An R-Rated Subject

Today’s relatively short and hastily written post is going to address a subject that may not be for everyone. I’m sure that more than a few of my readers will not care for it at all. It is bound to generate some heated debate and disagreement.

The subject, of course, is romance.

Recently I was engaged in a conversation with a young woman who reads my blog on occasion and she indicated that she didn’t believe that men cared about romance at all. I disagreed, and asked why she thought that. She pointed towards the manosphere/androsphere  and the fact that most of the men in that community deride romance. Apparently for her discovering the ‘sphere had been something of an epiphany, as it had informed her that men weren’t interested in romance. While cautioning that the ‘sphere isn’t necessarily an accurate cross-section of men, I disagreed with her conclusion that the ‘sphere demonstrates that most men aren’t romantic or otherwise have no sense of romance.

If anything, I explained, the rise and “success” of the ‘sphere owes to the fact that men are the more romantic of the sexes [an area where Rollo and I are in agreement]. The reason why so many men find their way here, in fact the reason the ‘sphere exists, is in large part because many men were romantic for a large part of their lives. And that it didn’t work very well for them.

Men might not be very romantic, but if so then women are even less romantic. For all their talk of romance and its associated trappings- flowers, poetry, letters and the like, women these days sure don’t hesitate to associate themselves with men who display zero interest in romance. And by associate I mean sleep with, if not pursue (and sometimes get) relationships with, such men. As for those men who are interested in romance… well, the word Incel doesn’t exist because some guy got bored and decided to make something up.

If the men in these parts don’t seem very romantically inclined, I would argue it is because their romantic nature was burned out of them. By women. And by extension poor advice from other men. Men can only sustain so many rejections…. they can only watch for so long as women abandon the romantics for the players and cads whose idea of a gift is skittles… and men can only tolerate so much betrayal before their sense of romance collapses in on itself and dies like a red giant turning into a white dwarf.

She disagreed. Instead of believing that most men start as romantics, she argued that most men took to romance only because they thought it would work. That it would get them the female attention they so greatly (and desperately) desired. I started to compose an argument to rebut hers, but then realized that I was basing most of what I would say on just myself. As someone who was (from an early age) and still is, a romantic at heart, I would naturally disagree that most men are just mercenary about romance. The thing is, I don’t actually know that most men are really like that. I’m not exactly an average male in a number of ways, and I know I’m not a representative sample.

So while I understand the sample size is small, I’m hoping my male readers here can chime in. Do you consider yourself a romantic? If you aren’t now, where you a romantic at some point in the past, before the world turned you away from romance? What caused you to lose your sense of romance?

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91 Comments

Filed under Alpha, Attraction, Blue Pill, Masculinity, Men, Red Pill, Sex, Women

91 responses to “An R-Rated Subject

  1. I can believe that guys are capable of being romantics.
    But if guys are such romantics, how come most of them don’t want to wait until marriage?

  2. deti

    “But if guys are such romantics, how come most of them don’t want to wait until marriage?”

    Wait for what? Sex?

    Because romance is supposed to be what gets men what they want — sex. At least that’s what we were told.

    Being a romantic doesn’t mean we check our libidos at the door.

  3. I thought Sigyn was a man until I read this thread. *blinks* I read her handle as a variation of the old-fashioned Gaelic name “Sinjun”.

    Sigyn is referring to Butterfly Flower. It is not relevant, so she has to misrepresent my point to make her own. […] BF would occasionally appear and no matter what the subject, she would be sure to mention how mean and bitchy Christian women treated her badly.

    I didn’t even comment on this post 😦 Heck, I haven’t commented on the blogosphere for almost a year! I suffered a stillbirth and developed acute liver failure…I almost died.

    [DG: I am very sorry for your loss BF. You will be in my prayers. I deleted the rest of your comment per your request, and because it was veering this conversation way off topic.]

  4. Hello, Butterfly Flower. We’ve never met, I’m pretty sure. I’m sorry you were made to believe I would badmouth you in your absence, especially not having interacted with you before.

    And I am very sorry for your loss and to hear that you’ve been having health problems. I hope you’re doing well now?

  5. …Oops, meant to say “very sorry for your loss and to hear…” Where did that bit of text go?

    Though that’s more than an “oops” error. *grimace*

    [DG: Fixed]

  6. @ Sigyn, BF

    Since your conversation will likely go well outside the parameters of this discussion, I would ask that you move it elsewhere- either onto another post or another blog. I suppose I should have an off-topic page somewhere for this kind of thing….

