This post is a continuation of my series on attraction. The most recent post in the series can be found here, and the first can be found here. Today’s post is going to focus on a specific feature of female attraction, commonly referred to as “Hypergamy.” This post is by no means meant to be exhaustive- there is a lot to cover and I won’t attempt to do so in this single post.
An Inaccurate Name for an Accurate Observation
Merriam-Webster defines Hypergamy as “marriage into an equal or higher caste or social group.” For anyone familiar with how hypergamy is used in the ‘sphere, you will realize that this definition is not what most people mean when they use that particular word. In fact, it is hardly ever used in conjunction with castes or social groups. Unsurprisingly, this trips more than a few people up. Those individuals who come across this part of the ‘net, and who upon seeing the word “Hypergamy” look it up, will quickly become confused. This often leads some people (mostly but not always women) to reject any “Red Pill” concepts which are connected with hypergamy.
Here is an example of a post where a woman “rejects” hypergamy. A quick review of her post will reveal that she has a better understanding of the subject than most who come to that conclusion. She knows that it is about more than just “marrying up” to a higher social group. However, her understanding is still imperfect (more might be said about her post but I’m keeping this narrowly focused here). To help her out, and to help out anyone else whose knowledge of this area is lacking, I will (try to) explain what “Hypergamy,” as used in the ‘sphere, actually means.
The thing to understand is that hypergamy is not about “marrying up.” And by that I mean its not about marrying, and not necessarily about “up” in a social status sense. No, hypergamy is about maximization.
Hypergamy means the female drive to maximize a woman’s access to a man, or men, who can meet her demand for the best genetics, provision and protection possible.
This “drive” breaks down into two specific drives, both of which can be (and often are) independent of one another. As Rollo has explained in the past (and I’m sure he can include a post or two in the comments below as examples), women want “Good Genes” and “Good Dads.” In other words, they have a drive to mate with a man with the best perceived genes, which will be passed on to their children. And they have a drive to secure or “lock down” or get “commitment” from a man who they perceive will be the best possible “dad.” Such a man will protect and provide for a woman and her children. Arousal (or sexual attraction) is tied to “good genes”, and (non-sexual) attraction is tied to being a “good dad.” Often, attraction and a man’s skills or ability as a provider/protector are tied to his social status, but not always.
The female ideal is to get both “needs” met in the same package. Essentially, a man with (perceived) good genetics who will also stick around and care for the woman and her children. However, it is not common (at least in this day and age) to find a man with both sets of qualities. And its even rarer to find that kind of man who is free and is interested in settling down. This is where things get more complicated.
You see, women are more than willing and able to seek out different men to meet each individual “need.” In fact, I would argue that women who cannot get both in the same man will naturally employ this strategy unless they are reared not to. This strategy entails sleeping with men with (perceived) good genes, and then trying to get men who are perceived as good providers/protectors to take care of them. It is called by some “AF/BB”, or “Alpha F—s, Beta Bucks.” Potiphar’s wife, whom I mentioned in my latest Sunday Scriptures post, was likely trying to employ this strategy. Bathsheba, on the other hand, was (assuming she was trying to get David’s attention) trying to get David to carry out a “relationship coup”- that is, to remove Uriah from the picture so that she could marry David. David, after all, was an upgrade from Uriah as far as both drives were concerned.
My suspicion, which seems borne out by evidence all around us, is that women primarily focus on “good genes” when they are younger, and as they get older and have children, “good dads” take preeminence (Rollo refers to this as the Epiphany phase). This, along with some things I will explain in the next few paragraphs, will explain why a stable-hand might draw the attention that a banker doesn’t.
