to all of this is the behavior of “trading up.” This is a natural outgrowth of the drive to maximize access to “good genes” and “good dad” in a man. If a better man is found, then women will subconsciously want to “trade up.” That they don’t all the time is because of a number of factions: socializing, a sense of morality, a lack of opportunity and social penalties. Investing in a man over time can also reduce this likelihood. Remove these and women will often leap at a chance to trade up. Only, their idea of trading up may vary, depending on what particular drive they are trying to maximize at the time. Also, their perceptions of what constitutes “higher value” may not always be crystal clear.
One additional note: hypergamy is one drive among many that women possess. Albeit a powerful drive. But for women who are raised properly, its nastier effects can be limited, or even controlled. Unfortunately this is no longer the case for most modern women.
Hopefully this provided at least a half-way understandable explanation of hypergamy, as it is used by people in the ‘sphere. It is an inaccurate use of a word, that much I will grant. A better term needs to be invented, I think, to really encompass everything that falls under this umbrella. But until then hypergamy remains an inaccurate name for an accurate observation of female behavior.
Good Enough v. The Best
As mentioned above, hypergamy is about maximization and a desire for the best. Its arousal component means that a woman will be drawn, sexually, to the men around her who she perceives as meeting her drive’s demand for “good genes.” More specifically, she will be drawn to the best among them- those men with the highest LAMPS values. However, this isn’t the only behavior in play.
Women also have what is called an “Attraction floor,” which is a point below which they won’t consider a man as a viable sexual partner. This means that in a population where none of the men are above this point, women won’t be able to satisfy their “good genes” hypergasmic impulse (that one never gets old). If they do pick a man, it won’t be based on arousal. Rather, it will be based on his being perceived as a “good dad” candidate, aka, (non-sexual) attraction. There is no guarantee that they will pick such men; some women would rather do without (just as some men will choose to do without if they can’t find any candidates they consider acceptable/worthy).
What this means for a man is that he needs to make sure that he isn’t simply the best. He also needs to be sure that he is above a woman’s attraction floor. The problem is that there is no clear indication where this floor is. The fluid nature of the LAMPS model makes it difficult to pinpoint values. Furthermore, each women values each attribute somewhat differently, and also has her own floor for that matter. All of which makes it next to impossible to know where this floor is. It is much easier, on the other hand, to know where it isn’t. If a man arouses a woman, he is above the floor. If he doesn’t, then he is likely below it. Consequently, a man should always endeavor to build his LAMPS values as high as possible, to ensure that he is not only the best, but that he is good enough as well.
Toxic Hypergamy
One subject that comes up from time to time around these parts is Toxic Hypergamy. This refers to the notion that some women’s hypergamy “filter” has become so warped that they can no longer (realistically) meet it their hypergamic requirements. In other words, what they find acceptable or worthy in a man is at such a high level so as to be unattainable by all but a few men (or in extreme cases no man alive could ever be acceptable). Naturally enough, there aren’t enough of these men to go around. And often such men won’t have anything to do with women exhibiting this behavior. Further, the women who have this often aren’t high enough value themselves to justify having such standards. In many (most?) instances they are often quite bad at estimating their own SMV.
Toxic Hypergamy seems to be especially prevalent in Christian circles. More than a few posters and commenters around these parts can attest to personal stories of Western Christian women who demonstrated this particular condition. EAPs, or Entitled American Princesses, often have Toxic Hypergamy, and can turn down countless men while they wait for a “worthy” man to show up. This has only exacerbated the problems inherent in the American Church.
What I find interesting about this phenomenon is that it serves as further demonstration that a woman’s hypergamy can be influenced by her surroundings and by how she was raised. In the present age this is a cause of sorrow. But at the same time there is some hope for the future. Parents who raise their daughters right, either now or in the future, can account for this and hopefully take steps to help their daughters rein in their hypergamic instincts.
A Debased Currency
Rollo’s post Loyalty & Hypergamy is an article that I think some of my male readers would find illuminating (I guess women might find it interesting, but it is less likely to be illuminating for them, and would be a difficult read). It delves a bit into the concept of loyalty and how that intersects a bit with hypergamy.
@ mdavid
I didn’t realize that multiple people used your account. I would ask that whomever uses the account ID him or herself, to help out other readers/commenters. Also, if your children use it, I want them to seek permission for their comments if possible (assuming they are still minors).
For the record, I do not agree with Deti’s assertion about demonstrating sexual attractiveness.
Tradcon women have turned this blog as well into a cesspool.
[DG: I disagree. Female commenters serve as an effective tool for educating men about how women think. More than a few men have benefited from observing female interactions on this blog. As a classroom instrument, their input is quite valuable.]
@ Elspeth
I must confess, I am most curious what exactly you think that lifelong Christian men think.
I must confess, I am most curious what exactly you think that lifelong Christian men think.
I’ll drop you a line and you can do with it whatever you wish.
Practical
Your statements regarding what “normal” women find attractive are nothing short of ridiculous. (What’s “normal”?)
