Against All Advice

Some of my readers/commenters didn’t pay enough attention when reading my latest post, Advice for a Prodigal Daughter, and so commented in ways that exceeded the scope of what I was allowing. I will give them the benefit of this doubt in this matter, and won’t interpret as trolling or anything. Since there is room for critiquing here, I am creating this post to allow those who have problems with my latest post to comment here. This will be free ranging, and nearly unrestricted in what I allow. So if anyone wants to preserve what they said in the previous post, they can re-created their comment(s) here before I delete the unhelpful ones. I will make that final clean-up early tomorrow, just so everyone know how much  time they have.

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145 Comments

Filed under Red Pill

145 responses to “Against All Advice

  1. Novaseeker

    What I want to know is how those N20 girls can manage to get married. What are their tricks? How do they turn on the charm?

    The N20s get attention mostly because they are hot, in my experience. Again, in terms of importance, for most men (not DG and not me, but for *most* men, Christian and otherwise) the priority is: hot > N. Hot women who are bitchy, slutty, promiscuous get away with a lot in terms of mate selection because they are hot. Hot men do the same, for the same reason. Evolution-wise, we are wired to want to mate with hottest we can get, provided the other variables aren’t totally trashed, and the other variables can be completely trashed if the other person is hot enough.

    In a world of individual-based, independent mate selection, hot rules every other factor. Hot is what it’s about.

    Now, remaining hot and chaste is a very tall order, and very few humans who are truly hot are able to do it in this culture, because they are tempted by other truly hot people. It’s assortative in its own way (hot with hot), just like UMC marriages are in their own way.

  2. Feminine But Not Feminist

    @ SirNemesis

    First things first ~ rocket scientist, very intelligent, athletic, not afraid to face down guys twice your size, confident and savvy in intellectual debates… that’s pretty impressive! Plus Asians are absolutely ADORABLE (or whatever the proper male version of the word “adorable” is).

    Second ~ I’m confused as to why having no prior sexual history with women would be the reason you have a hard time being forward with them (particularly considering you sound like you would easily attract women based on your description of yourself). What I mean is, if the only way to become confident and forward with women is through sexual experience, but yet confidence and forwardness is required to actually gain sexual experience, then shouldn’t there be an alternative way to become confident with women in the first place in order to gain the original sexual experience? It’s like, which came first, the chicken or the egg? (I’m not sure if I’m explaining my confusion in a way that makes any sense. Please let me know if I’m not and I will try again.)

  3. What I want to know is how those N20 girls can manage to get married. What are their tricks? How do they turn on the charm?

    Practice at flirting with and seducing guys?

  4. trugingstar

    FBNF is right. The first thing that attracts me to guys his how they look. A seven shouldn’t have any problem getting dates, after age 19 or so. If a guy’s cute, a woman will think, “Wow, what a cute guy!” Even kind of cute guys should be able to get a date if they don’t come on to strong. Unless they say something completely stupid. I’m just talking about what the types of things me and my circle have talked about concerning men. If men want to turn up the charm, they can use game. If men want to avoid being rejected, they shouldn’t come on too strong.

    SirNemesis, part of me doesn’t believe you. You have three wives or something.

    If I want to go out of my way to target someone, I can. At least, I did in the past. I just never feel like I know people well enough. There isn’t enough context. And then, maybe Deti’s right and it’s not entirely safe. I’m trying to look for a work-around. If I’m going into a situation where I get to know a group of men, and then pick one forever, I’m alright. If I’m going into a situation where I get to know one man at a time and then can end the process when I find a match, I’m alright with that too. But church dating is picking a stranger and committing your life to them. The men and women just have a communication barrier.

    So when I say cute is important, I’m coming from a cultural standpoint of the women and men being prohibited from talking until engagement. Which would also be fine if churches or parents were making matches, but…

  5. I’m not sure I gave my stock advice to young women seeking a mate.

    My usual advice is:

    –be pretty (you don’t have to be hot or beautiful or cute. You just have to look your best and look feminine, like a woman.)

    –be nice (should be self-explanatory. Don’t be a bitch. Be affable, personable, friendly and approachable.)

    –don’t get fat (it’s probably OK if you’re a little overweight. You do not need to look like Jillian Michaels. But then don’t go to Melissa McCarthy or Conchata Ferrell territory either)

    –be available (make time for meeting people and for dating. If you don’t have time to go out with men who are asking you out, then you need to either (1) make the time; or (2) get out of the market.)