Now, I’ve used “perceived” at several points in the last few paragraphs because it isn’t always clear which men have “good genes” and which men would be “good dads.” Usually the latter is easier to figure out than the former. Women use various shortcuts to try and determine how well a man rates on both. The primary tool that women use to determine “Good Genes” (aka, arousal) is a man’s LAMPS/PSALM score. The higher a man ranks in LAMPS value, the more sexually attractive he is to women and the more he will arouse them. The stable-boy, who is somewhat mocked in the post linked above, is an example of a man whose LAMPS score is high, at least compared to the banker. The banker’s decent Status value helps him, but if he has a lower Power value then it doesn’t matter, ultimately. Likewise, the reference to rogues and pirates all showcase men with high LAMPS scores, primarily focused on the Power attribute. These are all men who can arouse women, and since young women are primarily looking for arousal (rather than non-sexual attraction), that is why they garner such attention.
Something else tied to all of this is the behavior of “trading up.” This is a natural outgrowth of the drive to maximize access to “good genes” and “good dad” in a man. If a better man is found, then women will subconsciously want to “trade up.” That they don’t all the time is because of a number of factions: socializing, a sense of morality, a lack of opportunity and social penalties. Investing in a man over time can also reduce this likelihood. Remove these and women will often leap at a chance to trade up. Only, their idea of trading up may vary, depending on what particular drive they are trying to maximize at the time. Also, their perceptions of what constitutes “higher value” may not always be crystal clear.
One additional note: hypergamy is one drive among many that women possess. Albeit a powerful drive. But for women who are raised properly, its nastier effects can be limited, or even controlled. Unfortunately this is no longer the case for most modern women.
Hopefully this provided at least a half-way understandable explanation of hypergamy, as it is used by people in the ‘sphere. It is an inaccurate use of a word, that much I will grant. A better term needs to be invented, I think, to really encompass everything that falls under this umbrella. But until then hypergamy remains an inaccurate name for an accurate observation of female behavior.
Good Enough v. The Best
As mentioned above, hypergamy is about maximization and a desire for the best. Its arousal component means that a woman will be drawn, sexually, to the men around her who she perceives as meeting her drive’s demand for “good genes.” More specifically, she will be drawn to the best among them- those men with the highest LAMPS values. However, this isn’t the only behavior in play.
Women also have what is called an “Attraction floor,” which is a point below which they won’t consider a man as a viable sexual partner. This means that in a population where none of the men are above this point, women won’t be able to satisfy their “good genes” hypergasmic impulse (that one never gets old). If they do pick a man, it won’t be based on arousal. Rather, it will be based on his being perceived as a “good dad” candidate, aka, (non-sexual) attraction. There is no guarantee that they will pick such men; some women would rather do without (just as some men will choose to do without if they can’t find any candidates they consider acceptable/worthy).
What this means for a man is that he needs to make sure that he isn’t simply the best. He also needs to be sure that he is above a woman’s attraction floor. The problem is that there is no clear indication where this floor is. The fluid nature of the LAMPS model makes it difficult to pinpoint values. Furthermore, each women values each attribute somewhat differently, and also has her own floor for that matter. All of which makes it next to impossible to know where this floor is. It is much easier, on the other hand, to know where it isn’t. If a man arouses a woman, he is above the floor. If he doesn’t, then he is likely below it. Consequently, a man should always endeavor to build his LAMPS values as high as possible, to ensure that he is not only the best, but that he is good enough as well.
Toxic Hypergamy
One subject that comes up from time to time around these parts is Toxic Hypergamy. This refers to the notion that some women’s hypergamy “filter” has become so warped that they can no longer (realistically) meet it their hypergamic requirements. In other words, what they find acceptable or worthy in a man is at such a high level so as to be unattainable by all but a few men (or in extreme cases no man alive could ever be acceptable). Naturally enough, there aren’t enough of these men to go around. And often such men won’t have anything to do with women exhibiting this behavior. Further, the women who have this often aren’t high enough value themselves to justify having such standards. In many (most?) instances they are often quite bad at estimating their own SMV.
Toxic Hypergamy seems to be especially prevalent in Christian circles. More than a few posters and commenters around these parts can attest to personal stories of Western Christian women who demonstrated this particular condition. EAPs, or Entitled American Princesses, often have Toxic Hypergamy, and can turn down countless men while they wait for a “worthy” man to show up. This has only exacerbated the problems inherent in the American Church.
