Quick Thoughts and Updates

I hope to finish the second part of my latest series tonight. Its working title is “The Righteous Alpha.” [vR’s name, not mine]*

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A discussion/debate in the comments of this post at Sunshine Mary’s blog got me thinking about how my parents raised me and my past interactions with women. After having dredged over what I can remember of my adult life, I now realize several things. The first is that I was receiving more female attention in the past than I realized. A lot more. Unfortunately, I didn’t recognize the IOIs for what they were back then. The second thing is that I believe I might have been accidentally playing a form of “Aloof Game” back then, which helped somewhat with the attraction. Of course, the more I directed my attentions at a woman, the less effective this became as my “White Knight Beta” personality had a chance to manifest itself. Lastly, I really, really didn’t understand women back then. I mean, wow. I missed so many signs, so many obvious IOIs. Part of me wishes that I hadn’t been so blind. But another part of me is glad for it, as I worry that I didn’t have the self-discipline and control then that I do now.

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After reading through the last few posts over at Sunshine Mary’s blog concerning sex and commitment, I found myself thinking over the way that women approach marriage and its intersection with sexual intercourse. I spent some time pondering if it was a natural female tendency to try and use sex as a bargaining chip to secure commitment. On the one hand, this makes some sense to me and seems to be a common occurence, but on the other hand I know women (or have heard of them) for whom this inclination was not present. Women who didn’t/don’t treat sex flippantly as a bargaining chip, and some of these women aren’t/weren’t Christians. While I couldn’t reconcile this, I did come to an epiphany concerning the kind of woman I am looking for:

I don’t want a woman who will have sex with me so that she can marry me.

I want a woman who will marry me so that she can have sex with me.

This idea isn’t entirely mine, I have heard some similar thoughts before. Mostly from Christians who married while still chaste, and married in part because it meant they could (finally) have sex.

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I might update this post in the next few hours in case I’ve forgotten something.

*Update: Not going to be able to finish that post today, probably not until Thursday in fact.

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41 Comments

Filed under Attraction, Blue Pill, Men, Red Pill, Sex, Women

41 responses to “Quick Thoughts and Updates

  1. Tell me about it because the more I think about it as blue pill as I was…I had their attention and I was REALLY clueless about women back in the day. It did probably helped me in the long run.

    I mean there was several times in college women invited me into their rooms and I had ladies lay in bed next to me. I suppose having God’s rules in place protected me even though I didn’t know the underlying social dynamics. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. I agree that I would rather have a woman suggest marriage to get sex…than the other ways she tries to suggest sex.

    I’ll put it this way…anytime a woman makes a suggestion to get you alone in a private place…something is going down in her head. Knowing this is all I need to know.

  2. deti

    I don’t want a woman who will have sex with me so that she can marry me.

    I want a woman who will marry me so that she can have sex with me.

    Good advice.

  3. OK, I completely agree that you should marry a woman who desires you, but how are you supposed to know that she desires you if she doesn’t indicate that she, you know, wants to actually have sex with you? Eventually you need some sort of confirmation that she wants you pretty badly, right? This is where I just can’t figure out how it’s supposed to work exactly.

  4. deti

    Maeve:

    Kissing is a really good indicator of how attracted she is sexually.

  5. @ Maeve

    I think that Deti’s response is one good indicator. Attraction is noticeable, if you know what to look for.

    Question, if I was to add your blog to my blogroll, under which category would you prefer me to locate it?

  6. @ Deti

    For some reason I got to thinking of “Shoop, Shoop”…

  7. Maeve:
    Ironically, a woman giving you commitment when you have given her none (or none recently) is a good sign that she desires you sexually. Projection at it’s best.

    Thus why it is crucial that a man allows some times for absence. Get her hamster going, and allow her to invest in the man. Let her start to think she can make him hers, and that the investments are necessary to do so. If the man is doing things right, those thoughts are likely true.

  8. deti

    I came up with a list of “desire tells”. I’ll put it here (cleaned up, PG version)

    Here are some good ways to tell if the “desire” is there:

    1. The woman readily agrees to his suggestions, requests and plans. She makes plans to see him on conditions, places, times and dates he suggests, without flaking and without stating the primacy of other plans/persons/events. She reschedules other events to see him and be with him or immediately suggests other dates/times when she is available. In other words, she finds a way to see and be with the man she desires.