  6. And “pretty” is “keep your hair long, your weight down, and your makeup on.”

  7. In the “singular problem” thread I listed the major reasons why a woman makes it to age 30 still single. Here’s what I said:
    ____________________
    Generally, if a woman makes it to age 30 and wanted to be married and yet is still single, something went wrong somewhere. Could be one or a combination of the following:

    1. She doesn’t look her best. She needs to improve her physical appearance. If a woman is not attracting some men somewhere, something is wrong.

    I need to talk about this for a bit. It is simply 100% wrong that men require supermodels with 5% bodyfat. Men’s standards for physical attractiveness vary widely and are actually quite low. I must confess I’ve seen all sorts of women have success in attracting men. I’ve seen plain women, fat women, homely women, women with bad skin/hair/teeth/other body part(s), and skinny gangly women – all of them, every one, are able to generate some male interest. It might not be the best men, might not be the hawtest men – but they can get SOME guy SOMEWHERE interested in them.

    If a woman is not generating ANY male interest, then either (a) she needs to work on her appearance; or (b) there are absolutely NO men around AT ALL.

    2. Her standards for men are too high. She needs to get realistic about the kind of men she can attract.

    3. She gets men interested but cannot hold or keep their interest. If this is the case, then something about her is repelling men. She has issues or problems she needs to work through. (It is usually something quite major. Most men will put up with a boatload of BS for a woman they are attracted to and love and care about. If this is the case, she needs help working through whatever issues or problems there are. This usually needs some counseling or therapy.)

    4. She is attracting men whom she is not attracted to. If this is the case, then she needs to improve her physical appearance and/or get realistic about the men she can attract. Or she is in a geographic location where attractive men are scarce. She needs to consider enlarging the locations where she seeks attractive men, consider relocating, or reconsider the social circles she moves in and the locations where she seeks and meets men.

    5. She is attracting men who want only short term relationships. If this is the case then a woman needs to consider (a) how she presents herself. Does she come off as a slut or one who is interested only in sex and STRs? (b) the available pool of men or where she seeks men.

    6. She has an offputting, unattractive personality that repels men.

    7. She has “followed the life script” and marriage passed her by. The “life script” most women have today is: high school> college > work >grad/professional school> work some more > accumulate things> travel to exotic locations > have “fun with friends” > MAYBE get married around age 30 or so, then MAYBE have kids around age 35 or so. Interspersed in the college/work/grad school/travel 20s will be sexual relationships of varying duration with attractive men. But not marriage, because the “script” doesn’t call for marriage until around age 30.

    What usually happens to these women is one of the following:

    a. She has spent too much time on matters other than seeking men for relationships and marriage. She works too much, her friends/hobbies/other activities are more important to her than seeking a good man for marriage.

    (I actually think this is quite common among professional women. Such women think their status will make them more attractive to higher status men. It doesn’t; it simply puts them in contact with – and requires them to compete with — higher status men. Men do not want to compete with women they want to have sex with and marry.)

    b. She simply hasn’t prioritized seeking a man for marriage. She believes that love and marriage “just happen” at the right time, when the “script” calls for it. So, around age 30, a man is supposed to “appear” and sweep her off her feet, romance her, and marry her, and she just has to sit back and “let it happen”. She believes this requires no effort or work on her part; she only has to show up and the script will play out.

    So these are the reasons why a lot of women can get to 30 and not get married.

  8. Feminine But Not Feminist

    @ Tru

    FBNF is right. The first thing that attracts me to guys is how they look.

    That’s not at all the point I was trying to make, but alright.

    SirNemesis, part of me doesn’t believe you. You have three wives or something.

    I believe him. I was just trying to tell him that since he has so much going for him, and since his reasoning re: confidence with being forward with women has the chicken/egg thing, that there’s gotta be another way for him to gain said confidence with being forward.

  9. mdavid

    deti, …and your makeup on

    This is not a given. Many men (myself included) hate women with makup, Unless it’s so subtle I can’t tell of course. I’ve never seen my wife with makup, before or after marriage.

  10. mdavid:

    as a general rule, tastefully applied makeup (not bare, but not circus clown either) works well for most women.

