Meager Options

As I am somewhat busy at the moment, I’m afraid original posts will have to wait for the time being. In the interim I am going to do what I often do when pressed for time: rip off of major bloggers, in this case Dalrock. In the comments of his post The more meager a woman’s choices, the more attractive she must be, someone by the name of trugingstar left this comment:

I’m going to play the devil’s advocate to the commenters, and say that more older men are cheating and that the dating market is bad for women who want to get married. I’m a 20-something woman. I *ahem* am the first to tell if a marriage is on the rocks, and I’ve made it into kind of a game to guess how I end up a mistress candidate in the fantasies of married fellows (cold? mean? miscarriage? former alpha? just a really guy young?). This happens to my friends often, as well. We have a running joke that the only men interested in us are already married.

I also have only a little bit of time left in the *secular* dating scene to meet a *Christian*, because the Christian dating scene is pure idealism. By secular, I mean not sleeping around, but going on hundreds of first dates that fail the “how often do you go to church?” test.

If you date at a church, you end up with the left-overs, most of the time. Someone my age has a shot with someone in his 30s. The kind of pew-warmer who’s unmarried, unsexed, and in his thirties is often alone for a reason. It’s usually a serious issue. It’s not the same as me going out and sleeping around and meeting a thirty-something that’s sleeping around.

So, why all the cheating? Why all the poor selection? Duh: everyone knows this – uncommitted (by this, I mean “unmarried,” not necessarily ONS) sex outside of the church, marriage (especially male) discouragement within the church, creates no reason for most men to marry. It also creates a surplus of women who are available for extramarital sex.

I’m just going to literally go with the title here; yes, “the more meager a woman’s choices, the more attractive she must be.” I can’t get my equal in attractiveness, virtue, whatever, because the choice selection is meager. BUT. I can get married men. Can’t WAIT for marriage.

There is a lot to dissect and respond to in this comment, and this post will be devoted to just that.

The first thing that I found interesting about this post is it can be interpreted two different ways.  One possible interpretation is that as a woman’s choices (in men) become more meager, the more attractive that she has to be to get a man (or at least attract one worth having). Technically this is true. In a limited market, you need to have more assets on hand to pull off a successful transaction. This applies to both commercial markets and the marriage market. And it is the same for both men and women- In a “buyers” market we need to have more and more to make the sale.

However, what I understand Dalrock to actually say is that the woman he was quoting from was convinced that because she was so attractive there were few good options for men available to her. In essence, because she was so high-value she was “priced out of the market.” This seems to be the very same attitude expressed by the commenter, who apparently started a blog a few days ago. She was convinced that because she was not likely to find “my equal in attractiveness, virtue, whatever”, which I take to mean she felt she couldn’t successfully carry out assortive mating.

Now, the obvious counter to this, which Dalrock hints at, is that women who hold this view are probably greatly over-estimating their actual worth (or SMV/MMV). If they really were as high-value as they thought they were, their choices wouldn’t be so meager. Or maybe they aren’t that meager, but they just don’t see the decent men around them for what they are. Of course the situation is often more complicated than that, but still, it has to be the case for some-most especially the woman Dalrock quotes.

Now I’m going to parse individual thoughts from her comment, starting with this:

more older men are cheating and that the dating market is bad for women who want to get married.

Most of the studies I’ve seen indicate that men are more likely to commit adultery (I despise the word “cheat” in this context) than women, although not necessarily by a huge discrepancy. Now, some men around these parts dispute these numbers, but I don’t. While I think that women often would have an easier time cheating if they wanted to, most don’t want to. They don’t have the same sex drive as men, and many of the men around them wouldn’t be seen as worth breaking their vows with. Also, I suspect that women are more likely to seek a divorce and then sleep with whoever they want, whereas men are less keen on seeking divorce as a means to break their vows.

And yes, the “dating” marking is bad for women who want to get married. That’s only natural, as the dating market was created to push dating instead of marriage. Men and women who are serious about marriage, chaste Christians especially, face a brutal marriage market at the moment.

I’m a 20-something woman. I *ahem* am the first to tell if a marriage is on the rocks, and I’ve made it into kind of a game to guess how I end up a mistress candidate in the fantasies of married fellows (cold? mean? miscarriage? former alpha? just a really guy young?). This happens to my friends often, as well. We have a running joke that the only men interested in us are already married.

Sadly, I can’t really scoff at this, which is something I suspect more than a few manospherians have done. I have gotten more than a few hints or propositions from married women over the years. Some subtle, others not so much (some of the invitations to pull off a “relationship coup” were especially sickening). From my perspective, for a long time, it seemed like the only attention I got from women was from those who were married (with the only exceptions being those who were unacceptable for some other significant reason). It was rather disturbing to me, actually, to think that a number of women I worked with or met somehow saw me as their “rebound” guy.

If you date at a church, you end up with the left-overs, most of the time. Someone my age has a shot with someone in his 30s. The kind of pew-warmer who’s unmarried, unsexed, and in his thirties is often alone for a reason. It’s usually a serious issue.

Can’t you just feel the love folks? The condescension here is sadly typical. I’m sure that more than a few of my male readers can relate their own stories about similar experiences. Understand, ladies, it is attitudes like this which cause a lot of men to drop out of the game entirely.

It’s not the same as me going out and sleeping around and meeting a thirty-something that’s sleeping around.

Assuming I’m reading this right, she is saying that she thinks things, and by things I mean men, are far worse inside the church than out in the SMP. Do some of my female readers understand why this and other statements have many Christian men in the west swearing off marriage, or at least western women?

Why all the poor selection? Duh: everyone knows this – uncommitted (by this, I mean “unmarried,” not necessarily ONS) sex outside of the church, marriage (especially male) discouragement within the church, creates no reason for most men to marry. It also creates a surplus of women who are available for extramarital sex.

All great in theory, and with some factual basis. Certainly the part about marriage discouragement is correct. But it also misses the fact that women aren’t signalling to men that they want to get married (at least until they are older) like they used to. And without that signalling, men aren’t quite so apt to get ready for marriage themselves, either mentally or otherwise. In addition, that “surplus of women who are available for extramarital sex” aren’t an asset to the majority of men who have trouble competing in the present SMP.

And that’s enough for now. Not sure I’ll be able to post again until the end of the week. In the meantime, feel free to add your own thoughts.

95 Comments

Filed under Christianity, Churchianity, Courtship, Marriage, Men, Red Pill, Sex, Sexual Market Place, Sin, Temptation, The Church, Women

95 responses to “Meager Options

  1. mdavid

    trugingstar, If you date at a church, you end up with the left-overs…unmarried, unsexed, and in his thirties is often alone for a reason.

