Belated Advice

I have been busy lately, and so I couldn’t participate in most blogging affairs over the last few days. Fortunately, I have some free time now, and would like to devote it to writing a few posts. This first post is a response, of sorts, to Sunshine Mary’s post “Is it ever advisable to marry a woman who has had previous sexual partners?” Most of the other commentators in the thread covered much of the advice that I was going to give, but there were some points which were stronger than others which I would like to restate, as well as throw in a few ideas of my own.

To begin with, I think that the overall answer to the question is Yes. There are situations where it is advisable for a man to marry such a woman. As a Christian, I would be remiss if I failed to mention Hosea as one instance. Of course, that is a fairly extreme example where God Himself felt it necessary to inflict a punishment on Hosea in order to teach a lesson to the Israelites. A less onerous example would be that of Ruth, who was a God-fearing widow.  For other men, there were also occasions where it was advisable, or at least, not disastrous, for them to marry such a woman.

At heart, this question is over-broad. It really comes down to the man and the woman in question. A man who himself has fornicated in the past is, in my opinion, someone who has less overall to worry about marrying an non-virgin. For the man who was the inspiration of the post, with an N=1, then a potential dilemma is avoided by him. As Sunshine Mary noted in the post, I have expressed a view before that there are four types of marriages:

1. She is a virgin. He is a virgin.
2. She is a virgin. He is not a virgin.
3. She is not a virgin. He is not a virgin.
4. She is not a virgin. He is a virgin.

Now, I would like to clarify that I think my original assertion used “chaste” rather than virgin, but it probably applies. And chastity has no doubt some effect as well  if separated from virginity (meaning there are more kinds of marriages, but I like the simplicity of this, so I will keep it for now).  But applied to this fellow, he has available to him the second and third options. I’m not sure how close they are to one another, but I will say that I believe that the largest gap is between three and four. From what I can tell, option 4 marriages are extremely risky for the man. They require a truly grateful and repentant woman in order to be sustained. So because this gap exists, he doesn’t have to worry about being stuck in the riskiest category of marriages.

Instead, this comes down to two elements: one psychological, one risk-based.

The first element is whether he is alright with other men having had sex with his wife. This is something up to the individual man. Only he can know. My suspicion is that it applies more strongly to men who are chaste than men who aren’t. A guy who hasn’t fornicated will naturally react differently to this situation than a PUA turned serious.

The second is whether he thinks she is worth the risk of marrying. This is an almost economic/utilitarian analysis. And once again, depends on the man and the woman. Essentially, it comes down to determining how much of a risk she is, and balancing this against whether he thinks he is likely to find a better match out there, and what the consequences to him will be of remaining unmarried for the rest of his life.

Again, only the individual man can answer this question. To help this man further, I would need to know more about the both of them. But right now I spotted a couple of red flags that worried me:

– One is the rebellious streak in her. Sounds like she was raised right, and then went off to live a life of sin. This is always worrisome. Now, there are prodigal daughters as well as prodigal sons, but that same personality trait might still be present. And unless she has changed that, it bodes ill.

– Her age. While she has yet to hit the wall, it is still possible she, because of her background, is entering a form of “baby rabies” or “marriage craze”, early. So it is important to understand when she left her sinful life behind her and how long she has been trying to live a Godly life.

Otherwise, more specific answers would require more info. If he wants further advice, he can contact me using the information on my about page.

Oh, and by the way, to answer Rollo’s question: No. I would not marry this woman. Most important is that she was unchaste. As I’ve explained before, that is a deal-breaker for me. Nothing besides a divine command from the Almighty would convince me otherwise. Besides that, those red flags worried me. Marriage is such a risk now I am going to insist that I get as much value from it as I can now, while also minimizing that risk as much as possible.

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16 Comments

Filed under Alpha Widow, Attraction, Marriage, Men, Moral Agency, Red Pill, Sex, State of Nature, Women

16 responses to “Belated Advice

  1. Yeah Rollo asked me that question too…without the Godly command in there plus all the risks I had to say no as well.

    This is the bitter side of the truth…having that knowledge because if I was still in lala land I probably would have rationalized married a N=3 type woman as virtuous. Not anymore.