    Most women look more appealing and physically attractive with makeup. For most women, makeup helps them more than hurts them. Yes, there are A FEW men who don’t much care for makeup on women. Yes, there are A FEW women who look good completely sans makeup. But MOST women will do better MOST of the time with some makeup.

    On the whole, when discussing matters of sexual attraction, I’ve found it more beneficial and useful to address the generally applicable rules than the outliers and exceptions.

  11. trugingstar

    “That’s not at all the point I was trying to make, but alright.”

    Lol, that’s fine. I probably just skimmed and read the words “adorable” and “athletic.” I’m not always the best with attention span, unfortunately. I guess my point was that the way a man looks is, in and of itself, more important than the manosphere often gives credit.

    A cute guy who makes 40-50k will do better than a plain guy who makes 80k or an ugly guy who makes 160k. He will get the hawter babe. A cute guy who does a complicated job that showcases his intelligence and brings in a lot of money should still be able to easily find a spouse, regardless of racial identity.

    The only way this makes sense is if Nemesis is short. I don’t think height should matter as much as it does, but oh well, that’s society. I’d be fine with someone four inches shorter. I think more than that and it starts to feel weird. I see a lot of women being perfectionistic. If they don’t require that he be at least 5″ taller or whatever, they at least “want him to be taller, like by an inch or so.” That cuts out a lot of people.

  12. trugingstar

    Deti, I’m currently in the process of dealing with my problem. What’s difficult about it is that it’s very uncommon, so finding the right person to deal with it has been difficult. I see my mistake as opening-up about it. I really value honesty, but it probably doesn’t do me any favors to tell men I’m dating about it, even if we’re four dates in. It’s not a sexual past or anything that’s my fault. I probably need to establish my identity first, then be open about it much later.

    The other issue is that yes, there simply aren’t a lot of Christian men where I live. I don’t know where they all hang out. You only run into them sporadically. I don’t like the idea of going to a mega church, but that might be what I have to do. But even that’s awkward and people don’t talk to each other…

  13. Tru:

    I don’t know what “your problem” is or how it impairs you in the dating/mating world. If you’re talking about your LD, I’m not certain how that would cause problems in meeting people aside perhaps from difficulty reading social cues or your comfort level around men. But I’m just speculating here because you haven’t told us what “your problem” is or how it affects your interpersonal relationships.

    What I can tell from your comments yesterday is that (1) you spend a lot of time on school and your job and you’re working really hard; and (2) your parents did next to nothing to help you get ready for dating and men, and what advice they do give you isn’t helpful Those, I think, are the primary issues.

    (I’m discovering more and more that men aren’t the only ones who got hung out to dry in the “here’s how you find a decent member of the opposite sex” department.)

    Don’t be a Career Girl Carrie, who follows the “life script” and just waits for marriage to “just happen”. It will be gone before you know it and you’ll run out of time and options. Make a little less time for school/work and a little more time for dating and meeting men. Make meeting men a priority in your life. Say “yes” a little more often to dates. Don’t flake. Offer alternate dates if you have conflicts. You need to be more proactive in asking out men you like. As for the (2) part, you’re learning what that’s all about here.

  14. It’s frustrating to navigate though several pages of comments to get to the very early comments on that thread, but someone (I think FBNF) asked about 18-23 year olds and you gave a usable answer (whether it is good or not, I am the wrong one to judge, and since I’m not in the right age range, if I tried it and it failed, it would not invalidate the advice.) IIRC, it was an elaboration on “be available.”
    You also responded to me later in the thread, and that’s when you talked about ladies over 30.

  15. Feminine But Not Feminist

    @ Tru

    Agreed, a man’s looks aren’t given enough credit around here. The degree to which they matter varies from woman to woman of course, but they make a difference.

    I doubt SirNemesis is struggling with confidence with women due to height (though of course I don’t know that for sure). I’m willing to bet there are more women interested in him than he realizes. If those women made their interest clear, I wonder if that would help him gain some confidence with them(?).

    My take on height is that as long as a man is my height or more, then it’s tall enough for me. But at a mere 5’4″ I’ve yet to meet a man shorter than me, so no trouble there.