    DG, Can’t you just feel the love folks? The condescension here is sadly typical. I’m sure that more than a few of my male readers can relate their own stories about similar experiences. Understand, ladies, it is attitudes like this which cause a lot of men to drop out of the game entirely.

    I think this is a tad unfair. What is going on is clear: she has gotten attention from higher value men before and she’s conflating this with her actual MMV, which is much lower (or she would be married by now). I don’t think she is overly harsh, merely off-balance with her rank in the marketplace.
    .

    DG, Do some of my female readers understand why this and other statements have many Christian men in the west swearing off marriage, or at least western women?

    I think I get why most men are swearing off marriage, but I don’t see what part you are referring to here in her comments.

    trug, Why all the poor selection? Duh: everyone knows this – uncommitted (by this, I mean “unmarried,” not necessarily ONS) sex outside of the church…creates no reason for most men to marry.

    She’s right here. We are in a post-marriage, post-children era. Most people have gotten with the times. So everyone interested in marriage and sexless dating a) better do it young and b) better plan on settling. For men, it’s rarely worth it in the West.

    I think you give to much agency (and too much intellectual credit) to women. They are, generally speaking, not rational creatures. They go with the flow when young, driven by the invisible hand of the SMP to think they are hotter than they are in the MMM. Nobody is pushing them to marry before they use themselves up. Then it’s too late…at the exact time her expectations of men are all out of whack and she’s emotionally ruined. Nothing new here.

    Honestly, I blame Christian men nearly as much as women for their stupidity here. They need to wake up, accept women for what they really are (not much, actually), and accept the reality that marriage makes no sense for them in the US (or Canadian) MMP. But it only takes one woman for marriage and there is a large pool of pleasant, humble women seeking marriage in their 20’s from cultures where men and women have roughly equal rank in the MMM, This isn’t the case in the West, where women have pretty much gone on marriage strike under 30 yo.

    But most US men do not grasp the gravity of their situation, or are just to lazy to care. Just like women cannot grasp how their marriage window is so tight they should be in a panic at the exact time they are being shown attention by men well beyond their MMV, most men today have no clue about how bad their prospects really are and that desperate measures are required. It’s merely stupidity and false hope on both sides.

  2. @ Donalgraeme:

    “I have gotten more than a few hints or propositions from married women over the years. Some subtle, others not so much (some of the invitations to pull off a “relationship coup” were especially sickening). From my perspective, for a long time, it seemed like the only attention I got from women was from those who were married (with the only exceptions being those who were unacceptable for some other significant reason).”

    I wish I could say this surprises me, but I can’t, because it doesn’t.

    It really just offers more support for my theory that most women today are married to men they are either (1) not attracted to at all; or (2) less attracted to than they were/are to men they had premarital sex and relationships with; or (3) used to be attracted to but aren’t now for whatever reason.

    I suspect (2) is the most common situation for most women; simply because most women have had premarital sex and relationships, and most of those relationships/sexual experiences were with men more attractive than the men they married. They were unable to extract commitment from those attractive men, or refused commitment from them for whatever reason.

  3. But most US men do not grasp the gravity of their situation, or are just to lazy to care.

    Yes to the first, no to the second.

    It’s not that most US men are too lazy to care about not getting a wife or sex. They know there’s a problem; they just haven’t the slightest idea what to do about it. So they drop out and retreat into porn, video games, crappy jobs, etc.

    And from what I can see, most Christian women are out there enjoying the attention their high SMVs bring them. They are out there dating and having sex just like their secular sisters. I don’t believe for a minute they are all pining away for husbands. Young Christian women are delaying marriage just as much as nonChristian women are.

  4. But it also misses the fact that women aren’t signalling to men that they want to get married (at least until they are older) like they used to. And without that signalling, men aren’t quite so apt to get ready for marriage themselves, either mentally or otherwise.

    I suppose at this point it’s too late for this information to make a difference to me, but maybe it will help some other girl…how does a woman go about “signaling” to a man that she is interested in getting married?

    I’m assuming that most Christian women would only signal to one man at a time… maybe that’s not a good assumption. Wouldn’t a man find it offputting in a woman was (by whatever means) advertising that she had a husband-shaped gap in her life and didn’t much care who filled it?

    (I realize that asking the question makes it sound like I’m socially stunted. Well, I am. Go from there)

  5. Novaseeker

    Honestly, I blame Christian men nearly as much as women for their stupidity here. They need to wake up, accept women for what they really are (not much, actually), and accept the reality that marriage makes no sense for them in the US (or Canadian) MMP. But it only takes one woman for marriage and there is a large pool of pleasant, humble women seeking marriage in their 20’s from cultures where men and women have roughly equal rank in the MMM, This isn’t the case in the West, where women have pretty much gone on marriage strike under 30 yo.

    Overstated, I think.

    Average marriage age for women is 27 (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_at_first_marriage) in the US, which is actually younger than in most other advanced countries, really. Really, roughly as many women are 24 at first marriage as are 30 at first marriage in the US. It varies GREATLY by (1) SES class (the UMC and UMC+ marry later) and (2) geography (coastal blue metros, older, middle of the country, younger).

    The issue is the guys in LA and Chicago and DC and NY and Toronto and so on don’t want to move to the places where people marry younger, and probably can’t due to jobs and lack of ties and so on. But .. not all of these younger marriages work out, as we know. The older marriages between UMCs have a very low divorce rate, even though they marry older and with sexual experience with others prior to marriage (there are SES-specific reasons for that, which aren’t really importable into other SESs, but still).

    If guys want to seek women in foreign cultures, that’s fine, but bringing a woman into the US will simply imprint American culture upon her, so it often isn’t that great an idea.

  6. Novaseeker

    I suppose at this point it’s too late for this information to make a difference to me, but maybe it will help some other girl…how does a woman go about “signaling” to a man that she is interested in getting married?

    I’m assuming that most Christian women would only signal to one man at a time… maybe that’s not a good assumption. Wouldn’t a man find it offputting in a woman was (by whatever means) advertising that she had a husband-shaped gap in her life and didn’t much care who filled it?