  7. First romance begins in one thoughts follow by a plan then it must be follow by action making her feel that she is the only woman on earth because she is a man must use soft creative words that make her float listening to her words then making her words important because they are at the end of the night giving her a taste of whom you are that she would desire more without touching her through the evening only contact you have with her is by the words you have spoken.

    *baffled*

    This deserves a response, but I’m having a hard time phrasing it…

    Has this…uh…worked for you there, Perry?

    [DG: I let it through because I was hoping that someone would make sense of it for me. Guess I was hoping for too much.]

  8. Since your conversation will likely go well outside the parameters of this discussion, I would ask that you move it elsewhere- either onto another post or another blog. I suppose I should have an off-topic page somewhere for this kind of thing….

    The OT Marauder, unlike lightning, apparently strikes twice in one thread.

  9. @ Lovelyleblanc7

    But if guys are such romantics, how come most of them don’t want to wait until marriage?

    You are equating romance with marriage. But such a thing isn’t necessarily the case, as our society has presently shown. Romance isn’t even necessarily tied to morality. Someone could be a romantic and not have a belief system that prohibits premarital sexuality.

    Something most women probably should understand, if they don’t already:

    Men don’t separate or compartmentalize sex and romance. To a (normal, healthy) man, they are both meshed together. For a man, a night of romance doesn’t end right if it doesn’t involve sex- which is usually seen as the capstone of the evening.

    One way of thinking about it is this- for a man romancing a woman, his romantic efforts are him demonstrating the importance of that woman in his life. A sign that she isn’t disposable, or just being used. That instead he cares deeply for her. And what he wants (perhaps even needs in a visceral sense) is for her to demonstrate that she cares as deeply for him as he does for her. And she demonstrates that care by giving to him the gift of her body.

    Mind you, all of this is from outside a Christian perspective- as Christians we should know and live our lives recognizing that romance, like sex, belongs inside marriage.

  10. You can just delete my comment (And I’d appreciate if you deleted all of the ones referencing me – especially Shadow Knights. If he doesn’t want me commenting here he can just send me hatemail). I never even wanted to reply to this discussion.

    [DG: I will delete part of yours, the OT part, at this time. Later I might delete the others. Although I think you misinterpret his views- TSK doesn’t have a problem with you from what I can tell.]

  11. deti

    Men don’t separate or compartmentalize sex and romance.

    Yes. The PUA is still “romancing” his “target”, even if it doesn’t look like it.

    Men can, however, separate and compartmentalize sex and love. and can separate romance and love. They should not do so; but they are able to do so.

  12. deti

    RRRR. supposed to be quotation marks around the first sentence.

  13. A Visitor

    “And by associate I mean sleep with, if not pursue (and sometimes get) relationships with, such men.”

    Exactly.

    “Instead of believing that most men start as romantics, she argued that most men took to romance only because they thought it would work.” If she’s reading this post, I have news for her, that’s not why we thought it would work. How many times have we been told growing up, “Be yourself” “Be a nice guy” “Women like nice guys”? How many times can any one of us point out how demonstrably false those words of advice are?

    At one point I was a romantic…I might still be. What has slowly changed me is observing women after having swallowed the red pill and realizing that they say one thing and do another.

    “Yet, he bemoans being burned out on the player scene and laments the meaninglessness of sex devoid of emotional connection. He hates the fact that he must perform like a court jester to secure sex.”

    That’s Roosh’s problem right there. He separates sex from its natural circumstance: within marriage and is simply left with an act. Eventually, one can become washed up and feel used. Small surprise.

    “This is true even of Christian women, who have set themselves in the cultural flow and are of the world, not simply in it.”

    Deti, makes a good point here about why men pursued the player lifestyle. Do Christian women, as a whole, even dress modestly any more? How are we expected, as men, to go above and beyond with romantic gestures to women who dress in skimpy outfits? Why would one even want to entertain a romantic gesture towards a woman dressed in such a way?

  14. femininebutnotfeminist

    Wow this thread is hoppin’. I for one appreciate all the men here being so open about this. Who knew Deti had a tender side? 😉 (kidding, Deti)

    I wonder if the fact that most women have exaggerated ideas about romance is at play here. What I mean is, most women only equate the “grand gestures” with romance, and expect a man to top his past efforts each time, making it next to impossible for men to measure up in women’s eyes. (According to a conversation I had with a man a while back about romance). Whereas most men equate any kind of display of affection, either “grand” or “small”, with romance. So men do a whole bunch of romantic things for the women they love, but since those women only look for the grand gestures, they decide that men aren’t really romantic at all. But if the women would just correct their definition of romance to mean “displays of affection”, and learn to recognize their man’s actions for what they really are, they would see that men actually *are* romantics at heart after all. Just a theory.

