My latest post, which examined how male attractiveness increasing with age is thwarted by the current nature of the marriage market, prompted a female reader of mine to contact me. She agreed with my assessment of the state of the MMP for men, and then offered her thoughts on how things worked for women. I thought they were excellent points, and she graciously allowed me to integrate them into a post. The first part of this post will be quotes from the two of us, mostly hers, with some of my replies. The second part will be an analysis and summary of the points raised earlier.
I.
My reader, who wishes to remain anonymous, said this:
[As a woman it] may be, or rather, it is simple enough to attract a man in your age bracket that displays good overall LAMPS simply by being young and in shape while dressing and acting in a feminine manner. But that only gets my foot in the door. Once the serious talks begin, then there is a completely different set of things that I have to consider.
I think one of the more common situations I have encountered is a man who, nearing or in his early 30s, is ready to settle down with a woman younger than himself. But similarly to situations Red Pill men encounter with various women, he has already “lived his life,” so to speak. He has had numerous “relationships,” ONS’s and everything in between with various women usually starting from high school moving forward and he may have been heavy into the party/club scene which typically means he was also probably heavy into drugs/alcohol. Add a kid or two to put the icing on the cake. Then finally at some point in his late 20s/early 30s he “grows out of that phase” and wants to settle down and take his life and faith seriously. Now keep in mind, these are men in the age bracket to which I am directed to open my search. This search can continue well into my mid to late 20s where by then, my overall [SMV] and fertility are beginning their decline.
When I remarked that she was one of the few women who seemed as cautious of a man’s history as (aware) men tend to be of a woman’s history, she added this:
It’s common Red Pill knowledge what a fast lifestyle in ones twenties can do to woman, ranging from poor overall health, an inability to bond to one man, an overall jaded worldview and the list goes on. But I view it as more of a general thing: one’s past, man or woman, effects your future for better or worse. And speaking from a strictly Christian perspective, I’d be mistaken to attempt to hitch my wagon to a man that had his share of pump and dumps before deciding to settle down in the same way a man would avoid a woman with the same history. A lot can be said for forgiveness and repentance, but a man’s past still counts. At least for me, anyway. That goes equally for sinful misconduct outside the sexual arena, as well. These things can often times be clear markers of different character or personality flaws that may show up further down the road and should I be married to such a man and these patterns or behaviors rear their ugly heads… what can I do?
I responded with these observations:
You make a great point that there are really two different searches someone is conducting. The first is to search for someone who wants to marry, and the second is to search among those who want to marry for someone worth marrying.…I suspect that the reason why the kind of men you describe are common is because those men who never engaged in the party or hook-up have “checked out.” They eschew dating in general, most likely because they were burned one too many times by women.…It seems to be a general conundrum that both men and women face: those who are willing to marry are not worthy, and those who are worthy don’t want to marry.
Those were the most relevant parts of our conversation. This brings us to part 2.
II.
In my previous post, I explained the dilemma that men faced:
The older we get, the more attractive we become to women, but at the same time, there are less marriageable women available to us.
Women face a different situation, one that on its face seems quite a bit worse: Their SMV decreases over time, and there aren’t necessarily any more marriageable men available to them over time.
Women have the advantage of starting off in a better position than men, and that is a considerable advantage, to be sure. But in the current MMP it isn’t so much of an advantage as it could/should be. Younger women who want to marry young find that men their age don’t tend to want to marry. At least, that is what I have heard from my younger female readers, including the one who inspired this post. In this sense, younger men and women are alike; both eschew marriage for the time being. This is unfortunate for young women looking to marry, because younger men tend to have less baggage (just as younger women tend to have less baggage). Those younger men who do want to marry tend to be less attractive, and often are poor choices in other ways as well.
Once you start to look at the older cohort of men you find that they are more attractive, and more eager to marry. On the flip side, they oftentimes have a lot of baggage from their wild and crazy years. While most men don’t build up the same amount of baggage that women do on the carousel, it can and will affect them nonetheless. Most of the men who don’t have baggage fall into two camps: those who chose not to accumulate baggage, and those who couldn‘t accumulate baggage. The first group is a small percentage of the population, and hard to find (at least, that is what I’ve heard from my female readers). The second group are often poor choices for marriage, because their lack of baggage is largely a result of deficiencies on their part. Also, many of them might not be interested in marriage to begin with, and the absence of baggage arose from the fact that they have left the field and no longer play the game (think MGTOW).
