Exploring Ideas and Questioning Myself- Episode 3

This is the third post in a series where I ask my readers about their thoughts and opinions concerning some subjects that have been on my mind as of late.

Saved by the Bell(curve)

One mistake that I see a lot of folks making is to assume that female attractiveness follows a perfect bell curve. More than that, they assume that the curve is centered around 5. I disagree on both accounts, but will address the later first.

From my experience, when women are eating healthy and keeping fit, the “average” young woman is a not a “five”, but closer to a “six”. Some people seem to associate an “average girl” with a “plain girl”, and I think this is a mistake. Now, each man’s own “1-10 scale” is different, and so trying to gauge a woman’s average beauty is difficult and of little utility. But from what I can tell, men base each “number” or rank in absolute terms. That is, they assign each number based on what they have seen the range of female attractiveness to vary from, with “1” being the absolute worst to “10” being the absolute best. Men don’t “curve” this ranking so that the majority of women fall into the “5” category, instead they assign women to the “5” ranking because they are in the middle of the ranges of female beauty they are familiar with.

In addition, I don’t believe that female beauty follows a perfect distribution. In fact, I would argue that there are more women who are attractive than there are women who are ugly, at least, when take factor in obesity skewing results. Assuming that “6” is the average, I think that there are at least as many “7”s as there are “5”s, and as many “8”s as “4”s. And while “9”s and “10”s are rare, I think there are as many women in those two categories as there are natural “3”s, “2”s and “1”s (the latter is exceptionally rare indeed).  Here is my attempt to create a graphical representation of this:1-10 curveSo, agree/disagree? Am I way off base here?

Free Will and Justice

Christians often have a difficult time reconciling our understanding that God is just with the fact that most sinners seem to “get away” with their sins. As a result, many of us question our faith and wonder if God is really out there, and if so, if He really cares about us or what we do. In dark times such as these, I think we are more apt to engage in such inquiries. Lest we become too troubled, however, we should remember that this seeming disparity/inequity is an age old problem. The book of Job, which is essentially a single parable covering many topics, addresses the prosperity of the wicked:

Why do the wicked live,
reach old age, and grow mighty in power?
Their offspring are established in their presence,
and their descendants before their eyes.
Their houses are safe from fear,
and no rod of God is upon them.
10 Their bull breeds without fail;
their cow calves and does not miscarry.
11 They send out their little boys like a flock,
and their children dance.
12 They sing to the tambourine and the lyre
and rejoice to the sound of the pipe.
13 They spend their days in prosperity,
and in peace they go down to Sheol.
14 They say to God, ‘Depart from us!
We do not desire the knowledge of your ways.
15 What is the Almighty, that we should serve him?
And what profit do we get if we pray to him?’
16 Behold, is not their prosperity in their hand?
The counsel of the wicked is far from me.

17 “How often is it that the lamp of the wicked is put out?
That their calamity comes upon them?
That God distributes pains in his anger?
18 That they are like straw before the wind,
and like chaff that the storm carries away?
19 You say, ‘God stores up their iniquity for their children.’
Let him pay it out to them, that they may know it.
20 Let their own eyes see their destruction,
and let them drink of the wrath of the Almighty.
21 For what do they care for their houses after them,
when the number of their months is cut off?
22 Will any teach God knowledge,
seeing that he judges those who are on high?
23 One dies in his full vigor,
being wholly at ease and secure,
24 his pails full of milk
and the marrow of his bones moist.
25 Another dies in bitterness of soul,
never having tasted of prosperity.
26 They lie down alike in the dust,
and the worms cover them.

27 “Behold, I know your thoughts
and your schemes to wrong me.
28 For you say, ‘Where is the house of the prince?
Where is the tent in which the wicked lived?’
29 Have you not asked those who travel the roads,
and do you not accept their testimony
30 that the evil man is spared in the day of calamity,
that he is rescued in the day of wrath?
31 Who declares his way to his face,
and who repays him for what he has done?
32 When he is carried to the grave,
watch is kept over his tomb.
33 The clods of the valley are sweet to him;
all mankind follows after him,
and those who go before him are innumerable.

Job’s lament is an entirely human one that we are all likely to ask at least one point in our life. There are really two questions here, both related but distinct.

The first question is: why does God let this happen? The answer is easy enough: Free Will. God has given us free will, that we might choose to do good or evil. If God were to intervene whenever someone acts wickedly, then it would nullify our free will. Free will is an exercise in causality, of cause and effect. If you remove the effect, then the cause is meaningless and free will along with it. In essence, unless free will can lead to negative consequences, whether to ourselves or others, it might as well not exist because our choices lose any semblance of being different from one another.