  15. Donalgraeme,
    Thanks. You explained that more clearly than Deti. That question wasn’t meant as an attack, but a genuine question out of curiosity.
    I guess since I’m giving this from a female perspective, I equate romance with commitment. And what deeper commitment than marriage? Sex should be reserved for the one who chooses to commit spending the rest of their life with you.
    This is why I assumed romantic men would understand a women who would like to wait until marriage, but that isn’t the case.

    Butterfly Flower, Sorry for your loss. You have my prayers.

  16. Lovely, there is some equation of romance with commitment. But marriage, or lifelong commitment, is a heady thing, especially these days. I suspect that in the past a lot more men were inclined to move romance towards marriage, but certainly in today’s environment this is no longer the case.

    And I don’t think you view is so much a female perspective as a Christian one, if the most of the women I know are any indication.

  17. theshadowedknight

    I can’t believe you forgot how my husband took it out of you over that…

    I don’t even know Butterfly Flower and I don’t think I ever interacted with her. But that was really impressive, how you put all that together with not a scrap of evidence!

    It was the only thing I remembered that had anything to do with Asians, so I simply assumed that you were referring to that incident. I forgot the conversation with your husband, because it was focused on men abandoning America, not which specific race I would join. Since you reminded me, I went to check, and look what I found. This is directly copied from the post in question, on Alpha Game Plan:

    I was thinking Eastern Europe, or maybe Southeast Asia.

    You lied in order to discredit me. Dredging up posts from over a year ago and misrepresenting them? That demonstrates a lack of class and honesty that would be disappointing if it were not to be expected from you.

    The Shadowed Knight

  18. theshadowedknight

    I wonder if the fact that most women have exaggerated ideas about romance is at play here.

    No, in fact, I say that is actually an advantage. Men see acts of romance as signs of love. Women see them as signs of status. If women were to see all the little things men do to be romantic, they would assume that men were of much lower status. Men would be unable to form any sort of emotional bonds with women, and would come to hate women. Be thankful that you do not understand.

    I guess since I’m giving this from a female perspective, I equate romance with commitment. And what deeper commitment than marriage? Sex should be reserved for the one who chooses to commit spending the rest of their life with you.

    What deeper commitment than marriage? What shallower commitment than marriage? A loan is more commitment than marriage is.

    Men no longer have the assurance that they will spend the rest of their life with any woman. They get what they can, while they can. Men know what the commitment of a woman is worth. If sex is only for a lifetime commitment and a lifetime commitment no longer exists, then sex will be separated from lifetime commitment.

    The Shadowed Knight

  19. I tend to associate romance with “stuff guys do for chicks way out of their league, in the hopes that said chick will give them sex”. I used to observe that all the time in high school.

    I can only recall a few instances of overt romance in my life, but they all involved guys I was already dating, they all made me melt, and I still cherish the memories.

    I’m the most romantic woman I know (in that I have a great appreciation for sacrificial deeds, even merely symbolic ones, because I’m so prone to them myself), but I’m not that good at eliciting the emotion in men. With most women, it’s the opposite.

  20. But if the women would just correct their definition of romance to mean “displays of affection”

    What possible incentive could they have to do that? If they acknowledge the small gestures, then men would never bother with the grand ones and the smaller ones would also eventually grind to a halt.

    Men don’t become more generous just because she acts more grateful, anymore than she will act more grateful just because he’s become more generous. The natural incentive is always the opposite.

  21. TSK, your grasp of reality is so unique that I am at a loss for words.

    But more than that, I am not the topic of this thread, and I recommend you respect Donal’s request and get back to what is.

  22. Thank you for clarifying.
    Marriage and romance are two different things these days I guess.

  23. deti

    “your grasp of reality is so unique that I am at a loss for words”

    Such extremes, Sigyn. Calm down.

    “Women see [signs of romance from men] as signs of status.”

    Only if she is attracted to the man offering them. This is all a function of attraction, really. And the scale of the romantic gesture is irrelevant. From an unattractive man, grand romantic gestures are creepy and repulsive; small gestures are unnoticed as such, but are received as mere tribute. From an attractive man, grand and small gestures are welcomed.

  24. deti

    @ Alte:

    “If they acknowledge the small gestures, then men would never bother with the grand ones and the smaller ones would also eventually grind to a halt.

    “Men don’t become more generous just because she acts more grateful,”

    You certainly do have a low opinion of most men. Either that, or it’s lack of observation; or lack of comprehension of what you observe. I think it’s just the opposite — I think most men are quite generous in response to demonstrations of gratitude. If women would simply show some modicum of gratitude, romantic gestures grand and small would abound and proliferate.

