Annual Disclaimer- #1

[I’ve said in earlier posts much the same that I will say in this post. However, I think it is a good idea to refresh the warnings contained herein from time to time. Doing so every year seems sensible to me, and so, assuming I keep this blog running, I intend to do just that.]

Everyone who reads this blog should be on notice that I have covered, and intend to cover, divisive and unsettling topics. If you cannot handle sensitive topics, if you cannot stomach reading things that are at odds with your worldview, this blog is most certainly not for you. Such topics will occupy much of this blog’s attention.

One theme, or subject, that I have chosen to focus on is the “true” nature of men and women, as compared to what general society teaches about the subject. Besides fascinating me, it is also a subject that I think is worth explaining and exploring in the present day. Much hardship, on the part of both men and women, has resulted from the ignorance which is now the norm.

A great deal has been forgotten over the years, and it has been eye-opening to realize the full extent of that loss. Bringing attention to what was lost or forgotten will be a significant part of my efforts here. Many of the writers of antiquity were especially mindful of human nature, and not inclined to whitewash it or cover it up with PC jargon. However, that doesn’t mean there aren’t new things out there, waiting to be discovered, which were either never recorded or unavailable to those who came before. In many respects today’s society and culture is unique and unlike any that has gone before (this is not a good thing, by the way). It stands to reason, then, that we might be able to learn in ways that those before us couldn’t.

With all of that in mind, I want to emphasize that this journey will be a dark one. Many aspects of human nature are quite ugly. So, in the spirit of the times, consider this a “trigger warning.” Jesting aside, I don’t really believe in pulling punches or sugar coating things. So don’t be surprised if you find things on this blog that make you uncomfortable. And yes, this applies to both women and men. While most of the negative responses on this subject have been from women, more than a few men have retreated from it as well. They, after being exposed to the truth, found their ignorance far more comforting. No one should expect to find much comfort here.

As a Christian, this blog will have a strong Christian influence throughout. And since I’m Catholic, that particular Christian influence will also be present. At the same time, do not be surprised to see me criticizing much of what stands for Christianity and the Church these days.  Nor should readers be surprised if I stand up for the Faith as God intended, and reject progressive notions of what it means to be a Christian. In fact, expect to find rejections and arguments against most of the trappings of the modern age. If you cannot abide any of that, then this blog is not for you.

Also, for the record, the presence of a blog in my blog-roll does not indicate I support all, or even most, of what is said or found there. Its presence means that I find some measure of worth in occasionally reading it.  Sometimes the links that blogs provide are valuable in and of themselves. Also, just as Iron sharpens Iron, I find it helpful to read blogs with similar observations but different conclusions. Your mileage may very, naturally.

This blog will engage in dark delving in the days ahead. Expect to be uncomfortable. You have all been warned.

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42 Comments

Filed under Christianity, Red Pill

42 responses to “Annual Disclaimer- #1

  1. I suppose the main irony of Christians getting offended is that Christianity is offensive to other people.

    If you can’t stomach getting offended then how are you going to act when other people get offended at you? We all saw how that worked out with NYC pastor.

  2. A great deal has been forgotten over the years, and it has been eye-opening to realize the full extent of that loss. Bringing attention to what was lost or forgotten will be a significant part of my efforts here. Many of the writers of antiquity were especially mindful of human nature, and not inclined to whitewash it or cover it up with PC jargon. However, that doesn’t mean there aren’t new things out there, waiting to be discovered, which were either never recorded or unavailable to those who came before.

    I suspect there’s a sort of zero-sum mentality at work. Many people seem to believe that once something new is discovered, something old must be discarded, because it no longer applies.

    An example might be The Pill – once pregnancy was no longer a substantial risk, suddenly old sexual restrictions were discarded as if they were no longer necessary, and as if they only ever applied to that one thing.

    Maybe someone else can explain it better than I can. Not enough caffeine yet today.

    In many respects today’s society and culture is unique and unlike any that has gone before (this is not a good thing, by the way). It stands to reason, then, that we might be able to learn in ways that those before us couldn’t.

    Watching people use smartphones is educational. Same with the internet for the last 20 years. Anyone who pays attention can learn all kinds of things about human nature and behaviors that wouldn’t have been evident (and in some cases, may not have existed) before the late 80s or so.

  3. Elspeth

    We’ve had our share of disagreements Donal, but you’re right that some of this needs to be discussed. I had the disheartening experience today of listening to a woman as she cried over the state of her marriage to an unbeliever. Like me she was raised in a Christian home and during a particularly rebellious period fell for and married her unbelieving husband as a very young bride..

    I have been loosely acquainted with her for a while but had just assumed her husband was a Christian since they are a homeschooling family.