    It’s the way people think, now, yes, because now it’s all about “keeping it casual” and “it’s just a date”. In ages of yore, say like 60 years ago, there was intentional dating, such that a woman would date/court a few suitors at once, with the specific intention of evaluating them for marriage. It wasn’t seen as off-putting that there were multiple guys “in play” — after all, she was trying to vet (and her parents were as well), who was suitable for a marital match, and not just trying to have some fun, which is what dating basically is. In a dating context, of course, that kind of courtship doesn’t really “fit”. So people either date multiple people at once (“keeping it casual”, “just dating”), or they do one at a time, which tends to reduce the hit rate (due to the fact that finding someone suitable really is a numbers game, for both sexes, to a significant degree). Neither is really courtship, and both are hit and miss in terms of selecting a suitable mate (often not the ones who are most fun when one is “just dating” and “keeping it casual”).

  7. mdavid

    deti, And from what I can see, most Christian women are out there enjoying the attention their high SMVs bring them. They are out there dating and having sex just like their secular sisters. I don’t believe for a minute they are all pining away for husbands.

    Agreed 100%. It would be like telling a man at age 18 he can have all the hot 8-9 chicks he wants. In his bed, tonight, and they are knocking on his door. He could hardly help himself. Women are no different. They have not evolved to defend themselves without their parent/culture watching out for them. They cannot believe their good fortune…until, it’s too late.

    Nova,

    Overstated, I think. Average marriage age for women is 27 in the US, which is actually younger than in most other advanced countries, really.

    You make my point. America is the wealthiest country in the history of humanity (thank you, productive, family men) and our women have been spoiled with surplus for nearly 50 years. We marry for tradition, a reflex, because our parents did, but others still marry for male provision. These women generally delay marriage for the same reason men here do: they can’t find a reasonable partner with whom to breed with. Seriously, it’s pretty rough in many places overseas to raise a family from an economic POV. Many decent women are left behind, just like American men are here.

    I’m not saying overseas is a panacea. I’m saying it’s a more even playing field for traditional men, and much closer to the traditions of the past. I’m not saying this isn’t even changing as we speak with wealth creation overseas. But it’s certainly not too late as of today. Desperate times demand desperate measures, and an American passport in Japan, Oz, South America, or even Europe can go a long way to making the playing field for marriage. Hell, just the weight issue alone makes the odds jump for men. The BMI stats don’t lie. American women are the worst in history. Don’t walk, run, unless you get very lucky. And even then, assume the worst. It will only get worse.

  8. I seem to have lost a few sentences at the end of my post. I will try and recapture what I tried to say earlier.

    One reason I wrote this post is because at some point in the future I want delve into why some folks seem to get more attention from married members of the opposite sex. Another is that I wanted something to reference the next time I talk about problems with local marriage markets.

  9. @ mdavid

    Thanks, but I’ve already gotten the hint that I should be brushing up on my foreign language skills. Don’t worry, I already have my passport. Just need to find the time to start determining where I should look.

    @ deti

    Those passes were before I had found the RP/manosphere. I don’t think that I was chosen because I was attractive, I was chosen because I was seen as the dependable type. You know, beta. Most were lower SES, and so married sooner. They saw me as their beta bucks escape, I think.

    And from what I can see, most Christian women are out there enjoying the attention their high SMVs bring them. They are out there dating and having sex just like their secular sisters. I don’t believe for a minute they are all pining away for husbands. Young Christian women are delaying marriage just as much as nonChristian women are.

    Not all are unchaste. But I do agree that most aren’t interested in marriage. I’ve talked before about that young woman I met a while back who perfectly exemplifies this-planning on waiting almost a decade before marrying.

    @ Feather Blade

    Worth a post sometime in the future. I’ve written on it a bit before, so I might be able to pull some of that back up. The real problem is that an individual woman signalling means little- it requires most women to signal for men to pick up the message.

    @ Novaseeker

    Yes, there is a catch-22. The best places to marry often have the worst job opportunities.

  10. Gunner Q

    “If you date at a church, you end up with the left-overs, most of the time. … The kind of pew-warmer who’s unmarried, unsexed, and in his thirties is often alone for a reason. It’s usually a serious issue.”

    This is by far the most frustrating part of the post. Why are those unmarried pew-warmers still virgins? Because that’s what God wants: no marriage, no sex. Trugingstar’s contempt for virginity is disguised contempt for God’s will.

    The reason Trugingstar keeps getting attention from married men is because she’s seeking them out, whether she admits it or even realizes it. Preselection, most likely.

    Feather Blade: “Wouldn’t a man find it offputting if a woman was … advertising that she had a husband-shaped gap in her life and didn’t much care who filled it?”

    Nope. Men like being needed and we find many more women attractive than women do men. A suitor would, of course, need some reassurance that you aren’t a carousel rider planning a frivorce but that’s a separate issue.

  11. “I suppose at this point it’s too late for this information to make a difference to me, but maybe it will help some other girl…how does a woman go about “signaling” to a man that she is interested in getting married?”

    This is a very good question. It is all very well for us (well, Dalrock is most vocal, but I think most tacitly agree with him) to run around yelling that women aren’t signalling that they’re ready for marriage, but how can any one particular girl beat this rap?

    Frankly I’m not sure.

  12. @ dropit

    As I pointed out, one individual young woman really can’t beat the system. Just as it is for a young man. The best we can do is try and eke out a living.

  13. mdavid

    Nova, finding someone suitable really is a numbers game, for both sexes, to a significant degree

    Yes. But a social game too of how many “groups” of people one builds meaningful relationships with. This individual meets men to meet women, and women to meet more men. Think of the movie Groundhog Day or the “deep bump” from the book Never Eat Alone. A single man or woman can have hundreds of meaningful relationships with completely different social groups from all over the world, doing favors and acting in service for as many as possible. This level of exposure leads to all sorts of opportunities…while at the same time creating the illusion (no, the reality) of a DHV for the opposite sex.

    I remember in Never Eat Alone, the author hesitated before making a Happy Birthday call to a successful man he knew from a large family and community. He was thinking, sheese, this guy is having to turn his phone off from all the calls, who am I? Instead, the guy started crying and said nobody had remembered, period. The world is dying out there for men who push past all the coldness and reach out.

  14. trugingstar

    Donal, first of all, I appreciate the blog shout-out!

    Second of all, I had no idea young men were being hit-on by married women. Had no idea it worked both ways. In one respect, that’s unfortunate, but in the other, it seems to be more of a reflection on the state of marriage than on the state of married men exclusively.