So all in all, for a woman looking for a good man without baggage to be her husband, the pickings look slim indeed. Much the same as it is for men. To repeat myself, those who are willing to marry are usually not worthy, and those who are worthy usually don’t want to marry. And this seems to be the case for men and women.
Thus we get the conundrum that marriage minded women face in the present age: They start out near the peak of their attractiveness, but are in a race against the clock to find marriageable men before their attractiveness fades so much they no longer interest those men.
Update: In case it wasn’t clear enough in the main post, this post is written from the perspective of some of my female readers. I don’t necessarily think that all of the observations are correct, but I assumed them to be true for the sake of argument in this post. It was either that, or call them liars. Despite that, I think the ultimate conclusion is still accurate.
Donal Graeme 
Every single word of this post is absolutely spot on! Thank you to the anonymous reader for pointing this out! Having been marriage minded since I was a kid, this is exactly the dilema I find myself in. The younger guys didn’t want to be “tied down” to one woman, and now those same guys apparently only want the younger women because the women their own age are apparently not good enough anymore, but the younger women that the older guys want don’t want them at all. If you’re marriage minded, male or female, you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. So frustrating all around.
Oh, and for the record, a lot of marriagable young women, seeing guys their age being this way, have also “checked out”. I have known quite a few to do this. I have been THIS CLOSE to doing it myself countless times. So it’s not so much that marriagable women are THAT much more rare than marriagable men, there are just far fewer that are still bothering to play the game.
This is again, not true.
As I posted over at GBG from a study:
http://girlsbeinggirls.wordpress.com/2013/08/27/how-do-young-marriage-minded-girls-meet-a-man/comment-page-1/#comment-1003
Your second conclusion is indeed correct though — the younger men who do want to marry in greater proportion to women are unnatractive to them and thus are not considered.
This map shows the map of singles:
http://jonathansoma.com/singles/
You’ll note if you bias the graph to the younger ages (20s, 30s), every single city has more younger males prevalent than their female counterparts. However, as you start to reach the 40s,50s,60s+, single females start to become more prevalent whether for divorce or other factors.
Simple fact of the matter is that there are all men 20s, 30s, and 40s competing for women in their 20s…. and men in the 30s, 40s, 50s competing for women in their 30s. So while not all of them marry the same age counterpart, it is highly likely that there will be a higher prevalent of younger single males because of this. These younger single males will all be “less attractive” since the more attractive males will be snapped up.
To follow up after my post comes out of moderation because of links:
Basically, the younger males [who are attractive] don’t want to be tied down or if they do want to marry are snatched up immediately by their similar aged cohort of women, while the younger males [who are unattractive] do want to marry but they are ignored.
Young women who want to marry should look at similar aged cohorts as well as those within a decade of them to increase the available age of suitors.
While the similar aged men who are attractive are likely still going to be snatched up early unless a woman can get her hands on one, it is likely that some of the men within a decade of them that are older are starting to come out of the fog of unattractiveness. These would be men such as Donal, myself, and many of the Christian RP men on the manosphere, as well as those men who are not RP but strong Christians who are getting established in their careers, etc.
The advice to all women who are plain janes to moderately attractive is that these women need to be looking for the “lieutenant with potential to be a general” because it is likely that the very attractive women (of which most women are not) will snatch up the generals and commanders right off.
Remember, if a wife is operating in a godly marriage she should be building her man up to be greater than he would be if he was alone. And she will reap the benefits of his increased status, money, etc.
…Do people get it yet?
We cannot be trusted to marry well on our own. It’s why arranged marriages were invented.
For the women reading this, I would direct you to a post by Ace of Spades. This one talks about the dangers of waiting. Stingray also has a great post on the benefits of marrying young, and another by TempestTcup on the dangers of not settling down.
The longer you wait, the more your position weakens, and the more you risk. Men are dropping out, and if you girls want them around, you need to Woman Up.