The second question is: how does this comport with God being just? The answer is provided by Jesus:

24 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”

God is biding his time. At the end of the Age, the weeds, that is, the Wicked, are destined for the fire. Yes, they may “get away with it” for a time. But they will not escape justice in the end.

Stand Up and Be Heard

Over at Haley’s Halo there has been a rather heated and long conversation going on involving the apparent drop off of interest in dating among Christians. The discussion is long, and there is too much to cover in a single, short post. Perhaps the most interesting facet of that post is the appearance of a newcomer to the manosphere, a woman who goes by the moniker FeminineButNotFeminist. She used the thread as a place to ask a lot of questions, many of which are quite good. Amongst her many comments was something that I thought worthy of exploring:

When we see guys (mainly non-christian) practically trip over each other to go after the easy girls while making fun of those who don’t give it up so easily (calling us prudes and acting disgusted by that) we come to believe that “if I’m willing to have sex with a guy he will want me, if I’m not willing he will be disgusted by me. Therefore the logical thing to do to get a guy is to have sex with him”. You may say “it’s the other way around!”, but unfortunately not enough christian men are making their views known to us to make us think twice about it. Like I said in another post, I was totally unaware of this until I came across this blog a few days ago, and my head is still spinning from this revelation.

FBNF, as I will call her from now on, doesn’t seem to understand why Christian men don’t make their preferences for chaste women clear. Other comments of hers express the same thing to different degrees, but she is genuinely perplexed by this reticence on the part of Christian men. Here is how I replied:

[A]ddressing your desire to see Christian men speak up about their preferences in female behavior…

That can be difficult for men to carry out in many instances. The feminization of the Church in recent years has created an especially hostile environment for men in some churches. It is so bad that in some churches men cannot speak up about what they really believe/feel without getting kicked out.

This is no accident. The increased power of women and the cowardice of male church leaders who bow to female whims was designed, in part, to achieve this end: silence men. At least, that is my running theory. Others hold to it as well, I believe.

To expand on this a bit, one of the many motivations of the feminization of society has been to curtail the ability of men to exercise their preferences. Men and women are in something of a constant competition between one another over how society should be organized. For a long time men were “winning”, but the actual results where fairly balanced in terms of what men and women received under social systems.

Male and female sexual strategies are at odds, and have always been so. Men prefer polygamy, whereas women prefer serial monogamy. However, polgyamy benefits only a few men at the expense of the rest, and so is not a terribly stable system. In the West, and many other places, this was dealt with by enforcing “hard” or lifetime monogamy, which we would understand as marriage in its original form. This system had the best results for women and men both. However, men are often very particular about what kind of women they are willing to commit to. Chastity, in the form of a woman being a virgin until marriage (or being a virgin until sleeping with the man whom she eventually marries), was a huge component of this. For men, female sexual history matters (although in some cultures it is less important, but I suspect that this sentiment is still there in some form), in that men prefer a number of partners as low as possible. Women, however, are not at all concerned with male sexual history, and if they are, they are looking for a man with a higher number. Which effectively puts male and female desires at odds with one another.

What does this mean? It means that women in some ways benefit from a society that encourages promiscuity, because their own sexual history has less of an impact on their marriage prospects, plus they are better able to screen for more attractive men (who will have more sexual partners). In short, the present SMP is good for non-virtuous women. And I suspect that many of them know this.

So where does this play into men making their preferences heard? Simple. A man who actively expresses his preferences for female chastity is threatening the female preferred SMP. His expression of preferences is a challenge to the current model, as they are incompatible. The only way for his to become reality is for the present system to fall. Many, even most, women do not want this. They like the present system. And so they will do whatever it takes to preserve the existing system. That means exercising their group influence to try and silence men who speak up about their preferences. They will confront Church leaders and force them to choose between angering most of the church’s women, or cracking down on a single man. Which do you think church leadership will do? Any man who sticks his head out by speaking up is making himself a target.

It Makes Me Tremble, Tremble

Elspeth has been wondering why the fear of the Lord has left the church. I offered one suggestion in the comments to that post, but would like to offer another:

Very few people, Christian or Jew, have ever truly feared the Lord. Wickedness is the norm in human/biblical history, and those of us who keep the faith all too easily forget it. The Israelites had hardly escaped the Egyptians at the Red Sea, saved only by divine intervention, before they began to worship a golden calf.