    This actually gives me kind of a gateway into your world. For example, my friends, who share similar experiences to me, are at about my station in life. They rate similar in attractiveness, intellect, job, etc. You’re describing a similar market experience to mine, so I’m assuming that you rate roughly the same as a male that I do as a female. Possibly. That would depend on how well you could do in the secular SMP, compared to myself in the MMP. I think I could do well. I could make a secular marriage to someone roughly as cute as me, intelligent, well-dressed, etc.

    Now, in the same way that you aren’t interested in every woman at church, I’m not interested in every man at church. I was just making an observation: the single guys at church, for me, are getting weirder. And yes, when you have a young man with a strong sex-drive, sitting on his drive for decades, you think a couple of things. First of all, you wonder how he has the mental capacity keep it to himself: that seems strange. But many men are of the school of just sitting there sexless until the job is perfect, so that the selection increases for them, and they can score a 20-y-o 8, and triumphantly yell, “No more Mr, Nice Guy!!!!” Secondly, there’s the ever-growing crowd of men who just have something genuinely wrong with them, and would be lucky to get *any* woman, or the market rejects. That as mostly who I was talking about.
    Finally, my actual availability pool: men whom I could marry who could marry me (notice, I didn’t say “date”, because that means nothing). These are men who are personally ready for marriage when I’m ready for marriage. Within this pool, there’s a variation of attractiveness and compatibility. I *could* hypothetically make a marriage with Stu, but Stu’s a real bore. I *could* stay at our home in Possum Hill while he goes off to his engineering job, comes home to the same roast, and goes to bed at eight, but who wants that? I could put-up with his mediocre intellect and strong love for his mom, but I think I could find someone better for me. Maybe I can, maybe I can’t: there are five guys left in my overall pool.

    As the years go by, Stu will get married. Then Oscar. One by one, my pool will dry-up. That’s when I’ll reach that divorced lady’s state: *no* options. A dried-up market. That’s how women reach an expiration date.

    Chaste, God-fearing Christian guys could hypothetically wait for marriage until they’re 40 and own a mansion and a yacht. This is what secular guys do to maximize their options, but also have some fun. However, hardly any woman wants to marry the 40 year-old virgin. It’s a hot idea to marry a young, virgin dude and experience sex together exclusively. But the idea of aging virginity in men is the same as the idea of plain aging in women: it gets cringy. At age 30-something, the guy’s on a dating site begging women to consider his paycheck and house and “reliability.” He might as well be saying, “I was castrated, but I have my good qualities!” I’m not saying this is how I’d necessarily see a single, virgin 30-something, but this is what they become to the market. However, no woman is going to think that a secular 30-something is weird, because his story makes sense: “he was out having sex, and now he wants to settle down. It probably just didn’t work-out with his exes. He just wants to meet that special someone. Just like me.”

    Men don’t really carry an expiration date unless they’re religious.

    Think of it this way: In church, a woman’s MMV equals a man’s SMV, because SMV = MMV. Sex is marriage, in church. So, if you’re a guy, don’t go by what you think your MMV is: go by your secular SMV.

    You likely have “meager options” as well: so many homely women would date you. So many eligible women are sitting on their butts, waiting to “maximize” (I’m not gonna say “hypergamy,” because that strictly implies socio-economic elevation via marriage). There just aren’t enough people, and as we “rot”, our pool gets worse.

  15. allamagoosa

    “I *ahem* am the first to tell if a marriage is on the rocks, and I’ve made it into kind of a game to guess how I end up a mistress candidate in the fantasies of married fellows (cold? mean? miscarriage? former alpha? just a really guy young?).”

    What a lovely personality, making a game out of failing marriages and generally using them as an excuse to get an inflated idea of her MMV value. From my own experiences of this phenomenon, these men are looking for a shred of kindness and something nice to look at. You shouldn’t consider them the type of men you could get in other circumstances. They’re looking at you because you’re there.

    “If you date at a church, you end up with the left-overs, most of the time. Someone my age has a shot with someone in his 30s. The kind of pew-warmer who’s unmarried, unsexed, and in his thirties is often alone for a reason. It’s usually a serious issue. It’s not the same as me going out and sleeping around and meeting a thirty-something that’s sleeping around.

    In the past it may have been true that if a man wasn’t married by his 30s it was due to behavioral issues, now that is a laughable idea. Honestly, based on what she follows it with the real “problem” these men have is they aren’t “hawt”. A man successfully bagging 20 year olds is “hawt”.

    “I can’t get my equal in attractiveness, virtue, whatever, because the choice selection is meager. BUT. I can get married men. Can’t WAIT for marriage.”

    I’m going to give her the benefit of a doubt and assume she isn’t saying “Woe is me, I have to schtup all these sexy alphas because I can’t find a good man” with her closing sentence, but it is obvious that she holds Christian men in contempt and generally has a less than a stellar personality. She doesn’t even particularly come across like she’s really looking for marriage. She claims the Christian dating scene is too idealistic, but by all accounts clings to those same ideals. She’s finding reasons to discount men offhand and then complain her selections are “meager”.

  16. trugingstar

    “Allamagoosa”:

    As to your first point, I make light of it, but it’s actually scary having married people trying to get you alone with them and so on. That should be obvious. It makes one wonder why they do it.

    I don’t see why you’d single me out when Graeme has had a similar experience with married women.

    I’ll just point out that the rest of your essay is baseless conjecture.

  17. Feminine But Not Feminist

    The impression that I got from the woman in Dalrock’s post (the OP, not the commenter referenced here) is that if a man expects to get a woman who has taken care of herself and puts effort into her looks, then he should also take care of himself and put effort into his own looks, rather than letting himself go like the men messaging her on dating websites had done, and that she was frustrated about that (and I think Dalrock over-played it a bit.) Basically, you (man or woman) should expect to receive only as much as you are willing to do yourself. And, quite frankly, I see nothing wrong with that, and actually agree with it. It doesn’t mean he has to be “hawt”, it just means he needs to put forth the effort (aka, good hygiene, clean matching clothes, healthy weight / working out, grooming, that sort of thing).

    I was planning to ask a question similar to Feather Blade’s, but she beat me to it. Apart from coming right out and saying “I’m on the hunt for a husband, and I want one now”, how is a woman (young or not) supposed to get that point across? Would coming right out and saying something like that not make the woman appear desperate, making even marriage minded men back off?

    @ Trugingstar

    If you date at a church, you end up with the left-overs, most of the time. Someone my age has a shot with someone in his 30s. The kind of pew-warmer who’s unmarried, unsexed, and in his thirties is often alone for a reason. It’s usually a serious issue.