  2. Ton

    Given the legal conditions it is unwise for any man to marry any woman. Risk factors simply add to the foolishness, short of SkySix showing up in a burning bush and telling you to

  3. I thought of an alternative but equally simple chart:

    1. Their N is equal.
    2. His N is higher than hers.
    3. Her N is higher than his.

    I would say that they would go in that order, from best to worst, with a couple of caveats. First, I mean real N. Not both of them saying 3, where for him that means one relationship, one one-night-stand, and one time he felt up his cousin; while for her it means three long-term relationships, two one-night-stands, a couple of drunk hookups where she doesn’t remember what happened except that she woke up sans underpants, and two times she gave a guy a handjob to get him to stop pawing at her. I mean truly equal — they have roughly the same number and quality of sexual experiences.

    The other caveat would be that I think #1 and #2 are fairly close together, but then there’s a huge gap between #2 and #3. My #3 is closest to your #4, and is very likely to fail. Success with #3 requires the things we’ve been talking about — major regret and repentance, significant time away from dating to establish new patterns, etc. #2 really only requires that he decides to commit to her and stop playing around.

    I don’t know if I like this chart better than yours, but it does handle the situation where an N=1 is considering an N=10, where on your chart they would be on the same level. On the other hand, it doesn’t treat virgins much differently than N=1 people, and I’m not sure about that.

  4. I don’t know if I like this chart better than yours, but it does handle the situation where an N=1 is considering an N=10, where on your chart they would be on the same level. On the other hand, it doesn’t treat virgins much differently than N=1 people, and I’m not sure about that.

    I was attempting to distill a relationship as far down as I could. Mine is essentially two different binary variables interacting. It doesn’t provide depth, or as you point out, demonstrate that there is quite a difference between a man with N=1 and a woman with N=10. Principally, I was arguing from the standpoint that the first number is the most significant of them all. Which was largely based on the data Social Pathologist posted.

  5. Yeah, either method misses something, but trying to cover all possible combinations at once would make it overly complicated. Probably mine is best seen as a subset of yours, where if neither are virgins (your #3), then refer to my chart.

    I guess I’m unsure how strong I think the divide really is between virgins and non-virgins. I know the data shows that virgins stay married at a significantly higher rate than N=1 people. But N=1 people also do much better than N=2 people. Also, age is a factor. If I were 20, I might hold out for a virgin. But in my 40s, if I meet a virgin in my age range, she either just escaped from a convent or she likely has “issues.” 30-year-old virgins who are that way out of virtue, and not because of some weirdness in their youth that made them afraid of men and sex, are awfully scarce. Protecting their virginity for that long, fighting against nature, even if for the right reasons, is bound to affect them. So at my age, they all have sexual baggage; the question is what kind, how much, and do I want to deal with it?

  6. @ Donal and Earl

    I don’t advise men, but if I did, I would advise them not to marry a woman who had had a previous sex partner. It’s that simple. If men en masse enacted a hard and fast code that they would not marry sluts, then some women would choose not to be sluts. But it’s not even just that; the Bible NEVER tells men to marry unchaste women, short of by some kind of divine command.

    The first thing people usual say to me when I say that women who are not virgins should not be married is, “Well, you had several previous sex partners, and you’re married.” Correct, I am married. I did not reap the consequences that I deserved. That is the whole problem; although I repented of the sin, I essentially got away with it. I’m trying to make up for that in my own way with my blog, but if all women are always getting away with it, it makes it a lot harder for women to make the right choice.

  7. @Sunshinemary:
    I’ve met some women in college who have had previous sexual partners and still do, but plan to get married and have kids one day. Nobody sees having sex before marriage as a detriment to getting married. They know men will still marry them and they’re right. That is why women who decide to stay virgins until married aren’t doing so for marriage, but because they are serious about their faith. Most men don’t value chastity these days. Most women from my college would laugh at the idea that since they have had sex they can’t get married. Women today can have their cake and eat it too when it comes to this scenario. That being said, I still feel sorry for them because I would rather stay single my whole life than disobey God and give it up before marriage.

  8. earl

    “Well, you had several previous sex partners, and you’re married.”

    And while I’m a virgin…I have committed sexual sins and I’m not married.

    Now is this a penance from God for those things…possibly…but the point is the Earthly consquences aren’t equal for all people when it comes to similar sins…but the eternal consequences are. That should be the primary motivation to repent…and let the chips fall where they may on Earth.