Your claims that women are sexually attracted to loyal, stable men? That’s ludicrous. With all due respect, you have not even the slightest idea what you’re talking about. If it is true that “normal” women are attracted to loyal, stable men with jobs, then why are “normal” women and women of all kinds divorcing those men in droves? Why do we have a 50% divorce rate? Why is there a 38% divorce rate among professing Christians? Why is there a 25% divorce rate among Roman Catholics?
And let’s leave aside marriage. If your statement is true that women all over the place are just dying to have sex with Eddie Steadyman, then why are there so many Eddie Steadymans all over the place talking about the fact that they can’t get dates? Why so many good men in church who can’t get dates and in fact get REPORTED TO THEIR PASTORS for asking women out at church?
These guys work jobs, they have “normal” interests, they wouldn’t hurt a flea, they don’t fart or pick their noses in public, and they don’t smell bad. And these so-called “normal” women (whatever that means) you’re talking about IGNORE these men.
I have absolutely NO idea what fantasy world you live in, but in the world I inhabit, these men get NOTHING. The guys who get interest are guys like SAM, like SSM’s husband. Those are the men the women want.
jack:
actually, I really don’t think most women can describe what they find sexually attractive.
When you ask a woman what she finds sexually attractive, the description you get ASSUMES sexual attractiveness and then goes on to describe how she wants that sexually attractive man to act towards her. She wants Harley McBadboy to get a job, to support her financially, to be nice to her (and be an ass to everyone else), and to be stable and predictable (i.e., offer his all to her and for her).
I think women know what kinds of men they want to have sex with and I think they can articulate it. They don’t want to articulate it because (1) they fear others’ judgment for accurately describing it; and (2) when they do describe it it scares the hell out of them, because they had no conscious idea they were capable of such depravity. Witness a couple of years ago the Elspeth/SSM exchanges regarding thugalicious Aaron Hernandez — they found him sexually attractive, but were embarrassed about giggling like junior high school girls at his hawtness.
“Practical’s” advice of be loyal, be stable, don’t be slovenly — that advice is lethal to men’s dating and sex lives. I was given that advice and used it.
That advice cost me relationships, prevented other relationships, prevented me from seeing IOIs, very nearly destroyed my marriage, and almost destroyed the lives of my children. I am STILL dealing with the fallout from “be loyal, be stable, be nice, show that you’ll stick around”, and will be for years to come.
Thanks for nothing.
@FBNF re AFBB
The average career woman considers her job a “play-time activity” (to find the best phrase I can think of). It’s something she doesn’t need to do and can quit at a moment’s notice if she desires. The average woman finds it far preferable to find a man who she can utilize as her provider/protector tool than to actually work for a living. Hence, she can find a man and as long as he continues to function in such a fashion, she will marry him.
Remember (cogent to most of the rest of the comments) as well that sexual attractiveness and provision are mutually exclusive goals that can not fully exist together. Therefore you get the differences in what is considered “attractive” out of women – she only relays qualities that are good for her end goal with men. (along with a whole host of other “issues”)
Even when a woman continues working, she takes the typical “what’s mine is mine and what’s his is mine” attitude of traditional feminism. His salary is for paying the bills on the house, cars, food, utilities, taking care of the kids, and so forth. Her salary is for what SHE wants – her clothes, going out with the girls, and so on.
You’re not mistaken (at least in a worldly sense). “Beta Bucks” is about provisioning outside of the man himself (things, social status, etc).
@Practical
Maybe in Happy-Land in that gumdrop house on Lollipop Lane…but not in the real world.
“Showing that you stick around for your traditional commitments, that you are loyal to your family and clan, and that you aren’t so spiritually unhealthy that you feel oppressed by bathing regularly (I didn’t say dress well, just make an effort, subtle but important difference) is sexually interesting to most women”
What? Is this some kind of a joke?
So, you’re saying that MOST (meaning more than 50%) women get the tingles for men who hold down jobs, go to church, go see their moms every so often, and take showers?
Are you serious?
What planet are you from?
Practical, I’ve seen “most” women, including ones of the kind you’re talking about, reject such men just before climbing on the back of Harley McBadboy’s motorcycle. I’ve seen women I attended church with complain about their drug addled boyfriends who are just “misunderstood”. I’ve seen “good Christian women” lose their virginities to good looking college guys and law students. Do not tell me that it’s only the sluts and whores having sex with these men, because it isn’t, not by any stretch of the imagination.
“And it’s sexually interesting because the very trait that leads women to want government jobs and other forms of consistency and comfort also plays into their sexual tastes.”
What? So, women want to have sex with men who make them comfortable above all else?
This has to be a joke. I do appreciate your input, but it just doesn’t line up with any sort of reality or real world experience I and many, many other men have had.
Deti,
Please cease from implying thay my husband has not been loyal, faithful or stuck around. He has without question been a wonderful husband to me. Faithful all 21 years because that is who he is.
