Tradition Thursday- #3

This is the third post examining St. Clement’s letter to the Corinthians. Just to warn you, this is a long post indeed. It focuses on the heart of St. Clement’s message, but a few parts are included for other reasons as well. To conclude:

Chapter 37. Christ is Our Leader, and We His Soldiers.

Let us then, men and brethren, with all energy act the part of soldiers, in accordance with His holy commandments. Let us consider those who serve under our generals, with what order, obedience, and submissiveness they perform the things which are commanded them. All are not prefects, nor commanders of a thousand, nor of a hundred, nor of fifty, nor the like, but each one in his own rank performs the things commanded by the king and the generals. The great cannot subsist without the small, nor the small without the great. There is a kind of mixture in all things, and thence arises mutual advantage. Let us take our body for an example. The head is nothing without the feet, and the feet are nothing without the head; yea, the very smallest members of our body are necessary and useful to the whole body. But all work harmoniously together, and are under one common rule for the preservation of the whole body.

Chapter 38. Let the Members of the Church Submit Themselves, and No One Exalt Himself Above Another.

Let our whole body, then, be preserved in Christ Jesus; and let every one be subject to his neighbour, according to the special gift bestowed upon him. Let the strong not despise the weak, and let the weak show respect unto the strong. Let the rich man provide for the wants of the poor; and let the poor man bless God, because He has given him one by whom his need may be supplied. Let the wise man display his wisdom, not by [mere] words, but through good deeds. Let the humble not bear testimony to himself, but leave witness to be borne to him by another. Proverbs 27:2 Let him that is pure in the flesh not grow proud of it, and boast, knowing that it was another who bestowed on him the gift of continence. Let us consider, then, brethren, of what matter we were made—who and what manner of beings we came into the world, as it were out of a sepulchre, and from utter darkness. He who made us and fashioned us, having prepared His bountiful gifts for us before we were born, introduced us into His world. Since, therefore, we receive all these things from Him, we ought for everything to give Him thanks; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. …

Chapter 40. Let Us Preserve in the Church the Order Appointed by God.

These things therefore being manifest to us, and since we look into the depths of the divine knowledge, it behooves us to do all things in [their proper] order, which the Lord has commanded us to perform at stated times. He has enjoined offerings [to be presented] and service to be performed [to Him], and that not thoughtlessly or irregularly, but at the appointed times and hours. Where and by whom He desires these things to be done, He Himself has fixed by His own supreme will, in order that all things, being piously done according to His good pleasure, may be acceptable unto Him. Those, therefore, who present their offerings at the appointed times, are accepted and blessed; for inasmuch as they follow the laws of the Lord, they sin not. For his own peculiar services are assigned to the high priest, and their own proper place is prescribed to the priests, and their own special ministrations devolve on the Levites. The layman is bound by the laws that pertain to laymen.

Chapter 41. Continuation of the Same Subject.

Let every one of you, brethren, give thanks to God in his own order, living in all good conscience, with becoming gravity, and not going beyond the rule of the ministry prescribed to him. Not in every place, brethren, are the daily sacrifices offered, or the peace-offerings, or the sin-offerings and the trespass-offerings, but in Jerusalem only. And even there they are not offered in any place, but only at the altar before the temple, that which is offered being first carefully examined by the high priest and the ministers already mentioned. Those, therefore, who do anything beyond that which is agreeable to His will, are punished with death. You see, brethren, that the greater the knowledge that has been vouchsafed to us, the greater also is the danger to which we are exposed.

Chapter 42. The Order of Ministers in the Church.

The apostles have preached the gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture in a certain place, I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.

Chapter 43. Moses of Old Stilled the Contention Which Arose Concerning the Priestly Dignity.