Most “moral” behaviors were only followed in the past because society enforced some form of punishment for their transgression. Whether it was murder, adultery, fornication or theft, there was a price to be paid for violating moral laws which were also Christian tenets. Sometimes the punishment was criminal, while at other times it was only social. Either way, it was the fear of immediate, worldly punishment that kept most people in line. Those who could get away with it, or thought they could, would often ignore those laws.

The reason why so many “Christians” flagrantly and repeatedly violate Christian teaching nowadays is because they are no longer punished in a worldly fashion. They can, in effect, “get away with it”, to steal a line from above. You see, they don’t really believe. Oh, they may say they do. But you know a tree by its fruits. Few really take Christianity to heart, especially from a young age. Usually it requires a “Come to Jesus” moment, inspired by worldly hardship, before most Christians will actually embrace the faith.

So, to answer Elspeth’s question, fear of the Lord never left the church. It was never there to begin with.

Does this comport with other people’s perceptions of the Church? Am I off my rocker to think that “Churchianity” is the norm, and has been throughout history?

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43 Comments

Filed under Christianity, Churchianity, Feminism, God, Marriage, Men, Polygamy, Red Pill, Sex, Sexual Market Place, Sexual Strategies, Women

43 responses to “Exploring Ideas and Questioning Myself- Episode 3

  1. ballista74

    So, agree/disagree? Am I way off base here?

    Agree but for the wrong reasons. I find in myself and other men I’ve been around when it involves talking about women that most are very objective based on what they see (with the exception of personal preference of course). A man’s 7, for instance will be most all men’s 7. So it’s not as subjective as you make it sound. But it should go without saying that most women will be average, few will be exceptionally beautiful or exceptionally ugly.

    Does this comport with other people’s perceptions of the Church? Am I off my rocker to think that “Churchianity” is the norm, and has been throughout history?

    Yes, Churchianity (or men following what they want/thinking they know better than God instead of following God) has existed since about 100AD and bloomed into full predominance about 330AD or so, and we see several instances even in Scripture where it was put down (Ananias and Sapphira come to mind pretty readily). God’s holiness or a true fear of God is a foreign and completely non-understood concept to nearly all who proclaim Christ today.

  2. I find in myself and other men I’ve been around when it involves talking about women that most are very objective based on what they see (with the exception of personal preference of course). A man’s 7, for instance will be most all men’s 7.

    That is what I used to think, but since I covered the topic recently it seems that objectivity is less common than you would seem to indicate. Talking with some women I know, they were getting some pretty significant deviations in terms of their “number” from the men they asked.

  3. “Am I off my rocker to think that “Churchianity” is the norm, and has been throughout history?”

    Churchianity is a plan to destroy the church and it will get worse as we see in Revelations. No, I don’t think the church was always like this, which is why it was seen as the biggest threat.

  4. jack

    I want the wicked punished.

    I don’t want the faithful punished, even if they screw up.

    To be clear, I don’t view the Christians who ‘get away with it’ to be equivalent to ‘the wicked’.

    The wicked will not escape judgment. The saved will, even if they made serious errors. Using the parable of the workers in the vineyard, I am not even convinced (as Amanda asserts) that the Christians who sin will forgo heavenly rewards. I think that some people will just be blessed much more in this life, and in the next we all are rewarded mostly the same.

    Maybe God himself will tell me to ‘get over it’ and man up, or whatever. Maybe He doesn’t care one whit about the things that affect me in this area.

  5. Deep Strength

    @ Donal

    That is what I used to think, but since I covered the topic recently it seems that objectivity is less common than you would seem to indicate. Talking with some women I know, they were getting some pretty significant deviations in terms of their “number” from the men they asked.

    There’s probably some sort of gaussian distribution on what men think about a single woman, just like all women fall under some sort of gaussian distribution curve.

    For example, for a single woman:

    5 men think she is a 4
    20 men think she is a 5
    50 men think she is a 6
    20 men think she is a 7
    5 men think she is an 8

    I do believe the overall curve is right. Most average women that are thin and 18-25 will fall around a 6. Looking Glass proposed this a couple threads ago on SSM’s I believe.

  6. Looking Glass proposed this a couple threads ago on SSM’s I believe.

    I created that section in partial response to some stuff I was seeing posted on SSM’s and elsewhere. Some folks were asserting a perfect bell curve was at work, and this did not match my own observations.