I felt compelled to say so because you continually lump him in with SSM’s husband and fromwhat I recall our marriage experiences have been vastly different.
I won’t try to pretend that my husband or our marriage is typical because it isn’t, but I have been accusef of turning Donal’s blog into a “cesspool” based mostly on your insisting on dragging the words “SAM and SSM’s husband” into every conversation, even when it is unnecessary.
Elspeth:
I in absolutely no way, shape manner or form said or implied that SAM has not been loyal to you, that he has not been faithful, or that he has not stuck around. By your description he has been nothing short of an exemplary husband to you and has lived a life above reproach during his marriage to you.
I implied nothing; you inferred what you wrote in your paragraph.
Anyway, you are missing the point. The point I want the men to get from my descriptions is that SAM is sexually attractive. By your own descriptions of him, he has a proven premarital track record of women wanting to have sex with him, and having sex with him. By your own descriptions of him, you were and are so incredibly sexually attracted to him you can barely stand it. By your own descriptions of him, he has a “beautiful visage”. By your own descriptions of him, he is competent, confident, dominant, is head of his house, and has your undying love, respect and affection. I can only conclude that if a man wants to keep his marriage together, he needs to do what SAM did, do what SAM does, and be what SAM is.
And, the point is, that a man’s sexual attractiveness is the only thing that keeps a woman with a man in today’s SMP. To get married and stay married, a man MUST be sexually attractive, not only to his wife, but in general. He must have and display one or more sexually attractive traits. He needs to do this just to keep his wife from destroying his marriage.
With regard to SSM’s husband – I grouped him in with SAM because he has many of the same traits – he has a proven track record of being able to have sex with a lot of women. He is sexually attractive. In the past, by SSM’s descriptions, he acted on it inappropriately. That is NOT THE POINT. The point is that HE IS SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE.
The point is that if a man wants to keep a marriage together, he MUST be sexually attractive to his wife. A man must be sexually attractive throughout the life of his marriage to a woman if he is to have any hope whatsoever of keeping that marriage together, if for no other reason than to prevent the utter destruction of his children’s lives.
And discussing SAM and SSM’s husband is useful, because they are men who have kept marriages together BECAUSE THEY ARE SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE.
Nothing gonna fix this but a tidal wave of spinsterism.
The key is not to try and fix the women, but to fix the system that permits them to nourish their unfettered maximization impulses.
Increasing social consequences, strategic slut-shaming, refusing to become a wage mule, all these things will help – in time. There is no quick fix. It is probably too late for at least one or two generations of men.
And I didn’t know that some Christian women were getting giddyTingles over Aaron Hernandez. How disappointing.
Deti: My point is that women don’t even want to admit to themselves what they find arousing. So they lie to themselves, and their girlfriends, and the men around them, as they desperately try to convince themselves (and others) that they crave honest and upright men.
But once in a while, the mask drops, and that is what you saw with regard to the “giggling about Hernandez”. They work so hard to deceive themselves about their attraction triggers that they experience the momentary truth with fair dose of surprise.
SOMETIMES Christian women end up being the most morally crippled of all women, due to them mixing “Jesus loves me” with “grrrl power!!!”.
I would not surprise me if some Christian romance writer is working on a knockoff of 50 shades of grey.
And the main reason for my assertion about SOME Christian women is that their religious beliefs simply offer additional means of avoiding accountability that are not available to the secular woman.
-It could be argued that “not being alone” is a greater motivation than lowered social status for women. As women pair-off, the female hierarchy becomes less important. Women aren’t relying on each other for status and safety as much as they are relying on their husbands. There’s an innate sense of vulnerability that an unmarried woman is left with. 300 years ago, I would be reliant on the good will of the church to not die of starvation.
– Practical, you have been on here longer than I have, I believe. You have a high level of Blue Pill to show for it. This is intentional. You need to face the fact that our sex drives are not inherently Godly.
-Hollenhund, you’re going to have to smite the rod from your backside at some point. It’s only the way of things that women are going to trickle on here. Maintain your frame, and all should be well, as long as you have one. Think of this as a friendly fitness wake-up call. It also keeps the thoughts from inbreeding and becoming beta again.
– Deti, jack and I were talking about biker guy’s appeal last night. It could stem from liberation and power dynamics. If I marry a beta, for example, he’s going to fall under my parents in the social hierarchy, and I’ll never leave home. Nowadays, what does that mean? That means that my husband will be controlled by my mother, who will be at the top of the foodchain for the rest of her life. Biker guy leads his own small universe, and his wife would be number two in command. Women are attracted to their own power. I will say I know that much about attraction.
