End Of The Year Off-Topic Post

Since folks seem rather intent on going off-topic, I figured a post devoted to that purpose seems appropriate. Please continue any discussions from the old threads that weren’t relevant to those topics here. This will be a lightly moderated but I would ask folks to show at least some restraint.

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724 Comments

Filed under Red Pill

724 responses to “End Of The Year Off-Topic Post

  1. Novaseeker

    Didn’t you contradict yourself there, Nova?

    I don’t think I did.

    Most men are blue pill. That doesn’t mean they are completely happy, but that they are blue pill. These guys obviously won’t express any red pill ideas in conversations, but typically also don’t express any real discontentment with their marriages or wives in more casual conversations, either. It just doesn’t generally get expressed by men at all other than at times of crisis.

    At the same time, there is a small portion of the men who are red pill. That portion is growing, without doubt, but it is still much smaller, I think, than the blue pill portion. The point of my first post was that you don’t actually know if the guys in your office are red pill thinkers or not, because if they are, you would likely never know because they won’t express it. They will seem like they are blue pill like everyone else in the workplace (the American workplace is, in almost all cases, the absolute epitome of the blue pill in pretty much every way).

    So, I don’t think it contradicts, really. It’s both true that most men are blue pill and that most red pill men are not going to speaking about the red pill openly to work colleagues of either sex. It makes the world seem more blue pill than it is, slightly, but the world is still mostly blue pill. And the guys who are discontent and blue pill (still) are going to be just as restrained from expressing their discontent as the red pill guys are about expressing the red pill and for mostly the same reason — it has no advantage for them, and only disadvantage for them, in that context. So in the workplace, all the men seem fine, happy, well-adjusted, blue pill American men (other than the alpha males who stand out). Underneath that, there is discontent among the BPs that is not being expressed, and RPism among the RPs that is also not being expressed. The key point of all of this being: don’t take what men express in the workplace (or otherwise openly in social settings) as an accurate read on their level of contentment or their actual views on anything at all relating to these kinds of topics, because expression of both are very taboo in our culture, and have no advantages (and only disadvantages) for the person engaging in the expression.

  2. Mrs. C

    @Nova ” At some stage that may shift such that the metaphor no longer applies — I sense that among the *younger* guys (say 25 and below), there is a big shift taking place, but it remains to be seen how his plays out in the coming years. ” AND ” Almost all RP men are disillusioned — that’s the essence of the red pill to begin with — but not all are bitter and disdainful. The latter really do depend on what the individual decides to do with his new appreciation for reality. But, yes, most guys are blue pill and do not see things as they are — that’s completely true.

    Yes, deti’s point about reading the comments here (MY meaning of here is the general Christian manosphere, not just this blog or comment thread) to get an idea about what men think about women is skewed from the general population right now. That’s not to say that the extreme won’t become more mainstream over the years and like you said, it remains to be seen.

    “Some guys do have a hard time accepting that women are what they are, and become disdainful but not all are bitter and disdainful…… The latter really do depend on what the individual decides to do with his new appreciation for reality.”

    Yes, not all but there is a certain tone of disdain and also comments that certainly seem to reflect it. (It could also just be me picking that up as a result of the blunt honesty expressed combined with some of the comments from those who are bitter) I’ve said that I understand why this would be from the men who post here and why they hold this POV so I’m not really sure how that is a shaming attack. (Not that that was your comment). Also there is the other problem that as Christians, for those that are, about it being unwise to hold to bitterness because it affects your ability to keep growing in holiness. It’s not a good for the soul. (I’m only talking about bitterness not a righteous anger of reality.)

    @deti ” I do note, however, you took offense to the descriptions of women while saying nothing about the descriptions of men. ”

    Well, the specific topic was about “what men think about women” but yes, there is no shortage of disdain among most women about men. Especially those who have bought feminism hook, line and sinker.

    Also earlier I said to Tru “If you have such a low opinion of the men and women here, why are you here? that was in response to her comment “Nobody wants these men. They’re grumpy assholes.” in addition to her comments to MomintheShoe. That wasn’t obvious what I was referring to but it was her specific comment that caused my observation and question.

  3. Another question, Nova.

    Men generally fall into one of six camps: (1) married (either happy or unhappy not really relevant, because they are married and are in “married mode” which in almost all cases precludes any kind of engagement on these issues), (2) benefiting from the system (i.e., the ones who are getting laid more than at any time since our species stopped swinging from the trees) so why change it, (3) getting the occasional lay, combined with some combination of porn/x-box/ESPN/beer/bros so as to make like not only tolerable but generally enjoyable, (4) divorced and also not in either categories (2) or (3) (some divorced guys move into one of those categories, and so should be counted there and not in category (4)), (5) celibate for religious/moral reasons (haven’t found the right woman to marry yet) or (6) incel. That’s basically the landscape of guys.

    If (4) don’t fall into categories (2) and (3), where do they fit at all? Who are these men? And as far as (2) is concerned, what about sexually successful men who oppose feminist ideology and disapprove of current social trends? Let’s not pretend they don’t exist.

