A Must Read Story

A woman going by the name of Eva has found her way to Dalrock’s blog, drawn by his post Advice to a woman in her 30’s looking to marry (Warning, 1000+ comments, so it can present loading problems). She left her story there, which can be found here. It is worth reading in its entirety.

I’m late to the discussion, but I found this blog today and after reading it and all the comments, I wish I could apologize to the “beta orbiters” I had for how I treated them when I was younger. I’m 4 months into being 30, but I’ve been aware of my impending expiry date as a marriageable woman, partly because of my mother’s training. She got married around 23 to my biological father in their home country, moved to America with him and had me and my younger brother, then divorced and was able to snare another younger man (she being 32, my stepfather 29 at the time) to marry and take care of us all. I grew up envisioning that by the time I was 25 I’d find someone like my wonderful beta stepfather, not because of any sordid incestuous attraction – but because he was a great provider, worked as an educator, and he was a great leader and father). My fantasy husband and I would raise 5(!) children together. Go ahead and laugh, but I’m a hopeless romantic, a 2nd-gen immigrant with ‘old world’ tastes, and I really love and get along with kids! I thought my fantasy was definitely attainable because I’d watched my mother get the same deal with her beauty and agelessness (today she’s 55 but routinely gets mistaken for 35), plus I felt I had the ‘advantage’ of growing up Westernized, being educated, having my youth and her genes, and being much more ‘likable’ than my mother. My mother suffers from narcissism and is quite abusive, even and especially when she’s being worshiped like she demands.

I discovered that it was ‘easy’ for me to attract boys starting in middle school. My stepfather treated me like his own daughter, though, and he was very protective of my virtue – my first date was my senior prom! I was insecure because my mother was constantly belittling me (telling me I was ugly, a closet lesbian, too nerdy), but when I got to college and had to beat the male attention off with a stick, my ego ballooned. I was convinced that I was better than the betas that I used to get along well with in high school, and could get myself an alpha to marry instead of the boys who wanted to discuss Mortal Kombat and Dark Avengers all day. Yet I felt no one would ask me out but the hopelessly-optimistic betas who persisted despite the fact that my stepfather taught at the university I attended, and was around more than ever to guard my every move. I spent/wasted a lot of time flirting and less time caring about the opportunity my stepfather gave me (free tuition). I used to be studious, but dropped my scholarly interests to be one of the popular girls, and stopped taking life seriously – instead hitting up every party and social on campus, playing a game with myself to see which alpha I could get to ‘fall in love’ with me next. My stepfather had connections to help me get summer jobs, as well, and I screwed those up because I didn’t do the work. I’d avoid being at home because my parents were constantly fighting, and I didn’t want to be a housemaiden, taking care of my new 2 young stepsiblings and doing chores, basically being responsible in any way when I felt I was entitled to ‘the college experience’ and had earned it by being a jailed-up late bloomer.

My stepfather was diagnosed with terminal cancer, and it changed my whole college experience. My mother wasn’t willing to give up her job to be a housewife and look after anybody either, my brother had already moved out to escape my mother’s abuse, and I didn’t want my stepfather to have be both father and mother as he was dying, so I dropped out of college and stayed home to help in any way I could. I think my stepsiblings saw me more as a mother than their sister during that period, because I babysat, fixed their meals, made sure they caught the school bus, helped with homework, tried to keep them from understanding how badly their father was doing. My stepfather finally passed away when I was 23, and shortly after the university gave him a funeral (and my stepfather’s will went into effect), my mother kicked me out because she wanted to get married again, and I would be a tip-off to any potential suitors/suckers that she wasn’t as young as she looked. I went out into the world for the first time without ‘Dad’ to help me, and I had no job, no formal education (only some college), no skills, just my looks. I latched onto the first male who would have me, moved in with him, and gave away my virginity at age 24. Then when that guy got tired of me, it was on to another one, an alpha who knew me from college. My third live-in boyfriend raped me at age 27, and again there was another psychological shift. I wasn’t able to get a criminal conviction against the man (charges were filed but dropped by prosecution for ‘insufficient evidence’), but I’m in the middle of a civil lawsuit against him and the church I joined where I met him, since that church actively tried to cover up that he had assaulted me. I feel like ever since I lost my dad, I’ve been wandering in a haze of life where the mist keeps getting thicker as I age and wonder if I’m salvageable.