-“The key is not to try and fix the women, but to fix the system that permits them to nourish their unfettered maximization impulses.” < Thanks for restating my statement, dude. This was my thought, everyone. Mine. 😐 😛
-So, another thing we discussed: hypergamy = female maximization. Yes, the word "hypergamy" needs to be done away with from its context here. Female maximization has a unique femaleness, in the way that male maximization has a unique maleness, but if you want to emphasize the femaleness of female maximization, pick a different word. You know what, I just had this thought. It's female maximization, but more than that. It's the Female Imperative . Substitute “hypergamy” with “female (/feminine) imperative”, such as “a woman’s imperative [ne hypergamy] is to secure Alpha Fun and Beta Bucks.” I would be totally fine with that replacement, because it’s clear in meaning and logically coherent.
thedeti
When you ask a woman what she finds sexually attractive, the description you get ASSUMES sexual attractiveness and then goes on to describe how she wants that sexually attractive man to act towards her.
jack
My point is that women don’t even want to admit to themselves what they find arousing. So they lie to themselves, and their girlfriends, and the men around them, as they desperately try to convince themselves (and others) that they crave honest and upright men.
I’ve tried to keep an open mind when listening to women’s points of view on this subject, but empirical evidence has repeatedly brought me back to these same conclusions you guys have reached even though I want to be wrong. I’m even to the point now that I believe most women aren’t even physically capable of understanding, let alone describing, what they find sexually attractive in men, so I’ve pretty much given up asking them about it for now.
It seems like it should be a simple matter for them to look at their own behavior and realize that “gentlemanly,” “funny,” “intelligent,” and “kind” are not characteristics they find sexually attractive in men. I believe that at best, like thedeti implied, those are characteristics they want in a man whom they already find sexually attractive, and when a woman doesn’t take the time to find out if a man displays those traits, simply because of the way the man looks, it should be obvious to any observer, including the woman herself, where her priorities lie.
Why then do we see surveys in which women will rate a sense of humor as the top thing they look for in a man? If it were true that a sense of humor was more important than the traits found in the LAMPS/PSALM model, wouldn’t the studs be the class clowns and not the jocks? Wouldn’t women as a whole be more enamored by someone like Seth Rogen than by Chris Hemsworth?
I was about to add that some women may actually be more attracted to the funnier but average looking guy than to the masculine, handsome guy, but it occurred to me that when women show interest in the former rather than the latter that it may have more to do with what the woman thinks she can reasonably achieve based on her own value in the market. If she in fact could achieve the more handsome man, though, I wonder which she’d choose…
Even in spite of these realizations, though, I’m still not sure what the solution is for good, funny guys who weren’t EXTREMELY genetically blessed (and were only moderately so). The only solution I’ve found in the natural is to keep trying with women. Spiritually speaking, I’ll continue to hope, pray, and trust in God concerning this area of my own life.
Hank:
The answers to your questions are:
1. Most women confuse and conflate “attraction” and “desirability”. Attractive is confidence, dominance, status, looks, athleticism. Desirability is provisioning, bravery, loyalty, fidelity, stability, and personal hygiene. But when women talk about “attractive”, they always mention the “desirable” traits. This is because….
2. Women don’t want to say “I want a hot stud with muscle definition and a beautiful face who makes a lot of money, is nice to me, and treats everyone else like crap”. They don’t say it publicly because they don’t want to be judged as shallow, superficial and bitchy. So they say “I just want a nice guy who treats me right, makes me laugh, buys me flowers, etc.” because that what society expects her to say.
3. Most men aren’t attractive. They are such because they listened to 2 above, mostly from their mothers. Most men have been specifically, deliberately, and methodically trained and taught to be unattractive.
4. Surveys regarding “sense of humor is sexy” are related to 1 and 2 above also. Women confuse attraction with desirability, and they do it because they don’t want to look superficial or stupid. You have to understand — nearly all of society is deeply, deeply misled and confused about what is sexy and attractive in men. Most men aren’t sexy and aren’t attractive; most men are settled for. If the truth ever really got out about it, most men would pack it in and work minimum wage jobs, and prepare to live the rest of their lives alone and childless.
Thing is, I see that men are much, much better able and equipped to live alone and childless than most women are.
“Thing is, I see that men are much, much better able and equipped to live alone and childless than most women are.”
No. No, that was me. I just said that.
I might even add to my statement a bit about “you have to be sexually attractive”.
IN today’s SMP it’s really that whatever characteristics the man brought to the marriage, he must keep bringing them throughout the entire life of the marriage if the marriage is to remain intact.
So if a man brought hotness and sexy and sexual attractiveness, he has to keep bringing that. He must make clear that despite his marriage to his wife, he is still sexually attractive not only to her, but to other women as well.
IF he brought beta bucks, he must continue being a high earner. For the entire life of the marriage, he must provision her at least in the manner she was accustomed at the beginning of the marriage.
If he brought confidence/dominance, he must remain so.
If he brought kindheartedness and caring, he has to keep being that.
And if he ever becomes unable or unwilling to do or be those things that he originally brought or offered, then the marriage will be in big trouble.
One more reason that women conflate what they find sexually attractive and how they want to be treated is because they do not notice the unattractive men. Those men are like shadows in their world. Since the men they notice all have the sexually attractive traits, they are choosing from among them.
I have noticed this at my job. I am invisible unless a woman is looking for help or I have drawn attention to myself. Which is fun, because I can get close to my female coworkers and then startle them. Usually, though, I move about the store like a ghost.