    That conversation opened the door to the revelation that quite a few women in our community are married to men who don’t believe or are lukewarm believers at best. In every case the women married young, discounting the idea that women just don’t want to marry when they’re young.

    Several of the women in the group I was with are mothers of several sons so I took the opportunity to 1) offer hope because I have been where some of those women have been, and 2) to admonish them concerning their sons. So I made a little speech, LOL:

    “What we did, those of us who married unbelieving men, was a sin. We were wrong, rebellious, and out of God’s will. There is no excuse. But since so many of you have so many sons, an I ask you to do something for me? Please do not beat the masculinity out of your sons in some misguided belief that meekness is equal to weakness, or that confidence is equal to pride, and that to be a wimpy indecisive man is to be more like Christ. It isn’t true. When your husbands are trying to make men of your boys, don’t interfere. Stay on your place.

    We are all living testaments to the reality that we desire, strong, confident, masculine men. Men who will lead us, and that being raised in a Christian environment doesn’t change that desire. Some of us were just not good people, church raised or not. We were sinful and rebellious and all that stuff. But some of you turned 18 and looked around your churches and found nothing but young men groveling for your attention rather than offering you the opportunity to follow them somewhere. And you went looking somewhere else, and suffered for it. I did too.

    Most of that is because mothers messed up the boys and the fathers let them do it. Do your part by recognizing that you don’t have a clue what it takes to be a man. Let your boys be boys. Please don’t try to make them be like girls.”

    As soon as the words left my lips I wondered if I was just offering rationalizations for my sin and that of the other women represented that woke up from the fog and realized the difficulties that come with being unequally yoked. I was blessed that my husband came to faith relatively early in our marriage. The other women present were not so fortunate.

    Whether I was rationalizing or not is something I’ll have to ponder further, but I do think it needs to be addressed, the basic realities of masculinity and femininity that have been lost in this current culture, with disastrous results.

    So I’ll still be reading along even though I think I’m going to try to be more silent in the future, this longwinded comment notwithstanding, LOL.

  4. Elspeth

    Typo:

    Like me she was raised in a Christian home and during a particularly rebellious period fell for and married her unbelieving husband as a very young bride.

    [DG: Fixed]

  5. In every case the women married young, discounting the idea that women just don’t want to marry when they’re young.

    Let me fix that for you:

    In every case the women married young, discounting the idea that all women just don’t want to marry when they’re young.

    That’s more like it.

  6. @ NSR

    I suspect there’s a sort of zero-sum mentality at work. Many people seem to believe that once something new is discovered, something old must be discarded, because it no longer applies.

    This is really insightful. I do think that many people engage in this, and more than a few do so consciously.

  7. Feminine But Not Feminist

    This disclaimer post is a pretty good idea. Just one slight correction though: even with so many uncomfortable topics being discussed, it can (and is) still comforting to read your blog (not always, but often). There’s something about having the wool pulled from your eyes that can have a comforting impact, even if you don’t always like what you see (which, to be brutally honest, I don’t always). Plus you have a knack for wording things in such a way as to make difficult-to-hear subjects easier to digest and accept than so many other bloggers do, which is a big part of why I kept reading your blog after finding it.

    Disclaimer of my own: YMMV

  8. Elspeth

    Well you know what I mean Donal, but I acknowledge the validity of your correction.

    The point was that under the right circumstances (even if they’re really the wrong circumstances), a significant minority of young women will go ahead and marry young.

    Unfortunately we’ve done a terrible job of equipping young people (spiritually and otherwise) for that path.

  9. Unfortunately we’ve done a terrible job of equipping young people (spiritually and otherwise) for that path.

    You won’t hear any disagreement from me about that.

  10. @Elspeth:

    I can vouch for the same. When I was in my late teens, I longed like mad for somebody to notice me. My friends were all getting married and nobody even seemed to realize I was around. I was just invisible. But it all worked out just the same, so no complaints here. But it’s true; you really have no idea how many young girls are longing for husbands. We have a unique phenomenon in our parish in that a lot of young men are seeking the priesthood and one has entered the Benedictine monastery; other young men are also seeking religious life. We have young ladies here by the number, many of whom are seeking a husband. Yet there are no marriages and in spite of our best efforts at young adult gatherings (which are always well and enthusiastically attended) there have been no engagements. Not a one. Dad in the Shoe and I have helped with several of these. He has proposed we host one at our home, not that we have a lot of room for one, but since we have a smaller property than many of the other families, I think his rationale behind it is that there it will be sufficiently crowded for them to have no choice but to start pairing up and talking to one another. It’s our turn to host the married couples’ monthly get-together next month, so maybe after I recover from that, we can chaperone a young adult gathering (I don’t do crowds and parties well; this may take six months).