My thing is – it will sound insane to most people, but I think some my horrible experiences were necessary in some way because they’ve forced me to see that I was no ‘catch’ in my 20s, and I have to race against time if I’m going to have a shot at giving away the love I know I have in me. I realize now that I was entitled, spoiled, and insecure growing up partly because I had nothing to work for or earn on my own. I was so selfish until my father dying while my mother acted like she was being deprived of life made me see that I didn’t want to be like her, but that was where I was going to end up because I was on the path. I spent every dime I touched because I knew my parents would bail me out of trouble when I needed it, and now I’m on my own trying to fix my credit history. I used to get As in school, now I’m uneducated and working as a housekeeper to keep myself afloat, but in a way I appreciate it because it’s reinforcing the ‘old world’ teachings I had growing up that I tried to escape – that a woman should know how to keep house. I’d like to go back to school, but I’m hoping that that can be a part-time thing I’ll do from home while I raise children. I want to be a stay-at-home mother – to this day I get a lot of happiness from checking in on and visiting my younger stepsiblings and bolstering them up as much as I can, especially when my mother decides she ‘quits’ for weeks at a time and drops the children off at my apartment. I’m not suited for alpha males. It has nothing to do with my looks or that I still get mistaken for being an 18-year-old by complete strangers, but rather that I want a man of substance … if that man will have me.

A lot of comments upthread asked the woman to evaluate what she can bring to the table for a man. Hmm … debt? Working-class income? One thing that I think I have going for me is that my experiences haven’t broken me. I believe in and really try to self-improve – reading, researching, praying, etc. to get better at life. I probably do have some psychological work to do still, but I don’t think I’m resentful or angry. I’m always being complimented on my smile, if that means anything – I can’t help that I smile even when I’m talking (most of the time). I’m grateful that in spite of her faults, I had a mother who modeled hygiene, health, and feminine dress and presentation very well, and I keep myself up to look sweet without being slutty. I can cook any dish from my parents’ home country, a lot of American dishes, and I love to experiment with my own recipes. I can make clothing. I’ve learned to show that I’m a giving person and not just convince myself that I’m so, or that because I’m soft-spoken and rather shy it means I’m submissive, when my actions should show that to be the case. My N is 3, and I’m determined to keep it there until I (hopefully) marry – not to be crass, but if my sexual desires get that intense, masturbation is a lot less headache than the guilt I feel after cheating my future husband out of myself little by little. I don’t smoke, drink, do any recreational drugs, have any prescriptions to worry about, I’m 5’3″ and 115 llbs,, no illness in my family that I know of, keep myself healthy. No tattoos. I speak 3 languages. I don’t have a religious affiliation, I was raised Catholic but I think I lean more towards Judaism in my personal beliefs – I read from the Tanakh/’Old Testament’ daily but don’t believe in the writings of the New Testament? (I forget the rest of the list!)

All this goes to say that to read the comments where men trash certain women for being 30+ older unmarried really cut to my heart, but I know no one would be saying anything if there were no problems to speak of. I understand that nobody wants to be anyone’s consolation prize in marriage. It’s a huge step for a man to choose any single woman and say ‘lets do this forever’, much less to choose a woman who gave him the cold shoulder back when she thought she had ‘better options’ than commitment, security, stability, and a purpose for living and loving.

I am sure that everyone here is familiar with the story of the Prodigal Son; if not then you can read it here. The story has many themes: repentance and redemption, the power of forgiveness, a Father’s love for his child, and the importance of embracing those who went astray but have returned. But there is another lesson in the story, one that is sometimes easy to forget in the reassurance of God’s boundless love for us. That lesson is a reminder that the prodigal son lost his inheritance, and doesn’t recover it. It is lost to him. While his Father does bestow some measure of kinds and riches on him, they pale in comparison to what is gone forever. And yet, what is really gone?