    2. She exhibits a set of physiological responses that cannot be easily faked or concealed.

    a. Pupils dilated, eyes narrowed, lips slightly parted, licks lips (the so-called “bedroom eyes” look).

    b. Hand or fingertips lightly brushing her décolletage.

    c. Slightly accelerated respiration (“heaving chest”, which will be sometimes obvious; sometimes barely perceptible.) Gasps slightly when touched.

    d. Body language changes. Slightly thrusts out chest, sits or stands bolt upright with good posture. Uncrosses arms and legs; opens up her body towards you.

    e. Extremely sensitive to kino or being touched; gasps or smiles when touched; turns to square shoulders to face you and open her body when you touch her.

    f. Giggles or stumbles over words for no apparent reason. Giddy.

    Chances are there isn’t too much desire there if:
    a. She flakes; or she declines dates; or seems too busy or occupied or overscheduled. (It’s been my experience that no woman is EVER too busy to see a man she desires sexually.)

    b. Makes you wait for everything: dates and physical contact. Doesn’t return calls or texts same day.

    c. She doesn’t want to kiss you and seems just not all that into kissing you. Resists touching, pulls away from kino.

    d. Body language: closed off, defensive.

  9. deti

    Here’s a photo of Kristen Stewart exhibiting the “bedroom eyes” look:

    http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2012/07/kristen_stewart_apologizes_rob.html

  10. I don’t know. It all sounds good, but I think maybe too easy to fake – girls DO practice this stuff, you know (I was one a really long time ago and I assure you we all were anxious to learn how to “show” we were interested in boys – slumber parties were rife with that kind of thing, especially if there was an older sister happy to pass on what knowledge she had – you know the slumber party scene in Grease – like that only a whole lot more!)

    Donal, I’m not sure where my sandbox fits. I was thinking just the other day that it doesn’t seem to have much rhyme or reason 🙂 but I’m glad you visit.

  11. Maeve, I wasn’t sure where it fits either, which is why I asked. I may have to create another category for “Homemaking” or the like. Unless you have a better name for it?

    Yeah, I’m sure that they can practice it. Which means I will need to maintain frame and break hers. Throw her off, and see how she responds when she is flustered.

  12. A Northern Observer

    Had I been more “red-pill’ back in my University days, I’m not sure if I’d ended up happily partnered, or gotten in a whole peck of trouble.

    I do like this one: “I want a woman who will marry me so that she can have sex with me.” (I’d add “among other things.” 🙂

  13. jack

    Not to be negative or sarcastic, but I am not sure women “ever” want to get married to have sex. I think that the core biological motivation for marriage is children for women and sex for men.

    That is not to say that a woman might not LIKE sex, or want it, but marriage is a very steep price for either sex to pay (if you are commitment minded Christian).

    Sex drive can make a man want to marry. I think that having babies is the equivalent for women.

  14. femininebutnotfeminist

    “Not to be negative or sarcastic, but I am not sure women “ever” want to get married to have sex…”

    Some of us actually have a very strong sex drive that we choose to keep caged up until marriage, therefore we do want to get married to have sex, or in other words, set the caged animal loose…

  15. femininebutnotfeminist

    Not that we don’t have other reasons for wanting to get married, babies being one of many.

  16. jack

    I meant as the largest component of their desire for marriage.

    It is undeniable that on average, men have higher sex drives, although it is always possible to find some couples where this is reversed.

    But if I selected a random 22 year old guy and a random 22 year old girl and you had to bet a month’s pay on who was hornier, you would be wise to pick the guy.

    Lots of men want kids too.

  17. femininebutnotfeminist

    Oh it sounded like “no women ever want sex” or something. While this would be true of, say a woman who was molested as a child, I just wanted to say that some of us reeeeealy want it. Sorry, I misunderstood you. I realize that men tend to have a higher drive because of all that raging testosterone, and considering how difficult it can get for me to wait, I highly respect any guy that can manage to hold back the testosterone tidalwave and wait.

  18. earl

    I’m pretty sure all virgin women really want it and let it loose in marriage.

    It’s the ones that give it way to any Tom, Dick, or Harry that have no passion left when they finally get married. Those are the women to avoid.

  19. Elspeth

    Some of us actually have a very strong sex drive

    Plenty of women do, and a woman who wants to get married primarily so she can have herself some babies is a bad risk.

    In my ever so humble opinion.

  20. femininebutnotfeminist

    Elspeth,

    Just read your post linked above and I wholeheartedly agree.

  21. Ton

    Personally I’d.stay clear of women who want to marry for any reason. They are either unaware or unconcerned about the legal disadvantage a state contract puts a man. Either way, doesn’t speak well for her.

  22. @ ANO

    Yeah, its something I’m not sure of. Part of me thinks that I had the moral fibre back then, but part of me also knows that I was never really tested. Of course, even if I could resist, I’m not sure how much it would have helped me, considering that since I graduated high school I can count on one hand the number of women I think were marriage-worthy (and available, know plenty already engaged/married).