    Maybe some have serious issues, but certainly not all. Many of them simply don’t encounter decent women that they are interested in, or if they do, those women might not choose them in return for whatever reason (and not all reasons for her not choosing him are the man’s fault either, it could be that she is already off the market or something). I say this quite confidently because I know of men that are such, and they don’t have some serious issue, or are unattractive, or anything like that.

    @ mdavid

    she has gotten attention from higher value men before and she’s conflating this with her actual MMV, which is much lower (or she would be married by now).

    Re: “or she would be married by now”… maybe, maybe not. In those rare Traditional communities that you have spoken of, this is most likely true of most people, considering there are plenty of other Traditional people, which gives them all more chances to mutually choose and be chosen by the same person. But for those that don’t have such communities available to them (and lets face it, most churches don’t fit the “Traditional” bill), it can be much harder for those rogue people to find each other, and have those other people choose them in return. I’m not saying Trugingstar is a Traditional (maybe she is, maybe she isn’t… though I’m guessing that she probably isn’t, based on some of the things she said in her comment) and that what I just described is why she isn’t married yet (it was just an example of one way in which some people can miss the boat, no matter how hard they try to catch it). I’m saying you should be careful about assuming things like “if she had a good MMV she would’ve been married much younger”, when it doesn’t always apply outside of communities like yours. That’s no different than what Trugingstar said about how single virgin men in their 30’s must have something very wrong with them or else they wouldn’t still be in the position they are in. While it may be true of some, it certainly isn’t true of all of them. The current marketplace makes it difficult for many good marriage candidates (both men and women) to marry, just like Donal said in his post.

  18. @ FBNF

    Don’t have time for a proper response now, but I think you missed Dalrock’s point. Dalrock wasn’t saying that men shouldn’t clean themselves up. He wasn’t saying the men contacting that women weren’t low value. What he was saying is that because those men were the only men that woman was being contacted by, then perhaps she wasn’t as cleaned up, as high value, as she thought she was.

  19. mdavid

    FBNF, Re: “or she would be married by now”… maybe, maybe not.

    I agree with you here. Look, I’m not saying women don’t have to work at it to maximize their MMV, even if they marry young. Their largest problem here is inexperience and access to men; by definition, one cannot marry young and still know for sure “what’s out there”. It’s a gamble. In this case, I assumed Trug was fairly attractive and not traditional at all based upon her comments; if this is wrong, my analysis is wrong.

    But let’s not beat around the bush. Women benefit today from late marriage. So it’s pretty hard to feel sympathy when they wait too long and get burned. If my daughters aren’t married by 23, I won’t have any sympathy if they start whining about the lack of men at 30.

  20. Feminine But Not Feminist

    @ Donal

    What he was saying is that because those men were the only men that woman was being contacted by, then perhaps she wasn’t as cleaned up, as high value, as she thought she was.

    Oh, I know. 🙂 I was pointing out a different interpretation of what the woman in Dalrock’s post was saying, since I thought Dalrock was misinterpreting her, and then making a bit of a mockery of her. You said: However, what I understand Dalrock to actually say is that the woman he was quoting from was convinced that because she was so attractive there were few good options for men available to her. In essence, because she was so high-value she was “priced out of the market.”, which is what I interpreted Dalrock to be saying too. I just think he misinterpreted her (though I could be wrong, considering I read his post in a hurry). And since you also said that This seems to be the very same attitude expressed by the commenter,, I figured it necessary to offer another perspective of the woman’s possible intentions in Dalrock’s post, in case it could affect this one.

    @ mdavid

    In this case, I assumed Trug was fairly attractive and not traditional at all based upon her comments; if this is wrong, my analysis is wrong.

    You might not be wrong about her, considering what she said about how she’s been on hundreds of dates… contrary to what many of the manospherian men are convinced of, only the most drop-dead-gorgeous women can manage to get that many date requests (and I’m not counting hookup attempts as date requests, because they aren’t the same thing by any means).

    But let’s not beat around the bush. Women benefit today from late marriage. So it’s pretty hard to feel sympathy when they wait too long and get burned. If my daughters aren’t married by 23, I won’t have any sympathy if they start whining about the lack of men at 30.

    I don’t see how women “benefit” from late marriage… please elaborate? I also have no sympathy for women that choose to delay marriage while they are younger, then complain about the men available to them when they do finally decide to marry. But I do feel for the ones that do the best they know how to do to find a good husband while they are young, but still fail (for whatever reason), especially since I’m one of them (I’m 29 and have been trying to get married for 10 years, but have failed so far). As such, what if your daughters obviously try to marry young, but it still takes them several years to find a good guy that wants to marry them specifically… will you sympathize with them then?

  21. I was planning to ask a question similar to Feather Blade’s, but she beat me to it. Apart from coming right out and saying “I’m on the hunt for a husband, and I want one now”, how is a woman (young or not) supposed to get that point across? Would coming right out and saying something like that not make the woman appear desperate, making even marriage minded men back off?

    Women should always be using their most valuable asset… womens’ social networking ability. Especially the married women at the churches/parishes/etc.

  22. allamagoosa

    @trugingstar

    My apologies, I did get out of line. I reacted to your flippant tone, and the idea that all single men over 30 have something wrong with them. I have reasons for that, but they don’t justify my behavior.

    And I am aware of what it is like to have the attentions of someone who is married, as I mentioned I have also experienced that.

    I am sorry, and with your permission I’ll ask Donal to delete my previous comment. It’s mean spirited and doesn’t contribute anything to the thread anyway.

  23. The reason Trugingstar keeps getting attention from married men is because she’s seeking them out, whether she admits it or even realizes it. Preselection, most likely.

    I agree. Preselection is the main motivating force here. We can be sure there are unmarried men interested in her, but she screens them out without reaizing it. The men she notices are already taken.

  24. By secular, I mean not sleeping around, but going on hundreds of first dates that fail the “how often do you go to church?” test.

    I don’t get what she’s trying to get at here. Is it that she rejects hundreds of men on the first date because she finds out they aren’t attending church?

  25. If you date at a church, you end up with the left-overs, most of the time. Someone my age has a shot with someone in his 30s. The kind of pew-warmer who’s unmarried, unsexed, and in his thirties is often alone for a reason. It’s usually a serious issue. It’s not the same as me going out and sleeping around and meeting a thirty-something that’s sleeping around.

    This makes no sense. What she says probably applies to the secular mating market, that’s true. In other words, yes, if a 30-something man is unsexed even though he’s not a member of some religious community where chastity is expected from all singles, plus he has made no such vows, he has either opted out of the mating game or he has issues preventing him from finding willing sexual partners. But I’m not sure this applies to churches where chastity is expected from single men.