And what wonder is it if those in Christ who were entrusted with such a duty by God, appointed those [ministers] before mentioned, when the blessed Moses also, a faithful servant in all his house, noted down in the sacred books all the injunctions which were given him, and when the other prophets also followed him, bearing witness with one consent to the ordinances which he had appointed? For, when rivalry arose concerning the priesthood, and the tribes were contending among themselves as to which of them should be adorned with that glorious title, he commanded the twelve princes of the tribes to bring him their rods, each one being inscribed with the name of the tribe. And he took them and bound them [together], and sealed them with the rings of the princes of the tribes, and laid them up in the tabernacle of witness on the table of God. And having shut the doors of the tabernacle, he sealed the keys, as he had done the rods, and said to them, Men and brethren, the tribe whose rod shall blossom has God chosen to fulfil the office of the priesthood, and to minister unto Him. And when the morning had come, he assembled all Israel, six hundred thousand men, and showed the seals to the princes of the tribes, and opened the tabernacle of witness, and brought forth the rods. And the rod of Aaron was found not only to have blossomed, but to bear fruit upon it. What think ye, beloved? Did not Moses know beforehand that this would happen? Undoubtedly he knew; but he acted thus, that there might be no sedition in Israel, and that the name of the true and only God might be glorified; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Chapter 44. The Ordinances of the Apostles, that There Might Be No Contention Respecting the Priestly Office.

Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole church, and who have blamelessly served the flock of Christ, in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry. For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties. Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now, have obtained a fruitful and perfect departure [from this world]; for they have no fear lest any one deprive them of the place now appointed them. But we see that you have removed some men of excellent behaviour from the ministry, which they fulfilled blamelessly and with honour. …

Chapter 46. Let Us Cleave to the Righteous: Your Strife is Pernicious.

Such examples, therefore, brethren, it is right that we should follow; since it is written, Cleave to the holy, for those that cleave to them shall [themselves] be made holy. And again, in another place, [the Scripture] says, With a harmless man you shall prove yourself harmless, and with an elect man you shall be elect, and with a perverse man you shall show yourself perverse. Let us cleave, therefore, to the innocent and righteous, since these are the elect of God. Why are there strifes, and tumults, and divisions, and schisms, and wars among you? Have we not [all] one God and one Christ? Is there not one Spirit of grace poured out upon us? And have we not one calling in Christ? Ephesians 4:4-6 Why do we divide and tear in pieces the members of Christ, and raise up strife against our own body, and have reached such a height of madness as to forget that we are members one of another? Romans 12:5 Remember the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, how He said, Woe to that man [by whom offenses come]! It were better for him that he had never been born, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of my elect. Yea, it were better for him that a millstone should be hung about [his neck], and he should be sunk in the depths of the sea, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of my little ones. Your schism has subverted [the faith of] many, has discouraged many, has given rise to doubt in many, and has caused grief to us all. And still your sedition continues.

Chapter 47. Your Recent Discord is Worse Than the Former Which Took Place in the Times of Paul.

Take up the epistle of the blessed Apostle Paul. What did he write to you at the time when the gospel first began to be preached? Truly, under the inspiration of the Spirit, he wrote to you concerning himself, and Cephas, and Apollos, because even then parties had been formed among you. But that inclination for one above another entailed less guilt upon you, inasmuch as your partialities were then shown towards apostles, already of high reputation, and towards a man whom they had approved. But now reflect who those are that have perverted you, and lessened the renown of your far-famed brotherly love. It is disgraceful, beloved, yea, highly disgraceful, and unworthy of your Christian profession, that such a thing should be heard of as that the most steadfast and ancient church of the Corinthians should, on account of one or two persons, engage in sedition against its presbyters. And this rumour has reached not only us, but those also who are unconnected with us; so that, through your infatuation, the name of the Lord is blasphemed, while danger is also brought upon yourselves. …

Chapter 51. Let the Partakers in Strife Acknowledge Their Sins.

Let us therefore implore forgiveness for all those transgressions which through any [suggestion] of the adversary we have committed. And these who have been the leaders of sedition and disagreement ought to have respect to the common hope. For such as live in fear and love would rather that they themselves than their neighbours should be involved in suffering. And they prefer to bear blame themselves, rather than that the concord which has been well and piously handed down to us should suffer. For it is better that a man should acknowledge his transgressions than that he should harden his heart, as the hearts of those were hardened who stirred up sedition against Moses the servant of God, and whose condemnation was made manifest [unto all]. For they went down alive into Hades, and death swallowed them up. Pharaoh with his army and all the princes of Egypt, and the chariots with their riders, were sunk in the depths of the Red Sea, and perished, Exodus xiv for no other reason than that their foolish hearts were hardened, after so many signs and wonders had been wrought in the land of Egypt by Moses the servant of God. …

Chapter 54. He Who is Full of Love Will Incur Every Loss, that Peace May Be Restored to the Church.