  11. Elspeth

    Another long comment warning, LOL:

    I can vouch for the same. When I was in my late teens, I longed like mad for somebody to notice me. My friends were all getting married and nobody even seemed to realize I was around. I was just invisible. But it all worked out just the same, so no complaints here. But it’s true; you really have no idea how many young girls are longing for husbands.

    My experience was slightly different in that while I wasn’t invisible, I wasn’t visible to anyone 1) my age as older men (at church I mean) seem to take a shine to me from the time I was 16 and my father was having NONE of that, and 2) I was really focused on “making it” out of where I’d come from.

    My husband ignited a passion in me that made me more than willing to throw it all away (and I mostly did just that), and I have seen that no insignificant portion of women are willing to do likewise. Of course, I think it’s more common in working class and middle class women than it is among the often ballyhooed UMC that is the standard of measurement around these parts.

    The other thing I thought of as I contemplated this as well as the experience I had with those other wives this week is a very fundamental difference in the way maleness and femaleness are viewed, and how that colored the way I responded to my husband. His father raised him and his brothers to view their maleness as something to relish and revel in (with all that entails) and that masculinity was innately superior to femininity. Having 6 daughters and an exemplary mother tempered some of that in my husband, but still, a male inferiority complex isn’t one of his struggles.

    To be honest, while my dad never actually said anything like that, the undercurrent was always there. The difference was that rather than mistreat his wife and daughters because of it, he took good care of us.

    Today the standard line is that girls rule and boys drool, except that rather than women seeing this paradigm as a call to step up and be better, it’s a call to trample over men because “Boys suck. Throw rocks at them”. And it isn’t always overt, as Mr Glenn Stanton at FotF has made crystal clear with his crazy and anti-marriage commentary.

    How we can grow a generation of men and women who are ready for marriage at the optimal age and ready to live up to their roles and husbands and wives is a crucial conversation to have but nobody seems to want to have it.

    I saw today that Sheila Gregoire’s just turned 20-year-old daughter got engaged and I couldn’t help but think that for all the maligning she and her husband take around here, they did manage something the majority of us haven’t. Huh.

  12. @ MITS:

    I know you’re going to think I’m picking on you. But I had to point this out.

    “When I was in my late teens, I longed like mad for somebody to notice me. My friends were all getting married and nobody even seemed to realize I was around. I was just invisible. But it all worked out just the same, so no complaints here. But it’s true; you really have no idea how many young girls are longing for husbands.”

    No, they don’t want husbands. They want hot men to notice them.

    The young girls want the same thing you did: for a man to NOTICE them. Not to marry them or “get serious” with them. They don’t want marriage. They want attractive men to notice them, to regard them, to pay attention to them.

  13. @ Deti

    Based on my observations of some Traditional Catholics, I don’t think she is wrong. Many young girls that age do want to marry. Of course, they want to marry the hot men who they want to be noticed by. That is only natural, and I don’t fault them for it.

    In those circles marriage is not pushed off like it is in general society. Further, there is social status in marriage, and being a mother in addition to being a wife. Possibly even more status is seen with marrying younger (mayhaps as evidence of being more desirable by men?). Children also seem to confer status as well.

  14. “My husband ignited a passion in me that made me more than willing to throw it all away”

    This right here is the secret of marital success in 21st century America. If a woman doesn’t feel and sense a passion for her man sufficient to make her willing to do anything for him, then she is unlikely to be happy in that marriage. If she isn’t happy, she has every incentive to leave.

  15. @deti,

    I’m afraid I must disagree with you strongly. You are not familiar with the dynamics of traditional Catholics. Our girls are raised very traditionally. We have been raised ourselves and are raising the girls to be wives and mothers and to embrace the traditional role. Some more and some less, of course; there are variations in that. Not every woman and girl goes about in long, full skirts. Not all of them homeschool. Some men allow their wives and daughters to wear jeans and allow their daughters to wear nail polish. Other men, such as my husband, only permit the ladies of their families to wear pants on very specific occasions (we are required to wear our skirts over them) and do not allow their daughters to wear nail polish (I did an “oops” in that department and bought my daughter a little bottle of clear nail polish for her Epiphany present without consulting my husband, a big no-no. I wasn’t thinking. We had to return the nail polish and give my husband the receipt to prove it, then he allowed us to purchase an approved gift with the money.) There are a lot of variations. But it is understood that the buck stops with Dad, wherever his limit may be. He’s in charge and that’s all there is to it. End of story.