    So, why all the cheating? Why all the poor selection? Duh: everyone knows this – uncommitted (by this, I mean “unmarried,” not necessarily ONS) sex outside of the church, marriage (especially male) discouragement within the church, creates no reason for *sexually attractive* men to marry. It also creates a surplus of women who are available *to such men* for extramarital sex.

    There, fixed that for you.

  26. is that if a man expects to get a woman who has taken care of herself and puts effort into her looks, then he should also take care of himself and put effort into his own looks

    Except that a man doesn’t have to put the same effort into looks as a woman in order to attain the same mating market value.

  27. how does a woman go about “signaling” to a man that she is interested in getting married?

    If she’s so dense she needs to be given detailed advice about that, we can safely assume she’s pretty much a lost cause. I mean, really? A young woman has no idea how to signal she’s open for marriage?

  28. mdavid

    FBNF, I don’t see how women “benefit” from late marriage… please elaborate?

    They date, screw, and bask in the attention of high value men when young and hot, then offer the leftovers to betas when they get baby rabies. Sadly, they often succeed. The ones who fail lack my sympathy.

  29. mdavid

    But I do feel for the ones that do the best they know how to do to find a good husband while they are young, but still fail (for whatever reason)

    Look, ideas have consequences. When a woman turns 16, the clock has started and it runs out at 26. That’s 10 years. It’s her parent’s job to teach her this. If they fail, she pays the price.

  30. trugingstar

    Allamagoosa: You’re good! Don’t worry about it. 🙂

    Hoellenhund2: If you’re going to accuse me of seeking out married individuals, it stands to reason that you would accuse others on here, who share my experience, of the same thing.

    Finally, I’ll just make a few points:

    1. It’s understandable for a man to actively meet women while single with the goal of obtaining sex. It’s odd for a man to sit in the same pew every Sunday and never get up, because women are heartbreakers or because he’s waiting for destiny, etc. Sexual energy is going to come from the man. If a man is so dismissive about ever getting laid (after marriage, obviously) that he doesn’t even put effort into it until he reaches 30, then I’m going to wonder if he has a malfunction.

    2. No, looks matter for men. Any form of effort matters for men. If a guy is sitting there with a beer-gut, a bad haircut, and short pants, then I’m going to notice that he’s not thinking about how to get married, i.e., laid. He’s prioritizing cheese or greatness or Nintendo or some other thing that’s not a woman. A lot of men in the church realize the gender ratio, and think that if they sit there apathetically, the women will just swarm. Women are more likely to missionary date than to date “that guy.” No, you still have to make yourself attractive: then, you’ll do well.

    3. Women can’t help what they find attractive, nor should they be expected to. Let me back it up and say that as much as we like to think that the ugliest man and the ugliest woman can get married, they won’t, because they aren’t attracted to the other ugly person. Now, maybe you’re an attractive guy, but the only single women around you are moon-faced and morbidly obese: you just call your options “0”, even though you could technically wife one of them. It’s an even more likely scenario that a woman will have unattractive options, due to the ratio of women to men at church and lack of men desiring marriage.

  31. Hank Flanders

    trugingstar

    But the idea of aging virginity in men is the same as the idea of plain aging in women: it gets cringy.

    Let’s think about this for a moment. What if the guy has had sex, but it’s been 12 years? Does the cringiness still apply? Yes? Then how how about if it’s been six months? Does he need to have gotten regular sex every week since puberty? What frequency of sex and with what variety of partners does a man need to have had in order for his cringe factor to go away? Is a virgin man’s penis simply presumed not to work?

  32. mdavid

    As such, what if your daughters obviously try to marry young, but it still takes them several years to find a good guy that wants to marry them specifically… will you sympathize with them then?

    It’s a parents job to give their daughter:
    a) skills to be a good wife (cook, clean, support)
    b) the opportunities & social connections to meet men
    c) the truth about the time crunch she is facing
    d) a good diet & lifestyle to remain in physical shape
    e) skills on how to act feminine.

    If, as a parent, I do all those things and she still isn’t married by 23, she’s to blame (if she really wants to get married, she may not). She needs to start ratcheting down her expectations or just drop the marriage fantasy.

  33. mdavid

    trudgingstar, I don’t disagree with anything you are saying. It’s all true; men at my church don’t give a damn. Dirty, ill-groomed, fat, weak. I tailor/press clothing, stay in shape, groom, introduce myself, and thought this was normal. But less than 5% of men at church do these things anymore.

    BUT: women set up this situation. Men merely responded to it. I constantly warn my sons to avoid women over 23 like cancer and not to even consider women not clearly signaling humility (dresses, long hair, pleasant, etc.). This is merely practical; too damn much risk for men today. And of course they should consider MGTOW and/or a religious vocation to avoid women altogether. And I’m happily married! I can only imagine what men with bad personal experiences are telling their sons.

  34. Novaseeker

    Basically, you (man or woman) should expect to receive only as much as you are willing to do yourself. And, quite frankly, I see nothing wrong with that, and actually agree with it. It doesn’t mean he has to be “hawt”, it just means he needs to put forth the effort (aka, good hygiene, clean matching clothes, healthy weight / working out, grooming, that sort of thing).

    MMV and SMV are odd things, though, in that they are not the same for each sex.

    My GF noted this once when we were discussing it from the other point of view — that is, say, a 28 yo man who is a “looks 6” trying to attract women who are also a “looks 6”. The rest of the package the man has may detract from his overall attractiveness, such that even though he is a looks 6, his “total SMV peer” is not a 6, but a 5, because taking the rest of LAMPS/PSALM into account, he is a 5 despite his 6 rated looks. Yet he feels entitled to a looks 6 because when he looks into the mirror he sees a male looks 6 looking back at him (assuming he is assessing himself accurately for the purposes of this hypothetical, in terms of his physical appearance). So he feels annoyed he can only get 5s and not 6s, and that 6s are not attracted to him.

    The same seems to hold true for the woman in Dalrock’s post. Just because she is a well-preserved 57 yo doesn’t mean she is entitled to the same kind of well-preserved man of that age, because age matters more for women than it does for men in SMV. Her SMV is actually lower than a man who is equally well-preserved at that age, if he has the LAMPS/PSALM factors in his favor. But those are the kinds of men she sees as her peers, just like the male “looks 6” in the hypothetical above. In both cases, the person is not taking into account their total value, and really looking for a “looks peer”, which is not really reflective of their overall SMV at that point in time. In this case, it’s because a woman’s SMV drops quite a lot at that age, even if she is at the top of the pile for her age, because a man who has that level of looks (and the rest of the package she is seeking — cultured, which generally means successful, intelligent, etc.) is capable of attracting women with higher SMVs than this one, who are in their mid to late 40s. That’s a mismatch she isn’t seeing, just like the male “looks 6” above.