What I find interesting about this phenomenon is that it serves as further demonstration that a woman’s hypergamy can be influenced by her surroundings and by how she was raised. In the present age this is a cause of sorrow. But at the same time there is some hope for the future. Parents who raise their daughters right, either now or in the future, can account for this and hopefully take steps to help their daughters rein in their hypergamic instincts.
A Debased Currency
Rollo’s post Loyalty & Hypergamy is an article that I think some of my male readers would find illuminating (I guess women might find it interesting, but it is less likely to be illuminating for them, and would be a difficult read). It delves a bit into the concept of loyalty and how that intersects a bit with hypergamy.
Back to hypergamy: it’s a red herring. It’s really just Feminism.
Don’t they all.
Back to hypergamy.
I don’t see any necessary connection between not taking shit and having sex. Why do I need to fornicate not to take shit from anyone and be masculine and good-looking? When I was watching the Super Bowl I got up to go to the bathroom and a girl stole my seat, so when I got back I told her to move with a “shoo” motion with my hand and she giggled and moved, then she hit my shoulder with her hair and kept touching my leg. She didn’t know anything about me, but she seemed to be attracted to me.
“In the current SMP/MMP, how does a man demonstrate sexual attractiveness to a prospective wife without having had sex with other women previously? ”
Since I’m a normal human woman, I’ll give it a whirl.
Be a man, not a boy. That is, show signs of loyalty (i.e. you’ll stick around), stability and maintaining your body (not being ripped, just not looking slovenly). Normal women aren’t caught up in chasing thrills endlessly, they find loyalty sexually appealing because it means they are protected. Women who are abnormal find loyalty offputting because they conflate bravado with protective instinct.
Not being slobby, even if overweight/having chronic health problems means that the man recognizes that it’s important to spiritual health to make an effort.
Stability is also sexually appealing because it means you get to return to the well of bliss over and over and it’s a guarantee. I’m not referring to sexual stuff as such, but more that normal women find sexual appeal in being appealing *consistently* to their (potential) husbands. And not coming across as flighty is a promise of sorts that you could provide that kind of consistency in marriage.
Patrick:
How does a man demonstrate sexual attractiveness without demonstrating that he’s actually attracted women for sex? How do you know the girl was attracted to you? If you didn’t have sex with her, how do you know that she was attracted to you? Maybe she was “just being nice”.
I’m not giving you a hard time here. I’m genuinely asking — how does a man demonstrate sexual attractiveness without demonstrating that he’s attracted women for sex?
@Patrick: That’s one factor of attraction. You have the ability to maintain frame, and that’s actually a rare quality. But that’s only one part of it.
For example, if you were good at seducing a woman, that would add a lot. Seduction can be natural, but most of it is experiential. There’s a lot of trial and error involved to know what works and what doesn’t, especially when you’re dealing with women.
Nobody wants to talk about hypergamy. 😥
@Deti:
I get that you see me as an object lesson, but I am not. Really, all I was is a stupid girl who got lucky, despite my stupidity. Rehashing my admittedly anomalous courtship is not only unnecessarily contentious, but pointless.
Furthermore it undermines the stated aims here. This bit was just the push I needed to learn silence. At least on this topic. I do more harm than good.
I think I’ve gleaned more than enough to help my daughters see how Christian men (lifelong Christian men) think.
@Elspeth: The trick is, don’t fall into the trap of thinking that you need to achieve sainthood in order to get married. That’s the biggest lie in purity culture. It’s not a carrot at the end of a stick. It’s not a reward for being good. People pair-up best when they’re a little bit sinful. Just a little. There shouldn’t be a regret unless you’re encouraging your children to stay single.
How does a man demonstrate that he has attracted women for sex at all? Show her his venereal disease? I think when a girl intentionally steals your seat, pretends she doesn’t see you when you return, then giggles, hits you with her hair, leans forward to show you how long it is, then keeps touching your leg, those are signs she’s sexually attracted to you. But I’m not an expert.