    Also, I agree that there is something of a gaussian effect in play, although I think it is probably inclined more to the right side of the curve as well.

  7. Saved by the Bell(curve)

    Given that women mature physically much earlier than men, perhaps the distribution should normally be skewed to the right for younger women, with a considerable number of the population showing a value greater than a normal distribution.

    As women age, you might imagine their SMP would skew the majority of that population well to the left of a normal curve as the declines of physical degredation take place. Unavoidable.

    The feminine imperative supports the former, but resists the latter.

    in addition, slutty behaviour and the poor attitudes encouraged by feminists also subtract points. Widespread obesity fostered by the standard american diet is artifically lowering the ‘average’ girls attractiveness.

    Hence, the get fat acceptance movements. stories about women being ‘hot’ into old age, and on it goes. Anything to resist mens natural inclination to prefer youth and beauty.

  8. Observer, the graphic I included addresses only SMV. MMP is a more complex formula, with things like attitudes and behaviors having a role. They are relevant for finding a mate, to be certain. But I was solely analyzing attractiveness.

  9. Im thinking longitudinally. Oops. The point i made about obesity and attitude shifting the curve still stands.

    Given the average girl can sleep around, delay marriage and has to date continued to be likely to be able to get married, what incentive does the average woman have to maximise her attractiveness then?

  10. Her attractiveness still affects the final quality of man she can marry, irrespective of all other factors. So it is worthwhile, to a point. Although from a female perspective since a male 6 is not much better than a male 5 (neither is attractive), then it doesn’t matter unless that difference is enough to snag a man she considers attractive. At which point the inquiry turns into what point a woman considers a man attractive.

  11. mmm. Given the attractiveness ratings are a conglomerate rating, presumably individual differences such as the weighting (!) attached to specific individual attractors, then come into play.

    Although since women are always described as herd animals, I do wonder how much that might effect the outcome by making them closely approximate each others ranking systems.

    For example, FBNF pointed out her belief that women undervalue their attractiveness. We know women are thir own worst enemies (Heartiste did a recent post on it). Since women compete viciously, that may be a herd strategy to ensure best outcomes for the highest ranking individual members by ratcheting down overall perceptions of physical attractiveness, whilst simultaneously producing overvalued SMV calculations (the ‘you go girl’ phenomena).

    I need to think this over…..

  12. Any man who sticks his head out by speaking up is making himself a target.

    As Joseph of Jackson found out.

    In this current reality, even when a man speaks truth amongst a forest of lies and no-one listens, it is still truth. Men have been robbed of public credibility. The feminine imperative has crowned women the superior moral gender.

    This applies in the churches too. The pastor has only as much authority as his female parishioners grant him. Step outside that and face peril. This links back to your other question. Are the churches in that much error?

    I think so, yes. Compare and contrast fathers day to mothers day messages. A church man who gets divorced must have treated her badly; a church woman who gets divorced is assumed to have been cheated on.

    The exchange of truth for lies has been so gradual, much like Marge Simpson noting how Fox became a porn channel in Lisa’s wedding episode, that few have noticed.

    Those that do become marginalised. Speak up and be evicted. The issue matters not: womens suffrage, support for the states wars, the shoddy treatment of men as disposable, the change from preaching the truth to feel-good sermons about what happened this past week.

    The rogerian humanism of the sixties merely hastened the process. Its probably been in chain a lot longer than that.

    Rationality is now deemed discriminatory, racist and misogynistic. Black and white truth has devolved to surreptitious readings of fifty shades of grey at womens groups, Tuesday bingo and Thursday community college lessons on self pleasuring in the church hall.

    As Dave Barry used to say. I’m not making this up.

  13. earl

    To put into perspective…I once told a woman who was on birth control what I really thought about it.

    It was like attacking her children or something. Yes today’s woman does not want the current system to fail because she gets all the advantages when she is in her prime.

    The only way it will collapse is if good men make a stand and don’t reward these women with the golden parachute of marriage. It was a good system before…but it isn’t now. Take your talents elsewhere.

    And here is my prediction…once the median age for men to marry is 30…you’ll see a sharp drop in the marriage rate. If a man makes it to 30 without getting snagged usually his eyes are open to what women really are because he thinks with his big head instead of the little one.

  14. Ton

    Women under value their attractiveness….. well I know some do an the idea plays will with women and “self esteem” but my experience dating says the opposite is more likely to be true. The more average a chick is the more likely she is to adjusted her smv upward. The hotter the girl the more likely she is to over play her flaws/ down grade her smp. It’s odd but hot chicks have shown me way less attitude then average chicks. Any rate, their are more average chicks in total numbers over stating their value then there are hot chicks. By default more girls are over valuing themselves.