  25. DJ

    What is romance?( Honestly I dont know and thats why I ask )Cause maybe its not being understood correctly. If u are with someone who loves you and you arent getting what u need maybe they need u to explain whats missing.

  26. femininebutnotfeminist

    @ TSK,

    My comment was in reference to married couples where the man does all sorts of things for his wife to show her affection, but she complains that he doesn’t have a romantic bone in his body and wishes he were more romantic. But that if she expanded her definition to include all manner of displays of affection instead of expecting the grand gestures every day, she would realize he is in fact a romantic. I wasn’t talking about a single man attempting to use romance to win over a woman he wants, but she instead isn’t responsive to it because she isn’t attracted to him, like a bunch of people here are talking about. So this “status” stuff doesn’t really apply, or even make sense to me. And I personally understand that all the little things men do are meant as romance, which is why it would be rather easy for my husband to please me romantically. Like, my favorite display of affection is a good long hug that lasts for at least a few minutes. Getting those everyday would be the equivalent of getting a candlelit dinner type of grand gesture everyday, for me. And no, I wouldn’t think of him as being low status for doing this. I would feel closer to him, which is the point of romance in my opinion.

    @ Alte,

    Deti covered much of what I was gonna say in response to you (thank you Deti). I would just like to add that, like I just mentioned in my response to TSK, that if a woman expands her definition of romance, then she would realize that her husband has been romancing her all along, which ought to benefit her by making her feel closer to him. If she has the highest of expectations and expects his previous efforts to be topped each time, then she will be disappointed for sure, and he will be frustrated and wonder “what’s the point?! I can’t please her no matter what I do so I may as well not do anything at all”, which is when the small gestures would stop too. Which is the impression I’m getting from the men commenting here. Lose-lose. But if she see’s romance differently and responds favorably, then it would be a win-win.

  27. deti

    @ FBNF:

    “if a woman expands her definition of romance, then she would realize that her husband has been romancing her all along”

    Couple of things. First, don’t put the cart before the horse. Nothing else matters if she’s not attracted. Romance, gestures large and small – it’s all irrelevant without attraction in today’s day and age. Second, I think it’s less about “expand[ing] her definition of romance than it is about gratitude for your husband and what he does.

  28. DJ

    Oh read more of the thread , so correct me if Im wrong. Romance =Forplay?

  29. deti

    “Romance =Forplay?”

    No.

  30. theshadowedknight

    Deti,
    Only if she is attracted to the man offering them. This is all a function of attraction, really. And the scale of the romantic gesture is irrelevant.

    No, even if she she is attracted, it is still a sign of status. A man who is too romantic will become less attractive because women read it as supplication. To men, it demonstrates love. Women see it as a sign that men are low status and assume that they can do better. Women use romance as a tactic, not a gesture.

    Alte and Deti,
    You certainly do have a low opinion of most men. Either that, or it’s lack of observation; or lack of comprehension of what you observe. I think it’s just the opposite — I think most men are quite generous in response to demonstrations of gratitude. If women would simply show some modicum of gratitude, romantic gestures grand and small would abound and proliferate.

    Why else is the most common advice to women some variation on being grateful and listening to their husbands? It works. A couple of generations of ingrates and nags, and romance has ground to a halt. Women are out there crying about romance and chivalry and where has it gone, because they stopped appreciating it, and started punishing it.

    When a woman gets close and thanks a man for something he has done, it is an incredible feeling. Men will walk through fire for that feeling. Men will fight wars for it. If they do not get it, they will sit at home, staring at the wall, lost. Men do what they do for their women.

    FBNF,
    So this “status” stuff doesn’t really apply, or even make sense to me.

    Status always applies. Always. Marriage is not a requirement from competing, it just increases the stakes, with less room for error.

    Sigyn, last time I checked, European women are still white–at least in this reality. A shame that you try to stick to your lies. It would be better if you just admitted it, and apologized.

    The Shadowed Knight

  31. Romance to me is about making her happy, pleased and amplify, in her mind as well as heart, my love for her. They are gestures of love; it’s the little things such as flowers (when she least expects them), a surprise dinner at a restaurant she always wanted to visit, those mundane errands she couldn’t run because she’s tied up and I did it for her, and so on.

    One of my dates had a huge crack on the screen of her smartphone and on one of our little trips out of the country, she wanted to have it repaired or replaced (cos it’s cheaper there). We visited one shop after another in a shopping area because she wanted to compare prices. When she finally found one shop which quoted a lower fee, I gave my number to them (so that they could call when the phone’s ready) and I knew it would incurred international call rates. I volunteered despite the fact that her friends were with us on this trip.