    You are correct in that we tend to be more interested in the good looking ones. I believe that is common to human nature. Men prefer their wives to look their best; that is their nature. After a few children, many of us have put on a few pounds and as we get older it gets harder to get them off….and our husbands let us know that they want us to focus a little more on our health and appearance so that we look nice for them and please them. As wives, we have that obligation to meet their needs in this area, plus it also meets our need to maintain our health and vitality. So, being male, you can doubtless appreciate the fact that many young girls will tend to gravitate towards the handsome men. However, the first man I fell for — hard — was very handsome, and he proceeded to break my heart. I learned a lesson the hard way that looks are deceiving….but Dad in the Shoe is also very handsome. 🙂

  16. Random Angeleno

    Something about the pesky truth that sets us free … some people can’t handle it. And never will. Film at 11.

    Regarding young women wanting to marry: I sure am not seeing that in my neck of the woods. Like Donal, I’m Catholic so maybe I’m biased. But I can’t help noticing that the young women in my parish dress no differently than their secular high school and college peers. In other words, if you mixed them up at the local frozen yogurt store, you couldn’t tell the Christian girls apart from the others.

    As a man of a certain age, I feel sorry for their male contemporaries. As brutal as it was when I was growing up as one of those nerdy kids who didn’t know whatever it took to attract a girl (and looked the part), I think it’s gotta be way worse today. There was no drugging boys when I was growing up, every class in my elementary school had its share of boys who couldn’t sit still for long. Now it’s one in eight boys or something like that who are diagnosed as hyperactive and get drugged while the rest are forced into girls’ roles hence they have no experience of male classmates expressing their masculinity in healthy ways. Add to that the lack of male examples in the home and well … So girls grow up wanting to marry … who’s available these days that they might reasonably be attracted to?

  17. mdavid

    E, I have seen that no insignificant portion of women are willing to do likewise. Of course, I think it’s more common in working class and middle class women than it is among the often ballyhooed UMC

    This is a very important point. I’m not sure how this plays out over the next generation, but boy, I’m sure interested. Hispanic MC/WC matriarchal families will have a big impact here and I’m puzzled as to how bad things will get. OTOH, MC women are going to have more opportunities to “move up” to better men. But they also have lower expectations. However, most will feel like they have to work, and this cannot be good for stable families, whom mostly seem to be UC in my church (usually SAHM, with high fertility correlating with education). I think the future of our culture depends on how the MC survives the marriage trap in the next 20 years,

  18. This post has already got me thinking about two possible posts.

    The first is an examination of the situation which Elspeth described: a young Christian woman marries a non-believer but doesn’t really leave the faith herself. What I am curious about is how often the counter-part scenario takes place. That is, often do young Christian men marry non-believing women but not leave the faith themselves?

    The second post idea is to explore a bit the scenario that Mom in the Shoe described- the disparity in Traditional Catholic circles of young men choosing the priesthood or religious orders over the vocation of marriage.

  19. @Random:
    Ditto on the observation that you don’t see a lot of difference between the Catholic girls and those attending the secular high school. We see the same here. I should have clarified that a little better, because there is a high percentage of people, even in Trad circles, where you couldn’t tell the difference. The people I am describing tend to be among the homeschooling families, and more specifically among the homeschooling families who do not allow their children to listen to the latest music or carry a Smartphone.
    However, you can go overboard there, also….I have found that the best way was to not outright forbid the popular culture, but to show why we do what we do. For example, when we hear current popular music, wherever it is, it is good to encourage the kids who are the right age for it to carefully listen to the lyrics — just what is being said? They come away with a renewed appreciation for why Mom and Dad only have classical music in the house and own that conviction themselves.
    Another issue that comes up is that, put very bluntly, there is nothing — literally nothing — in the junior departments of stores that is really modest anymore. For baby girls and toddler girls, there are some adorable clothes, but I am finding that for even girls as young as five the clothes become unbelieveable. Even shoes. You can barely find a pair of nice, sensible Mary Janes anymore. All the shoes are strappy with high heels — for little girls! The skirts are tight and short. The blouses have shorter sleeves than ever, and they are tighter. It’s enough to make you scream. Clothing girls means you must go online to buy clothes and vintage patterns. It also means that if you don’t know how to sew, you have to learn.
    My four year old daughter is still small enough that things in stores will work all right for her, but my ten year old daughter’s clothes are all homemade or purchased from little cottage industry online shops. Occasionally we get lucky at a secondhand store. Some families find this to be too oppressive and just let their girls wear whatever they can find. Unfortunately, this means that the girls wear miniskirts and far too low necklines. They may be very good girls and very sweet, but their dress is not showing it, and it is dangerous. The buzzword in girls’ clothing is all sex, sex, sex. Nobody can escape it. Those of us who were still able to shop at Sears or JCPenney for clothes when we were girls are reeling from the fact that we can’t clothe our daughters the way our mothers clothed us. It’s disheartening and enough to make most mothers wish they had had all boys. We run our sewing machines until 3:00 AM trying to keep our girls in modest clothing, not an easy thing to do when they turn twelve or so and start outgrowing clothes and developing and we have to alter patterns in the midst of teaching them algebra and Latin because we have to keep them out of the toxic culture of the local school where they teach sex ed. And you can’t even take children to the grocery store with you, what with the pornographic rag sheets plastered all over the checkout stands. Fortunately my twelve year old son has been known to go up to a particularly egregious calendar with undressed women all over it and put it behind a bunch of others, but how long he be able to do that without catapulting straight into sin?! God help us all.