The Shadowed Knight
@ FBNF
I had been focused on the problems men faced, so it was good of her to clue me into the female problems. Its easy to get lost in our own problems and forget that there is a whole ‘nother side to the coin.
And I’ve seen some women express that same “check out” attitude you describe. Its discouraging to see on my end, but its understandable.
@ Deep Strength
Thanks for the link. That is what I understood before writing this, but I’ve heard female readers indicate otherwise. Which makes me suspect there is more going on behind the scenes. If I had to guess, there are several reasons for this. First, you have the Apex Fallacy. Second, and probably the biggest reason, marriageable men and women often move in completely different circles. Third, men might be interested in marriage but sue to social pressure don’t feel comfortable admitting it.
@ RPSMF
Arranged marriages were common usually only among the elite where they did exist. Some cultures are exceptions, of course. India comes to mind. But otherwise it was a family affair, in the sense that a man would negotiate with the father of a potential bride for marriage. Generally speaking, it wasn’t men who weren’t trusted to marry wisely.
@ TSK
Back when courtship still existed, a woman could count on her female relatives to remind her constantly that she wasn’t getting any younger, and her best bet to marry well was to marry sooner, rather than later. Its unfortunate for all of us that this wisdom was discarded decades ago.
@ deep strength
The problem with younger women considering men a decade older than them is that, at that age, they see too much of a “generation gap” (for lack of a better word). What I mean is: an 18 – 20 year old girl looks at a 28 – 30 year old man and thinks he’s old. I don’t mean “older”, I mean “over the hill OLD”. She doesn’t see much difference between being 30 or 40, and 40 is old enough to be her Dad, and the idea of being with someone old enough to be your Dad at that age just seems gross. She is BARELY out of childhood, and is still trying to figure out what it means to even be an adult, and the idea of being in a romantic relationship with a man who has been an adult for 10 years and is already well established in life just seems foreign to her. This is why the younger a girl is, the more the guy’s age matters. The older we get, the older we sometimes consider going. This seems to be a bigger deal these days than it was in previous generations though because kids are less mature and ready for life than they used to be.
@ donal
“Men might be interested in marriage but due to social pressure don’t feel comfortable admitting it”
Bingo. Hence the reason women believe that men don’t want to get married at all (in addition to seeing “pump and dump” behavior that is so common to younger men), causing the marriage minded ones to “check out”.
@ FBNF
I agree those are some of the deterrents. That’s why it is advice — women are free to take it or not.
But if they complain about these things, that’s another story altogether.
While I agree marrying young can help in marrying without baggage, I find that it takes longer to actually find yourself, figure out who you are and who you want to be, let alone start applying those changes.
A year or two ago I wasn’t aware of Game, and I was poorer for it. After having a little more life experience and applying Game to aspects of my life, I’m already more confident and my life is far better. In the same way, I think that people who get married early are still finding themselves and haven’t even found out who they are, so how can they commit to another person for life who may also be going through the same thing, if they turn out to be “completely different people” by the end of their thirties?
@ deep strength
Sorry, complain about what things? If you are referring to everything that Donal speaks of in his post, there is as much reason for us to complain as there is for you guys to. The MMP has been equally corrupted for us all.
Younger women who want to marry young find that men their age THEY ARE ATTRACTED TO don’t tend to want to marry…
FIFY
There is no shortage of men.
“Men might be interested in marriage but due to social pressure don’t feel comfortable admitting it”
Mens preferences are irrelevant. The feminine imperative rules all.
Men are told they are too young. Then they are too much older. Then too old. What is a guy to do?
Younger women who want to marry young find that men their age don’t tend to want to marry. At least, that is what I have heard from my younger female readers, including the one who inspired this post.
I’m sorry, but this is simply a red herring. Points:
1. Couples traditionally marry with men half the female age plus seven. 17F=20M, 20F=26M, 22F=30M. That’s what it means for women to marry somebody their proper age.
2. Men display, women choose. Men never stopped displaying. Women have stopped choosing. They have access, post-pill, to men for sex and attention far above their MMV at young ages, and foolishly believe that is their marriage level.
3. Women who cannot find a man to marry when they are young are simply shooting far above their MMV or just don’t get out much. Women control the marriage market when they are young; that’s simple reality.
