Since folks seem rather intent on going off-topic, I figured a post devoted to that purpose seems appropriate. Please continue any discussions from the old threads that weren’t relevant to those topics here. This will be a lightly moderated but I would ask folks to show at least some restraint.
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Meta
Donal Graeme · Wisdom cries out in the street… who shall listen?
Donal Graeme 
I was playing along with the bad 90s movie theme.
Comment number 500! That’s gotta be a record here. Who knew such a post could do that, lol
Half of them are mine.
Half of them are mine
LOL, probably. 🙂
Though even cutting 500 in half is still pretty impressive for a post without a theme…
@ gertrude
No, you don’t have to approach and start the conversation, although that will help of course.
Act coy and keep dropping your eyes to your feet?
He needs to cut it out with the themes. You gotta love how he scrambles to write these really in depth articles, and no one comments. And then he’s all like, “OK, you can comment on here, guys, about anything you want for the sake of topic coherency.”
And it takes-off!
Feminine Not Feminine
“All of which is to prove that sexual attraction CAN grow out of nothing…Apart from women who are primarily attracted to looks over anything else, it typically won’t be instant for us.”
I’ve heard of and seen this phenomenon happen. I remember seeing a special on Alan Jackson in which his wife stated that before she and Jackson had started dating, he had asked her out a couple of times, and she had turned him down, but then she accepted when he did something as simple as parting his hair differently. (Mind you, this was well before he became famous. In fact, she was a big part of the reason he became famous by giving his tape to the right guy at the right time).
In my own life, I once gave up on a woman for whom I had pined away for the previous two years. Unlike most women who have rejected me, she genuinely was always a good friend to me, but it hurt too much for me to stick around in her life, so I didn’t. (I had stopped asking her out long before, but I completely removed myself from her life after two years, not because of anything she had done wrong or hurtful, but because I was just exhausted from feeling the pain of being near her and not being able to be with her in the way I wanted).
Not long after I stopped coming around, though, she got with a different friend of hers who came back into her life at just the right time so it seemed. I don’t believe she had had attraction for him prior to that, because I had heard from other credible sources that she had said that a relationship between her and her now husband would NEVER happen. Well, obviously, it did happen, and they seem really great together, because they’re both good people who want to serve God and others. I sometimes wonder, though, if I might have been the right guy if I could have tolerated that friend zone situation a little longer.
Anyway, I don’t understand what the women I’m often really into and am subsequently rejected by are attracted to, because it seems like they could get that high value LAMPS guy anytime they want, but they don’t date much, if at all. Then, they just end up marrying some average guy in terms of the aforementioned LAMPS model, anyway. It seems to be a timing issue more than anything else.
TL, DR paragraph: My thinking about Feminine’s statements above is that as long as a woman doesn’t find a man hideous, then that man’s personality attributes have the potential to change things in the future, as personality may not be known for a while. Obviously, this outcome does happen, as we’ve all seen it happen. I’m just not sure how often it happens, though. My hope is that it will happen with one who’s the most worth it to me.
ehh…*Feminine But Not Feminist
Does anyone have thoughts on this guy’s experience? (If it’s too long, just watch the 5:30 – 7:00 section.)
HF and FBNF are like the opposite-gender versions of one another. Sorta. Ish. It strikes me that you both have the same view of romance.
I entirely disagree with that approach, but I guess it’s whatever people want.
Anyhow… on to the thing I was putting-off doing…
Surprise… I’m actually NOT a romantic? Hm. Weird.
@FBNF The concept of beauty in a woman, or more specifically referred to “inner beauty” sometimes is a feminist invention used to justify the pedestalization, deification, and worship of women. It is linked to the nature and glory of God, so doctrinally (as a bride of Christ), she is perceived as “the glory of God incarnate”.
And what I wrote is true, no matter how much you or any other woman here wants to deny it. The only reason most women who want to be married aren’t is staring them right back in the mirror.
*most* women. I think if you want to know how you rate, show your picture to some of these men. It’s helpful for understanding where you are in the whole dynamic.