The inheritance that is mentioned in Luke’s gospel is not a material inheritance, just as the father here isn’t simply a rich landowner (this is a parable, after all!). Instead, the inheritance which the younger brother squandered is the measure of contentment and happiness that we enjoy in this world as a result of living a holy life. Although it is difficult for us to see when we are younger, following our Father’s commands ensures that we keep our inheritance and avoid the real hardships in life: Guilt, Remorse, Regret and Unfulfilled Dreams. Yes, living in sin is a blast… for a while. But eventually, unless we correct ourselves, we spend all of our inheritance, that is, use up the protections from the misery resulting from sin that we were allotted in life. Some have more protection, and some less. But eventually it is all gone, and the full measure of our sin weighs down upon us. At which point, enduring the burdens of a sinful life,  some will return to their Father, and seek forgiveness. Some wiser ones return before all is squandered. Thankfully, our God is merciful and compassionate, and will forgive us our transgressions.

However, our slate is only wiped clean in our next life, not this one. While we live we must still deal with the consequences of our past actions. The knowledge of God’s forgiveness can ease these burdens for a while (like a certain robe, ring and fatted calf), but that is only temporary relief.

Eva represents an instance of a prodigal daughter, a woman who fell far and has slowly pulled herself back. She has yet to fully return to her Father, and sadly may never complete this journey. But even if she does she will not return as she left. She squandered much of her inheritance, and what is left might not be enough for what she hoped to use it for. She may never find a man who is willing to make her into his wife, and even if she does, it is doubtful that he would be anywhere near the quality of man whom she could have married 10 years before.

Her story is one that should be told to all women are who coming of age, as a lesson to be etched deep in their hearts. They need to be taught that their inheritance is their youth, their beauty, and their virtue. If they squander that inheritance, what they are left with in the end might not be enough to buy them the happiness and contentment they seek.

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36 Comments

Filed under Alpha, Alpha Widow, Attraction, Beta, Red Pill, Sex, Sexual Market Place

36 responses to “A Must Read Story

  1. If she was between 22-24, this is a woman I would…. consider and not turn down if I felt God led me there and she was Catholic. Much of that has to do with me, myself, being of the prodigal son variety.

    However, she’s in her 30’s, and thus older than many would consider.

    Tell me, who would you recommend such a prodigal daughter to? I can only think of men 40ish in age, who don’t have the ability to pull women in their 20’s yet can snag a woman in her 30’s. It’s not that I have anything against her, but that at this point she’s burned through much of what she had going for her if she’s wants a family – not many 40 year old men still do.

  2. Your thoughts echo mine Leap. I would think that late 30’s is perhaps the best she can hope for in a man. She is in a tough bind.

  3. I’m not so sure it would be so difficult for her given how many stupid men there are out there.

    Check out what this obviously overweight over 30 woman was able to accomplish, along with her outrageous list of checklist demands:

    Amy Webb: How I hacked online dating

  4. Ton

    The story rings false to me, like some beta chumps revenge porn.

  5. “At which point, enduring the burdens of a sinful life, some will return to their Father, and seek forgiveness. Some wiser ones return before all is squandered. Thankfully, our God is merciful and compassionate, and will forgive us our transgressions.”

    Which is its own reward. The burdens of sin are very heavy…and to get rid of those is a way to leading a better life. I’d say a person that does that is in much better shape than a person doubling down on a sinful lifestyle. The lingering effects of the previous sin may be a way to teach others or be a penance…but they don’t have to be an extra burden.

    Like the Rolling Stones song…you can’t always get what you want…but you might find you get what you need.

  6. Elspeth

    If Eva is for real, I will say what I always say. She’ll find a husband, probably one around her own age in the next couple of years, and if she really has grown the way she says she has, she’ll be fine.

    The difference between men in the real world and in the sphere where we have these conversations is pretty stark, especially in the church.

    Part of that is because so many of them have checkered pasts themselves, and they have been thoroughly indoctrinated in the secular religion of equality. They don’t see her sins as any more grievous than their own.

    I’m not excusing her behavior or opining about her qualifications one way or the other. I’m simply pointing out that if she is still attractive, her prospects are not as great as if she were 25, but they are far from nonexistent.

  7. deti

    Eva:

    I’ll take what you say at face value. I read your comment here and at Dalrock’s.

    If you really do have an N of 3, that’s not a dealbreaker for most men, I would guess. It is not optimal, but it’s not terrible either. I have my doubts about whether that’s really true for reasons beyond the scope of Donal’s post and about which are not appropriate for public speculation.