There is a good reason why women don’t marry young men equal to their own age: they haven’t proved themselves. I can tell nearly at a glance a girl’s MMV, but men’s rank is far more dependent on his work. Women wisely demand results and thus don’t wish to marry a man too young.
But that’s not the issue. The problem is that women aged 16-25 (their peak SMV years) are choosing to slut it up rather than seeking a husband at the appropriate age. That’s the whole deal. And I feel zero sympathy. It’s a moral choice, and women are choosing poorly.
In this sense, younger men and women are alike; both eschew marriage for the time being….. Those younger men who do want to marry tend to be less attractive, and often are poor choices in other ways as well.
Ouch!
Most of the men who don’t have baggage fall into two camps: those who chose not to accumulate baggage, and those who couldn‘t accumulate baggage.
A bit from box A, a bit from box B.
Herein is my beef: choosing not to accumulate baggage can lead to being exclusion. Given the chance to fornicate, being obedient means women disqualify you as unworthy.
Now, i know where value is assessed, and would rather be disqualified in the eyes of a woman, than commit sin just to win her approval.
The solution is for young women and men to be mentored into marriage by people who know their strengths and weaknesses and can assess their trauevtory. But this goes nowhere is the most men are disqualified by most women, for being just average, or ‘normal.’
She is BARELY out of childhood, and is still trying to figure out what it means to even be an adult,
Having the rights of an adult means accepting responsibility and consequences. I hardly think an 18 year old is barely out of childhood. It is parents job to prepare kids for this. Why arent they doing this?
Hang on. I might go yell at some kids to gett off my lawn. Might make me feel better…
“The problem is that women aged 16-25 (their peak SMV years) are choosing to slut it up rather than seeking a husband at the appropriate age. That’s the whole deal. And I feel zero sympathy. It’s a moral choice, and women are choosing poorly.”
While studiously not accusing any readers of this blog of this—(and I do feel some sympathy for these young women, as there is an entire movement trying to slutify them. But you don’t marry someone out of sympathy), this *is* the core problem. It’s not that young men are necessarily being more righteous, but that young women are in the power position. A girl who decides to be chaste prevents a fornication; a guy who decides to be chaste reaps spiritual rewards, but some other guy will gladly replace him. Dalrock’s post We are trapped on Slut Island and Traditional Conservatives are our Gillligan explains the principle well. This is what people meant when they referred to women as “guardians of virtue.”
Sluts make things worse for virtuous men and virtuous women.
@ FBNF
Lack of marriage prospects.
If a woman wants to get married young, but is not willing to consider prospects above her in age. Which is what we were talking about.
It should also be mentioned that the MMP is not equally corrupted. Men have it much worse, and most of the drawbacks for women are their own fault. Let us take a look.
Women are doing the divorcing at a better than two to one ratio. Women keep the children and their man’s productive capacity. Women are supported and aided all throughout the divorce. Women are accepted socially once they make the decision to divorce. Women are viewed favorably by judges and the whole system of law. Women hold the power over marriage in nearly all aspects.
The fact that they are worse off after marriage is on them. The damage that is inflicted on their children is done by the women. All of the difficulties that they have to face is because they chose them.
Men? Men have to wonder if women are going to destroy their lives and families. Men have to accept all of the risk, and the reward is less and less. Men have no power except what women allow them. At most, he can be the one to initiate, which is little satisfaction. If a single investment is too risky on its own, then diversify, which can be seen among men with options.
Women neutered men, and now they complain about not having enough attractive men to go around. After making it clear that sex is about the only thing they are good for and the only reason to keep them around. Trying to trap a eunuch with sex is not a plan that will see much success. Men are not going to bind themselves to one woman when at any time she can cut the bond and walk into the sunset with his children.
Now that they are realizing that they might be left out, women come roaring in, and what do they offer to fix things? More of the same, and complaints. Plenty of men would be open to building bridges, but all the men are on one side, and the women on the other, and most of the women are throwing fire on the bridge and at the men. Men are giving up once they get burned enough. The bridge burns, and the women get angrier and start throwing more fire. Not a way to reach men; not like that.
The Shadowed Knight
**”Couples traditionally marry with men half the female age plus seven. “**
This was the proprietary “floor” for the age of a woman a man might consider for marriage. It is the outer limits of what’s socially acceptable.