I actually think that it’s all about the basics: fundamental beliefs And then attraction. And then love is kind of pointless. It doesn’t have to be there at the alter. Nope. It’s an action that grows during marriage. It’s about hot sex and shared beliefs.
Well, it was fun. I’m not actually a Christian, so I don’t think I’ll be around here any more.
One of the best set of comments I have read in a forum such as this. Thankyou all.
@ Donal and Tru and Everybody:
Tru says, “Well, it was fun. I’m not actually a Christian, so I don’t think I’ll be around here any more.”
After all her talk on multiple blogs these past few weeks and she comes out with this! Young men who are reading this blog please for your sakes and your future children’s sakes learn from this. Be very careful who you choose to marry. I’m a baby boomer. When I was young we weren’t taught anything about women who are wolfs in sheep’s clothing. You must defend your selves and future children by not marrying a wolf. The wolves are very manipulative and destructive. Be careful and may God protect you while you are in this world.
Seriously Tru could be a 46 year old man and it wouldn’t make a difference. All you have to go on is what an individual says. You really shouldn’t trust anyone you meet right off the bat especially on the Web, that is how u get catfished.
I’m sure your parents taught you not to trust strangers and they didn’t just mean men.
Tru
I entirely disagree with that approach, but I guess it’s whatever people want.
I don’t want it, and I don’t think it’s ideal. The “it” that I’m talking about is waiting for a woman to like me back. I’d rather she be attracted from the beginning, but that doesn’t seem to happen with the women I’m most into yet.
I’m not sure Tru ever claimed to be a Christian. I thought she just claimed to go to church, which I still believe is true. Some people just go to church for the social aspects of it.
@ Gert:
“Selection includes deciding to talk to someone. By the act of approaching, you have selected them to at least strike up a conversation with. This hair splitting is maddening. Is a girl supposed to lock eyes with you and bite her lip or something? Then would you take the risk of inconveniencing yourselves to approach and say hello? If you can’t deal with a rejection from some random girl, how will you deal with the slings and arrows of the world?”
There’s no hair splitting. Again, it’s a suggestion that a girl make herself open to being approached. It’s telling you to put down your protection shields. It’s a gentle suggestion that a woman not come off as either fearful, angry, cold or bitchy, if she wants men to approach her. A man should not risk pushing past protection shields and a cold, distant exterior for the chance that maybe she really is, or kinda could be, attracted. And it’s not about fear of rejection; it’s about whether an approach might be fruitful. Men approach when there’s a chance of success, not when there’s no or very low chance of success.
You’re telling men they have to do all the work, take all the risk, bear all the costs. Men are saying, uh, if you want to be approached, then you need to do some –SOME—of the work. You at the very least need to make it easier for men to do that work, take that risk, bear that cost. But you’re balking at doing even that meager amount. If you persist in it, then you’ll get what you deserve.
“Every woman who puts herself out there and makes herself known will that is even remotely attractive will have men raining down from the sky and approaching her, asking her out, seeking her commitment every day. True fact.
“The fact that women choose to not put themselves out there and make themselves known is what keeps it from happening. Not doing it will only eliminate a woman from contention, unless she is extremely attractive. True fact, again.
“I say it again, any woman that’s at least a 4 could be married within 6 months if she were to take responsibility for her own part in seeking a husband, especially if she were to drop the feminist teaching that says the man pursues and therefore she must become part of the furniture.”
Pasted here again for emphasis.
Ladies, you need to read this. Then read it again. Then read it a third time. Then go, and do likewise.
You have not because you ask not. You have not because you won’t do simple things like smile or say “hi. How are you today?” to a guy you find attractive.
No one here is telling you to “approach”. We’re telling you to MAKE IT EASY FOR MEN TO APPROACH.
No one here is telling you to approach “strange” men. We’re telling you to make it easy for men WHO YOU’RE ATTRACTED TO to approach.