    Earl the system will collapse because it is unnatural and based on lies. Like the economy. No one really has to do anything, but many things would speed up the fall.

    It’s difficult to fear the Lord when you see the wicked prosper, so I agree free of the Lord is a rare.commodity

    I agree with your beauty bell curve.

    I have never seen anyone make fun of chaste girls. Ever. Lots of doubtful looks that she is chaste but no ridicule and I run in secular crowds.

  15. FeminineButNotFeminist

    My arrival to the blog was really that interesting? Hmmm that’s interesting to me… 🙂

    Though I’m not sure yet if I will end up being part of the manosphere or not. Due to my extremely limited amount of understanding of it I’m currently on the fence. Much of what I was soooo sure of has suddenly been thrown into question. Both the blue and red pills are looking so wrong, yet so right at the same time. And both seem very hard to swallow. I believe it unwise to make life altering decisions on a whim, so I’ll have to find the answers to my many questions first (most of which I can’t even put into words yet).

    Perhaps the fact that it’s hard to swallow only serves to prove that you are right Donal. I knew that individual people were oftentimes hostile to men, but I never thought of the church as such, especially with most pastors being men. I always thought “geez these guys have it made. They get all this instruction on how to be Godly men while I’m sitting here stumbling around in the dark trying to figure out on my own what it means to be a Godly woman. When will they start teaching US? I feel so left out!” But what you’re saying easily explains WHY they aren’t teaching us. Ya know, the fact that the church is likely teaching some things wrong is a pretty scary thought, and is probably an even bigger pill to swallow…

  16. mdavid444444

    Jack, The wicked will not escape judgment. The saved will, even if they made serious errors.

    So…what exactly is the difference between one who is “wicked” and another who is making “serious errors”? That the latter gave lip service that he is “saved”? Religious hamster running wild, to me.

    The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him…1Jn2:4

  17. jack

    Think it through. I’m not talking about paying lip service, I’m talking about people who backslid for a season, then got right with the Lord.

    I expect the Lord to do as He says and forgive their sins and remember them no more. For instance, consider the recent discussion about a young woman who decides to have premarital sex with a man because she desires commitment, and they end up married, later repenting of the way they first came together. Would I want God to “not forgive” that? Of course not.

    Now, if a person is continuously in sin, and only paying lip service to God’s law, then we have a case of non-repentance.

    Sometimes I wish I was ignorant of the truth when I was young so I could also have advanced my life in the areas of sex and marriage, and then plausibly repent of it later.

    I am – regrettably – coming around to the idea that if it meant being happily married today, I would be willing to deal with having had a brief period of premarital sex on my conscience. I think the overall pain would be less.

  18. Because I gotta…..

    The idea of someone getting away with sin drives churchian women crazy. Its why they maintain a sanctimonious frame even if they are in a moral sewer. They list off conditions for the moral nature of their man, while then using that to exert utter control of the relationship, yielding men’s oft stated “gotta ask the wife”.

    These women cannot even stand it if some man they dont know has not surrendered his pound of flesh. You see this in online discussions between women who dont know each other, where those feeling some urge to get vicarious revenge advise the most aggressive treatment of the most trivial infractions based on scripture conflation.

  19. mdavid444444

    donelgraeme: another excellent, well-thought out post. You have a gift.

    I would challenge you to consider “structures of sin” as to why there can be no easy solution to the current situation. We live in a culture where women are aborting 9/10 Downs babies, for goodness sakes. There must be cultural punishment for such evil. And we are living it. There is simply no way the Church can function normally in this milieu unless she is practically underground and relentlessly preaching the truth. Is that happening? No. Rather, most bishops curry favor from the power brokers of the world, trying to extract wealth from the rich liberal Boomers who have the cash thus cannot be offended with hard preaching. Therefore, more suffering must happen until, in desperation, the next generation of the church begins to fear for their own safety. Only then will they start to look to men for help. And we are many years from that yet, probably several decades at least. Until then, one must look to his own defenses and just ignore the feminized church. You really are on your own.