**”The problem with younger women considering men a decade older than them is that, at that age, they see too much of a “generation gap” (for lack of a better word). What I mean is: an 18 – 20 year old girl looks at a 28 – 30 year old man and thinks he’s old. I don’t mean “older”, I mean “over the hill OLD”. “**
Not only the attraction issue, but the economics of marrying a man more than ten years older than you are terrible unless he is very wealthy. He may well lose his health and die while you are still in midlife, but you will probably not be valuable enough to get another husband. If you are widowed at 52 with some children still living in the home, you will need some way of caring for yourself, as you could easily live another 40 years as a widow, not to mention the fact that you will have no companion. People do it, but I don’t think it’s the best idea. You are right FBNF, the MM is screwed up for both parties. I pray for all of you!
Amanda, This was the proprietary “floor” for the age of a woman a man might consider for marriage. It is the outer limits of what’s socially acceptable.
You are correct. What I was trying to say is that women have this range to choose a mate from, so if a woman is only looking at “her age” she will have harder sledding. My bad, I should have been clearer.
He may well lose his health and die while you are still in midlife, but you will probably not be valuable enough to get another husband
So, the husbands only value is utilitarian, ensuring SHE is cared for.
Donal,
…for a woman looking for a good man without baggage THAT SHE IS SUFFICIENTLY ATTRACTED TO to be her husband….the pickings look slim indeed WHEN NORMAL MEN ARE INVISIBLE
FIFY
Deep,
A guy ten years older may not put up with half the antics that younger guys pretend is not important.
Evangelical church girls often complained about the lack of good men. Then got pregnant out of wedlock to harley rockbanddrummer.
They called it missionary dating…
@ Harkness
The whole concept of “finding yourself” is rubbish, plain and simple. It is an excuse for the fact that parents aren’t raising their children to be responsible adults any more. People would know who they were if our culture didn’t prolong adolescence like it does.
@ Everyone else
I guess I wasn’t clear in the main post, but I was writing this from the perspective of some of my female readers, not from my own. I have been aware of the stats that DS has linked to for quite a while. What I said above is mostly a compilation of what I have heard from them for a while (with a special focus on the last few days).
In the same way, I think that people who get married early are still finding themselves
The divorce rate suggests otherwise.
‘Finding yourself’ is humanist doublespeak for making emotional fulfilment the lifelong priority.
**”So, the husbands only value is utilitarian, ensuring SHE is cared for.”**
Of course that’s not his only value, but it is a consideration, don’t you think? Shouldn’t a man consider, if he is taking on a wife who is much younger to fulfill a biblical role as submissive worker at home, possibly homeschooling the children, how he may see that she’s cared for in the event of his death, which could be considerably before hers? Because she’s been working at home, she wouldn’t likely have the means to support herself. So what do you propose, if that shouldn’t be a consideration?
Donal, we get that. The women still need to have their illusions and fantasies peeled back to see the reality of it all. If we will not raise our objections, to whom will it fall? They would be reassured and coddled; no one else will shatter their delusions.
The most durable and threatening of their illusions is that the good men are all gone. Part of this is the false conflation of good and evil with nice and mean. Part of it is not looking into the shadows at the men they might have missed. Part of it is trying to find a man of high social status when men are on the bottom of the social order. Altogether, it is harming their attempts.
Men hear, “Where have the good men gone,” day after day while their celibacy chafes because they have become the nice man that women told them was the good man. Each time it grates that much more, until it gets to him and he breaks. What gets put back together is not what was. Amusingly–at least in its own grim manner–he very often then becomes the man for whom women feel desire. Which either is used to satisfy his newly found rakish desires, or leaves him unmoved, as he no longer cares.
I know women do not like to hear men complain, so do not think of this as a rant or a whine, girls. Think of it as a warning, or even perhaps a threat, if that helps. If you go around breaking men, then you are going to deserve the monsters you create. If you make a man of him, you will go far. If you keep breaking men, there will not be enough to go around, and you will have to go without. Without children. Without husbands. Without families.
