Second Thoughts

I have a new post ready to go, but I’m hesitating about posting it. Here is how I described it in my preview post:

After having talked privately with a number of people, I want to address the subject of the “1-10 scale” again. Specifically, what I want to cover is just how subjective it really is. We know every man has his own set of criteria on what he likes, but I’m curious just how far it extends. So what I’m planning on doing is posting a number of videos of some female ASMR artists (a mix of some I like and others who I think would provide a good variety of physical features). Then, underneath each video I will have a poll to give readers a chance to rate the attractiveness of the woman. I’m very much curious to see just how much of a “spread” there is.

My interest in the post is mostly to see how much of a distribution there is to male evaluations of female attractiveness. Now, in the past I would have considered only my own thoughts on the subject and would have just carried on with posting it. However, I have been somewhat more… self-aware as of late, and so I realize that there might be other factors to consider. Principally that my post calls for men to rate a woman on the 1-10 scale, with the results being visible to everyone. There is always a chance that one of these women could find their way here and see the results. Since women are naturally quite concerned about their physical appearance, this could be potentially embarrassing, insulting or distressing for them.

I would appreciate it if my readers provided some input on the matter. At the moment I am still inclined to publish the post, but I am open to changing my mind.

Update: Thanks to TSK for suggesting I check out Heartiste’s site for a previous example of this kind of test in action. I’ve integrated it into my post. Right now I think I am going to post it sometime tonight, but as a private post first. I will give interested readers/commenters whom I am familiar with a chance to look it over and give their thoughts on whether it should be opened to the public or not.

Update 2: I have decided not to post the poll/study for now.  I will publish the rest of the post, and will save what I worked on in another post, but will hold onto it for now. While I couldn’t think of any clearly immoral reason to go ahead with it, I also couldn’t think of any clear moral reason to support it either.  I was reminded of an old post by CaseyAnn recently, titled The Lie of “Amorality” (non-Catholics can simply replace Catholic with Christian for the same general effect) wherein I read this:

From this we can see that there is, in fact, a moral dimension to everything. Everything follows, in one way or another, an implicit moral code that either favors order, natural law, and the love of God – or encourages disorder, perversion, and disregard for God.

Since I couldn’t discern how such a poll favored “order, natural law, and the love of God”, I concluded I should not proceed. If I ever do come upon a good reason, then I will go ahead, but not until such a day.

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37 Comments

Filed under Attraction, Red Pill, Women

37 responses to “Second Thoughts

  1. theshadowedknight

    Heartiste already did a post on this. You are given a list of ten women, rate them 1-10. There was almost perfect agreement, if I remember correctly. Look it up.

    As far as getting pictures, go to a rating site where women put up their photos and pick from amongst the submissions there. No hard feelings; they put them out there. This holds true for the rest of the internet, as well. Once it gets uploaded, fair game. Besides, a sharp poke of reality is not going to kill them. Are you seriously concerned with hurting the feelings of some anonymous woman somewhere, or are you looking to avoid getting forneyed?

    The Shadowed Knight

  2. A Northern Observer

    Which women do you propose rating? If it’s a public figure (Rosanne Barr, Christy Brinkley), then that should be fine as they’re putting themselves out there for public “consumption” as it were.

    If you’re considering discussing not-public-figures, I’d advise against it – such people aren’t equipped for that kind of commentary, and the potential fallout that may result from a google search.

  3. @ TSK

    I shouldn’t be surprised that Heartiste did something like that. I will try and look it up. It would eliminate any need for me to do so on my own.

    And my concern was a mix of drawing ire and possibly hurting someone who I wasn’t sure deserved it.

    @ ANO

    Nope, no public figures. Which was a major reason for my hesitation. Mind you, they placed themselves out there for the public to view them, but still.

  4. theshadowedknight

    No, but it was in that style. A set of ten pictures, and you had to give them all a different score. One “one,” one “two,” etc. The overlap was amazing. I will look for it later if you cannot find it.

    The Shadowed Knight

  5. @ TSK

    I think that he took it down. I found a post referencing it from the day before, with the results averaged, but the post it linked back to is gone.

  6. Even if you find the old CH post, I hope you’ll publish yours. I don’t know about men, but I think women mostly think – and probably hope – that they even register on a man’s attractiveness scale, it’s certainly not offensive. Helpful, usually.

    There are two things I learned from Roissy’s assessment scale, one being a woman should never attempt to rate herself. It’s futile and almost always inaccurate. Because two (broken record alert), a man simply likes what he likes. I totally agree and appreciate objective standards for beauty, and there are recurring themes (long hair, don’t be fat, etc) but it’s kind of a “more than a sum of her parts” thing, isn’t it, when you add the alchemy of attraction goggles and love goggles? I’d be interested in learning from a more Biblically driven gallery on the subject.

  7. @ Velvet

    t’s kind of a “more than a sum of her parts” thing, isn’t it, when you add the alchemy of attraction goggles and love goggles? I’d be interested in learning from a more Biblically driven gallery on the subject.