No one here is telling you to take on the male role in dating or meeting the opposite sex. We’re telling you to MAKE IT JUST A LITTLE BIT EASIER, LESS RISKY AND LESS COSTLY for men to do what they need to do.
No one here is telling you to do ANYTHING other than help this process along.
@ LGR:
“Will you and the other men at least acknowledge that this works the other way too? Maybe why the single men don’t get the virginal submissive girl is because you are not attractive enough to draw that. Likewise, if you want a woman, you have to do some work and that includes making approaches yourself. If you cannot handle that, resign yourself now to being a 50 year old virgin and save yourself the pain.”
No question about it – the world is full of unattractive men. The difference is that men do go out and approach but are going about it the wrong way. Many such men work and work to prove themselves “worthy” to a woman who is “meh” about them. And then when he does “win” her over (heh, as if), he has to spend his entire life proving himself to her every single day. If he does anything to let his “attractiveness” slip, he’s shown the door.
And, men are continuing to fail because they approach women who give them no IOIs. They are also continuing to fail because they’re not told to improve themselves; they’re just told to get out there and prove themselves to women who aren’t attracted to them.
Men are NOT here saying they don’t want to do any work to get women. It’s the other way around – women are here saying not only that they don’t want to do anything to get men; but also that they shouldn’t have to.
Another thing that men here are saying is: If I have to do everything to get a woman, if I have to do all the work, take all the risk, bear all the costs, then I won’t do it.
So, LGR, these men are not saying “I just want a woman to come to me without my doing anything”. They’re saying no thanks, because it’s not worth the effort.
If anyone around here wants a free lunch, wants something for nothing, wants attractive men without having to do anything or take any risks, it’s the ladies.
“Men approach when there’s a chance of success, not when there’s no or very low chance of success. ”
Like this:
“And then when he does “win” her over (heh, as if), he has to spend his entire life proving himself to her every single day. If he does anything to let his “attractiveness” slip, he’s shown the door.”
That’s cause its contrived attraction that is not authentic. Its not bio attraction. If he has to keep proving himself there is no attraction, just a big façade and that is why it is and feels like so much work to keep it up.
“That’s cause its contrived attraction that is not authentic. Its not bio attraction. If he has to keep proving himself there is no attraction, just a big façade and that is why it is and feels like so much work to keep it up.”
Exactly, and that’s why the men are saying to the women here, if you want men to approach, if you want something that’s actually going to work, YOU HAVE TO SHOW ATTRACTION WITH AN IOI. That’s all that’s being said.
You guys are insanely frustrating its like your shouting across a canyon yelling at each other to build a bridge.
Your saying the same thing from different directions. We are all scared ,confused ,and horny. We all want love, respect, and someone we can trust who isn’t God or family.
We have all been hurt, because someone did something wrong and we took the damage.
So in honor of all our pain and disappointment lets be friends lets try to respect each other and love each other and pray for each other so we have the peace that is our right as children of God.
I’ll say one last thing on this. I’m going to be blunt, straight and honest here.
I completely fail to understand what is so damn difficult about a woman smiling at a man she is attracted to. I do not see any reason whatsoever why a woman cannot take on a generally pleasant, cheerful demeanor when interacting with other human beings. I completely fail to see why a woman who finds a man attractive gets the vapors when it is suggested that she might say to him, “Hi. My name is ______. How are you?”
What is so damn hard about this? Why can’t you do a simple thing like smile? Why can’t you go up to an attractive man and say “Hi” to him?
What the hell is wrong with any of that? What the hell is wrong with doing a little something to grease the skids, to make this process easier?
What’s wrong with it is that the ladies here don’t want love and marriage. Or they don’t want it badly enough.
They don’t want to do what it will take. They don’t want to take even very low risks. They absolutely REFUSE to invest even an infinitesimally small amount of effort – the effort even of a smile, a glance, a “Hi, how are you?” These are nothing. They cost nothing. They risk next to nothing. These are one step above common courtesy that human beings extend to each other going through life. But they won’t do even that much for the chance of meeting an attractive man or making something happen with a potentially compatible man.