Elspeth:
I disagree — your descriptions of your courtship, your marriage, your husband and how you view your husband have been extremely informative to me. They are an object lesson for all men, really. To me, your florid, exuberant, gushing descriptions of your husband’s attractiveness are exactly how a woman SHOULD view her husband. They are in stark, stark contrast to the way MOST women view their own husbands — as necessary evils, as idiots, boobs, dunces or schlubs. Most women view their husbands as roommates or as “good friends”, when they should be tingling night and day for their men – as you evidently do.
Attractive male characteristics like PSALM are universally attractive. Sluts like them. Christians like them. Smart women, dumb women, pretty women, plain women — they all universally like, and are attracted to, the PSALM characteristics.
The PSALM characteristics are the things which attract women to men, and enable men to attract women for sex. And it doesn’t matter one bit what their worldviews are.
She could be teasing you.
No I’m not teasing him, Tru. I’m serious. I think my experience is harmful to recount. Seriously. But that’s neither here nor there.
I’m leaving one last comment for you, young lady. Because I think your comment before this one indicates that you might enjoy this if you haven’t read it before:
By the way, I enjoy your sense of humor.
The Practical:
Loyalty and stability have nothing to do with sexual attractiveness. Sexual attractiveness is simply that the woman wants to have sex with the man. Not that she wants to keep him around or that he has Beta Bucks. You are not describing sexual attractiveness, you’re describing comfort and desirability. You’re describing things a woman wants in a man; but that is not the same thing as her wanting to have sex with him.
What you’re describing is a white knight.
@Elspeth: Whoops! I meant Patrick’s girl may have been teasing him. Not you, not you! Miscommunication!
“I think my experience is harmful to recount.”
It isn’t harmful for men. It’s extremely informative and reveals much. Your experiences demonstrate what a man has to bring in order to attract and keep a woman long term for marriage, and that is sexual attractiveness.
@Elspeth: Thanks!
Oh man, I’ve read all of her stuff. Love me some Haley!!
I am having troube with WordPress, so some comments are coming through late. Check above for ones you’ve missed.
The Practical:
As a younger man, I was given pretty much the advice you just doled out – “be a man, not a boy”, show you’ll stick around, show that you’re stable (i.e. display your Beta Bucks), dress well. I followed that advice for much of my dating life and marriage.
That advice brought me dozens on dozens of rejections. That advice caused me the repeated inability to get past date 2 with many women who did agree to a first date. That advice brought me extreme frustration and deprivation in my marriage. That advice very nearly ended that marriage, and almost destroyed the lives of my children.
So you’ll forgive my skepticism. Please forgive my saying that no man should follow any of that advice, except of course for the advice to guys not to get fat.
The Practical:
What is a “normal” woman, and what is an “abnormal” woman?
Do you mean “undamaged” for “normal”; and “damaged” for “abnormal”?
This is a dangerous paradigm in my view: women are just women. All women are pretty much the same in their attraction triggers. They like men who are trim, in shape, V-shaped torsos with taper from broad shoulders to narrow waist. They like handsome symmetrical faces with defined prominent jaw lines, deeply set eyes, smaller distance from eyes to eyebrows, and prominent forehead ridge. They like confidence (an attitude that he will survive and thrive regardless of circumstance); dominance (the ability and willingness to impose his own will on his surroundings and circumstances); and status (his higher standing in relation to other men). All women like these characteristics. It doesn’t matter what their worldviews, experiences, beliefs, upbringing, socioeconomic status, whatever — these are all universally attractive male traits.
So I have no idea where you’re coming from with “normal” women and “abnormal” women.
The Practical:
And when I talk about “attraction” and “attractiveness”, I am NOT talking about loyalty, fidelity, stability, predictability, “he makes me feel safe and secure”, etc.
I am talking about raw sexual attraction. I am talking about “she wants to have sex with him”. I am talking about the traits a man has that inspire her to want to remove her clothes, get naked with him and have him ejaculate inside her.
I am NOT talking about things that make her want to curl up on a sofa next to him and watch TV. I am NOT talking about things that make her want to share her feelings with him. I am NOT talking about his Beta Bucks. I am NOT talking about the fact that she knows he will walk through the door at about 6:30 pm when he gets home from work.