  9. earl

    “That being said, I still feel sorry for them because I would rather stay single my whole life than disobey God and give it up before marriage.”

    That’s a good attitude to have. I’ve read stories about similiar women subscribing to that idea…they are called saints.

  10. Elspeth

    I don’t advise men, but if I did, I would advise them not to marry a woman who had had a previous sex partner. It’s that simple.

    Honestly, I would feel like a total hypocrite saying that to any man who wasn’t a virgin himself.

    I say as with all things in life, individual situations vary. Divine guidance and godly wisdom from elders is key here.

  11. I don’t advise men, but if I did, I would advise them not to marry a woman who had had a previous sex partner. — SSM

    I’d like to give that advice, but as a man, I understand just how much men really, really, really, really want sex. Like a whole lot. Take how much you think they want sex, and multiply it by a thousand. And there aren’t that many virgins out there. If the only men who marry are those who can find virgins, that leaves millions of men celibate, “burning” as St. Paul puts it, with the exception of the minority who are called to religious celibacy. That’s not a good situation for them as individual men, and it’s certainly not a good situation for society.

    On the other hand, I certainly wouldn’t tell a guy to rush in, and I’d have a long list of dealbreakers and red flags (many of which would apply to a virgin too) for him to check out to reduce his risk as much as possible. I don’t know if I’ll ever marry again myself, because I’ve set the bar very high, and I don’t know whether any woman will reach it. I’m too old to wait for the next generation of girls and see if they were raised right. But I just can’t go as far as ruling out all non-virgins. That just reminds me too much of the line from Sam Kinison (no stranger to the dangers of marriage himself): ‘What are you gonna do, give sheep the vote?”

  12. @ SSM

    I have to agree with Elspeth that a man who himself fornicated in the past is a hypocrite if he demands that his wife be a virgin. Yes, the worldly consequences are different when men and women fornicate, but sin has consequences. A man who fornicates loses any moral authority to demand that a future wife have abstained from that sin. I am reminded of this:

    For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

    A woman, when faced with a demand from a man that she be a virgin, should be able to demand the same of him as well.

    And it is true that the Bible never says that a man must marry an unchaste woman (save by the few exceptions already mentioned). However, plenty of men in the bible did marry unchaste women. On the other hand, that was not preferred by those men if it could be avoided.

    The problem, as Cail notes, is that the male sex drive is really intense. Honestly, I can’t begin to express how powerful and aggravating it can be. I can only imagine how much more productive and accomplished I would be if that Need wasn’t pressing against me 24/7.

    Despite even knowing the risks, many men will continue to marry unchaste women, especially those who weren’t chaste themselves. More is required than just “No Rings for Sluts.”

  13. ” If the only men who marry are those who can find virgins, that leaves millions of men celibate, “burning” as St. Paul puts it, with the exception of the minority who are called to religious celibacy. That’s not a good situation for them as individual men, and it’s certainly not a good situation for society.”

    If you want to know what happens if enough men are forced into involuntary celibacy or have nothing to lose…they will turn to violence.

    Which is why whomever evil entity behind the curtain listening to Satan is finding ways to lower testosterone…so that enough men don’t get fed up and start moving and shaking.

  14. I have to agree with Elspeth that a man who himself fornicated in the past is a hypocrite if he demands that his wife be a virgin.

    He’s only a hypocrite if he believes his own fornication was okay, though. He could say, “Look, I sinned in this area in the past, so I know how harmful it is, and I know that it’s worse for women in some important ways. I’ve decided that the right wife for me will be a virgin, and I hope to find one who will accept me despite my past. If some don’t, that’s perfectly understandable, and I wish them well in finding men who protected their chastity as well as they did.” In that case, he’s not a hypocrite, any more than a parent who says, “Look, I did a lot of drugs when I was your age, and I can tell you from experience it’s a bad idea, so you’ll be grounded until you’re 18 if I catch you with any.”

    It’d be up to any virgins he meets to decide whether it’s unfair that he got to sow some wild oats and they didn’t.

  15. Ton

    A man who has pre marital sex is not a hypocrite for demanding his wife to be a virgin. He’s smart. And likely of higher value for making the demand.

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