Ok, so you said “hi” to that attractive man and nothing happened. SO WHAT? Either he’s an idiot or he’s not attracted. SO WHAT? Men have this happen to them 10 times a freaking day. And you can’t do this even ONCE A WEEK?
They want the benefits with none of the obligations and burdens. They don’t want to get better, they don’t want to improve their lives, they don’t want more from life. They want God to just drop high status, good looking, assertive men in their laps.
You’re all wasting your time in the manosphere. Stop reading here, stop commenting here. If you have blogs, you should shutter them. You should just stick with your jobs and resign yourselves to the fact that marriage isn’t in your futures. If you aren’t willing to do even a few tiny things to meet men, to help the process along, then you should really just withdraw from this aspect of life completely.
Ok, I wasn’t taking part in this part of the discussion, but I’m going to now:
Deti, there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing any of those things, and I don’t believe any of the women who have commented on this so far have said that there is. I could be mistaken, but I understood them to be saying that while it’s the woman’s job to be open to approach and all that you just described, that it’s the man’s job to do the asking out (aka, to be the one to lead and choose when to take the next step in the process).
Also, you’re projecting male attraction onto women and missing a crucial disconnect: if a woman isn’t giving off any IOIs at all, then it could be because she’s not attracted to the man YET. You men are attracted in a matter of seconds because you are primarily attracted to looks, which are obvious without you even having to know (or even have ever spoken to) the woman. Woman on the other hand have to see more than just what a man looks like (PSALM!!! Not just L!!!) before she can be attracted (apart from those who’s primary attractant is Looks). For this reason we are usually indifferent to most men upon first sight. You keep saying that we need to beat men over the head with IOIs so they will be comfortable approaching us… but if we have never met the man before, we likely don’t know if we’re attracted or not (i.e. indifference) since we likely haven’t gotten to see his PSAM qualities YET, meaning it would be lying to him to beat him with IOIs. Showing common courtesy (i.e. being pleasant, warm, kind, smiling upon approach, willing to engage in conversation) is one thing; trying to demonstrate attraction to a man you aren’t (yet) attracted to is another.
@ ballista
That definition you gave of so called “inner beauty” is NOT what I was saying at all, and you know it. So the pious insults were completely unnecessary.
And you have a knack for taking the most extreme end of a spectrum and running with it, calling it “fact” in every instance. Like with the whole bit about any woman being able to be married in 6 months to any one of the multitudes of men that are raining down on her every.single.day that are trying so hard for her commitment. You should really stop telling us women that we know less about what it’s like to be a woman than you, who have never walked in our shoes, do. Maybe in a perfect Marketplace you would be correct about that extreme end of the spectrum. But NOT in this broken one.
“I could be mistaken, but I understood them to be saying that while it’s the woman’s job to be open to approach and all that you just described, that it’s the man’s job to do the asking out”
With due respect, you are very mistaken. The ladies here have been pretty uniform on this topic that they should not have to do anything. Shouldn’t have to smile, shouldn’t have to look at the man, shouldn’t have to try to make eye contact, shouldn’t have to say anything. They are uniformly of the claim that a woman need not do anything even to make it easier for an attractive man to do the asking out.
“Also, you’re projecting male attraction onto women and missing a crucial disconnect”
No, I’m not. You’re going on and on about the timing of the attraction, or WHEN she “realizes” she’s attracted. A couple of things about this:
1. Your continually going back to this notion that women aren’t immediately attracted by Looks. That’s BS. Sometimes they ARE. If they weren’t, one night stands would never happen, and there would never be anyone sexing up each other in bar bathrooms. You need to get over this notion that female attraction never ever happens instantaneously. It’s just false.
2. For those times when you have to “get to know” a guy before you start showering the IOIs: Fine. Watch him from afar for a week or so until you “decide” you’re “attracted” and then bring it. You’ll just have to take your chances that someone else hasn’t already beat you to him.
This is not difficult. You’re overcomplicating this and making it far, far harder than it has to be.