Deti, try being more descriptive. We don’t have any frame of reference to draw from when it comes to sex here, so we’d prefer it if you’d describe vividly and step by step. Ejaculate inside her with specifically what? Can you use more adjectives? I can’t quite picture it.
Tru:
I’m being serious. I get down to that level of description because when I engage women on this topic, they invariably confuse and conflate sexual attraction traits with comfort traits. Hence my very specific descriptors here: attraction, not comfort. Men bring way too much comfort and not nearly enough attraction.
A man’s displays of loyalty and stability have exactly NOTHING to do with whether a woman will want to have sex with him. Women have beta orbiters who are loyal to a fault and are as stable as the noble gases. But those women don’t have sex with those men; don’t WANT to have sex with those men; and get REPULSED by the thought of having sex with those men. So advice that a man should be “loyal” and “stable” and “be a man, not a boy” don’t get a man anywhere close to sexual attractiveness.
Oh yeah, I agree with you. Being “loyal” or “a man” does nothing to increase your base-attractiveness levels. It might make you consider someone as a spouse candidate if you already like them, but it’s not akin to a woman dolling herself up and wearing a pretty dress. It will help a man get through a woman’s filter.
But. So do other things. If you’re going to be a one-trick pony, your trick shouldn’t be white knighting.
I will say this, Deti. You’re a man, so to you describing sex accurately seems like a great test. You think, “if she’s turned-off by the idea, she’s not attracted. If she likes the idea, she’s attracted.”
But women are complex. We aren’t (usually) looking at point C and asking ourselves what the quickest way to get there is. We see point A. Then, we see point B. Then, we finally see point C. It’s a linear approach toward sex.
Women will develop feelings that lead to kissing that lead to sex. We’re not mentally trying to get straight to sex, which you, of course, know: foreplay and all that. I’ve really been tinglishly attracted to guys who I haven’t been thinking about sex with. I’m sure I would have had lots of sex with them if things worked out, but I’m a female, so there’s a lot of cognitive dissonance there.
It’s sort of like the woman sees sex with the left side of her brain and the man sees it with his right. We see it as an ordered checklist of things that need to be done one at a time. Guys see it in a big-picture, visualized way and can imagine how it looks, the way that I can imagine a picture before I draw it.
It’s fair to ask a woman if a guy excites her. It’s fair to watch a woman’s reaction to a man to gauge her interest level. If a woman talks about wanting to marry a man based on nothing, she likes him. If a woman is unconsciously copying a man, she likes him. If you hear a lot about a guy, that tends to be a good sign. Generally, if a woman is “guy” this and “guy” that, she wants him in that way. Fitness testing is actually a good sign too, and the more the better. That’s how a woman conveys sexual interest. A man conveys his by being pretty forward with it.
As a woman, you have to look at your reaction first, and then ask yourself if you look like a person who has a crush. That’s the best way to gauge attraction. If you’re in control, you probably don’t like him.
Not to nit-pick, but the original manosphere definition of hypergamy really pertains to soci0-sexual motivation/attraction.
Men are maximizers, just like women, but we are generally not hypergamous. Perhaps another word could be synthesized to use as an appropriate reference, but hypergamy is getting misused.
Why does this matter? Well accurate terms are important. By blurring the real meaning of hypergamy and making it mean any kind of maximizing impulses, it makes defining the real problems that much harded.
@jack: accurate terms are important. Agreed.
Is “hypergamy” a legit impulse/instinct? No. Is it socio-sexual? No, because it’s not hypergamy, it’s the expression of Feminism.
Now, the thing that Deti mentioned earlier where a woman will marry below her attraction floor, whereas a man will not: that’s something. That specific phenomenon needs a phrase to go along with it.
It impacts the SMV/MMV in a significant way for a variety of reasons. On the one hand, it makes a woman both the most and least powerful human in the market, depending on how attractive she is. I think this dimension could illuminate the under-wiring of the female social hierarchy.
Lesson #1 for all men.