The Shadowed Knight
@thedeti
I wonder more as I think about it that women are being completely accurate about the “what is attraction?” question as far as they are concerned. To that end, I wonder if that question would be a great tool to filter out whether a woman is interested in AF or BB as the answers would reveal such things?
Without adopting some of the language used by others, I agree that The Practical Conservative’s assessment of what sexually attracts or arouses women is incorrect. While I do not doubt that many women value such things, they are not the attributes which, by themselves, arouse a woman [previous language redacted as being a bit too graphic].
This is not to say that a man who possess those traits cannot arouse a woman. Far from it. But those traits aren’t enough. A man needs more, and that is where the LAMPS attributes come in (although bio-attraction plays a role too).
@ Jack
I’m pretty sure its already been done mate. If you seek it, I’m sure you’ll find it.
I’ve seen that before. There is no Hamster as powerful as that of a EAP or Churchian woman’s.
@ Hank
That mirrors much of my journey. When I found this part of the web I tried to piece it all together. SSM’s old blog (the first one) sort of solidified it for me that women Just Don’t Get It. My interest since then has been less about finding out what they think, than about why they Just Don’t Get It.
@ TSK
Truth. I have an experience from high school that I might relate one day which gets to this. Should have been a RP wake-up call for me. Wasn’t, and that is on me.
@ Ballista
I doubt it would be such a tool. More likely it would serve to show which women are more honest than others. From my experience, that is secular women (at least when it comes to this particular subject).
Some of the women on here are better than others at telling what they’re attracted to. We’re not all “The Practical Conservative.” The safest way to tell what you like, I think, is to just go with what a guy says attracts women, giving more credit to the ones who know what works. Another good idea is to look at a guy who has had success with women and watch how he triggers them.
There’s nothing wrong with that. The best thing you can do is work on your attractiveness. It’s entirely doable. If women had a fatalistic attitude about attractiveness, we would never wear makeup, brush our hair, or wear more than one outfit. The ones you want are the ones who put in effort/ consciously draw attention to themselves (their beauty).
You probably think you’re a great catch and people should look at you, because you got your hair cut. You probably think women are shallow for wanting more than that. That’s stupid. If you were a chick, you’d be wearing birks and sweats and only get dolled-up on the days you were attracted to hypergamy. We use makeup you use secretly attractive male game things.
*Sorry, didn’t read the last part about startling. I’m exhausted. Oh, that’s something guys do on purpose? I thought it was my own idea, like I was “suddenly attracted”.
Probably part of the reason they don’t want to be transparent with men about what they find attractive is it’s not useful and it could even be counterproductive by making them less attractive to men. It’s probably a similar reason to why it’s counterproductive for men to explain what they desire emotionally from women.
I suspect that women don’t want transparency about what they find attractive because they fear vulnerability to a man. It’s not because they fear being less attractive. Women are mortally afraid of judgment and rejection. Transparency leaves them vulnerable to being negatively judged (for shallowness and superficiality) and rejection (for not meeting others’ standards).
Men shouldn’t tell women what they want emotionally because that really does kill attraction. Women don’t want to hear about a man’s emotional needs; and most don’t want to try to meet them.
I am not a snowflake. My preferences in men are, if anything, bog-standard. Having the same job for years is not what I’m talking about re: stability. It’s about a sense of place and connection that atomized guys clearly neither live nor understand. Like I already said, it’s about being a fully formed person before she gets there. Not about being stable *for her* or comforting *for her*.
When one wears their personal lives so publically on their sleeves, comments and conclusions such as those made by deti are fair game.
I think we just don’t know what we like, generally. Part of that stems from inexperience, part of it’s just inevitable. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of Christian women on here just haven’t ever been attracted beyond the high school crush type attraction. These women are intentionally sheltered from getting attached, so no surprise if they haven’t been.
I don’t know if you’d count this as “alpha widow” or hypothetical “N-count”, but I’ve had the type of strong attachment that you can get without ever having sex and so on. I guess I’m curious as to how that gets classified. I know the medical term for it is “limerance.” It lasted about six years of hard mental work trying to get over it. I was not myself during that time, although I’m fine now. I didn’t know what it was for years, until I saw something about it online. One woman cancelled her wedding for a guy she was limerant for, and 20 years later was still actively trying to make it happen. Up until her engagement, she didn’t have any physical contact with the guy, as she had met him during her relationship with her bf/fiance.
So, that’s kind of a weird scenario, and it probably just doesn’t happen to 99.99% of women. It only happened to me once, and I notice that girls tend to bounce back in about a year or two if they were really into a guy. The average is probably more like six months. It was a very strong feeling of attachment. What I’ve found with every other guy I’ve liked is that at some point, I have the ability to decide whether or not I’ll like them. It doesn’t matter how charming or hawt they are, I can decide if I want to invest my energy in them. This is normal. I think most women are this way all of the time. With this guy, there wasn’t a decision, but some element forced me into a strong attachment. I have no idea what it was, but I strongly suspect histocompatibility.