  20. @mDavid,
    Forgive my ignorance, but what do OTOH, UC, WC and MC mean?

  21. Elspeth

    What I am curious about is how often the counter-part scenario takes place. That is, often do young Christian men marry non-believing women but not leave the faith themselves?

    I don’t know that I’ve seen young men marry obviously unbelieving women, no. But what I have seen on quite a few occasions where young men married young women who were nominal believers at best. And I’m being generous. Two in fact who actually dumped devout girls for the less fervently believing girl. So it happens. Sadly, for the men it doesn’t require that they leave the church to do it.

    @ Mom in the shoe:

    This past December husband and I were in JC Penney and they had some very modest Bermuda shorts in their girls 7-16 section. We weren’t there for shorts but for pajamas, but my husband immediately said, “Buy as many pairs of those as you can. Every color they are available in. If they don’t have a size you need in here, have the cashier go online and order them. Who knows when or if you’ll find something like this again?”

    So we bought each of the girls 4 pairs. It’s pretty hot down here 9 months of the year and we’re not anti-shorts or pants for our girls. We buy long skirts and dresses (usually maxi style) and in the cases where the skirts are shorter than we like, we just buy leggings, put some baby doll shoes on them, and you have a modest outfit. Our older daughters piece together acceptable outfits in similar ways.

  22. mdavid

    DG, The second post idea is to explore…the disparity in Traditional Catholic circles of young men choosing the priesthood or religious orders over the vocation of marriage.

    Not much to explore. It’s merely culture interacting with marriage law. The same thing happens at wartime with a shortage of men. Note the “importance of marriage” gap since 1997:
    Women rose from 28 to 37%, or +9%
    Men dropped 35 to 29% -6%

    Kick men long enough, they don’t want to play. Women cost too much today. Mark my words: in 20 years, macho will be mainstream and any man with a good job + macho attitude will be akin to a rock start in the marriage market. And sadly marriage in it’s current form simply won’t exist for the average person. It will be the exclusive institution of the a) hot & successful woman, b) old-style tradcon. And many women, out of desperation, will try to infiltrate the latter. Look at WAF to see a trickle of this already.

  23. Elspeth:

    That’s interesting, wish I had caught that! I hardly darken the door of a regular department store anymore. I buy shorts for my daughters to wear under their skirts. It sounds like you live in my area of the country. It sure would be nice to meet you if that’s true. I am in the southwest. Even in the traditionalist circles it’s difficult to find women who will really encourage you to live in a way that honors your husband…I think DG has the email addresses of those who post, so if you would like to connect, I would love it…I feel like an island sometimes. 🙂

  24. Mom in the Shoe,

    I have found modest young girl clothes, surprisingly, in Walmart. It gets harder as they get older, but I was able to get several long sleeve shirts there this years for my younger girls (8 and 10). Dresses on the other hand, not as easy. Especially long sleeve dresses.

    I also think it depends on which Walmart you are able to go to as the selection seems a bit different from store to store.

  25. MITS:

    Thanks for that description regarding TradCatholic folks. I must say, however, that since you’re part of such an infinitesimally small group, discussing its characteristics really isn’t of much benefit to men who aren’t part of the group and who will not be able to select a wife from among their number. As things now stand, you’re an exception (and an exceedingly rare one at that, even among TradCatholics), not the rule. Men can’t live their lives based on exceptions, or hoping that exceptions will apply to them. Men cannot live their lives as if they will never have to live according to generally applicable rules.

    OTOH: on the other hand
    MC: middle class
    WC: working class
    UC: upper class

  26. Feminine But Not Feminist

    Speaking of young men joining the priesthood… I don’t know how helpful this will be for you Donal, but I just read this post relating to that. Here it is just in case it could be useful to you. https://catholicismpure.wordpress.com/2015/01/22/how-to-kill-vocations-in-your-diocese/

  27. This is an observation. It is NOT a criticism, a complaint, or a slam on Catholics.

    Most Catholics I’ve ever known are not “traditional” in any sense of the word other than adhering to the prayer, liturgical, ceremonial and sacramental rituals of the Church, and simply attending a Mass once a week. Most send their kids to Catholic schools, but usually only because the public schools are crap.