Never take attraction advice from women. They will tell you what they WISHED gave them the tingles, not what ACTUALLY gives them the tingles.
For any given woman, there is a man (or type of man) who DOES NOT HAVE TO go through any of these qualifying steps to get on her radar.
She shows up at the coffee shop he goes to. She joins the church group he belongs to. She goes to the sporting events he participates in.
She dresses prettier when she knows he will be around.
And yet… Somehow, the advice women give to men is that the men should be doing all the qualifying behavior.
There is only one universally-true piece of information here. The only way to avoid being on the losing end is to refuse to play. There is no guaranteed method to get a woman, only a guaranteed method to not get LJBF’d, or put into beta-orbit.
I personally will not put any more effort into pursuing a woman than the effort she requires (or has required) of the men she really wants to sleep with. Let’s take Karen Owen as an extreme example of a Pastor’s Daughter.
She only required the Duke LaCrosse stars she serviced to show up at a bar. Therefore, any efforts beyond showing up at a bar and letting her pick you up is an affront to your dignity. Having to parade yourself like a supplicating beta for such a woman is a big fat no-go.
Each woman sets her bar lowest for the man she wants most. As a man, you must ensure that you are not required to jump any higher than that.
So, if she served up premarital sex to that charming bass player, you should not end up being the good guy who begs for post-marital sex.
No man should get a bigger discount on her feminine charms than the one who agrees to lock in until the bitter (bitter, bitter) end.
Mens’ attraction floor is already quite low, that’s why.
I could cure the SMP problems in an afternoon – all I need is a mad-scientist doomsday device that cuts the male sex drive by 90%.
That could make spinster out of buffy-era Sarah Michelle Gellar, one of the twelve pillars of hawtness.
Come on, jack. You know I’m in the NAWALT category for talking about female attraction motivators. I’m extremely cynical of my own motives.
Say “NAWALT”. Say it!
nAWALT
N(o),AWALT
There’s something contradictory that I don’t get about the whole AFBB thing: it’s been said plenty of times before (including at least one of Deti’s comments on this thread) that a woman will be willing to marry a BB man that she has no desire to have sex with, but (might) be “willing” to sometimes, as long as she keeps getting his “Bucks”. But in our modern days when the vast majority of women are “I don’t need a man to take care of me!” career women who have jobs and pay their own bills and all that, this idea that they would marry men that they don’t even want to have sex with just to get him to provide things (that she has already been providing for herself) doesn’t make sense. Pretty much any woman who chose to engage in AF is going to be so modern and “liberated” in her thinking that she will have this “I don’t need a man” attitude (in thoughts, words, and actions). So why would she even bother attaching herself to a man she doesn’t really want in order to get something that she is convinced that she doesn’t even need? I mean, I definitely don’t think that I don’t need a man, and I’m definitely not some career woman (I have a job to keep a roof over my head and food on the table, but I despise every job I’ve ever had and will never find any fulfillment in any of them), and I know I would be better off overall if I were married… but even then I wouldn’t marry someone that I don’t actually want to have sex with, because that would be totally pointless and miserable. As much as I hate being unmarried, it beats marrying someone that I definitely don’t want. So why would a modern-thinking “liberated” woman do so? It just doesn’t add up.
@ FBNF
For middle class and above, marriage is also a status boost. No woman wants to be the last person in her social group to get married because it’s perceived poorly. Thus, “woman will be willing to marry a BB man that she has no desire to have sex with, but (might) be “willing” to sometimes, as long as she keeps getting his “Bucks” [and has perceived increase status from being married, none of the ostracization of being the last to be married in her social group, and the attention she receives from potentially popping out a kid].
Lots of various factors involved, along with social cuing. Single older men tend to be shamed if they’re not married too, but since men tend to be less sensitive to herd think you see that greater numbers of them don’t really care. Especially if the man has come into his own which most men will have by their 30s and beyond when they start getting shamed.