I know that if I didn’t make the conscious effort to get over it, I would never get over it. At the same time, I gaining all of this weight, and I had to make the decision to stay fat or get back in shape. I spent all of my time at the gym. I don’t know if the attachment thing had an impact on my weight. I constantly thought of the guy, and was sort of in this constant “in love” state, but with no outlet for a good three years… and I hardly ever even saw the guy, maybe twice a year. It would be like if I was engaged to someone I had feelings for, we’d never held hands, and he was constantly physically there. My subconscious thought that he was physically available and apparently thought we were an item. It’s what I imagine a “honeymoon phase” to feel like.
Very little game actually got me to that point of attachment. I think we’d talked once before, and I’d worn a hat the previous week and he was wearing one that week. That whole thing was so odd. I can’t relate it to a lot of romances that I’ve heard of, which are largely based on action and reaction and take maybe two years to get over. It was more like being force-fed ecstasy. When I hear people describe ecstasy or heroin or some other drug and how that made them feel, I actually relate those experiences to mine. They’ll describe a euphoria, a depression, an addiction to said euphorias or depressions, heightened emotions, heightened senses, etc. It was also similar to descriptions that I’ve heard of people with bipolar disorder. There were so many highs and lows.
Basically, my way of coping with it was to go “cold turkey.” I realized that if I saw something that reminded me of him or ran into him or talked about him to a friend or did anything like that, my brain would rationalize that it “wasn’t a big deal.” However, this was denial: I could realistically see my life ruined if I kept following the “triggers.” I knew that if I did, I would either be in a state of always thinking about him, or that I would possibly get involved with him to a bad end. For example, one day I thought that it would be a good idea to call him up: “not a big deal”. I didn’t do it, but I saw where that was going. I was even tempted to “call” guys who reminded me of him.
All of my attachments leading up to that were normal for a young woman. I’d like someone for a little while, then feel sad and write sad things in my “diary” for about six months, then get over it. It wasn’t a thing for me to have weird attachments. If I saw this guy now, I really think I wouldn’t care. That whole thing is part of the past. I look back on it and think how strange it is that there are two dimensions to reality. I saw this guy as a friendly “object” for a little while, or a very nice walking tree in a rational world. And then I was in the dream world for a while and I was afraid I’d stay there. It’s similar to but not the same is finding yourself in a vivid music video, but the music video world is your reality. Attraction wasn’t a garnish to reality, so much as it *was* my reality. It wasn’t that the room I was standing in was a square and there were people in it: there were colors and smells and sounds and they shaped things like rooms and people. The energies of things were what I noticed. It was the flip-side of how we perceive reality.
Anyway, that is probably the weirdest thing ever written. However, I’m very curious about my experience. I don’t think many other women have had it. I think a lot of women will live their life, ride the casual carousel, waste bonding chemicals here and there, get married, and never know what they’re missing. In one sense, I think I could probably have as good an experience in marriage as most women do in their entire sexual careers. On the other hand, it’s sort of like going to Heaven and living on earth. That would be great to experience again. I would need nothing else if that could be my reality. However, there is a 0% that that will ever happen again, and I still think that I could have a great life without the experience. But given the choice, I would pick that feeling.
I’m mostly curious if some of the marriages these women had similar levels of attraction. I also wonder what kind of a dent this could have for my future, based on my description. Even though I had *that* kind of emotional experience, saving the sexual side for marriage was, I think, a good idea. It’s a novelty, I believe, that will make the marriage interesting enough. If I were just out having recreational sex everywhere, marriage would not equal sex to me, therefore, sex would not equal marriage.
I just wonder how I should view all that. It was not a conventional, relatable experience.
Practical Conservative isn’t dishonest. She just thinks the entire manosphere is fundamentally wrong about attraction, and that she knows better.
It’s illogical to say she’s dishonest, because as you’ve said, women tend to be blind about what makes them attracted to men. She can’t lie about it if she’s blind to it.
(P.S. – I had to switch computers, thus the avatar changes. I truly have forgotten my past email address. Lol.)
[DG: I will forgive you… this time.]
Attraction is something that you, as a woman, passively experience, not something logical that you can easily name and put on a list. It’s sort of like if I played a techno song, not a lot of people could break down the synth instruments and elements used to produce it, which is sort of the intention of the music to begin with. It’s written to sound seamless. You’re just there responding to the experience and the general idea of the song.
[DG: This is an interesting analogy, and actually one of the better one’s I’ve heard.]
My take on the “why women say they are attracted to desirable traits in men” thing is here (mainly starting with the second paragraph):
I don’t have access to using the internet on my laptop right this minute and it would take too long to repeat what I commented there on my phone, so there it is.
@FBNF: Ex-actly. Women are blind to their own attraction triggers.