    At the same time, it’s true that there are “attraction floors” for men and women alike. Both sexes can fall into this trap when they are so low in SMV, such that they can’t attract someone who is above their attraction floor. I think for older women who are better preserved, the problem becomes that they have real issues attracting men who are looks/age peers because these men have access to younger and higher SMV women. The prospect of dating the men who are interested in them can be unappealing. That’s understandable, given their own life history and experience as being the “pretty girl”, likely, but 57 as a woman is 57. It’s different from 57 as a man, provided the man has also taken care of himself and has PSALM going for him. He’s not the match of a well-preserved 57 yo woman, but of a late 40s woman.

  35. @hollenhund2
    Is it that she rejects hundreds of men on the first date because she finds out they aren’t attending church?

    Yes. There’s no point in going on more than one date with a guy if he fails the most basic marriage criterion. Doing so puts one at risk of becoming attached and going stupid.

    If she’s so dense she needs to be given detailed advice about that, we can safely assume she’s pretty much a lost cause. I mean, really? A young woman has no idea how to signal she’s open for marriage?

    Like any social skill, this one must be taught and learned.
    Today’s society provides a lot of training on how to signal that one is DTF, but not a lot of training on how to signal that one wants to be married.

    Signaling DTF is easy – clothes that are cut juuust low or high enough to slightly expose interesting areas, smoky makeup and a “come-hither” stare – but for marriage? What do you, randomly ply the guy with food?

    Other women are full of advice, but there’s no guarantee that what worked for them 20 years ago will work for a woman now. The younger married women aren’t any more informative: “Oh, just wait and pray and God will dump a husband in your lap like he did for me~.” …I guess I’m not a strong enough Christian to consider private prayer for a husband to count as “signalling”.

    What is needed is a concrete and visible step that one can take or procedure that one can implement in the presence of one for whom you would like to express interest.

    So, if one can no longer trust the teaching of other women, it is only logical to ask the men what would indicate to them that a woman wants to be married.

  36. Elspeth

    @ mdavid:

    I think we as parents have covered everything on your list except “b: the opportunities & social connections to meet men”.

    Our girls very well may pay the price for that, because frankly, I have absolutely no idea how to even begin to address that in our current locale and environment.

  37. mdavid

    Elspeth, I would suggest:
    a) try coed hobbies and network (sports, dancing, singing, drama, art, chess)
    b) enlarge your own personal circle of friends (we have somebody for dinner every month minimum; place a premium on fellow parents with kids), host parties and dancing
    c) send your kid to a religious college with instructions to be married by graduation; switch schools if things look poor
    d) have them work jobs and rotate a lot
    e) teach them how to network and keep themselves “in the game”; a woman or man who has a broad social network becomes more attractive and socially skilled

  38. mdavid

    FB, …it is only logical to ask the men what would indicate to them that a woman wants to be married.

    Long hair. Long dresses. In shape. Clean appearance. Cotton over synthetics. No tee-shirts. Primary colors. Whole colors. Long sleeves. Few patterns. Limited heels. Limited skin. Happy smile. No sarcasm. Few jeans. No makeup. No lipstick. No perfume. Shyness. Talking to potential men with humility. No ditzy. Attending church. Asking potentials on formal dates. Inviting potentials for dinner. Avoiding women who look like sluts. No party life. Doing charity work. Looking directly but humbly at a man when talking to him. Showing interest in a man’s life to anyone; word gets around.

  39. @mdavid: Thank you. That is a highly informative list. I’ve got most of that covered, except…
    Asking potentials on formal dates. Inviting potentials for dinner.
    You’re talking about the woman asking the man? Isn’t that too forward?

    Since you’ve differentiated “formal dates” and “dinner”, I presume you mean “invite potentials to the house for dinner.” Wouldn’t this be right out if the woman lives alone?

  40. mdavid

    You’re talking about the woman asking the man? Isn’t that too forward?

    It’s not preferred. But desperate times demand desperate measures. Just never lose the “shy” frame when doing it. I’m as chauvinist as they come and I’ve been picked up by women and never thought twice (my ego hamster rationalized she just couldn’t help herself).

    Wouldn’t this be right out if the woman lives alone?

    Again, not preferred, but men are pussies and other women will so it’s well worth the risk. It can even be done under cover (help moving furniture with dinner payment, or with a group for cards or a party to start).

  41. KP

    Feather,

    I’m assuming that most Christian women would only signal to one man at a time… maybe that’s not a good assumption.

    That’s a terrible assumption. Until you get to the point of signing on to some kind of exclusive relationship, of course you can/should be (chastely!) signaling anyone who might be of some interest.

    Wouldn’t a man find it offputting in a woman was (by whatever means) advertising that she had a husband-shaped gap in her life and didn’t much care who filled it?

    Good grief, whatever makes you think that last phrase is a corrolary of the first one?

    Then, from your later reply:

    There’s no point in going on more than one date with a guy if he fails the most basic marriage criterion.

    OK, fine, I absolutely agree. But the cited hundreds of first dates? Clearly she’s going about finding prospects in the wrong way, somehow…

  42. So I did a bit more thinking on this.

    I’m LDS, and we take the whole chastity thing very seriously. So whenever there’s anything remotely romantic between me and a chick, it’s assumed to be headed toward marriage. It may never get there, it may be jumping the gun to say the M-word at any particular moment, but generally it’s understood on both sides that we won’t be having sex until then, and that we won’t end up living in an apartment somewhere with me saying “It’s just a ceremony babe, what’s the big deal.”

    So empirically: Be part of a community that takes premarital sex seriously. That’s one way to signal it. Of course you still have to signal that you’re into me, and I have to also be into you, but that’s well-trod (by us anyway) territory.

    But such communities can be scarce, or diluted. So how else?

    Another (complementary rather than conflicting) method would be to be SuperGirl. That girl who somehow manages to, simultaneously:

    — always look good,
    — be domestically skilled
    — be fun to hang out with
    — while doing all of the above, be devoid of contempt towards a dude who isn’t quite ready for marriage (career, dress sense, something)

    Please don’t misunderstand me. I have a rough approximation of how hard all that is and I am not putting this forward as a male checklist. But hard times call for hard measures, and just as guys have to put forth more effort (not because the girl “deserves it,” but because the guy has so much chaff to wade through), I think this is what a girl who wanted to succeed at all costs would be well-advised to do (or attempt, anyway).