    Long story short, we didn’t have sex at the end of the day because I wasn’t expecting or demanding it. All I wanted was to do something for her out of love (nevermind the cost). It’s not something I’d normally do for a stranger, a colleague or an acquaintance. I’d consider a bit more for a friend.

    Putting on my “red pill” hat, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if, in her mind, she believed that this was no big deal after all.

  32. For the last time…

    Enough.

    The matter is to be dropped right now. That means no apologies, no excuses, no thing. No more references period. Just let it be. I will start deleting comments from now on.

    [Update: Everyone can continue to post, so long as they remain on topic.]

  33. I don’t generally have a low opinion of men, but I am quite observant. It’s not exactly a secret that the most grateful wives are married to the least-romantic men, and vice versa.

    Telling women that they should be more obviously grateful to get more romance is pointless. If they’re married to someone arrogant, then their shows of appreciation would just make him even more arrogant. If they’re married to someone humble, then they’re probably already being romanced to the point of fatigue.

    And telling women to notice the little things is also a waste of time. The decent ones already notice and are grateful, and the other ones notice but take all that stuff for granted.

  34. They are gestures of love

    In most of the happy marriages I’ve seen, it’s mostly the women doing those things for her husband.

  35. It’s not exactly a secret that the most grateful wives are married to the least-romantic men, and vice versa.

    You are confusing cause and effect. Romantic men earn scorn. Romantic men find it quite difficult to attract a woman until they cease their romantic efforts. They tone it down or abandon it entirely, and women become loyal. Women punish romance and reward distance. Women are the force behind this because women set the tone; if women wanted romance, they would get it.

    The Shadowed Knight

  36. DJ

    Ok so if it not emotional foreplay , what is romance as you guys define it? Since its a none forplay prelude to sex?

  37. Women in general, sure.

    But the claim was that one particular woman would get more — and more grand — gestures of romance if she displayed more gratitude. I just don’t see the incentive structure here.

    I’ve never seen this play out in real life; in marriage. I see men very rarely do something small (like wash dishes when she’s exhausted), their wives show gratitude… and that’s it. She can wait another ten weeks for a repeat. He doesn’t think, “Now I’ll rush out and buy her flowers!” Not because he doesn’t love her, but because his mind simply doesn’t work that way. If he does eventually do something grand, it will be purely on his own motivation, will seem to come right out of the blue, and have her in happy tears.

    On the other hand, some men wash dishes constantly… and bring flowers… and buy her a diamond ring… and write her a song… and etc. She responds blandly and tries not to yawn, and he rushes out to top himself.

    In the first case, there’s no way to escalate things from her side, in the second case he’s essentially romantically masturbating.

  38. Do you consider yourself a romantic?
    No.

    If you aren’t now, where you a romantic at some point in the past, before the world turned you away from romance?
    Yes

    What caused you to lose your sense of romance?
    Experience

    More specifically, the experience that women do not appreciate romantic gestures as men do. Romance feeds the womans insatiable appetite for status and attention.

    Any romantic gestures are now randomly timed, to extinguish the chance of diminising marginal returns and the formation of behavioural reinforcement loops.

    This is within a committed marriage. Outside of it, romantic gestures would have virtually nil attraction value in relationship game. Being a jerk would have a much higher return on emotional investment and maintain male frame.

    Romance simply delivers power to female relationship control via her approval of the gestures. Thats a surefire path to a sexless friend zone.

  39. theshadowedknight

    I figured out a good metaphor for romance, which will help reconcile the apparently selfish nature of masculine romantic gestures. Try to think of it as cooking. You want to eat, and that is the reason why you cook. However, if it is mere sustenance that is desired, a simple chicken breast with broccoli or some ground beef would suffice, especially if already made. Sex without romance is the frozen meal of sex. Filling, but not satisfying.

    The act of cooking itself is a pleasure, and it heightens the enjoyment of the meal. It is something that you make yourself, your efforts, to your tastes. Romancing a woman is the emotional spice that imparts so much flavor to the physical act of sex. If your woman smacks dinner onto the floor every time you cook, and will only eat frozen dinners, well… you learn to get by on bland meals.

    The Shadowed Knight

  40. Pingback: Lightning Round – 2014/08/06 | Free Northerner

  41. Robert What?

    As a late 50s married guy I’ve learned that romance is something women dream about but not something they want in real life except in very limited doses. Not that they want to be treated like crap, but it always helps if they are not quite sure how you feel about them.

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