  16. @ FBNF

    First things first ~ rocket scientist, very intelligent, athletic, not afraid to face down guys twice your size, confident and savvy in intellectual debates… that’s pretty impressive! Plus Asians are absolutely ADORABLE (or whatever the proper male version of the word “adorable” is).

    Heh thanks. Although I should mention I’m the subcontinent variety of Asian, not the Eastern variety of Asian.

    Second ~ I’m confused as to why having no prior sexual history with women would be the reason you have a hard time being forward with them (particularly considering you sound like you would easily attract women based on your description of yourself). What I mean is, if the only way to become confident and forward with women is through sexual experience, but yet confidence and forwardness is required to actually gain sexual experience, then shouldn’t there be an alternative way to become confident with women in the first place in order to gain the original sexual experience? It’s like, which came first, the chicken or the egg? (I’m not sure if I’m explaining my confusion in a way that makes any sense. Please let me know if I’m not and I will try again.)

    Well this is a big part of what makes certain guys naturals and others not. A lot of it can be traced back to sheer luck in high school and whether the guy was able to develop the confidence around women through experience and practice. I actually did have girls interested in me early in high school but considered myself not mature enough to bother with relationships. Which was true enough, but it also meant I avoided getting any practice with women (no practice romantically that is – leaving aside the confidence boost from actual sex). Then I went to college and found that the forwardness required of men for courtship was far greater in adulthood than in high school. I think this was because the parameters of dating had changed from primarily romantic to primarily sexual going from high school to college (my high school was UMC so most students were too well behaved to have sex).

    Of course, PUAs have an easy way of bootstrapping their confidence. They simply have men practice on sluts and “fake it till you make it”. It’s a lot easier to be forward with some random girl you don’t give a damn about than some girl you’re connecting with and actually want to have a relationship with. This is a non-starter for me though, since I’m only interested in an LTR (actually preferably a permanent relationship rather than just a long-term relaitonship).

  17. @Deti

    (I’m discovering more and more that men aren’t the only ones who got hung out to dry in the “here’s how you find a decent member of the opposite sex” department.)

    Yay!

  18. trugingstar

    I personally think dark guys are hawt. I’m, obvs, a redhead, so I tend to have more of an affinity with Middle-Eastern looking guys. I know a Sri Lankan guy with really big, curly hair. If you can grow a fro like that, do it. Fros are sooo hawt. Although, it would never work, because you’re LTR and I’m strictly marriage… There’s gotta be some guy out there who’s darker Oriental and an Evango-Christian. :/

  19. Anne:

    The thing is, it seems that men are almost deliberately told the wrong things to do. It’s like they’re being coached on how to be unattractive. “Be nice, be yourself, shower her with gifts, spend lots of money on her, give her whatever she says she wants, coddle her emotions, and make her happy.”

    And girls are being told to just “wait for it to happen, you’re a good girl, go have fun and meet people, and it will take care of itself”.

    The thing is, young men hear the advice they’re given, and they hear it and implement it exactly as it’s given to them.

    What I don’t understand is how a solid 60% or so of young women take the “wait for it to happen” advice given them, but hear it as “Party it up and have sex with the most attractive men you can find for as long as you can”.

  20. We’re not being told to go have fun and meet people and it will just happen.
    We’re being told to serve God in your singleness and be content in your singleness and if it’s his will for you to be married it will just happen. Furthermore, if you aren’t content in your singleness, God won’t let it happen because He wants you to love Him in the circumstances you are in now. You know you shouldn’t make marriage an idol.
    I’d say that 60% you speak of has totally rejected this advice and looked to the world for its advice. I figured out that the advice I was (and am still) being given was bad years ago, I just didn’t think the worldly advice was any better.

  21. trugingstar

    I will never let Candace Watters live it down for telling a young woman that her fiance should leave her because she masturbates. “Until you have no sex drive, you can’t get married.”

  22. Elspeth

    “Until you have no sex drive, you can’t get married.”

    Wow. Seriously? I’ve never read boundless myself, but if that is any representation of what is offered there, I can see why it’s so roundly denounced in these parts.

    I was moved by looks a lot more than is conceded to around here as well, trugingstar. I have at least one girl who seems to lean that way, but I’m working on her. And praying.

    That said, I think more women are being swayed and letting good men get away due to lack of looks attractiveness for the same reason that many men do with women: Too many movies, magazines, chick porn, and all the stuff that raises the bar beyond what is realistic to expect the average man to possess.