I know for a fact that women are immediately physically attracted to a man if the man is hot enough. If a women will act upon that physical attraction with an IOI is another question, depending on the specific woman. I imagine if the attraction is high enough, then most every woman will do at least something to signal, even if it is just eye contact. I still say that eye contact and a modest smile and even perhaps a “hello” would suffice. The “hello” needn’t always happen, but the eye contact and the modest smile outta signal enough interest. If a man responds to the eye contact and smile with a “hello”, then the woman outta help with the opening verbal discourse. Some men are very timid when first conversing with an attractive woman. This timidity should not be mistakenly taken for being too beta. The second encounter, or first date, the man just might feel much more comfortable due to the woman’s choice to help with the initial conversing and both will therefore enjoy that first date all the more.
In a nut shell, help one another feel comfortable. Our society is so full of mistrust and hostility, it is hard to reach out.
“I know for a fact that women are immediately physically attracted to a man if the man is hot enough.”
Word. This times 1000.
I’ve seen it happen. I’ve been there when it’s happened. I’ve been on the receiving end of it when it’s happened.
“Like with the whole bit about any woman being able to be married in 6 months to any one of the multitudes of men that are raining down on her every.single.day that are trying so hard for her commitment.”
If she is being proactive, taking action to meet men, putting herself in situations where she will meet marriage minded men, giving IOIs to the attractive men, yes.
Ballista’s correct about this. I’ve never once – NOT ONCE – seen a woman who wanted to get married who wasn’t able to do it. Never once. I’ve seen ugly women, fat women, uneducated women, homely women, women with not a whole hell of a lot going for them – every single one of them, able to find a man willing to wife it up ONCE THEY PUT THEIR MINDS TO FINDING SUCH A MAN, and then ACTUALLY DID THINGS to find him and lock him down. How much simpler it is for a fit woman, a pretty woman, an intelligent woman, a beautiful woman, to find such a man.
@deti
Here’s the crux of the matter.
I would say the majority of the men here know what they must do to attract a wife and what they need to work on.
When is the last time you’ve heard single females admit and list things they need to work on to be a good wife or attract a ‘quality’ man?
Rhetorical question obviously. You don’t need to answer it because the answer is quite clear.
Also, note the resistance coming from ALL the women as we keep restating the answer (not just in this thread but in a few others) – that “ask, seek, knock” applies equally to them. But the answer for why the resistance exists is out there too (as I’ve been dealing with on my blog as of late, links from here on tomorrow’s post, btw).
ballista:
“that “ask, seek, knock” applies equally to them.”
Hell, I’m not even telling women to ask, seek or knock. They don’t need to ask; they need to make clear they’re willing to BE ASKED. They do need to do some seeking. They don’t have to knock; they just need to be standing by the damn door when it comes and be willing to open the door.
I have never resisted the notion that young women need to be approachable, open, friendly, or send out IOI’s. I have only rejected the idea of the woman chasing men, in an attempt to upend what I always understood to be the natural order, so to speak.
I’m the last person who would denounce a woman making it cleat she’s interested. At least not witj a straight face. It seemed to me that you all were indicating more than that and frankly, I don’t think most chaste women are remotely equipped to be the ones in pursuit. But you know, not everyone is entitled to a husband or wife, nor is everyone obligated to marry at 21.
There really is sometjing to be said for tjings coming together at their appointed time.
@thedeti
I use that phraseology because it should be easily recognizable that it’s a Scripture principle we’re mentioning. But I can go on…
ASK: Who are the single men and where are they?
SEEK: Seek them out and be socially available (don’t tether to friends, drink, or to the cell phone or tablet).
KNOCK: Be around the man, be willing to talk to him in a pleasant, cheerful manner, and IOI them if interested.
This stuff isn’t too hard. It’s not that they can’t do it, they refuse to do it.
Elspeth:
I think there are times when a woman can ask a man out on a date. I see no reason why not. That’s not “chasing”. “Chasing” is a woman throwing herself at a man.