@ Ballista
Thank you for answering my question. You make some good points there. I do however want to address this part:
sexual attractiveness and provision are mutually exclusive goals that can not fully exist together
This is one of those things routinely implied around the ‘sphere that is not correct. It’s not that a man can’t be both attractive and desirable (or both alpha and beta if you prefer those terms) at the same time; it’s just that it’s not common to find men that consistently do both at the same time, so people mistakenly think it can’t be done, that one cancels out the other. But it can be done. Take SAM for example (sorry to pick on you Elspeth, but SAM is an example that people here will recognize so I’m running with it). We can all see by the way that Elspeth gushes over SAM that she is very much attracted to him. But he is also desirable in that he is loyal, caring, protective, provides for his family, and a host of other traits that people around here oftentimes say make a man unattractive (or at least cause him to become unattractive). I’ve seen plenty of stories from Elspeth that make it plenty clear that SAM absolutely adores her and their girls and has quite a “soft spot” (so to speak) for them, though he is not what we would call a soft man. Basically, he is very attractive and desirable to Elspeth at the same time, and has mastered both alpha and beta traits.
@ Tru
Your comment comparing it to techno music and trying to separate the different parts of the sound was pretty spot-on! And far cooler than my “trying to unscramble an egg” comparison, lol. 🙂
Tru
I know the medical term for it is “limerance.”
The Wikipedia explanation for that term sounds just like every instance of unrequited love I’ve ever experienced since even before puberty and especially after. Isn’t this “limerance” term just another way of saying “oneitis?” I’ve had several cases of oneitis (limerance?) each last for years.
Feminine But Not Feminist,
Would your attraction for a funny man still be there if he were ugly? If you (or any woman) couldn’t honestly answer “yes,” then I would suggest that you find a sense of humor desirable, not attractive. That is, it would be desirable in a man you already find attractive, yes?
I agree with FBNF that a man can be both sexually attractive and a provider at the same time. In fact King David, whom I mentioned in my last Scripture post, is an example of a man who was both (which was why Bathsheba wanted him). Just because it is uncommon these days doesn’t mean it is impossible. And yes, it is difficult because of what it takes to be a provider. A man has to step up with the LAMPS attributes to compensate, but it can be done.
@ Hank
A man whose Looks are poor can still compensate by improving other attributes. “Funny”, or humor, can often tie into Power, so it can compensate for a deficit in a man’s Looks.
FBNF: I think we both had really similar descriptions and the same observation and the same time.
Hank: “limerance” means over three years of oneitis, to my knowledge. It’s strange, so I wouldn’t expect anyone to have had that experience, but I thought I’d see. I’m guessing oneitis refers to crushing on someone at the exclusion of other people.
Donal,
Can you chase Tru away?
Please????
Yes, we can certainly learn from those who differ from us, but at a certain point the contrarianism and the just sheer volume of bilge drowns out whatever good is happening here…
Or at the very least limit him/her/it to four comments and the STFU.
When one wears their personal lives so publically on their sleeves, comments and conclusions such as those made by deti are fair game.
Fair enough, Laura. You’re right. I don’t particularly mind the occasional reference to something I have shared, and I admit that I have probably shared a bit too much.
That said, the notion that because one man managed to carve out a good marriage after living a decadent lifestyle means that its the “prescription” for any man who wants the same is an outrageous conclusion to draw and repeat ad nauseum in the context of how to navigate these waters as a Christian looking for marriage.
@ The Scorekeeper:
How may comments is that since I said I was done?
donalgraeme
A man whose Looks are poor can still compensate by improving other attributes. “Funny”, or humor, can often tie into Power, so it can compensate for a deficit in a man’s Looks.
Yes, but my purpose isn’t to compare one attractive trait against another. My purpose is to demonstrate what I consider the simple difference between attractive traits and desirable ones. As the root of the word implies, an attractive trait actually ATTRACTS one person to another. A desirable trait one a person hopes will exist in an attractive person. If someone could honestly say that they would be physically attracted to an ugly funny man based on his humor alone and not other attractive traits, then I guess for that person a sense of humor would be an attractive trait.
Since we’re on the subject of other attractive traits, though, I’d like to point out that I don’t actually consider athleticism an attractive trait unto itself any more than I consider any other talent an attractive trait unto itself. If I’m really fast or can jump really far (both of which I was particularly good at when I was younger), that ability alone doesn’t help me attract women (or didn’t help me attract girls), and I never joined any school sports to demonstrate my athleticism in these areas.
This situation is the same with other talents like playing guitar. I believe this is why we don’t have “T” in the LAMPS model, as talent alone isn’t what makes one attractive. I believe this is true, because one of my friends was good at guitar but only played at home or primarily around guys, so he didn’t leverage his talent into money or status any more than I did when I played drums, even though I was a little more visible to others having played in several church / Christian bands.