Who then among you is noble-minded? Who compassionate? Who full of love? Let him declare, If on my account sedition and disagreement and schisms have arisen, I will depart, I will go away wherever ye desire, and I will do whatever the majority commands; only let the flock of Christ live on terms of peace with the presbyters set over it. He that acts thus shall procure to himself great glory in the Lord; and every place will welcome him. For the earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness thereof. These things they who live a godly life that is never to be repented of, both have done and always will do.

Chapter 55. Examples of Such Love.

To bring forward some examples from among the heathen: Many kings and princes, in times of pestilence, when they had been instructed by an oracle, have given themselves up to death, in order that by their own blood they might deliver their fellow citizens [from destruction]. Many have gone forth from their own cities, that so sedition might be brought to an end within them. We know many among ourselves who have given themselves up to bonds, in order that they might ransom others. Many, too, have surrendered themselves to slavery, that with the price which they received for themselves, they might provide food for others. Many women also, being strengthened by the grace of God, have performed numerous manly exploits. The blessed Judith, when her city was besieged, asked of the elders permission to go forth into the camp of the strangers; and, exposing herself to danger, she went out for the love which she bare to her country and people then besieged; and the Lord delivered Holofernes into the hands of a woman. Judith 8:30 Esther also, being perfect in faith, exposed herself to no less danger, in order to deliver the twelve tribes of Israel from impending destruction. For with fasting and humiliation she entreated the everlasting God, who sees all things; and He, perceiving the humility of her spirit, delivered the people for whose sake she had encountered peril.

Chapter 56. Let Us Admonish and Correct One Another.

Let us then also pray for those who have fallen into any sin, that meekness and humility may be given to them, so that they may submit, not unto us, but to the will of God. For in this way they shall secure a fruitful and perfect remembrance from us, with sympathy for them, both in our prayers to God, and our mention of them to the saints. Let us receive correction, beloved, on account of which no one should feel displeased. Those exhortations by which we admonish one another are both good [in themselves], and highly profitable, for they tend to unite us to the will of God. For thus says the holy Word: The Lord has severely chastened me, yet has not given me over to death. For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives. The righteous, says it, shall chasten me in mercy, and reprove me; but let not the oil of sinners make fat my head. And again he says, Blessed is the man whom the Lord reproves, and reject not the warning of the Almighty. For He causes sorrow, and again restores [to gladness]; He wounds, and His hands make whole. He shall deliver you in six troubles, yea, in the seventh no evil shall touch you. In famine He shall rescue you from death, and in war He shall free you from the power of the sword. From the scourge of the tongue will He hide you, and you shall not fear when evil comes. You shall laugh at the unrighteous and the wicked, and shall not be afraid of the beasts of the field. For the wild beasts shall be at peace with you: then shall you know that your house shall be in peace, and the habitation of your tabernacle shall not fail. You shall know also that your seed shall be great, and your children like the grass of the field. And you shall come to the grave like ripened grain which is reaped in its season, or like a heap of the threshing-floor which is gathered together at the proper time. Job 5:17-26 You see, beloved, that protection is afforded to those that are chastened of the Lord; for since God is good, He corrects us, that we may be admonished by His holy chastisement.

Chapter 57. Let the Authors of Sedition Submit Themselves.

You therefore, who laid the foundation of this sedition, submit yourselves to the presbyters, and receive correction so as to repent, bending the knees of your hearts. Learn to be subject, laying aside the proud and arrogant self-confidence of your tongue. For it is better for you that you should occupy a humble but honourable place in the flock of Christ, than that, being highly exalted, you should be cast out from the hope of His people. For thus speaks all-virtuous Wisdom: Behold, I will bring forth to you the words of my Spirit, and I will teach you my speech. Since I called, and you did not hear; I held forth my words, and you regarded not, but set at naught my counsels, and yielded not at my reproofs; therefore I too will laugh at your destruction; yea, I will rejoice when ruin comes upon you, and when sudden confusion overtakes you, when overturning presents itself like a tempest, or when tribulation and oppression fall upon you. For it shall come to pass, that when you call upon me, I will not hear you; the wicked shall seek me, and they shall not find me. For they hated wisdom, and did not choose the fear of the Lord; nor would they listen to my counsels, but despised my reproofs. Wherefore they shall eat the fruits of their own way, and they shall be filled with their own ungodliness. Proverbs 1:22-33 …For, in punishment for the wrongs which they practised upon babes, shall they be slain, and inquiry will be death to the ungodly; but he that hears me shall rest in hope and be undisturbed by the fear of any evil.