  4. Mrs. C:

    I say again: I expressed no disdain about women or men. I merely made truthful and accurate observations about most of them. What you’re seeing is blunt honesty, nothing more, nothing less.

  5. These guys obviously won’t express any red pill ideas in conversations, but typically also don’t express any real discontentment with their marriages or wives in more casual conversations, either.

    Point taken. But the argument presented here is that they don’t even publicly express disagreement with any feminist policy either. And we’re not just talking about married men. That leaves us with two possibilities: they are all blue pill, or they’re scared to speak out.

  6. All in all, Nova, I’m not disagreeing with your arguments, but the fundamental issue is that there’s simply no data to go on. It’s not a unique situation. What % of Soviet citizens disapproved of the system in, say, 1982? We’ll never know. What % of American men are blue pill today? We’ll never know either.

  7. fringed

    Mrs. C:
    “Also there is the other problem that as Christians, for those that are, about it being unwise to hold to bitterness because it affects your ability to keep growing in holiness. It’s not a good for the soul.”

    Excellent point! I’ve been convicted of this for a few years now. But the anger is not only about the negativity women have for men, but it is the blue pill ignorance that men have in churches. For a short while I attended a men’s ministry at a large local church. The men were all so silly. They each acted like men were to blame for all the ills of society and women were always the victims of men; even when women sinned it was the original fault of a man that must have led the poor woman astray. I wanted to call them all a bunch of “pussies”, but I didn’t. I stopped attending. It is not just at the work place that red pill men have to keep their thoughts to themselves, but at churches, with family, and most all other venues. Which is why I come to the manosphere. This is the only place I can read and converse about this stuff.

  8. Novaseeker

    If (4) don’t fall into categories (2) and (3), where do they fit at all? Who are these men? And as far as (2) is concerned, what about sexually successful men who oppose feminist ideology and disapprove of current social trends? Let’s not pretend they don’t exist.

    (4)’s who are not in (2) or (3) are often incels as well, but I think they are in a different category because they used to be married, so they weren’t always incel. There are also some men in the category you suggest — men who are beneficiaries of the system yet do not like it. I do not think there are that many of them, but perhaps they deserve their own category as well if it makes the analysis more useful.

    But the argument presented here is that they don’t even publicly express disagreement with any feminist policy either. And we’re not just talking about married men. That leaves us with two possibilities: they are all blue pill, or they’re scared to speak out.

    It’s a mixture of both. You’re correct that we don’t know how many are in which camp (blue pill vs quiet), but I do think that most men above 30 are still blue pill. The younger you go, the less blue pill they are, but it also remains to be seen if that will change as the younger crew ages out.

  9. Novaseeker

    Also there is the other problem that as Christians, for those that are, about it being unwise to hold to bitterness because it affects your ability to keep growing in holiness.

    Very true, but also true for secular people, for different reasons. Bitterness holds you back in life from whatever you are trying to pursue, really.

  10. Tru

    It’s the same as the women not liking that men don’t care about “who we are on the inside.”

    Nobody cares about that, you know? Everybody’s one of a million. Shocker.

    The moral of the story is, “don’t waste your time on people who pretend that they do.” Otherwise, you’ll get screwed-over.

  11. Tru

    At first, it’s going to be about shallow stuff: how people look, how they act, sexual chemistry, etc.

    After years of being married, if you’ve found a good spouse, it’ll be more than that, because that’s who you built your life with. But you still have to maintain it. You can’t let yourselves go, and you have to maintain your sex life.

  12. Hank Flanders

    Tru

    I can tell some of the men on here simple things they can do to improve their attractiveness. I wonder if anyone’s interested?

    Sure, why not?

  13. Hank Flanders

    And if it’s

    1) Be handsome
    2) Be attractive
    3) Don’t be unattractive

    I’m already familiar.

  14. Tru

    Hank: I’d say for you. be more decisive and care less about pleasing people. If I ask you, for instance, is being offensive bad, you’d probably answer “not always.” The answer is “never.” By existing, we offend people.

    Don’t wait for someone to change her mind. If you’re attracted to them, you can check-back on them every once and a while. I don’t see why not.

    When you are attracted to someone, do not send half-signals of interest. Be all-in or do nothing. If they aren’t interested, walk away and act like it’s no big deal. Tell them you hope they find what they’re looking for, dear, and to have a nice day.

    Whatever you do, don’t be that groupie who gets along with everyone.

    It’s probably easier said than done. What’s easy is rejecting that other people’s opinions always matter. It’s easy to entirely leave a social group that likes to play games, because you know it’s stupid. It’s easy to start over. It’s not easy to instinctively know how to handle situations. Not all men are natural red pills. You can peruse PUA forums to get a better idea of what works specifically. Small doses of misogyny help to maintain frame.