  23. trugingstar

    Sorry, boyfriend. Yeah, Elspeth, it’s stranger than fiction. I simply think she doesn’t know what she’s talking about.

    http://www.boundless.org/advice/2013/should-masturbation-be-a-relationship-deal-breaker

  24. ballista74

    We’re not being told to go have fun and meet people and it will just happen.
    We’re being told to serve God in your singleness and be content in your singleness and if it’s his will for you to be married it will just happen.

    Yeah, what Anne says here is really the script. Part of that is what trugingstar relates. Basically, it’s “guarding your heart” before Jesus to have any kind of desire (lust) towards the opposite sex. It’s considered an idol before Jesus to do this and literally “impure”. To desire the opposite sex instead of desire Jesus is considered a lack of contentment at minimum and idolatry at the worst.

    So basically, you’re not supposed to have any desire at all for the opposite sex…and have enough desire to marry. It’s not just Boundless, it’s literally all of modern Christianity at this point for a couple of generations.

    Then if you were to marry such a woman, she’s so sexually repressed that she’s unable to form any bond with her husband, let alone satisfy the proper marital debt. Of course, it makes it much easier on the woman to wield sex as a weapon against her husband to force his compliance. It also presents a very poor witness against marriage – this is one of the many hangups that “Christian” women have that secular women just don’t have. . . and makes them more attractive.

  25. @ trugingstar

    The only way this makes sense is if Nemesis is short. I don’t think height should matter as much as it does, but oh well, that’s society. I’d be fine with someone four inches shorter. I think more than that and it starts to feel weird. I see a lot of women being perfectionistic. If they don’t require that he be at least 5″ taller or whatever, they at least “want him to be taller, like by an inch or so.” That cuts out a lot of people.

    Yes, I’m short. Although that might add an extra handicap for me, it isn’t the only issue. I’ve known taller guys who’re in the same boat as me simply because they don’t have the confidence to openly and assertively pursue women.

    I doubt SirNemesis is struggling with confidence with women due to height (though of course I don’t know that for sure).

    I don’t have lesser confidence due to my height. My height might be an issue with women, but aside from seeing women on the internet talk about their height requirements, I haven’t directly experienced anything that made me feel that my height is handicapping me towards women. I.e. I can rationally know that my height might be a disadvantage, but it isn’t something that I have internalized on an emotional level so I don’t really feel insecure about it. I do have experience with men (not women) tending to act dismissive towards me by default (although that doesn’t apply to my current locality where I’m much closer to average height than in other localities). I tend to have to push hard to be taken seriously and not get placed on the bottom of the status hierarchy. That’s probably where the whole “short man syndrome” comes from – shorter men refusing to stay in their place in the male hierarchy.

    I’m willing to bet there are more women interested in him than he realizes. If those women made their interest clear, I wonder if that would help him gain some confidence with them(?).

    There probably are. I’m not exactly great at reading IOIs (and the lack of experience doesn’t exactly help). Unfortunately, women for the large part simply do not display overt interest.

  26. The N20s get attention mostly because they are hot, in my experience.

    That, and the fact that N is rarely accurate. If she’s hot enough, the guy will believe any number she makes up.

  27. women for the large part simply do not display overt interest.

    Plausible deniability in action. Helpful if she changes her mind about how hot he is, like next morning.

  28. What are their tricks? How do they turn on the charm?

    An aging carouseler that sees the end in sight doesnt have to do much, but lower their expectations. Hence the unhappy marriage, cash and prizes and alimony ever after.

    A woman genuinely seeking a husband has to join his team. Respect him publicly and privately. Support his goals. Dont gossip, dont undermine him, do things for him without expecting something in return.

    Be kind. Be thoughtful. Anticipate his needs. Speak well of him.

    Contemporary culture tells women to be sassy, be careerist, be loud and confident, be thoughtless. Men dont want a competitor. Ideally we want a helpmeet, not a doormat. There is a difference.

  29. trugingstar

    Nemesis, height’s a big deal. I think even down to the inch. I’m guessing you’re quite short. One guy I knew was 5’3″, and was able to get past this by dating older. He was also LTR to possible marriage. She’s cute. She’s a seven, had been a career girl, owned her own girly business. And this guy doesn’t even have a good job, although he’s white.