How many of you girls are willing–or even capable–of ninety years of grinding solitary misery and loneliness? I can do it. So can a great many others. Want to try us? Go for it, and see what happens. If you doubt me, ask yourself this: “Do I want to risk being a spinster enough to do this? To ignore him?”
By the way, it is graded.
The Shadowed Knight
@ TSK
I don’t have a problem with you shattering illusions. I just wanted to make it clear that I haven’t upchucked the Red Pill lately.
Amanda, which is worse, four decades of widowhood or nine decades of spinsterhood? Who is going to care more, the state or the adult children she raised and taught?
If women are going to refuse their age peers and older men, that is not a lot of options left. Waiting for a better husband when you have the pick of good husbands because you want a great husband is not wise. It is a dangerous plan, especially when the risk is so great and the choices so few.
Women, have you noticed that your elder sisters are complaining about the lack of men? That they are bemoaning their inability to find a husband? The trend is that it is harder and harder each year. Are you willing to take that risk in a decade? Mothers, are you willing to risk your daughters and the possibility of grandchildren on that? Good enough is better than nothing.
The Shadowed Knight
Donal, good to know. Do not worry, I will be here to tel you to quit being a buttpussy and sack up if I think you are slipping. Got to be looking out.
The Shadowed Knight
TSK, I would expect nothing less.
Amanda’s arguments against marriage of men older than the women boil down to fear. I don’t buy the “what if” scenarios.
It’s the same “what if” of a Christian wife who does not want to submit to her Christian husband, which have already been covered extensively at SSM’s.
This is not the frame you should be operating in as a single man or woman, and it is not the frame you should be operating in as a married husband or wife.
There is no such thing as chance. Only God’s plan. If God decides to take a husband or wife at a given time then so be it. Widows tend to be well supported by the community and her family, even aside from the widow inheriting all of the husband’s life insurance, 401ks, IRAs, home, etc.
**”Amanda’s arguments against marriage of men older than the women boil down to fear. I don’t buy the “what if” scenarios.”**
Fear? Or wisdom? I’m not against women marrying men older than they are, just throwing out some considerations if the man happens to be “much” older, and these are viable considerations. Your argument works best if you think God has one special person out there for you. But if you believe you have a choice in the matter, then practical issues like age have merit. And it’s not operating in fear to be practical.
@ Amanda
I don’t believe in soul mates. The one you choose to marry — whom God knows, if at all — you will cleave to and be one flesh with in this life.
My argument works best if you know that God is sovereign which He is. The same one that says in Matthew:
Here’s my main point.
Whether God takes a husband or wife in 1 year from now, or 10 years from now, or 50 years from now really doesn’t matter that much. It will be in His time.
Of course, it is a good thing to be prudent and plan for things ahead of time. That’s why I save tens of thousands into my 401(k)s and IRAs now in the event that I eventually may marry and potentially die before my future wife, and I’m sure I will be taking out a big life insurance policy once I get married
Any level headed Christian man would do the same thing to provide for his family, even in the event of an “untimely” death. There is also a massive amount of community and family support that I alluded to as well. Likely that the children will have grown up and be able to help out, and I plan to have 4-5+ children.
This is not something that should be worried about in any significant capacity when considering marriage. Anything else is fear mongering.
she wouldn’t likely have the means to support herself. So what do you propose, if that shouldn’t be a consideration?
You are reframing what was said and only hearing what you choose to. Fear has replaced faith. Deep suggests practical preps. But there are clearly issues here that need addressing. Did your father die young? Were you abandoned?
your argument works best if you think God has one special person out there for you.
Reframe attempts won’t help. This is irrelevant. An age gap where the husband is ten years or more older is quite workable, provided the woman respects him and accedes his life experience to hers. Which she usually will not, and that ruins everything.
There is also a massive amount of community and family support that I alluded to as well. Likely that the children will have grown up and be able to help out, and I plan to have 4-5+ children.
Older widows were specifically addressed in the nt. Younger widows were to remarry, as my sister in law did.
Plus, if they raised the children right, there should be plenty of grandchildren to fuss over.
But if you believe you have a choice in the matter, then practical issues like age have merit. And it’s not operating in fear to be practical.
If a man focussed exclusively on practical issues and assessed risk, he would not marry at all, as tsk points out.