    I agree with Elspeth that if you are as described you’ll likely find a man willing to marry you. It’s just not true that women make it to 30 unmarried and become spinsters with no chance of marrying. Women with far, far worse pasts that you describe are still marrying – it’s just that the men they’re marrying don’t have nearly the attractiveness of the men they used to have sex with and/or pine for as younger women.

    If you’re looking for advice on how to attract a man, let me offer this:

    1. Take a good, long, hard look at what you have to offer. Are you pretty? Are you reasonably thin? Can you cook? Are you nice and pleasant to be around? You will have to offer more than just your body. If you want to marry, sex appeal alone is not going to cut it.

    2. Get realistic. The hot alpha men you used to command attention from are not going to marry you. You’re too old, and besides, most of them aren’t going to marry anyone anyway. Those who do marry will marry hotter women. As Donal says above, you will have to accept the painful realization that you will not be able to marry as well now as you could have when you were in your early 20s.

    3. Recalibrate where you meet men. You are prime pump and dump fodder if you confine yourself to the bars and clubs. Despite what you might hear from others, church is not the best place for men and women to meet each other. Join a club or a group to meet men with common interests.

    4. Follow the four rules, in this order:

    a. Be pretty.
    b. Don’t get fat.
    c. Be nice.
    d. Be available

    5. Go for men for whom you feel a strong sexual attraction and to whom you could submit. Marriages work best when the wife is strongly sexually attracted to the husband.

    6. Despite what the medical community and women’s magazines say, you don’t have many fertile years left. Assuming you’re in decent health and shape, you’ll be able to have one, at most two children.

    7. You have no time to waste. The youngest you’ll be when you marry is 31, realistically.

  8. deti

    “The difference between men in the real world and in the sphere where we have these conversations is pretty stark, especially in the church.

    “Part of that is because so many of them have checkered pasts themselves, and they have been thoroughly indoctrinated in the secular religion of equality. They don’t see her sins as any more grievous than their own.”

    Elspeth, if by this you mean that the attitudes and approaches to life by men in the “real world” is more naïve, optimistic and pollyannaish; while men in the ‘sphere is more jaded and cynical, then I agree.

    The danger is simply that Eva will not be attracted to most of the marriageable men she meets; because most of them aren’t sexually attractive. They don’t know anything about attraction themselves; they don’t know how to present themselves in their best light; and many of them will be overjoyed at a reasonably attractive 30 year old woman showing any interest at all in them. If Eva marries one of these men, she won’t really be attracted to him in the first place; or whatever attraction she has for him in the beginning will wane. Either way the marriage is threatened.

    She needs to be very careful not to let baby rabies overtake her. At this point she is probably hearing her bio-clock roaring in her ears like a freight train.

    On the flip side, the men she’ll be drawn to will be few and far between; and those few men will not be available to her for marriage because either (1) they’re not going to marry anyone; or (2) she isn’t young enough or hot enough.

  9. I agree that she shouldn’t have much trouble finding a husband, if she is as advertised. There are plenty of divorced men in the 35-45 range who would like to have kids — or more kids that they can see more than every other weekend, at least. I assume with a few live-in relationships under her belt, she’s not holding out for a never-married man, even though she was technically never married herself. If she were Catholic and lived in my town, there’s nothing in her description that would keep me from giving her a look.

    Deti covered the basics well, so I’ll just add a couple more subtle things that jumped out at me:

    It’s okay to say that you learned from your horrible mistakes of the past. It’s not okay to say that they were necessary or good because you learned from them. It’s a subtle thing, and maybe it bothers me more than most, but I hate it when people with major issues — like a Hollywood actor who’s been in rehab, divorced three times, and had one kid commit suicide — say they have no regrets because they’re happy about how things turned out. You can be glad and proud about where you are now, while still regretting the past. I know you do regret the past, because you said so up front, so just be careful how you present that. A guy doesn’t want to hear between the lines, “I’ve learned that sometimes doing the wrong thing pays off for me later.”