    I’m not sure about “attraction goggles”, but I do think there is such a thing as “love goggles” or “wife goggles.” They are God’s gift to women, really. Women (most of them, anyways, as I know there some female readers on this blog who don’t fit the profile) don’t seem to understand how helpful it is to them to marry a man when they are younger. When he is able to enjoy your youth and beauty, that impression sinks into his mind deep. Part of him will always see his wife as the youthful woman he married.

  8. theshadowedknight

    Velvet, for all the complaining about men only looking for beauty, I think that the average woman is a six and a half to seven, barring weight issues. I have to look at women coming through my gate all the time, and the biggest issue with them is weight. There are always a few who are unattractive, but the fatties constitute the vast majority of the truly unattractive.

    Donal, that is a shame. Still, the one you found can prove your point, just as well. If you decide to make a new poll, I would love to take a crack at it. Are you planning on a spread of all levels of attractiveness and rating them against each other, or a selection of the attractive and preference ratings for hair and eye color, body type, face structure?

    The Shadowed Knight

  9. @ TSK

    For this one I am not going for a spread of attractiveness, but rather “selection of the attractive and preference ratings for hair and eye color, body type, face structure” as you put it. Although if I do a follow up I will probably examine more women towards the middle.

  10. I have updated the post with my current plans.

  11. ballista74

    I will say, pray much on this as to what is right. I don’t know where your heart is, but one of the convictions of sin I’ve had in the past is doing this kind of thing with women (pre-Christ). I was respectful enough to just evaluate women that offered pictures and asked me whether I thought they were “attractive”, “hot”, or whatever the word they used was (and how they were) and not dive into the “is she?” question but it’s still a literal lust fest (remember Roissy is a PUA that’s just out for one thing), something I had to confess and repent of and not really conducive to anything “Biblically driven”. You’ll get either offense, attention whorism, or hurt feelings potentially. Unfortunately for these ASMR “artists”, they already see a lot of garbage in their comment boxes of this nature. Really nothing good will come out of it.

    We’re supposed to be “new men” in Christ who are better than this. If you are hesitating in doing this, there is likely very good reason. Think and pray on that much.

  12. Considering that the whole point is to rate their attractiveness, I don’t see why you would be concerned. Yes, some people can’t take criticism; even if someone only listed them as a 5. As long as you take the photos from a hot or not site, or various model shoots without restrictions on the use of their pictures you’ll be fine.

  13. theshadowedknight

    Donal, if you are judging the physical attractiveness of these women and trying to find the spread, videos are not a good medium. You risk other factors being included, like attitude, voice, and posture. That will throw off your ratings. Pictures would be best, the kind you would get from a ratings site.

    I think I have just had an epiphany. The reason why women are so concerned with looks and dislike being average, even if average is beautiful: projection. An average man is by definition unattractive, because women rate them subjectively. An attractive woman is attractive even if she is average, because men rate them objectively. Women cannot stand to be average, because they assume that it means unattractive. That is why they keep getting wound up and stressed out. They infer their unattractiveness from their own valuations. Which would be why this subject receives so much resistance from the women around here. I am amused.

    The Shadowed Knight

  14. ballista74

    Donal, if you are judging the physical attractiveness of these women and trying to find the spread, videos are not a good medium. You risk other factors being included, like attitude, voice, and posture.

    +1 if you’re just looking at physical attractiveness, but there are other qualities of a woman that can make her super-attractive, like attitude, voice, and posture. It depends on where you want to go with such a survey (if there was really a God-honoring way to do it), but I’ll say there’s examples I see in videos and in person of more average looking women that become exceptional due to factors beyond their looks.

    Women cannot stand to be average, because they assume that it means unattractive. That is why they keep getting wound up and stressed out. They infer their unattractiveness from their own valuations.

    They do get wound up much more than they really need to. Most really need to work on 1 Peter 3 beauty more than the flesh.

  15. I’ll admit, I’m curious to see the results, but I guess I’ll have to wait if it ever becomes public.

  16. @TheShawdowedKnight: You’re exactly right, but I’ve found peace by accepting that I’m average. Besides, most people are average anyways 🙂

  17. A Northern Observer

    Personally, the notion of numeric ratings rather specious and superficial – unless you’re a PUA who’se looking for a pump ‘n’ dump. I’ve known attractive and less-attractive women who would rate rather widely on a numeric scale of physical attractiveness, and then I’d get to know my judgement of attraction changed to match more of who they were on the inside as opposed to their just external appearance.

  18. A Northern Observer

    arg – I think faster than I write…here’s what I meant…

    . Personally, I find the notion…

  19. Ton

    Girl you need to redefine you being average….. upward

  20. theshadowedknight

    Ballista and Northern Observer, the purpose of the survey/poll is to determine the range of purely physical attractiveness. In order to do this, controls must be placed to ensure that the integrity of the results is not compromised. That is the concern at hand.