    @ Jack

    I think you are right it isn’t the biggest component, but it can be very significant none the less. Perhaps tied with other reasons. I know of one young woman who was a virgin when she married who married in part because she deeply desired her husband, and wanted to be able to act on it.

    @ FBNF

    There are a number of women around these parts who have strong sex drives, set apart even from them very much desiring their husbands. I strongly suspect that most healthy women do have them, and it is only the unhealthiness of American life (in totality) which kills most female libido.

    I realize that men tend to have a higher drive because of all that raging testosterone, and considering how difficult it can get for me to wait, I highly respect any guy that can manage to hold back the testosterone tidalwave and wait.

    It can be maddening at times. But I think that the loneliness, the mental component, can be worse.

    @ earl

    Not necessarily. There are some women who are just naturally frigid. Always something to be wary of.

    @ Elspeth

    I wholeheartedly agree with your point and that post. In fact, that post, and others like it, are part of the reason why I made that observation.

  23. Some of us actually have a very strong sex drive that we choose to keep caged up until marriage, therefore we do want to get married to have sex, or in other words, set the caged animal loose…

    Girl, we need to find you a husband, stat.

  24. @ deti

    Have you posted that list somewhere? That’s a really good explanation, and I wish more young Christian men were aware of those tells. I distinctly remember doing stuff like that as a young, unmarried girl and having it not be understood by the intended recipient. I figured he wasn’t in to me, only to hear through the grapevine later that he was but didn’t think I was in to him. It’s funny in retrospect, but it would be nice for young men to be aware of how to read IOIs (not for the purpose of engaging in fornication of course, but for evaluating a potential girl to date or pursue for courtship/marriage).

  25. @ SSM

    As I mentioned in my OP, I was totally clueless to most of this stuff. I think that most guys are naturally clueless to it. Only actual experience with women, aside from being taught, can fix this. Part of me wonders if this is intended, for pre-selection purposes.

    And yeah, its a great list by Deti.

  26. deti

    SSM:

    I sent the full list to your email.

  27. Je Suis Prest

    I don’t think having issues interpreting interest from the opposite sex is a uniquely male issue – I didn’t clue in that one guy was interested in me until he showed up at the train station to pick me up with chocolate and flowers. I seriously thought he just wanted to go climbing with me and occasionally wanted a beer after…

    @ Ton

    What about women who understand that a man takes on enormous legal risk in getting married but who, as Fbutnotf brought up, has certain desires that can’t be fulfilled without sinning outside of marriage?

    (Also, hi, I hope you and Girl are doing well)

  28. @ JSP

    Both men and women are pretty bad at understanding each other, unless we get a lot of experience or someone coaches us on how the other sex acts.

    What about women who understand that a man takes on enormous legal risk in getting married but who, as Fbutnotf brought up, has certain desires that can’t be fulfilled without sinning outside of marriage?

    I suspect that Ton would say you are out of luck. Unless by happenstance you manage to find some poor sucker of a man who somehow meets all of your requirements yet is still, despite the risks, willing to take the plunge.

  29. Ton

    Me and Girl are excellent! Thanks for asking darling.

    God does not require a state sponsored contract for a marriage to be… well a marriage. Why does she?

  30. Well, some churches require it Ton. In addition, many jurisdictions now treat “covenental” marriages the same as “legal marriages.” It is only a matter of time before co-habitation is treated the same (it already is in Qubec, and maybe other parts of Canada).

    Also, if they are from different countries “legal” marriage might be required for Visa purposes.

    But it is still a good point regardless. If it can be avoided, I think a woman’s willingness to embrace a convental marriage would speak well for her.

  31. Je Suis Prest

    @ DonalGraeme

    Yes, it’s too bad that we are so fragmented as a community generationally speaking. Some of my friends who grew up in places where people of a variety of ages socialized together have told me stories about the elders picking up on who was interested in who and making sure both parties were aware (along with the cues about how they knew – occasionally to the embarrassment of one/both of the individuals).

    @ Ton

    I’m glad to hear you’re both doing well =).

    While God doesn’t require the state to get involved, here in Canada, as soon as you live together or have kids together, you may as well be married and have a licence as the law treats both the same for all intents and purposes. Is it different in the States?

  32. Ton

    Don’t get married in the church either. God is unlikely to be found in a church these days.

    It is here in NC darling. I have no idea about any where else.

    A man should vote with his feet.

  33. Elspeth

    If it can be avoided, I think a woman’s willingness to embrace a convental marriage would speak well for her.

    Most preachers want a license before they perform the ceremony. In addition, a marriage requires witnesses, people to assent to the union taking place. Documentation somewhere, even if it’s just in the family BIble.

    Once there is a witnessed union, and children are born to it, the law can stick its nose in if one of the parties wants out. It may not be as bad as a civil marriage, but I highly doubt that you can avoid legal standards.