Gosh, deti, if you’re going to define away what actually makes a woman sexually interested in men as “oh, what would that silly woman know about her own emotional state”, then I guess I’m wrong. But in realsville, many women do find stable, loyal men sexually appealing. By which I mean they want to have the old you know what in the place where all that happens. The appeal is that it’s not stability and loyalty *specifically for and about her*. It’s what he had before she got there.
White knighting is all about the girl, what I’m talking about is normal traditional manliness, which has nothing to do with the girl and thus attracts the girl. Showing that you stick around for your traditional commitments, that you are loyal to your family and clan, and that you aren’t so spiritually unhealthy that you feel oppressed by bathing regularly (I didn’t say dress well, just make an effort, subtle but important difference) is sexually interesting to most women, not what you’re describing, which has appeal only to a small percentage of women, maybe 15-20% of them all.
And it’s sexually interesting because the very trait that leads women to want government jobs and other forms of consistency and comfort also plays into their sexual tastes. Women aren’t novelty obsessed, no matter how many times some few men keep crying out that it’s so in the face of all the real-life evidence otherwise.
Karen Owen wasn’t wife material, so why do the things that sexually interest her matter one bit to men interested in wife material?
@ DS
Thanks for answering. That makes sense, but I thought Beta Bucks was about “bucks” or basically – material provision / money. Unless I was mistaken about that… (if so, then it wouldn’t be the first time, and won’t be the last I’m sure).
Deti, so much of what you’re saying is true… especially that men are not trained be brave, courageous, strong willed, and to command respect from others simply from their masculinity that they’ve grown into. I suspect that long ago, these traits were handed down from father to son… masculinity was highly respected, men were expected to be fighters, providers, and to basically grow up and enter the (masculine) adult world before they were 16 years old. It was a very different world that required amazing strength and responsibility to grow up that young, and I think the almost forced masculinity of the men back then made them far more attractive to more women… thus maybe the marriages worked out better (aside from what you’ve already stated how society forced monogamy anyway, I believe maybe this also played a role of the men simply being more attractive by nature).
Since we live in such a poisonous (speaking of feminism) environment that has sought to crucify masculinity and demonize it, and has tried VERY HARD to make boys into feminized creatures the same as girls, we have ended up with men that (like you stated above) don’t know how to have masculine traits because they were never shown or taught how…. These men are by default, unattractive to most women, but I’ve seen some “nice guys” turn it around – my own brother has. It’s not that he’s become a heathen now, its just that he now has a much better understanding of his masculine identity and combines it with Christian strength – women are now drawn to him (even as his sister, I feel drawn to him, obviously NOT sexually, but more of a charismatic way). His confidence and masculinity is comforting and makes me feel secure with him and to a certain degree, attracted to being with him/seen with him. It makes me proud to see him, proud of what he’s become – he’s turned his life around with just embracing masculinity.
You said this statement:
:: “The problem with most men isn’t that they’re mistreated or put upon. It’s that they’re not attractive, they can’t or won’t stand up for themselves, and they don’t know how to do any of the above. In fact they don’t know how to do it because they’ve been specifically and deliberately taught and trained NOT to be or do any of those things.” ::
This is the main problem. I’ve seen men that aren’t your typical handsome prince type, yet still had masculinity (game – being comfortable & flirtatious with women also is a facet of that) still be extremely attractive to women. Attraction isn’t based totally on looks when it comes to women evaluating men… just like men are attracted to many things beyond looks in women (mainly their feminine charm, sweetness, kindness and caring nature). Looks matter I believe, more to men since men are so visual.
Basically, I’m trying to say attractiveness and looks are two different and yet sometimes overlapping categories.
Actually, now that I think about it for a minute, I’m not sure that marrying a man who is unattractive enough that women won’t want to have sex with him at all would really be much of a status boost among women. I mean yes, it would be somewhat of a boost, but not nearly as much of one as having a husband that other women around you would also want would be. See, as far as I’ve experienced among women I know, the bulk of the status of being married is in what kind of a man the woman was able to secure commitment from. The more jealous the women around you are of you for marrying the particular man you did, the higher the status boost (even if those other women secretly –or even not so secretly– hate you for it). But to marry a man that is so unattractive that no woman would want to have sex with him, well, it’s more likely to inspire pity than anything: like “the poor girl couldn’t do any better than that? what a shame…” (which I’ve heard said before). What I’m getting at is that if a man is as unattractive as what Deti is talking about, then marrying him won’t help a woman’s status but will actually hurt it. But if he is at least somewhat attractive, then it will help her status.