    I am aware of the way that a superficially attractive woman can be so repulsive in attitude that any desire for her is lost. I have experienced it myself a few times. I have also seen the converse, where a woman to whom I was indifferent became attractive. I am not making a value judgement, I am trying to ensure the accuracy of the reporting and the results, for the purpose to which they are intended.

    LeBlanc, while I myself do not generally find myself attracted to black women, and I am unattracted to you, you are not unattractive. You may be “average,” but do not take that to mean that you are not pretty. This, I think, you already know. Do not let it go to your head, because then it will break the things that work to keep men around.

    The Shadowed Knight

  21. theshadowedknight

    I took too long to write all that, and Ton managed to say it better, with less. Essentially, that. But do not be falsely modest and go looking for compliments.

    The Shadowed Knight

  22. A Northern Observer

    DG: I’m aware of the nature of the test, and I’ll admit to some curiosity as to the results. I only expressed my opinion on the utility of numeric ratings in general and in the long run.

    All the best on your experiment!

  23. @TheShawdowedKnight: I don’t believe in being falsely modest and I don’t see what is wrong with being average. Average isn’t bad. I hope my comment earlier did not make seem as if I was saying average as a bad thing or fishing for compliments. Neither was my intention.

  24. Donal,
    Are you interested in a guest column? A film review, for something different.
    Email me if so.

  25. Basically, I don’t view myself as “the hottest woman to walk the earth,”, but I’m not looking in the mirror and complaining about things that really don’t matter. I like the link that Ballista74 posted and I think that women have an inflated view of their beauty.

  26. Leblanc,

    I’m sure you know this already, but the blush of youth can distract from a multitude of, shall we say, lesser preferred attributes. If only todays carousel riders could understand that.

    Long hair and a pleasant demeanour can also take you a long way.

    Best,

  27. Observer, check your e-mail.

  28. Lovely, “average” for women does not necessarily mean unattractive. Average merely means you are in the center of whatever curve exists. I created a graphic before which shows what I think it looks like:

    As you can see, “average is somewhere near 6 to 7, which is in the attractive range.

  29. I agree. Average is middle ground. It is not bad. I don’t know why everybody is taking “average” as negative when I said it. I’m sorry if I was not clear enough earlier.

  30. I think the reason why is because in many instances “average” is bad. Especially for men. We live in an age where everyone is special, everyone is “super.” If you are merely average, then are loser. This makes no sense, but we live in senseless times.

  31. And I think that is laughable because most people are average and not just in looks, but ability also. Why can’t we accept that?
    I’m not saying that is an excuse to be a bum or for a woman to put not effort in her looks, but it will only hurt her if she thinks she is some special,pretty, snowflake.

  32. After some further thought and prayer, I’ve decided to hold off on the study for now. See the update above for more.

  33. Donal, replied to your mail.

    ‘Average’ is usually paired with ‘just.’ Humanism teaches that all people are special, all are unique, and that we all have gifts waiting to be uncovered. A twist on the truth.

    Being ‘average’ is painted as undesirable. Unwarranted encouragement to children at an early age teaches them to feel special before actually achieving anything.

  34. theshadowedknight

    Donal, you are correct. Average is the death knell for men. Average is the bell tolling his genetic death. Women do not want the average man. They want the alpha.

    Women should not be described as average. They are pretty, beautiful, homely, ugly, which are objective qualities. Average does not apply to any specific woman, because it is a subjective ranking.

    The Shadowed Knight

  35. @an observer: A consequence of living in an individualistic society. If you look at some recent studies, job performance is going down. It is because of exactly what you mentioned; people are sugar coating and raising kids to believe that they are special just because of “who they are”. By accepting that ideology (which most women do), it supports the notion that a person doesn’t need to work on improving one’s self.
    This is why you see articles like, “Where have all the good men gone?”, but would’t dare see an article saying “Where have all the good women gone?”
    Because most women as a whole have accepted the notion that they are all special creatures (AKA “princess entitlement”) and deserve only the best. This is why we have women creating a list of criteria for men, but at the bottom of that list it is, “He can accept me for who I am.”.

  36. I personally think the decision of whether you should post it or not depends on your reasons for doing so. If you’re planning on pushing mating based on men and women near to each other in ranking; I think there’s a good deal to be said for posting it. Doing so gives us a chance for a healthy, safe place in which to compare physical preferences as Christians so that we may examine our ideas and preferences; and discuss them in good company. I was never a fan of the Roissy posts because of the company that is kept there, though I did find the results interesting and illuminating – my taste in women is different than most of his readers.

    However, if the post and any follow ups you’re planning on doing focus on any other topic…. Well, I can’t think of a reason that would be morally sound. Attraction to the opposite sex should be something that encourages stability within the family; anything else is the result of unhealthy social and/or personal situations that should be dealt with.

    So, examine your conscience as well as what you plan to do with the results from the post. Then go from there.

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