Anyway, this musical talent parallel brings me back to athleticism. An athletic guy is attractive not for his talent, but it’s rather for his muscles and or height (looks) and / or what he leverages his talent into in terms of fame and popularity (status and maybe money and power, too). Therefore, I believe the attractiveness garnered from a man’s athleticism is actually initiated by a man’s looks and / or status (other components of the LAMPS) model. However, I know we’d do damage to our nice PSALM / LAMP acronym if we lost the only vowel in it, so feel free to disregard the above. 😉
“I am not a snowflake. My preferences in men are, if anything, bog-standard. Having the same job for years is not what I’m talking about re: stability. It’s about a sense of place and connection that atomized guys clearly neither live nor understand. Like I already said, it’s about being a fully formed person before she gets there. Not about being stable *for her* or comforting *for her*.”
I’m still waiting for you to tell us what a “normal” woman is and what an “abnormal” woman is.
You might not be a snowflake, but you don’t really have much of an understanding of what women find SEXUALLY appealing. I had a place and connection where I grew up, and later where I went to school. As I said, I did all the things you suggested, I was a “fully formed” person. Had a job, had friends, had money, had a place in the world, didn’t smell bad. None of it worked to attract a woman long term.
I think you understand what you find desirable in a man. You have yet to articulate what women (“normal” or otherwise) find SEXUALLY attractive. After all this discussion, it’s quite apparent that you still don’t understand the distinction. As I and others have said repeatedly, they’re not at all the same thing.
@ Hank
In answer to your question, I would say “it depends” on a few things. For one thing, it would depend on how funny he is. A guy that’s absolutely hysterical can get away with being less good looking than a guy who is just a little bit funny on occasion can. It would also depend on why he is ugly. If it’s because he obviously puts zero or little effort into maintaining his appearance (the effort is important to me) then being funny won’t be enough to redeem him. If he’s ugly because he didn’t hit the genetic lottery but he does put in a lot of effort to look his best, then being funny enough could help make up for that (though I would still have to evaluate each individual man to decide “yes” or “no” in that case based on his level of humor, how bad his genetic looks are, and also other things as an overall package). I can think of a guy I know from work who didn’t strike me as good looking at all at first, but he has an awesome personality (including being very quick-witted and hilarious). After a while I even started to consider him to be kindof handsome. So Donal is right, Power qualities can help compensate for less than ideal Looks. And now that Donal has lumped humor into the Power category, I think that settles the question of where it belongs.
thedeti
So they say “I just want a nice guy who treats me right, makes me laugh, buys me flowers, etc.” because that what society expects her to say.
I get why women might say this in certain situations because of how their preferences would reflect on them personally. I don’t understand why they would want to put up a good public image when answering survey questions where they’re probably anonymous, anyway. The only thing I can think is that they’re so used to giving that same answer in one venue that they carry it through to another.
“It’s not that a man can’t be both attractive and desirable (or both alpha and beta if you prefer those terms) at the same time; it’s just that it’s not common to find men that consistently do both at the same time, so people mistakenly think it can’t be done, that one cancels out the other. But it can be done.”
Yes. SAM is that rare combination of bull alpha and good beta – the alpha provider. But if he were only beta, only provider, he wouldn’t be attractive. If he had a “place and connection” to and in the world, and weren’t “atomized”, and nothing more, he wouldn’t be attractive. He would be desirable, and he would be a good man. But his life would look nothing like it does now.
Hence my conclusion that a man has to bring sexual attractiveness; or he will be consigned to loser status in the SMP. The marriages that work are the ones where the wife has a tangible incentive to stay, and that incentive is her sexual attraction to him.
And by the way, we can’t point to a woman’s faith, her strength of character, or other such things to suggest these are sufficient to incentivize her remaining in a marriage to a man she’s not sexually attracted to.
You can’t say that, not when we have a 38% divorce rate among professing Christians.
You can’t say that, not when we have a 25% divorce rate among Roman Catholics.
You can’t say that, not when we have “Christian” women writing publicized books and blogs about their extramarital sexual affairs as “testimonies” about God’s power to heal a marriage.
You can’t say that, not when we have “Christian” young women having premarital sex at the rate of AT LEAST 90%.
“the notion that because one man managed to carve out a good marriage after living a decadent lifestyle means that its the “prescription” for any man who wants the same is an outrageous conclusion to draw and repeat ad nauseum in the context of how to navigate these waters as a Christian looking for marriage.”
Outrageous? I don’t think so. I have yet to see any other model that actually works to get the man what he wants out of marriage and fatherhood. A Christian man wants to honor God, a lasting marriage, a satisfying sex life, risks of divorce reduced to a minimum, a relationship with and a chance to parent his children so as to influence their later lives, and to pass on a legacy.
SAM has ALL of that. SSM’s husband has ALL of that. And they have all of that because they are alpha providers. They have all of that because they are sexually attractive to their wives. They have all of that because they’re alphas with a touch of beta, not betas with a touch of alpha or betas playacting at being alpha. And “alpha” means, well, they attract women and have a proven track record of being able to attract women.
If someone else can show me some other model that will actually work to get a Christian man all of that, I’ll consider it. Until then, I’m going with what is described here as effective to get a man what he wants. SAM has what I want. Be like SAM.