    Besides, most time child support payments are so high that even without a state license, it’s not as if a man gets off scot free. And then there’s the fact that when there is no state-sanctioned marriage, the children belong to her.

  34. ballista74

    And then there’s the fact that when there is no state-sanctioned marriage, the children belong to her.

    The children always belong to the woman, state-sanctioned marriage or no.

  35. @ Elspeth

    Good points. There is really no escaping the grasp of the State when marriage or the like is concerned.

  36. Elspeth

    The children always belong to the woman, state-sanctioned marriage or no.

    I get what you’re saying Ballista, but you’re not entirely right. I know of what I speak. When you’re legally married, you can fight for custody and visitation as the marriage is dissolved. I’ve seen a few men win custody, sometimes full ro at least equal.

    When you are NOT legally married, they come after your paycheck, set awards for CS, and you have no rights to visitation. They won’t even discuss it in the context of a CS hearing. You need to have your lawyer petition the court (a different judge in a different legal arena) and hope and pray that they allow you some kind of visitation.

    A man divorcing his legal wife has far more claim to his kids than one not legally married prior. Now, you might say that’s as it should be. I would be inclined to agree except these things aren’t taken into consideration when CS cases are judged. Divorced men are ATM’s yes, but they are also fathers. Men who are not legally married to the woman are just ATM’s. That’s it.

  37. Ton

    Why does it require a preacher? Doesn’t’ t say one is required for a marriage to be valid in the Bible.

    In NC the state will put more legal pressure on a baby momma to allow the bio father’s visitation then they will for an ex husband. The one helps collect child support, the other has no.affect.

    I have never seen the courts force an ex wife into abiding by the custody agreement. Ever. This was a constant issue for a number of my troopers over the years.

  38. ballista74

    @Elspeth

    I am right. You speak like things are negotiable and CS and visitation are equally enforced, but they’re not. Often the woman gets to do what she wants and the man just has to deal with it. Of course when the man does what he wants, there’s hell to pay. As Ton writes:

    I have never seen the courts force an ex wife into abiding by the custody agreement. Ever.

    So she does what she wants, when she wants, how she wants with the children. Sounds like the children are hers to me.

  39. Ton

    Well all our observations will be different because local judges will differ from AO to AO, but like I said, I have never seen the courts assist a father in seeing their child. Nor does child support differ from having a legal contract to no state sponsored marriage contract. It’s a formula and is what it is. When I was a younger man, the courts would order less child support for unwed mothers but I no longer believe that to be true

    Mostly what I see is women move beyond the 100 mile limit with the courts doing nothing. The court might produce an injunction saying she has to move back, but never enforce it. Nor will they allow the man to with hold support or alimony payments until she complies.

    A state wedding confers no practical advantages to a man besides a possibly lower federal tax liability

    While I understand a man’s desire to marry, men continuing to marry keeps the evil that is the family courts alive

  40. Je Suis Prest

    I wish my observations of the system were different, but in all the cases I was involved with, men were held absolutely to whatever standard was laid out (even when it violated common sense or basic fairness) while the women found all kinds of ways to mess with the system. I wouldn’t have believed the extent to which women weaponized children if I hadn’t seen it myself. While some of them were decent, a surprising number hated the ex more than they loved their kids. A good number of them managed to do it without even violating the letter of the custody agreement by doing things like signing a little girl up for the horseback-riding summer camp she’d always dreamed about during the father’s “time,” and then giving her ex-husband a choice between telling his little girl that she had to come visit him instead of going to camp or letting her go to camp and not seeing her that summer. It was heartbreaking to witness as on observer – I can only imagine what it was like for the men and kids involved. All that to say, I understand why (although not to the same extent as someone who has lived through it) men would be hesitant to choose marriage. If it weren’t for the fact that marriage is the only morally permissible place for sex and children, and that I believe we desperately need more children raised in God-fearing homes, I’d choose to remain single…

    I’d be open to the idea of a covenant marriage (although my understanding of the law in my AO is that it would be treated exactly the same as a legal marriage), but my father wants a legal, church wedding. I don’t want to disrespect him by defying him in that, so I’m not exactly sure where that would leave me if I were to meet a guy who was opposed to a legal, church wedding…

  41. @ JSP

    If it weren’t for the fact that marriage is the only morally permissible place for sex and children, and that I believe we desperately need more children raised in God-fearing homes, I’d choose to remain single…

    While I’m not clear if you are referring to yourself here, or voicing how men must feel, there is another set of reasons to marry, mainly psychological. Both men and women provide each other, in an intimate/conjugal relationship, with a psychological comfort that no other kind of relationship can provide.

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