Look — this is a messed up SMP and MMP. You have hordes and tons and scads of “good Christian men” that women say (SAY) they want, and those men are deeply, deeply confused. They have pastors and teachers telling them that women are EXACTLY the same as men. They have their parents telling them “Just be NICE NICE NICE”. They have “pastors” like Mark Driscoll literally SCREAMING at them about how they’re the scum of the earth. They have the media telling them hawtness is absolutely everything when it comes to intersexual relations. They have to deal with a culture of sex harassment claims and false rape claims.
So yeah, to at least some extent, if you women want those “Good Christian men”, then you will have to go out and get them. And yeah, in some cases, you’re going to have to ASK THEM OUT.
@ Elspeth
Sure, but that’s not what gertrude and Mrs C seem to be saying.
Besides, there is no “natural order” to men chasing women for marriage. Men chase women for sex. Women chase men for commitment. That’s the true natural order. When you combine the two into one in the form of chastity followed by marriage, then both should participate in the chasing.
Randomly thought of a word, don’t know if it pertains to people here:
Stubborn
@ ballista
What’s this “resistance from ALL the women” stuff? Name one comment where I said we don’t and shouldn’t have to do anything. And don’t take it out of context either, please.
I think I can see where everyone is talking past each other. This whole conversation started somewhere way back talking about women being able to have instant sexual attraction to a man and deti saying that if a woman feels that she has to send out IOI’s that a three year old would get. She would have to smack him in the face with it.
The women hear that as you have to show him signals that you’re sexually attracted. I’ve been off the dating market for a long time but I am married. There’s a difference between showing you’re friendly and open to being approached and smacking someone in the face with IOI’s to show your sexually attracted.
I can give my husband a friendly smile when he comes home from work but that is very different than an alluring smile to show him something else. Sexual IOI’s (getting physically close and staying there, talk with some innuendo, an arched eyebrow or a hand moving up and down his arm or back) is very different from IOI’s showing you are friendly and would welcome an approach.
Talking about women who have thrown themselves at men and having sex in a public bathroom to prove that women can have sexual attraction off the bat doesn’t mean anything to the Christian woman looking for a marriage partner. Whether she feels sexual attraction or not, she’s not going to smack you in the face with sexual IOI’s. She should be friendly and approachable and if the guy isn’t a total stranger, then she can even say “HI, Nice to meet you.”
Deti wants a guarantee of definite sexual attraction in the first day or two or he moves on. He’s evaluated that that is what he needs or requires for himself based on his experiences and his age. I don’t necessarily think it’s the best advice to all other men given that Christian marriage minded women have to know a lot more about a man than just the fact she’s sexually attracted before she will let him know that. To do anything else is unwise for this kind of woman and unfair to the guy. To let him know you are sexually attracted and then have to leave him after a date or two because other things don’t line up with your values is unkind.
So I took your advice, guys.
Today I smiled at a guy that dropped out of the sky. He then said hi to me and we had a brief conversation, which went well. He gave me his cell phone and told me to dial my cell phone so he would have my phone number. The good news is that now I expect to be married within 6 months. I would like to thank you guys for all your advice and confirm that everything you have said is -100% correct. I will be moving along now since you good Christian men have helped me solve my problem and I am a one man woman.
Mrs. C:
Deti’s advice is certainly more applicable to an older woman than one who is 20.
Older men are certainly more cynical than younger ones, at least in my experience. An older guy is less likely to tolerate ambiguity than a younger one, because:
1) We’ve been taken for a ride before
2) We have less time to mess around.
Women can afford to be more coy at 20 than 45. That is for sure…
@ gertrude:
Your next step is to make him a samwich.
There might just be nothing that single women can do at this point. If you weren’t set-up for marriage young, tough shit.
Hank-
If they make it to 70 still married, I’ll believe somewhat.
Otherwise, No FREAKING WAY!!!
Just what in the he]] is she doing for him???
He wouldn’t have cared if she didn’t hyperinflate herself. She’s just okay. She acts like she’s so awesome for having curly hair.