Chapter 58. Submission the Precursor of Salvation.

Let us, therefore, flee from the warning threats pronounced by Wisdom on the disobedient, and yield submission to His all-holy and glorious name, that we may stay our trust upon the most hallowed name of His majesty. Receive our counsel, and you shall be without repentance. For, as God lives, and as the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost live—both the faith and hope of the elect, he who in lowliness of mind, with instant gentleness, and without repentance has observed the ordinances and appointments given by God— the same shall obtain a place and name in the number of those who are being saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is glory to Him for ever and ever. Amen.

Chapter 59. Warning Against Disobedience. Prayer.

If, however, any shall disobey the words spoken by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and serious danger; but we shall be innocent of this sin, and, instant in prayer and supplication, shall desire that the Creator of all preserve unbroken the computed number of His elect in the whole world through His beloved Son Jesus Christ, through whom He called us from darkness to light, from ignorance to knowledge of the glory of His name, our hope resting on Your name which is primal cause of every creature—having opened the eyes of our heart to the knowledge of You, who alone rests highest among the highest, holy among the holy, Isaiah 57:15 who layest low the insolence of the haughty, Isaiah 13:11 who destroyest the calculations of the heathen, who settest the low on high and bringest low the exalted; who makest rich and makest poor, 1 Samuel 2:7 who killest and makest to live, Deuteronomy 32:39 only Benefactor of spirits and God of all flesh, who beholdest the depths, the eye-witness of human works, the help of those in danger, the Saviour of those in despair, the Creator and Guardian of every spirit, who multipliest nations upon earth, and from all made choice of those who love You through Jesus Christ, Your beloved Son, through whom You instructed, sanctify, honour us. We would have You, Lord, to prove our help and succour. Those of us in affliction save, on the lowly take pity; the fallen raise; upon those in need arise; the sick heal; the wandering ones of Your people turn; fill the hungry; redeem those of us in bonds; raise up those that are weak; comfort the faint-hearted; let all the nations know that You are God alone and Jesus Christ Your Son, and we are Your people and the sheep of Your pasture. …

Chapter 61. Prayer Continued— For Rulers and Governors. Conclusion.

To our rulers and governors on the earth— to them You, Lord, gavest the power of the kingdom by Your glorious and ineffable might, to the end that we may know the glory and honour given to them by You and be subject to them, in nought resisting Your will; to them, Lord, give health, peace, concord, stability, that they may exercise the authority given to them without offense. For You, O heavenly Lord and King eternal, givest to the sons of men glory and honour and power over the things that are on the earth; do Thou, Lord, direct their counsel according to that which is good and well-pleasing in Your sight, that, devoutly in peace and meekness exercising the power given them by You, they may find You propitious. O Thou, who only has power to do these things and more abundant good with us, we praise You through the High Priest and Guardian of our souls Jesus Christ, through whom be glory and majesty to You both now and from generation to generation and for evermore. Amen. …

Chapter 63. Hortatory, Letter Sent by Special Messengers.

Right is it, therefore, to approach examples so good and so many, and submit the neck and fulfil the part of obedience, in order that, undisturbed by vain sedition, we may attain unto the goal set before us in truth wholly free from blame. Joy and gladness will you afford us, if you become obedient to the words written by us and through the Holy Spirit root out the lawless wrath of your jealousy according to the intercession which we have made for peace and unity in this letter. We have sent men faithful and discreet, whose conversation from youth to old age has been blameless among us—the same shall be witnesses between you and us. This we have done, that you may know that our whole concern has been and is that you may be speedily at peace.

My comments will follow shortly.


Filed under Tradition

18 responses to “Tradition Thursday- #3

  1. Here are a few of my initial thoughts. A more meaningful and in-depth commentary will come tomorrow.

    Chapter 55 mentions both the Book of Judith and the Book of Esther and does so in a canonical way- they are treated no differently than accounts of Moses in Exodus. This is a clear sign that the early Christians viewed both books as being part of the Scriptures.

    This letter also shows that a clear clerical or episcopal hierarchy was in place by the end of the apostolic era. St. Clement notes that it was the apostles who appointed everyone to these posts- they are the ones who set up the system, not those who followed. Some scholars and theologians have argued otherwise, and this letter refutes that position. Of course, most of them contest the letter- they would have to in order to be right.