    Having said that: the Church remains the “pillar and foundation of truth” and her doctrine is sound. The teachings remain traditional even in this broken world; she still preaches Christ crucified, redemptive suffering, male-only priesthood, anti-abortion, anti-birth control, etc. This is the fundamental role of the Church, and these teaching are never changing. Take comfort in that while the structures of sin are slowly erased by suffering. But in the meantime, men must a) make their own way with zero help from the church, and b) (on average) be more flexible about women’s failures, especially chastity, because girls really are the weaker sex and families offer them very little moral protection today. Of course, individual men need not forgive these failures, and can instead chose a solitary life or even import women from overseas. I know men who have done both, successfully.

    an observer: great comment.

  20. @ Earl

    And here is my prediction…once the median age for men to marry is 30…you’ll see a sharp drop in the marriage rate. If a man makes it to 30 without getting snagged usually his eyes are open to what women really are because he thinks with his big head instead of the little one.

    It might be there already Earl, and if it isn’t, then it must be close.

    Sadly, I don’t expect men to wise up en masse for a while yet.

  21. @ Ton

    I’ve noticed similar observations about women as well. The nicest often, but not always, are the best looking. The worst tend to be pretty but not beautiful, with those who are rather plain in the middle of pleasantness.

    I haven’t seen virgin shaming directed at women before, but that might be something women do when men aren’t around.

  22. @ FBNF

    The best way to approach the “Red Pill” is to treat it like it was in the Matrix: a wake-up call that everything you know is wrong. Your eyes are opened now, so the most important thing you can do is look around you. Ask questions when needed; in fact, question everything.

    As a woman, the “Red Pill” holds in some respects less value to you than it does for men, for a variety of reasons. But there are still some valuable lessons to be learned.

    Ya know, the fact that the church is likely teaching some things wrong is a pretty scary thought, and is probably an even bigger pill to swallow…

    Indeed. I was always wary of popular culture, and so wasn’t ensnared by it. But I failed to appreciate just how far afield the church has gone astray. The full extend of the corruption is frightening to behold, especially for Protestant churches.

  23. Ton

    Good point on the vrigin shaming though I took it the OP to mean men were doing the shaming. And I can almost see it happening if the man in question thinks her chastity is some lame excuse for friend zoning him. Guys are getting feed up with the bullshit from women and are becoming increasingly more hard hearted toward them. Which is all for the better as I reckon things

    I don’t ever recommend sinning, being a sinner myself is enough. However Jack’s wanderings should be the norm. Men should wonder why they are basically punished for trying to do what is right. Thing’s won’t change until men get to wondering

  24. @ Mdavid

    I have talked to some priests who have begun to appreciate what is going on. They are a minority at this point, but some are starting to appreciate the danger. I can only hope that more follow, and soon. In the meantime, I am devoting myself to try and educate as much of the clergy as I can about the present problems.

    I will give “structures of sin” some examination for future posts.

    Holding onto fundamental truths is pointless unless they are actually preached. In fact, that is the first step towards changing them. Fortunately, I don’t see the church changing the most critical and essential component of its long term survival: an all-male priesthood.

    Also, I’m not sure that flexibility is the right word to use when dealing with female chastity. Perhaps solely in the risk-assessment sense it works. Which is what is really at play for most men, although there are some psychological and other aspects as well.

  25. mdavid444444

    Jack, Think it through. I’m not talking about paying lip service, I’m talking about people who backslid for a season, then got right with the Lord.

    Thanks for explaining. I agree that if a wicked man truly repents and intends to be wicked no more, he is indeed forgiven.

    My hamster comment stems from your language, where one type of sinner is “wicked” yet another is only making “serious errors”…and now only “backsliding”. I would word it the other way around; one who continues to sin after claiming salvation is far more “wicked” than the ignorant sinner: “If we go on sinning after receiving the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of fire…Hb 10:26″

  26. jack

    mDavid-

    Yep, and I sure hope that applies to Christian girls who willingly sleep with unsaved men and rationalize it away.

    I’d sooner marry a freshly converted prostitute than a Christian girl and her doped-up hamster.

  27. FeminineButNotFeminist

    Donal and Ton,

    Perhaps “virgin shaming” isn’t very widespread, it simply happens to be my experience (and the experience of at least one other virgin that I know). In my case it came from a particular group at school (mostly male with a few females) who regularly did make fun of me, and even from some members of my non-christian family, most notably my older brother and even my dad. I’ve heard the word “prude” so many times it’s not even funny. When my dad got sick he started scolding me (he is the only one I mentioned who didn’t actually make fun of me, just eventually got angry) saying I’m being rediculous to wait for a husband before having kids, that he wanted to see at least one grandkid before he dies so I’d “better hurry up!!!”. I don’t know how widespread this actually is though.