    For you, I’d say start-out being comfortable with who you are. There’s nothing wrong with you. The conclusions that you reach, based on experience, are not bad. There’s nothing wrong with whatever views you hold. If they do not work for you, discard them, but if other people are judging where you’re coming from, they’re not necessarily right.

    Usually, society picks a few people to cast their opinions on everyone else. These people aren’t smart, but they think they’re always right, because people constantly thumb-up what they have to say. A lot of them happen to be women. Let society do whatever the hell it wants. Let it burn. Make an appearance, as needed, but don’t let society put you in its frame.

  15. Tru

    Donal: These 800 or so comments are like my gift to you for trafficking my blog. 🙂 The manosphere’s a real bitch to get into.

  16. It’s a mixture of both. You’re correct that we don’t know how many are in which camp (blue pill vs quiet), but I do think that most men above 30 are still blue pill.

    Indeed. On the other hand, these aren’t the only camps. I don’t think it’s accurate to neatly divide the male population to red pillers and blue piller. Human behavior is more complex than that. I’ve noticed that many people have an attitude that is a strange mix of blue pill and red pill convictions.

  17. Hank Flanders

    Tru

    Let society do whatever the hell it wants. Let it burn.

    “Some men just want to watch the world burn.” – Alfred

    Haha, thanks for the detailed answer, Tru. I’ll take those things into consideration. I actually thought you were going to say something like, “learn to play guitar” or “get a motorcycle,” although those are probably not bad things to do either.

    Anyway, I expected a little more commentary on the examples I put forth up-thread of women who married men they weren’t necessarily crazy about at first. I figured those in the manosphere would consider those guys beta (or whatever).

    Even those instances notwithstanding, though, it is interesting the ease with which marriage comes for some people. I’ve known or known of many people who didn’t date around much or at all before they met the person they would eventually marry. They just met that one special person in their late teens or early 20s (or maybe late 20s) and got married. They didn’t need any special techniques or knowledge in order to make it happen. They also didn’t seem to need any special knowledge in order to have good marriages, because they married someone of high moral character (or so it seems for now). Like I said, I used to read Doc Love and David DeAngelo’s stuff, so I’ve never been above reading about techniques, but fruit is fruit, and actual results are better than theory.

    Now, sure, I could find someone and get married. That’s not the issue. The issue is finding someone I want to marry and who wants to marry me and having these things happen at the same time. That’s the one part that’s been eluding me and just seems to come easier for some people for some reason that I haven’t figured out yet.

  18. Elspeth

    Got an interesting call this morning from a friend wanting to know if our oldest has a boyfriend. Apparently she is friends with a devout family whose son is finishing up at Local U, and when she got their family Christmas photo this year and saw his picture (Funny to hear this middle aged white woman going on about how handsome this young black man was to her, LOL)., she wondered if she should find out 1) how closely he is walking with the Lord and 2) if he is on the market for a wife.

    I thought about Mom in a shoe’s comments about her young relative, who sounded a lot like my girl. Not at all classically beautiful. Attractive enough, I suppose (she looks like a lot me and I married well enough). But she is a smart, devout, chaste, responsible, competent, has the making of an excellent homemaker.

    Of course I told my friend she could do the recon but to do nothing else until I had a chance to speak with my husband, who was not available when she called. We’ll see what God has in store, if anything.

  19. Elspeth

    Oh, should note that husband said this is pointless until there is confirmation of a strong faith walk and a vision for the future. Brown skin and good looks are hardly worth getting excited about.

  20. That well may be true Elspeth. But in the past, such networked connections were the norm. They were the back-bone of the community and marriage. I’m hopeful that this connection works out for your family. Its good to hear when they still happen.

  21. Pingback: Feminism: Unleashing The Feral Woman | The Society of Phineas

  22. Novaseeker

    I’ve known or known of many people who didn’t date around much or at all before they met the person they would eventually marry. They just met that one special person in their late teens or early 20s (or maybe late 20s) and got married. They didn’t need any special techniques or knowledge in order to make it happen. They also didn’t seem to need any special knowledge in order to have good marriages, because they married someone of high moral character (or so it seems for now).

    Stay tuned.

    But in general, some people are luckier than others. Meeting people is a numbers game, and therefore there’s a lot of luck involved. And some people are going to end up with bad luck, and be the person standing when the music stops. It has always been that way — in earlier eras the people standing would go to monasteries and convents and the problem was solved. Not so much today, although there is X-box for men and Haagen Dazs for women.

  23. mdavid

    HF, They just met that one special person in their late teens or early 20s (or maybe late 20s) and got married.

    There is probably nothing more damaging to the truth about sexual relationships than this way of thinking. There is on “one special person”. There are merely people near one’s SMV who are also willing to give it a go. My best guess is that there are twice as many men as women who fit this category in the West.

  24. Hank Flanders

    mdavid

    There is probably nothing more damaging to the truth about sexual relationships than this way of thinking. There is on “one special person”.

    In the grand scheme of things, this may be true, but my point is that they were able to find someone who was special to them.

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