    Okay, good example of an alpha with no sexual experience: Sherlock. Women around the world love him. In fact, he makes virginity a fetish. It’s probably the mere fact that he’s so smart and so unapologetic about his behavior. I personally think calm assertiveness goes a long way.

    That’s all I know about the subject. Maybe just look at how other men with height issues cope with it. Read every forum-entry and article you can about it.

  30. mdavid

    ballista, So basically, you’re not supposed to have any desire at all for the opposite sex…it’s literally all of modern Christianity at this point for a couple of generations.

    I don’t see this at all in Catholic nor Orthodox circles, and together they make up over 60% of Christianity. Both are pretty “earthy” and sacramental and are fine with sex. Remember America was founded by Puritans (heretics and freaks who didn’t even believe in celebrating Holy Days) and this disordered views on sex still has roots in much of American protestantism.

    RC & EO generally laugh at that stuff…and go on winking at fornication and not encouraging women to marry young to said avoid fornication.

  31. trugingstar

    AO, I didn’t know you had a blog… I mean, a “Tumblr”… Ebola Nurse, lol. It’s like when Ja’mie was a “naughty AIDS nurse.
    “http://puckyeahchrislilley.tumblr.com/post/11603466339/naughty-aids-nurse

  32. mdavid

    DG, if you could fix the last two paragraphs of my comments; I forgot the end itialic tag.

  33. trugingstar

    Because Protestants don’t believe in Catholic “Holy Days”, that are probably based on pagan customs, sorry, they’re “heretics?” Why don’t you practice Jewish Holidays? Like Jesus?

  34. Puritans did not have our modern disordered views on sex.

  35. mdavid

    Anne, back in the day Puritans didn’t have sex issues because they married so young and were populating a continent (bundling, anyone?). However, they were religiously restrictive (that’s how the movement started in Europe, even other protestants hated them for it). They eliminated music from worship and were far more restrictive culturally than RC/EO, who loved to party. It is this public restrictive attitude that led to American religious sexual restrictive wacko behavior today since we don’t have big families anymore. Just ask any European about American sexual prudishness; we see it in drinking too.

    If you need an example of how religious craziness is always on the move once divorced from tradition, read trug above.

  36. Well I suppose you’d think I’m crazy then too, because I keep a form of kosher, observe the Lord’s appointed times, and avoid the syncretistic holidays that Roman Catholics brought into the church.

  37. I’ll take a pass on bundling though.

  38. america was not founded by puritans… yankee land was but…. f#ck it all these utopian ideals come from there

  39. mdavid

    Wow, no Christmas. Now that would be a marriage killer. I get the chills thinking about being raised in a family like that.

  40. mdavid

    Anne, the syncretistic holidays that Roman Catholics brought into the church.

    Eastern Orthodox celebrate most of the same religious holidays as all the 21 different rites of Catholics (not just the Roman rite). And from the earliest of days, before the books of New Testament had even been agreed upon. Christians in every land celebrated feast days (most have Jewish roots). Only until the Reformation was this questioned. Heresy and division feeds on itself.

  41. trugingstar

    What’s so Biblical about Catholic holidays that denying them is a heresy? I don’t think you actually believe what you’re saying. What does the New Testament say about tradition, since the teachings of Paul were so fundamental to the Early Church?

    As to kosher, I don’t keep it. Some Messianics I know don’t keep it. I do keep the part about not consuming blood, as per Paul. I think of kosher as a non-essential issue. I also don’t practice the Jewish holidays religiously, but I often like to be a part of them. If someone can establish a good case that they should be practiced religiously, I’ll do it.

  42. trugingstar

    Puritanism was heretical in the same way that the Catholic Church is and Mormonism is: Replacement Theology. They literally thought of themselves as the Israelites. Weber’s “Protestant Ethic” establishes a connection between Puritanism and Economic Darwinism, which as you know, led to real Darwinism. Darwinists now a-days are basically just atheistic Puritans.

  43. This thread is veering way off topic. Since there seems to be some interest in this subject, I will feature it in my next Selected Sunday Scriptures post. Everyone can debate about it there to their heart’s content.

  44. trugingstar

    NO, we’re going to end this RIGHT. HERE.

    D;

  45. trugingstar

    I’d also like to enrich this discussion further. This dancing Aang goes with this song.

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