  43. KP

    seriously… ,

    devoid of contempt towards a dude…

    You could have stopped it right there and it would have been enough. Remember the “80% of guys are simply invisible to women” aspect? Just cut through that, as a woman, and you’ve got a good start.

  44. Rather busy at the moment, so I can’t respond to any comments right now. Appreciate everyone contributing, and hope that we can keep things civil, earlier bumps in the road notwithstanding.

  45. trugingstar

    Mdavid, it’s really up to your sons to figure-out who to marry. You don’t have enough of a grasp on the current dating market to even give advice, let alone dictate conditions. This is a common issue that I see with the older generation, and it’s leading my parent-pleasing generation to sexual immorality. I’m not sure what religion you are, but as a Christian, the Bible clearly states that it’s anyone’s place to set-up requirements for anyone to marry, other than the respected parties. (Ephesians 5:3) Also, you have to consider that if your son meets a woman who, for all intents and purposes, is a genuinely Christian woman, he’ll be better off marrying that jeans-wearing, man-rebuking, 24-year-old Christian woman than waiting for Princess Whitewashed Tomb and accidentally fornicating with Jezebel. Or worse, going absolutely crazy and raping someone or taking out a gun to a preschool, because his testosterone is given so little respect. I’m gonna be your son, “Oh, I don’t feel like using toilet paper today, because there’s no one I’m allowed to marry anyway.”

    You know what’s worse, is that the older generations/ people who marry young are giving all this stupid advice to chaste 20- 30-somethings, as “superiors”, when I know they were out fornicating and I wasn’t. It’s like, okay, suck it up and realize that I should be teaching YOU about purity. I don’t walk around with the pretense of “confusion” getting my shag on, only to come back later and go, “Jesus, I’m just, I’m just, I’m just so sorry. That was wrong, wasn’t it?” Not only that, but to go out and competitively, lustfully fornicate, “repent,” and then act all head-hancho/ perfectly pious woman and give “advice” to single people and tell us to “be faithful” and wait for God’s destiny, is prideful bullcrap that God hates. To take that a step further and lather on guilt young people for not fulfilling an impractical, Utopian standard when you could fulfill your basic requirement of keeping your pants on is detestable. Finally, withholding practical advice on how to get married, because you’re so picky about who spouses your kid, is criminal. LOL, tell them what worked for YOU.

    I only have time to respond to one person right now, but I’d like to participate more in this conversation later. There’s actually an article on my blog (https://trugingstar.wordpress.com/2014/10/19/purity-liars/) about how the whole “Purity Culture” thing is possibly the roots of a heresy that Rabbi Paul is warning our generation about. Note that I’m not against the Biblical concept of purity.

  46. @ Feather Blade

    “Wouldn’t a man find it offputting if a woman was … advertising that she had a husband-shaped gap in her life and didn’t much care who filled it?”

    She should advertise the former (that she has a husband-shaped gap in her life) but not the latter (i.e. she should be reasonably discerning in terms of choosing a man to fill it).

    Unfortunately, most women try to avoid coming of as “desperate” by acting like they don’t much care for marriage or “don’t need a man”. This makes it impossible to distinguish between those who seek marriage but pretend not to, and those who’re truly uninterested in marriage.

  47. @ trugingstar

    Chaste, God-fearing Christian guys could hypothetically wait for marriage until they’re 40 and own a mansion and a yacht. This is what secular guys do to maximize their options, but also have some fun. However, hardly any woman wants to marry the 40 year-old virgin. It’s a hot idea to marry a young, virgin dude and experience sex together exclusively. But the idea of aging virginity in men is the same as the idea of plain aging in women: it gets cringy. At age 30-something, the guy’s on a dating site begging women to consider his paycheck and house and “reliability.” He might as well be saying, “I was castrated, but I have my good qualities!” I’m not saying this is how I’d necessarily see a single, virgin 30-something, but this is what they become to the market. However, no woman is going to think that a secular 30-something is weird, because his story makes sense: “he was out having sex, and now he wants to settle down. It probably just didn’t work-out with his exes. He just wants to meet that special someone. Just like me.”

    Men don’t really carry an expiration date unless they’re religious.

    And what about a secular but chaste guy? He doesn’t even have the excuse of being religious. Even weirder than the religious guy.

  48. @ FBNF

    The impression that I got from the woman in Dalrock’s post (the OP, not the commenter referenced here) is that if a man expects to get a woman who has taken care of herself and puts effort into her looks, then he should also take care of himself and put effort into his own looks, rather than letting himself go like the men messaging her on dating websites had done, and that she was frustrated about that (and I think Dalrock over-played it a bit.) Basically, you (man or woman) should expect to receive only as much as you are willing to do yourself. And, quite frankly, I see nothing wrong with that, and actually agree with it. It doesn’t mean he has to be “hawt”, it just means he needs to put forth the effort (aka, good hygiene, clean matching clothes, healthy weight / working out, grooming, that sort of thing).

    Should this be applied to other desired traits as well? (E.g. if you want to marry a man who can provide for you with a decent job and stable income, you should have a decent job and stable income yourself)?

  49. @ FBNF

    I was planning to ask a question similar to Feather Blade’s, but she beat me to it. Apart from coming right out and saying “I’m on the hunt for a husband, and I want one now”, how is a woman (young or not) supposed to get that point across? Would coming right out and saying something like that not make the woman appear desperate, making even marriage minded men back off?

    This is projection. Women who say they’re actively looking for a husband are not going to appear desperate to marriage-minded men. Sure, they might if they seem awfully in a hurry and on a rapid timeline (i.e. woman in her 30s desperately trying to find a husband before she runs out of eggs). But not if they simply state their desire for a husband and that they’re actively looking.

  50. @ FBNF

    You might not be wrong about her, considering what she said about how she’s been on hundreds of dates… contrary to what many of the manospherian men are convinced of, only the most drop-dead-gorgeous women can manage to get that many date requests (and I’m not counting hookup attempts as date requests, because they aren’t the same thing by any means).

    Is this something that manospherian men are convinced of? If anything, it seems like a female expectation that they should be getting hundreds of dates. I know I personally find myself rolling my eyes whenever some woman online complains that women have it hard too and that she “only” gets asked on a date once every few months… First world problems really.

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