    I don’t know what “My third live-in boyfriend raped me at age 27” means, and I don’t think most other men will either. If you were living with him, presumably you were having sex, so….? It’d be easy to interpret this as similar to so-called “marital rape,” and take away the message that sex with you could be risky. I’m not accusing you of anything; just saying that if you’re going to tell guys that, make sure you explain what you mean by it, and how a man who married you wouldn’t have to worry about finding himself in the same position.

    Good luck, but with N=3, 115 pounds, no other-man’s-spawn, no drug habits, and no tattoos, I don’t think you’ll really need it. Those things alone put you ahead of 99% of the single female population in your age range.

  10. The danger is simply that Eva will not be attracted to most of the marriageable men she meets; because most of them aren’t sexually attractive. — Deti

    That’s why I appreciate her story so much. She admits that there were men available when she was younger, so this isn’t the “It’s so hard for Christian girls to find a good man” lament that we hear so often. The men were there; she was just too busy having fun and enjoying the attention to try to get a rope on one. Now they’re probably not flocking around the way they used to, but I’d bet even that is partly her perception. If she’s as she describes, and she doesn’t have some enormous snaggletooth or powerful body odor that she forgot to mention, there are men interested in her. The “115 pounds” alone would make her one of the shapeliest girls in most churches or neighborhoods. If she’s not aware of any men checking her out, that probably means she needs to re-calibrate her sensors, because they got used to filtering for the hot alphas when she was younger. She’ll have to adjust them so she can see that “man of substance” she wants now.

  11. Elspeth

    Elspeth, if by this you mean that the attitudes and approaches to life by men in the “real world” is more naïve, optimistic and pollyannaish; while men in the ‘sphere is more jaded and cynical, then I agree.

    Yes, this is what I meant.

  12. I think that everyone is right that “Eva” does stand a good chance of finding someone willing to marry her. As Elspeth and Deti pointed out, her flaws and failings won’t be noticeable or a big deal to a lot of men out there.

    Unfortunately for her, this doesn’t mean she won’t feel the consequences of her actions. She will probably marry below what she could have. She will probably have a more difficult time being attracted to most men, including the man she marries. All in all, her life will almost certainly not be as content and happy as it would if she hadn’t chosen poorly.

  13. She will probably marry below what she could have.

    Maybe so, but if she’s happy with him, that’s all that really matters. That may speak to your question the other day about whether a girl should know her SMV. If knowing too much about it will cause her to sit around moping because she could have gotten a guy a point higher, then it’s probably best that she not know.

    We all make choices in life, and each one closes other doors. I might be making more money if I hadn’t dropped out of college. I might have married a hot cheerleader if I hadn’t been too shy to ask her out in high school. So it goes. It’d be a pretty lucky person who couldn’t look back and see any regrets or missed opportunities.

  14. Ton

    If her story is legit, I’m not sure any part of her story is deal breaker. She will have to settle for a man lower down the food chain then her younger self could have pulled but….

    Men generally don’t care about a lack of school, a low N count matters a lot to some men (probbaly a lot fewer then the manosphere believes). Her job is no big deal either way.

    Tending to her dying father is hardcore and I’d bet good money it will elevate her to many marriage minded men. Proves a good deal of positive qualities. Same for caring for her siblings. And her cooking. Is she frugal? She says she smiles a lot. There is a lot going for her really.

    If what she says about herself is ture, she could move to Ft Bragg on Monday and be married by the new year.

    A man without a checkered past probably isn’t much good at being a man.

  15. jack

    Too little, too late.

    Consider a life of celibacy, and Christian sacrifice, perhaps helping the poor.

    Some things can’t be fixed.

  16. “The story rings false to me, like some beta chumps revenge porn.”

    I agree. It’s either that, or she’s a feminist troll, which is probably more likely. Maybe she’s one of the disciples of Slutting Up Smart.

  17. Deep Strength

    I agree with hoellenhund2 that it’s likely a troll. See this post with analysis:

    http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/04/26/advice-to-a-single-woman-in-her-30s-looking-to-marry/#comment-95700

    I take back what I said about it potentially being a man. It’s 99% a feminist troll familiar with the manosphere because of usage of such terms.

  18. Men generally don’t care about a lack of school, a low N count matters a lot to some men (probbaly a lot fewer then the manosphere believes). Her job is no big deal either way.