    In absolutely every other sense of the word, they are modern. They consume the same media, wear the same clothes, speak the same cultural languages and memes, and attend the same parties and gatherings, as their Prot and secular friends. Most Catholics I’ve known are working to middle class, and have an “earthy”, plainspoken character about them. One of the things I’ve always liked and appreciated about Catholics, frankly, is that they just seem more “real”. They make no effort to conceal their joy or their pain. They curse and swear on occasion and make no apology for it. They also don’t have hangups about drinking alcohol. They overindulge sometimes and make no apology for that either. They don’t have the “holier than thou” attitudes I see way, way too often among even mainline Prots. I used to hear about the fun times Catholic men would have at their K of C meetings (where women were not allowed, and I now know why — they wanted to go to a place and drink a Jack Daniel’s or three without women around).

    And that earthiness carries over into sexual attitudes. Sexually, both Catholic boys and girls get started earlier, are more sexually active and experienced, and more sexually experimental. They don’t hide the fact that they’re sexual creatures. They embrace their sexuality. They like sex and accept that people actually, you know, have it. It is a cliche, but it was generally known that Catholic girls were the easiest to get to know, the easiest to date, and the easiest to get into bed, and the least hung up about it once you got them into bed. And I have to say that based on my own experience, it’s true — Catholic girls were, well, just more ready to head to bed with guys (whether those guys were Catholic or not) than pretty much any other group, including even nonbelievers.

  28. Another thing regarding Catholics is that they’ve adopted most of the same sexual mores as the rest of the culture. They divorce at a rate about 13 points lower than Prots. (The Catholic divorce rate in the US is 25%, which is still significant because Catholic teaching is no divorce, ever, for any reason.) Many have premarital sex and see no moral problem with it, or see the moral problem and do it anyway. Many use artificial birth control in direct contravention of Catholic teaching.

    Again: Observation, not criticism, complaint or aspersion-casting.

  29. mdavid

    deti, Most Catholics are not “traditional” in any sense of the word

    Of course, that’s why they have their own name. Trads from different religions have more in common with each other than with people of their religion. Culture leads, religion follows. And while rare, they are growing like crazy due to the infertility of everyone else. It’s a great extinction event, and trads are the survivors.

    The only exception I’ve seen is protestant versions of Christianity (not including old-style versions like Amish or Anglicans). Being new and constantly changing they are rarely trads, and when acting traditional it’s usually individual-based, not community-based, and dies out fast. Women demand the real leadership from traditional men, and that sort of thing is learned within family and hard to just create out of thin air.

  30. Feminine But Not Feminist

    @ deti

    From what I can tell, most Traditional Catholics will either be few and far between, or will be off the grid in their separated communities. I’ve been told of one such community, which is one you aren’t likely to encounter unless you specifically go looking for it, as it’s way out inn the country away from most anything modern (I’m only going by what I was told, I haven’t seen this place for myself). So it’s no surprise that most of the Catholics you tend to see aren’t very “traditional”.

  31. mdavid

    deti, Many use artificial birth control in direct contravention of Catholic teaching.

    I think Amish and Catholics are the only two religions left that teach on birth control anymore. Probably about 5% of Catholics and 50% of Amish actually obey, and those 5% of Catholics are the trads.

  32. BFNF:

    Yeah, that’s true….I grew up in the SSPX and now attend the FSSP (that’s Society of St. Pius X and Fraternity of St. Peter for those who may be unfamiliar with those), and the running joke is that you can spot a traditionalist by whether or not they know where Post Falls, Idaho or St. Marys, Kansas are and can locate them on a map.

    Deti:

    You are 100% correct. We are rare and far between. We are the children of the folks who became alarmed after Vatican II and scrambled to rescue their children from what was going on in “Catholic” schools. Also, the people in the fifties (and unfortunately we can count those among our own families) got very laid back and absorbed the culture around them. My mom to this day thinks the fifties were great, and she doesn’t get that it was corrupting then, and very quickly. It just all came to a head in the sixties and seventies. But the families were leaving all the education up to the Catholic school and the CCD class and weren’t doing anything themselves. By the time the damage was done, they realized they had to do the educating themselves, and the homeschooling movement was born. But everyone got it “too late smart”.

    I’d also have to say on your observations on sexuality, however, could be a symptom of dangerously outdated methods of instruction. I was raised in a situation where the subject was not ever discussed. To even mention that word was guaranteed to explode the parental volcano. Growing up without a Dad made it more difficult, but we were left in complete ignorance, even when things happened to us that could not be ignored. So what happened was that (and this has been a situation in which I learned later wasn’t uncommon) I found out my information from books, and found out more than was appropriate for my age. The first hurdle – disgust. The second hurdle – curiosity. The third hurdle – violent temptations. And guess what? Nobody to confide in. Being homeschooled and raised in the way I was with very good catechesis, strict dress code and strict code of conduct, I was spared the junk everybody else has to go through. I doubt kids without the safeguards I had, with the outmoded “we never talk about that” ideology, in a co-ed public school or Catholic school setting, could have made it through without heroic virtue.