@ FBNF
Two things. First, beta bucks isn’t necessarily literally “bucks”. It refers to any support that the man brings to the table (e.g. emotional support, companionship). See this: http://www.justfourguys.com/alpha-beta/ Historically, a husband’s support for his wife included a large material component, but modern economic realities have made this material provisioning role increasingly non-relevant.
Second, many career-seeking “independent” women do not marry, or at least delay their marriage into their 30s when they finally realize they need a man after all and desperately settle for the most suitable beta they can find, attraction be darned.
What fantasy world is this? I don’t see women lining up to marry nice guy office worker who is has a stable job and would be loyal to her for life. Christian or not.
I worded that poorly; let me try again.
If a woman marries a man that is horribly unattractive, then it will hurt her status more than help it (the being married part will boost her status, but the horribly unattractive husband part will lower it to a greater degree than was helped by just being married in general, thereby lowering her status overall).
If a woman marries a man who is of average attractiveness, or is at least somewhat attractive, and other women generally like him (or at least aren’t grossed out by him, and/or enjoy his presence in general), then being married to him will boost her status some, but not to a large degree.
If a woman marries a man that is quite attractive, that other women would want, that other women would be jealous of her for being able to marry, then that would be a huge boost to her status.
Basically, there is a status that comes with simply being married, but there is a bigger status to be gained or lost based on the man that the woman is getting married to. (Elspeth was accused of “projecting” once recently when she said something about men wanting to marry a hot chick to have a trophy wife, or something like that – which I think supports what I’m saying here). At least, that’s how it looks to me. I’m sure there will be some disagreements somewhere.
I was a Marine, and a nice, loyal guy, and it got me nowhere. Now I am a janitor, an asshole, and openly contemptuous of relationships, and I get plenty of interest from the women at my work. Massive drop in my ability to reliably provide and care for a wife and children, with a commensurate increase in obnoxious and offensive behaviors and an aggressive attitude. Even had a couple of subtle offers and someone asking me on a friend’s behalf.
Women rewarding good behavior is a bad joke. If that were the case, civilization would have survived their liberation and the ancients would not have found it necessary to limit women so.
The Shadowed Knight
@ FBNF
I think you greatly underestimate how much of a status loss upper and upper middle class women face from being unmarried in their late 30s and beyond. Even being married to a relatively unattractive (but good status) beta guy far and away trumps being unmarried. That’s why the UMC and UC are being so successful at not just getting married, but staying married – social respectability.
@ SirNemesis
Perhaps. I’m not really familiar with the ways of the UMC and UC crowd. I spent most of my life living in a small country town kindof in the “boonies”, where the vast majority of people are somewhere between LC and LMC. I have known a LOT of people that fit the stereotype of “hillbilly” and “redneck”. I’m sure the way of life that I’ve (mostly) seen people live is probably quite different than that of UC and UMC, at least to some degree, which then impacts how I understand some of these things you all talk about.
There seems to be have been no lack of comments since I was able to post last. Glad to see that people have been fairly civil. Not sure when I can respond to everyone though.
FNBF:
AFBB is more generic.
The AF can be the type of boyfriends she “makes mistakes” with in college, so therefore she can still see herself as the innocent, seduced party to the fornication.
The BB can be the guy that gives her legitimacy as a “married wife an mom” when her nesting instinct kicks in.
Sir Nemisis is correct as well. They want the status of being married so as to avoid spinster shame.
The so-called “liberation” that FNBF refers to is a lot more subtle among most women and especially church types.
Think Alpha Thrill, Beta Stability maybe.
Both confer a type of status and benefits of a differing type, depending on what the woman wants at that point.
Convertible in college, minivan in their 30s.