    Just to show how much that’s true: I read the whole thing two or three times looking for red flags, and never noticed her educational level or what job she holds. My eyes just skimmed over those things as so much fluff, looking for the important stuff: N, kids, weight, religion, so on. Her degree or lack thereof is of less interest to me than the length of her hair.

    The story may be complete fiction, of course; we have no way to know. Regardless of that, it’s a useful piece to discuss, because it helps us point out what an older girl who wants to fix her life and get married should focus on, and how she should present herself. It also shows the difference between, “Ok, I’m ready for marriage now, where are the men?” and, “I screwed up when I was younger, but can I get a second chance?”

  19. What would a feminist troll hope to prove by such a post? That men aren’t ogres after all? That we do think redemption is possible after repentance? That we’re not all insisting on a virgin doormat for a wife? That a girl who keeps herself fit and dresses feminine and has some nurturing instincts can easily get a man even if she has some flaws and some serious mistakes in her past?

    I’m not sure why a feminist would want to troll for such comments, since they contradict the picture feminists try to paint of the manosphere and traditionally-inclined men.

  20. Deep Strength

    @ Cail

    Why do commeters like the one formerly known as T and “Guest” keep talking on SSM’s even though they know we don’t agree with them on any matters? Most feminists come with either sob stories or shaming tactics and it’s all the same story everywhere you go.

    I would suspect lots of reasons. For validation. For drama. For pity. The emotional high of arguing. To prove NAWALT.

    Who knows what in particular it was in this case.

  21. @ Ton

    You raise good points. There really are two different perspectives here:

    The average or normal perspective, under which this woman isn’t terribly much different from most women out there, and thus a good candidate for marriage

    And the Red Pill or manosphere perspective, where her bio is full of red flags that would warn away men who recognize the dangers. Leap and I instantly went into this mode of thinking without realizing it. And it matters a lot, because with the Red Pill factored in this woman’s MMP is much lower than without that perspective.

    Also, a clarification of the inheritance:

    Perhaps another way to think of it as a currency which you can spend to buy options in life. This woman hasn’t spent all of her currency, she still has options available to her. But she has less now than she used to.

    Assuming this isn’t a feminist troll, of course.

  22. “Leap and I instantly went into this mode of thinking without realizing it. And it matters a lot, because with the Red Pill factored in this woman’s MMP is much lower than without that perspective.”

    Very much so. She’s almost custom made for the 35-40 year old Christian man who hasn’t had kids yet but wants to. I doubt he’d be the most attractive, but he’d likely have a solid economic foundation and a very dear love of God, with room for a woman in his life. The problem will be if she’s sufficiently attracted to him and can remain so. If not, it’ll just end in divorce and sin

    And that’s the problem with women of her past, at any age. It doesn’t take all that many men in your past, but being single for any reason above the age of 25 screams at me that something is wrong; while having a number count more than 3 under that screams that she hasn’t cultivated the amount of right decision making, modesty, and loyalty to her man that I want in a wife.

    Even with all this, I’ll be honest in that I wouldn’t be able to tell you if I would consider a younger version of this woman for a marriage potential if it hadn’t been for my own past and conversion to Catholicism. I might not be a unique or special case, but I’m certainly not the majority of even red pill men in my past, present, and future plans.

    And with all that, she’d still simply get an open consideration, which isn’t exactly saying much.

  23. “being single for any reason above the age of 25 screams at me that something is wrong”

    Just want to point out that this is due to the red pill perspective regarding a desire for religious marriage. For the normal man, I would be surprised if he had any hesitation at all. For the red pill atheist, it’s a chance that he’d marry her, but he might just sleep with her or go for a long term relationship.

    She better vet the next man carefully. A wrong choice could waste years of her life and lose her last chance if he’s not an honest man about his intentions.

  24. @ Deep Strength

    You are entirely correct. I don’t bet, but if I did, I’d be willing to wager quite a bit of money that Eva is a feminist troll. Check out her latest comments on Dalrock’s blog…they always give themselves away eventually.