    I’ve always been very frank with my kids about those things. I started taking them to pray in front of Planned Parenthood when they were in the stroller. That was how I started teaching them. It was about respect for life. They all got excited when a new baby was coming, they saw the ultrasound picture, they understood the basics in accordance with their ages. Coming from that angle it’s not difficult to teach your children how important it is to be chaste. History also provides innumerable examples how impurity leads to murder. And it’s also important to answer their questions honestly and to let them know that whenever they are having a problem, they can come to you and confide in you. They have to know you’ve been there before and you can sympathize. You won’t condemn them, but you will exhort them to turn around, offer advice and offer to drive them over to church for Confession if they need it. I hope this is how you raise pure boys and girls. I don’t have a teenager yet.

    In the past, I am certain that most Catholic parents left it all up to the school and the catechism class, and never did their jobs. They also weren’t vigilant in making sure their children didn’t follow the fashions of the day, and thoroughly instructing them as to why they should not as opposed to blanket prohibitions. That’s why we do what we do today, so as to hopefully not repeat these mistakes. After that, all we can do is pray that our children will take the lessons to heart and internalize them.

  33. Deti:

    We have a men’s group and a women’s group at our parish; the men enjoy beer, cigars and a good steak on the grill when they get together, and the ladies have a luncheon tea….we all enjoy it. It’s good for us to get together once in a while just on our own; the men’s group does the heavy lifting projects in church and the ladies group takes care of altar linens, flowers, fundraising and children’s activities. They are fun, and I know my husband really likes to go to a “no girls allowed” event.

    On how we are more down to earth — I believe Hilaire Belloc said this:

    “Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
    There’s always laughter and good red wine.
    At least I’ve always found it so —
    Benedicamus Domino!”

    And, yep, there are alcoholics and so forth among Catholics. Hush-hushing it all and pretending we’re all so great is total hypocrisy. We are far more likely to finally end up where we all want to be if we are honest about our shortcomings. The stuck-up WASP (which was my family of origin before they became Catholics) attitude is the one that is gonna kill you, because they turn their noses down at anybody who is not like them. And we all know there are drunkards and adulterers around them, but they’ll never admit it because it would ruin their image of perfection, which is what they truly cannot stand. Some of the finest people I’ve known have been those who have lived a very bad life in the past and have surrendered to God’s grace to claw their way out of it. They’re honest and humble.

    This is an area where the Trads can start having problems, though — and one reason why we don’t live in a community of trads unto themselves. There is a tendency to get very snobbish and think you have the fullness of the Faith while the outsiders are all going to Hell. I grew up in this type of environment and can attest that it gets super ugly. My sister, brother in law and their 13 kids live in one of these towns. She is the kind of person who can ride above it all, but I know I couldn’t due to my personality. It’s also tough if you are trying to make ends meet and there aren’t well-paying jobs, yet you’re expected to pay huge tuition bills for the schools — and if you decide to homeschool to keep out of the poorhouse, you could get ostracized. Bottom line is that there is no one right way to do things.

  34. @ donalgraeme

    The first is an examination of the situation which Elspeth described: a young Christian woman marries a non-believer but doesn’t really leave the faith herself. What I am curious about is how often the counter-part scenario takes place. That is, often do young Christian men marry non-believing women but not leave the faith themselves?

    I doubt it is that common. Being an unbeliever probably provides bad-boy cred when dealing with a religious woman that simply doesn’t exist when you reverse the genders. I could see religious men potentially marrying nonreligious women if they find religious women too unattainable, but I don’t think this would be too common.

  35. Thought for today on this grim anniversary:

    While people around the world contracept and abort themselves out of existence, something to keep in mind is that the traditionally-minded are the ones who are having children in great numbers. The sexual revolution is already devouring its own. I really must say that there is a LOT to be hopeful for, and I don’t think things are as dire as may seem….Betty Friedan has already met her Creator and has rendered an account, and so has Helen Andelin. And guess whose book grosses more sales today?
    Women have been sold a bill of goods and they know it. We were told we could have it all and that we would be happier for it, and there are a bunch of lonely, bitter, broken-hearted women who followed like so many sheep. The older ones still are holding out, but their years are numbered. Their daughters are having second thoughts. Their granddaughters have seen it and are having none of it. They may still be somewhat feminist, but they were raised in daycare and won’t do that for their children. It will have to start with them seeing the value in being a stay-home Mom, and they are already doing that. From there, it will take time to swing back to no longer complaining about their lot in life, doing their chores cheerfully and reverencing their husbands as they ought, but it will happen. Even among relatively feminist people it is beginning to happen, just slowly.