    Another thing that is interesting is apparent reference to scripture or sayings or documents that did not survive. A number of the Pauline epistles reference other letters which didn’t make it into the NT, so we know not everything was preserved in written form. This goes to show the importance of the Church in passing on the traditions of the Apostles and those who personally knew Jesus.

  2. Tru G*

    Hm, I could post on this or on “Attraction” indefinitely… 😛

  3. Hm, I could post on this or on “Attraction” indefinitely…

    Of that I have no doubt.

  4. To resume my comments-

    St. Clement, in his letter to the Corinthians, is laying out the doctrine of Apostolic succession. Chapters 42 and 44 are the most specific in their mention of this doctrine. Authority in the Church is passed on from Jesus to the Apostles, who then pass it on to bishops who then pass it on to new bishops, and so forth. There was always meant to be a continuous episcopate. It was never meant to be “every man for himself” after the Apostles were gone. Frankly, such a notion is absurd- Scripture states that ours is an orderly faith. And setting up leaders outside the proper “chain of command” is also forbidden, with same rationale applying.

    Keep in mind also that when this letter was written, St. John the Evangelist was still alive. If some of the earliest estimates of its time of writing are correct, some of the other Apostles might also have been alive. So St. Clement was not talking about the past with regards to Apostolic succession, he was talking about the present. There was still at least one Apostle alive who could appoint people. And who could call out St. Clement if he was wrong.

    Connected with this is St. Clement’s emphasis on the importance of unity, and the humility it requires. I do not think that it is coincidence that the Gospel of John, written after this incident, makes note of Jesus praying to His Father for unity amongst the fold. Perhaps this incident was the only one, but I rather doubt it (the Apocalypse of John, written even later, suggests as much). Disunity in the Church is not a new thing.

  5. Novaseeker

    Another good post in a great series.

  6. mdavid

    I do not think that it is coincidence that the Gospel of John, written after this incident, makes note of Jesus praying to His Father for unity amongst the fold.

    One popular heresy practically guaranteeing division is that Christ imputes righteousness to us, rather than giving us the tools (sacraments) to become righteous. This is the “I’m a dunghill covered with snow” fallacy where personal acts don’t matter to salvation. Trouble is, the snow is invisible to all and everyone experiences the dung.

    Christ then necessarily evolves into my “personal” savior who magically (and invisibly) cleans up the wreckage my sins continue to inflect on others. Of course divisiveness naturally follows this theology…who wants to live around a dung pile? It is only through lived out holiness that any church stays unified for long.

  7. Elspeth

    Christ both imputes righteousness AND gives us the tools to act out that righteousness.

    Scripture gives no indication that these two are mutually exclusive. Quite the opposite. And I thought the “dunghill covered with snow” originated with Catholicism? Am I mistaken?

  8. mdavid

    E, I thought the “dunghill covered with snow” originated with Catholicism? Am I mistaken?

    Traditional Christian theology (even trad prots like CS Lewis) believes:
    1) At baptism we become holy, and thus mortal sin damns us.
    2) We must act out our faith, or we reject our salvation (no OSAS).
    3) All must become holy before entering heaven (purgatory or equivalent).

    The “dunghill” concept (worded many ways) is popular with non-traditional Christians. Luther once said, …neither the tree nor the fruit of human nature is good, but that everything has been so deformed and destroyed by sin that there is nothing sound left in all of human nature. and …am completely evil. Before Thee this is my name, that I do evil, that I have sinned, that I am sinning, that I shall sin forever.

    I understand non-Catholic Christians have all sorts of views (30,000+ denominations!) so I don’t claim the dunghill POV describes all (it’s common, however). My comment above was merely that as Catholics we believe we must become holy in this world or risk salvation (“Catholic guilt”) and denominations who deny this naturally create divisions. History has clearly borne this out.

  9. Mrs. C

    It appears that the “dunghill covered with snow” isn’t a direct quote but a concept born of many remarks Luther made. Here is a long and well-researched article about this topic.

    The conclusion is that although a lot his theology is flawed, he was close but not in complete agreement to Catholic theology in his understanding of justification and sanctification.