  28. When my dad got sick he started scolding me (he is the only one I mentioned who didn’t actually make fun of me, just eventually got angry) saying I’m being rediculous to wait for a husband before having kids, that he wanted to see at least one grandkid before he dies so I’d “better hurry up!!!”.

    Wow. Never heard that one before. I’m sorry you had to deal with that. And impressed you resisted that kind of family pressure.

  29. Ton

    Without a doubt I am not questioning your experience or that it sucked major ass for you,.simply the frequency of such events.

    Then men in your family are FUBAR.

  30. femininebutnotfeminist

    Thank you 🙂

    I can be very stubborn when I want to be, oftentimes to a fault. But occasionally it is a good thing.

  31. Hey fbnf,

    Taking a red pill perspective is a bit like sanctification, requiring ongoing application. Its been three years or so for me, and it is a voyage of discovery.

    Once the basic frame of male and female is understood it can be applied to almost anywhere. Churches are badly effected, probably dating back eight hundred years to the originals of chivalry and changing notions of men and women.

    The church scolds men by telling them to man up, lead better, work harder, and this is basically the only instruction I’ve ever heard. But pastors fail to teach biblical roles in marriage, focussing on the ‘you go girl’ messages of careerism and empowerment straight out of a Gloria Steinem notebook.

    That’s amazing what your father said, have never heard that before.

    I too was very reluctant to enter the manosphere, but desperately wanted to learn what was going on. Some years down the rabbit hole’ adopting mild game tactics has helped my carriage, and omproved interactions at work. But you have to choose. Analogies to the matrix movie abound. Some days are harder than others but I would not want to go back.

  32. femininebutnotfeminist

    Observer,

    Very well said!

  33. @donal…

    If you are heading to church in the near future…the Gospel story is another example of a sinner getting away with it and people grumbling so to speak how life isn’t fair.

    And wouldn’t you know…there are several examples in the Gospel of sinners getting away with it. It seems following rules and regulations to a tee isn’t necessarily the most important thing God looks for in a person. If that was the case the Pharisees would be in Heaven.

  34. Are you referring to Zacchaeus? I wouldn’t say that he “got away with it.” His penance would have impoverished him, no doubt.

  35. @donalgraeme
    “Free Will. God has given us free will, that we might choose to do good or evil”

    I have a bit of a quibble there. You see since god is sovereign and does as he pleases he has “free will” truly. Though man chooses evil and makes mistakes yet god always has his way.

    So it is not free will but agency that man is given. But only so far as god allows.

    In the end man do not have autonomy or free-will because god’s will trumps all will.

  36. “Free will” only existed before the fall – after that all mankind was enslaved to sin, and the only choice one had was between “bad” and “worse”.

  37. @ FBNF and Donal

    “Therefore the logical thing to do to get a guy is to have sex with him”. You may say “it’s the other way around!”, but unfortunately not enough christian men are making their views known to us to make us think twice about it. Like I said in another post, I was totally unaware of this until I came across this blog a few days ago, and my head is still spinning from this revelation.”

    The whole thing is simple, really. The situation isn’t made by men, it’s simply men responding to the situation. Women are rewarding men who make their interest known early, often, and loudly. You can’t ignore that these men are sexual, so you never see them as anything other than sexual. You can’t put them in the friend zone because they’ll start virgin shaming you.

    So, any man with a desire just for sex says he wants sex
    Any man wanting a relationship without any morals says he wants sex, and hopes for the relationship after.
    Many man with morals but no delusions says he wants sex, and then avoids having sex till marriage. But he gets attraction going
    And then you have blind men with morals staying chaste and virgin, silent and ignored by any woman as they stand in the corner.

    Three kinds of men that are hard to tell apart, and one unseen and unheard.There’s a few rare men who have their masculinity and morals in check, who are also honest about their intentions, but rarely get rewarded for those. Donal is an example. I’ve met two others in person who -might- fall into that category. I do not.

    Hilariously enough, even the men who ‘want to date’ are outside of chastity, as you’ve pointed out in some of your Courtship ideas Donal. Yet even they are still not sinful enough to tempt women in today’s day and age.

    @ Donal

    I don’t think that Churchianity is ‘the norm’ but I do think it is a regular occurrence. My knowledge of Catholic history is thin, but from what I can tell there are regular ages of irreverence which inspire a traditional movement, a purity of thought and worship, which revives the church. Sometimes a great many silent, unseen saints, and sometimes theological powerhouses like Saint Augustine taking the floor. I’ve also heard some tempting theories that some of these occurrences are avoided ‘possible apocalyptic ages’ which were avoided through such reformations within the Church and the resultant revival of faith. Each time seems to be dire, indeed, yet so far has led to revelations within the church and a great growth.