    As for changing the culture to respecting boys and men for what they are, this is one reason homeschooling has taken off. My boys can do their work sitting at the table or flopped on their beds or flopped on the floor — I don’t really care as long as the work gets done. Then they go outside with sticks and start swinging at each other. One of my boys is one that somebody probably would have medicated. He taught himself to read when he was four. He would be bored stiff in a normal third grade classroom. He reads Jules Verne and J.R.R. Tolkien and is learning French and Italian with the software program we bought. Another of my boys is still a struggling reader, but he’s very good at math, and quite gifted artistically. He’d probably be in special ed if he were in school because he’s not quite up to par with reading. So there you have it.

    Save your boys. Keep them out of public school.

  36. One thing I’ve noticed after several years of participating in Catholic youth and young adult groups is that nice Catholic girls, even the most Traditionalist girls, are not immune to hypergamy. It’s amazing to watch. Most of them want to get married, and I see them talking among themselves about how beautiful so-and-so’s wedding was and how much they’re looking forward to marriage and how they’re certain God has created the perfect man for them somewhere, and all the while the nice Catholic boys are shuffling their feet, staring at the ground, working up the courage to say “hi.”

    I can’t really blame either the guys or the girls for acting the way they do. Catholic girls may find a practicing Catholic guy to be attractive but not necessarily arousing. Likewise, a lot of Catholic guys I know think that being good provider material who attends Mass every week and prays the rosary every day should be good enough. In a perfect world, that should be enough. Moreover, I can’t broach the subject of the Red Pill without eliciting their white knight tendencies. Some of them are open to it after a catastrophe but not before.

    I quickly gained a reputation as the resident bad boy once I joined up. Why? Because I took a shotgun approach to asking out girls. If one shot me down, I immediately moved on to the next. They’re good people.

  37. Elspeth

    I doubt it is that common. Being an unbeliever probably provides bad-boy cred when dealing with a religious woman that simply doesn’t exist when you reverse the genders. I could see religious men potentially marrying nonreligious women if they find religious women too unattainable, but I don’t think this would be too common.

    You’re right. it isn’t common for young Christian men to marry secular women straight from the world off the way some young Christian women do. But they are sometimes likely to forgo the diligence to choose a woman of stronger, more resolute faith in favor of one of lesser devotion if she’s prettier/hotter/more fun, etc. I’ve seen it several times.

    We are intimately acquainted with two such couples. One is divorced because he wasn’t home enough and she decided to get her attention needs met elsewhere so he ended it. The second husband complains to my husband quite regularly about his wife.

    So like I said, young Christian men don’t commonly marry unbelieving women. They almost always marry Christian women. Nemesis is right about that. I concur, but with a relevant caveat.

  38. So like I said, young Christian men don’t commonly marry unbelieving women. They almost always marry Christian women. Nemesis is right about that. I concur, but with a relevant caveat.

    Both sexes marry nominal believers, that much we agree on. And it seems as though we agree that very few Christian men marry non-believing women (I know of only one marriage that might fit the bill, and I’m not sure; the husband could have come to the faith after marrying) while a small but not insignificant number of Christian women marry non-believing men.

    That all leads to the question of why. Nemesis drove towards one theory of mine. But I would love to hear others.

  39. Shortly after I was received into the Church, I dated a non-believer. Two years later she was received into the Church. I asked her what made her enter. She said I was the first Catholic man she had ever met who took the faith seriously, and that inspired her to look at Catholicism seriously. We didn’t end up marrying, but there’s hope if you can’t find a nice Catholic girl.

  40. Elspeth

    I don’t think it’s bad boy cred. That’s overly simplistic. I’ll reserve further comment until you offer your post on the topic.

  41. mdavid

    DG, …very few Christian men marry non-believing women…but not insignificant number of Christian women marry non-believing men. That all leads to the question of why.

    This is easy to answer. Women are on the front lines of family, while a man is on the outskirts of family (he may not even live with them). But the woman must be part of the family, she has to be an integral part of it. There are tribes in Africa where the men away always return at a certain time so as not to interfere with their wife’s love life. These men are not attached to their family, they roam, and so do not invest in their children since they don’t know the true paternity anyway. And the resulting culture is chaos.

    I really think people would do well to read the book The Garbage Generation. It answers so many of these types of questions. Civilization is all about bringing men into the family and encouraging/bribing/forcing them to invest in children. In nature, men are not a natural part of family (they are merely a sperm donor). Remember, everywhere you see civilization, you see men pressed into family service, and you also see an altar to facilitate this process. So it’s clear why men can be irreligious yet women cannot be.

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