Practical? Absolutely. But hardly satisfying as a mass prescription.
Arranged marriages are practical. But they are unlikely to become common.
“I don’t have a problem with you shattering illusions. I just wanted to make it clear that I haven’t upchucked the Red Pill lately.”
I’ve noticed a pattern that crops up when an RP-aware blog makes a post in this direction—a direction I would describe as “What about the plight of women in the current SMP/MMP?” Haley had a similar event.
Commenters buzz out to say that the proper question is “What can women do to fix the current SMP/MMP?” since they were the original cause of it. This is true, but doesn’t address the very real difficulties young women might face. I talk about wanting to get married, but passed up two girls who were interested in me because they weren’t pretty enough. I can certainly sympathize with a young woman thinking, “the only guys I know who want to get married are…really lame. So that’s it? Blockhead Beta or Older Otis?”
I’ve written before that taking the Red Pill sucks. I don’t mean it’s wrong or untrue, just that it’s very unpleasant. It puts you out of step with society, makes you realize that your chances of marrying well are lower than you’d like to think, and tells you that you have a whole lot of work to do.
There is a Red Pill for women as well, I think, and most women haven’t taken it. I’m loathe to judge them for it because I hadn’t really formalized it until just now, but here is how I would describe it:
1) I’m attracted to a minority of men, and there are a lot of girls attracted to those same men.
2) The years of education required before careers really get going means that when I am at my SMV peak, my male peers are not attractive to me. This, plus my empowerment, means I have a much smaller pool from which to choose when I hold the cards, and by the time my peers are more attractive, I am less attractive.
3 Societal orthodoxy actively works against my chances of marrying well, in a million little ways. Increasing those chances will mean doing things my friends don’t do, and refraining from things they do do.
4 The more clued-in the man, the less likely he is to ride to my rescue on any of these points.
This is a depressing list, which tells me that it is probably accurate.
I mean, this sucks, right? I don’t enjoy the idea of sitting my little sister down and hitting her with this list.
So here’s what I think: because the Manosphere is…mostly men, we have not thought a lot about the plight of women. Like DG, I do not mean we need to drop everything and rush to their aid. I mean just what I said: we haven’t thought about it as much. I took a series of gateway drugs, going all the way back to PUA stuff back in 2007. What is there for women, The Rules?
So I think most women commenters have understood, but not accepted, how dire their situation is. I’m not trying to fear-monger or anything, but I think the answer to “Wow, it’s really hard for women in this SMP!” is “Well, duh. Nice of you to join us.”
@ SPDI
There have actually been a lot of girl game posts on the manosphere recently.
Most of them include things in two categories namely:
1. Work on your physical appearance — nutrition, exercise, make up, hair, dress feminine, etc.
2. Work on your personality — cultivate positivity, smiling, nurturing, encouragement, being nice, gratitude, etc. and eliminating entitlement, and eliminate feminist attitudes such as competitive I-need-to-compete-with-a-man or ball-bust-him-to-get-him-to-like-me syndrome… thank you feminism for tha
3. And obviously for the Christians take off the old and put on the new as #1 priority. All of #2 falls into the fruits of the Spirit — love/agapao, joy [of the Lord], peace/Shalom/eirene, patience/endurance/longsuffering, kindness, goodness/uprightness, faithfulness, gentleness/meekness/humility, and self control.
#1 gets women in the door with men, and #2 makes him want to keep her.
Dropit:
“I’ve noticed a pattern that crops up when an RP-aware blog makes a post in this direction—a direction I would describe as “What about the plight of women in the current SMP/MMP?” Haley had a similar event.”
Not really similar or the same. The question Haley asked was “Do people even want to date anymore” or something similar. “People” includes “men”, so a lot of men – including yours truly – showed up to answer her question and give her reasons why men might not want to date anymore. Haley stamped her little feet and said “You guys are just a bunch of whiners and complainers!” much as Sigyn is doing now at her place.
Proving, once again, that women in the main really just cannot handle seeing or hearing men talk about what they don’t like in the SMP/MMP.
“So all in all, for a woman looking for a good man without baggage to be her husband, the pickings look slim indeed. Much the same as it is for men. To repeat myself, those who are willing to marry are usually not worthy, and those who are worthy usually don’t want to marry. And this seems to be the case for men and women.”