    I can’t help but think that we’re in, or heading towards, another such time. There are so many questions within the Church right now that desperately need answers. I can only imagine Saints rising in response, or the world plunging into chaos. I’m preparing for both.

  38. @ ANO and Infowarrior

    Interesting points about “Free Will”. Assuming I ever get time, worth looking up some theology on that.

    @ Leap

    It isn’t just that women are rewarding men who make their interest known, it is that the women aren’t taught to avoid such men, and even more than that, that such men are allowed to make such advances without fear of social punishment.

    I like your point about the different types of men. I think I will integrate that into my next post.

    Churchianity was probably the wrong word to use there. What I was referring to was those individuals who attend church as a social/community event, not because they actually Believe. I suspect that ever since the church was no longer target for persecution under Rome that many, if not most, of the folks at the pews have fallen into this category. Of course, the points you raise are valid and hold a lot of truth. There is definitely something cyclical to this. Unsurprising, really, considering that was the case with ancient Israel.

  39. @ Donal
    Sadly, those advances are part of the ‘boys will be boys’ derogatory treatment that women love because the rebels thrill them while it also gets their blood pumping. I’m excited to see where you’ll go with the types of men though

    As for people in pews being related to churchianity…

    I would say that the people going to church as a social thing is tied to the cyclical nature of things. How can you have a church in a crisis of faith without there being a lack of faith? To my knowledge, ever single major time of turmoil within the Church was a crisis of faith that then found issues to latch onto as an excuse for that crisis. Then a couple options present themselves. Sometimes the issues are dealt with. Sometimes a group tries to splinter off and fails. Sometimes they succeed. Usually this last leads to persecution of the Church, which leads to saints and martyrs to revive the faith. My mind right now goes to England under Henry as a main example of such.

  40. “Are you referring to Zacchaeus? I wouldn’t say that he “got away with it.” His penance would have impoverished him, no doubt.”

    There is a part in the story where the people grumbled that Jesus was hanging out with a sinner and shutting them out. It was their version of a man getting away with it.

  41. whatsnew

    The exact shape of the curve does not matter… It probably changes with time etc.

    The really big deals have always been the eye-opening graphs from a dating site, with the very big difference in shape of the women-rating-men graph compared to the men-rating-women, where women rate 80% of men as “below average” in looks (which really have a lot of “attractiveness” mixed in):

    http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/

    As to the “free will” and justice part, that’s very controversial theology, and different denominations give very very different answers.

    One not-so-common observation from the Job story is that religious people obey God not because he is just and benevolent and/or rewards them for obeying him; but simply because he is the creator, and his will is paramount.

    Religious people cannot judge God, no matter what He wills. It is God’s creation to do as God pleases; if He were a contrarian God, God may even punish the believer for doing His will and reward those who rebel (futilely of course) against him, but a religious person would still do His will.

    To the point that if there were a conflict between human morality and divine will, a religious man should follow divine will. For example if God’s will were to commit genocide, it would be sin to refuse to do it, or do it incompletely.

    Fortunately the God of the old and new Testament is mostly good and His will is mostly compatible with human morality, but God could well change His will anytime.

    But again, all this part of theology is very controversial, and many hundreds of thousands or millions of people have murdered each other over different answers.

  42. whatsnew

    [One not-so-common observation from the Job story is that religious people obey God [ … ] But again, all this part of theology is very controversial]

    As to this, I just read an a review of a book that readers here might find interesting:

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/book-review-the-book-of-job-a-biography-by-mark-larrimore/

  43. I’d like to add…
    Fold in devout Christianity, a childhood of sexualised bullying that only God got me through without killing myself, a steely unwillingness to throw THAT protection back in God’s face, a desire to protect that led me to reject several offers of sex in the past because I was looking out for the lady’s and my best interests (refusal to risk STIs or getting someone pregnant – looking out for HER chastity as well).. and Asperger Syndrome developmental delay (meant I wasn’t ready for sex when it was offered)…

    Donal’s type 5 guy – but on steroids…
    Oh – and having to unpack a massive pile of damage that led to massive weight gain… but dealing with that.

    Annoying that chaste guys are marked down in the MMP.. meaning we can’t find our feet…

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