    “As a clarification, to be fair to Luther (who is often pilloried, slandered, and misrepresented by Catholics, especially non-scholars on the Internet), and to accurately present his entire teaching, it is to be emphasized that, despite all this bad theology above (according to Catholic orthodoxy), Luther does accept the notion of progressive sanctification. He is not an antinomian; he does not condone or sanction sin on the grounds that it is absolutely unavoidable, or rendered ineffectual due to justification, or some sort of bogus “eternal security” based on a one-time justification. He only denies that such works play any role in justification or salvation, or that they can remove all sin before death. He denies entire sanctification. But then so do Catholics, in most cases (which is precisely why we believe in purgatory). Hence Luther wrote, in the same commentary:

    Let us take care to be washed daily, to become purer day by day, so that daily the new man may arise and the old man may be crushed, not only for his death but also for our sanctification.”

  10. mdavid

    C, When you hang with protestants (I do lots) the common words are “cloak of righteousness” for snow & “total depravity” for dung. But it’s the same heresy. Luther himself is irrelevant; I merely quoted his I shall sin forever because he does “total depravity” with real style!

  11. Mrs. C

    @mdavid – I was addressing E’s question about it’s origin. Relax. It wasn’t about the point you were making.

  12. LOL @ catholics talking about protestant heresy…. pot, kettle, black

  13. Novaseeker

    Luther — the man who claimed at the same time that sola scriptura was the governing norm, while at the same time referring to the Epistle of James as an “epistle of straw” because it didn’t seem to agree with his exegesis.

    “Sola scriptura, but not that scriptura!”

  14. mdavid

    Nova, the way protestants handle this difficulty was coined by Sproul’s The bible is a fallible collection of infallible books. It’s pretty clever, and logically consistent.

    C, The problem with Armstrong’s article is that Luther rejected purgatory completely. He was in complete disagreement of the Catholic approach, and deserves that respect.

  15. Elspeth

    “Cloak (or robe) of righteousness” is a concept clearly ecpressed in Scripture. ” Total depravity” isn’t. At least there are many scriptures which leave the latter concept open for discussion.

  16. Mrs. C

    @mdavid “C, The problem with Armstrong’s article is that Luther rejected purgatory completely. He was in complete disagreement of the Catholic approach, and deserves that respect.”

    I agree that he was in complete disagreement. I didn’t really see Armstrong’s article as a problem. He did mention that Luther rejected purgatory at the end of his conclusion. He was just pointing out that certain ideas associated with “dunghill covered with snow” shouldn’t be concluded from Luther’s writings.

    “to accurately present his entire teaching, it is to be emphasized that, despite all this bad theology above (according to Catholic orthodoxy), Luther does accept the notion of progressive sanctification. He is not an antinomian; he does not condone or sanction sin on the grounds that it is absolutely unavoidable, or rendered ineffectual due to justification, or some sort of bogus “eternal security” based on a one-time justification. ”

    The bad theology on Luther’s part is that we will always, even in heaven, remain sinful at our core and God will, when looking upon us only see Christ’s justification and not beyond it, to us as we are. Catholics believe, based on the Scripture that says nothing unclean (impure?) will enter heaven is that we will not just be covered but really and truly be transformed through justification and sanctification together. Hence, we know that we are not perfectly holy when we die but we will be perfect in heaven. There is something that has to happen between here and there and Catholics call that something purgatory, where the last remnants of our sinful nature will be ‘purged” and we will truly gain perfect holiness so that we may be pure and can enter to stand before God. How long the purification will take will depend on what level of sanctification we achieve while on earth before we die. For myself, I expect to be there a good, long while. I plan on teaching my girls the immense value of praying for the poor souls. I’ll need it.

  17. Thanks for the comments everyone.

    I forgot to mention in my comments that Chapter 58 has pretty plain Trinitiarian language in it:

    For, as God lives, and as the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost live

    Again, showing that the doctrine and understanding of the Trinity dates back to the Apostolic era. Or at least the foundations of it does.

    This conversation has given me some ideas for today’s scripture post.

  18. mdavid

    E, “Cloak…of righteousness” is…clearly expressed in Scripture.

    The issue is that said cloak “only” covers us with Christ’s righteousness and the depravity remains. Scripture, OTOH, flatly states we must be transformed from within to holiness that bears fruit (plus cease mortal sin) to be saved. This catholic (historical and universal, ~70% of Christians) gospel is much, much more bold, rigorous and downright crazy and glorious than the non-catholic version.

    Let’s not shadowbox. I know the threads post-Reformation theology well and I try to be fair. These views of salvation are simply not compatible with the catholic approach (nor with Scripture, which is why the non-catholic side can’t unify on much).

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s