Let me make the following observations:
1. Dropit has explained the problems facing women exceedingly well. She’s only attracted to a minority of men; the same ones all the other girls like. But something I think girls need to realize is that with a large portion of those attractive men, their “attractive” qualities are what makes them poor marriage fits: badboy tendencies; easily can attract girls for sex; they don’t want to tie themselves down to one woman, they are unkind and irresponsible, etc.
2. In the first section you’re talking about a man in his early 30s ready to settle down and who might have “sown his wild oats”. I think when you get down to it, almost all women, even Christian women, are much, much less concerned about his prior party lifestyle than most men are and should be about a woman’s prior party lifestyle. We all know the reasons why. I think that for most women, his baggage isn’t an issue; and to the extent it is for Donal’s female readers, those women are outliers. IME, most women just do not care about a guy’s N all that much, unless his N = 0, in which case she judges him as a loser.
3. The grousing about considering a man who might be up to 10 years older is really not about his having sown wild oats; or about the potential for his early death and leaving her a young widow. Those are smokescreens for what’s really going on here. The real female concerns with considering older men are (1) the man’s attractiveness and whether he will keep it as he ages; and (2) what it says about the women’s own SMVs and MMVs – that they are not attractive enough to keep and hold the interest of the most attractive men within three or four years of their peer age group.
That, I think, is really the complaint here. These women are discovering that what men have been saying really is true – they are attractive enough for ONSs and STRs, but not for the long haul. The attractive men are making the hard cold judgment that most women are not worth long term investment.
Haley stamped her little feet and said “You guys are just a bunch of whiners and complainers!” much as Sigyn is doing now at her place.
I thought I felt my ears itching.
If you have an objection to something I wrote at the Domain, you are welcome to come and chat with me about it. I’ll not get into it here because it would be derailing Donal’s comment thread–which I believe has already been derailed enough by other “interests”.
And, another of the major complaints here with the Donal’s Christian female readers, is the interplay between their Christianity and the larger marriage marketplace. Assuming these are marriage minded Christian women, the secular values of the SMP and MMP have infected Christians’ interaction with it to such an extent that sexual conduct prior to marriage is almost de rigueur.
Most of the men Christian women are attracted to are universally attractive. These men have options and they will not wait for marriage, not even to a stunningly beautiful Christian woman.
Most of these Christian women really do have standards. They are not going to put out for a man just to “get” him. But, the men they can “get” without sex are not nearly as attractive, and these women know this. So, they have to put out for the CHANCE at an attractive man; and if they don’t, their choices are limited to unattractive men.
The solution?
1. Raise men’s status in general above that of women. (This will not happen in our lifetimes or our children’s lifetimes.)
2. If this is not done in a systemic way, then women should do so on their own, and lower their own status before men in general.
3. Women MUST learn to lower their standards as well as their sights, to bring more men into their fields of vision.
4. More men should do what they can to improve themselves. Those men can start by withdrawing money, time and resources from every woman who expresses insufficient interest in them. Don’t spend a single minute or cent on any woman who is not interested in them romantically or sexually.
@ SPDI,
Thank you for getting it! 🙂
Sigyn:
I have no objection to, nor do I much care about, anything you wrote at your blog. I simply noted it and commented about it here, because you linked to it here. It was relevant to Dropit’s point which is why I referenced it.
I’ll say it again because it keeps being demonstrated on this thread and everywhere in the ‘sphere: most women really just cannot handle seeing or hearing men talk about what they don’t like in the SMP/MMP.
Deti, dear, obviously you care about what I wrote because you not only went to my blog to look at what I wrote, but you alleged I was “stamping my feet” and calling you all “whiners and complainers”. (Which, actually, isn’t what I said nor is my attitude, but you’ve done this to me before so I’m not surprised.)
From what I can see, it didn’t have much to do with Dropit’s comment except tangentially, as it pertains to my reaction to other people’s reactions to still other people’s statements (which can include the topic that both Dropit and Donal addressed).
But I’m glad you think of me so often and stop by from time to time, and care to direct traffic to our humble blog. Now, let’s not start another one of our little spats right in the middle of Donal’s blog.