    It used to take me a long time to spot them, but now I’m fairly adept at it. There has been a sharp uptick recently in feminists engaging the manosphere and female anti-feminist bloggers in this way. Just by way of example, you all may have noticed a new poster at my place going by the handle of Calliso. Warning bells were going off in my head about her from the get-go, but I’ve let her keep posting until today. I finally decided to check her out a bit; it took me less than five minutes to locate the left-wing feminist site she came from – she even posts there under the same handle!

    Eva has all the same feminist troll tells.

  25. Ton

    My default setting is, any woman on the net isn’t. The more she displays a higher level of thought, remorse for past actions in this case, the less likely she is to be woman.

  26. She could also have a side agenda of fishing for a man. She offered private contact with me as apparently she picked up on my proclivity to white knight. Although I do not trust her, I treated her with dignity. Perhaps part of her story is true????

  27. Eva

    @vascularity777 Why are you bearing false witness against me?? You asked me details about my story, I explained why it was best not to air anything more on the forum, I asked to be able to answer your questions in private, you declined, the end. Why do you have to make it seem like I was trying to pick you up? From a forum where 99% cant stand me??

    I was searching for a way to get my story erased from the Net, and I found that it was pingbacked here – not that anyone should believe me or my motives. I’ll leave you all alone if you would kindly agree to do the same for me. I find a lot of the readers to be unnecessarily cruel over at Dalrock, its spilling over here behind my back and God only knows where else, and I havent done anything to the manosphere to be treated as spectacle. If nobody believes Im for real, why mistreat instead of just ignoring me?

    To DonalGraeme: I apologize if this counts as trolling your blog. I wont be returning here or at Dalrocks to upset anyone further.

  28. Pics or she didn’t happen.

    Too many have devoted way too much time to a figment of their imaginations.

  29. Elspeth

    @ Caldo:

    Aren’t we feeling cutting today?

  30. Pingback: A Couple of Quick Questions | Donal Graeme

  31. Why do commeters like the one formerly known as T and “Guest” keep talking on SSM’s even though they know we don’t agree with them on any matters?

    The purpose of any troll is to disrupt and derail a conversation that he doesn’t like, and/or to get a lot of attention for himself. T used to do it by acting confused and shifting the goalposts. Guest does it by being insulting. But it’s obvious after a few comments what their goal is.

    Eva’s letter, on the other hand, didn’t derail the conversation at all; it enhanced it. It gave us a chance to apply the theoretical stuff we discuss about women’s SMV/MMV to a specific case, to give women seeking marriage after a spotty past an idea what their chances really are. The responses showed that the anti-manosphere criticisms — that we hate women, for instance — are wrong.

    So if it was a troll, it was a particularly poor attempt, since it had the opposite effect that a troll would be going for.

  32. Having said that, yes, Eva could be a fiction (I haven’t paid attention to her other comments, which would surely shed light on her). But there are women out there like she describes, so it’s still useful to discuss an example, even a fictional one, the same way we might mentioned Elizabeth Bennett and Mr. Darcy to make a point about something. If “Eva” were openly presented as a character from a book, she’d still be a useful discussion topic.

  33. Hungarian Girl

    I realize this post is very old, but I found it on the internets. The reactions in the comments are really something. Who on earth would write that whole story out just to troll–speaking as another women raised by Eastern European parents, nothing about Eva’s story strikes me as demonstrably false. We’re raised to value femininity in a way I’ve found American people (women AND men) simply don’t, and the comments here sadly reflect that.

    I also know many women from our home country who behave like Eva’s mother–they’re able to pass for younger, know how to attract men, and use it for their advantage instead of being chaste, committing to a good man, and raising a family. The lure of materialism is very strong, its rewards perceived as greater than a LTR with all its stresses. The idea that some women could have all the power of their femininity and not want to use it for their personal advantage isn’t a fiction; it’s a sign of how the person was raised.

    Eva withholds her power out of both ignorance and respect to her dead father, who taught her to be chaste. She’s made the same mistake many a girl raised this way does–she assumed that men would protect her, the way her father did, “step up” for her and not take advantage. Eva’s problem is that she is working backwards–she thinks if she shows up as a good woman, the man she chooses to let in her life will behave as a good man. Of course, men have their own agenda and it doesn’t involve taking care of a woman the way her father did.

    Eva needs to wise up–first of all, most modern men will never understand what she brings to the table. They are too used to women competing with them and do not understand what she brings to the table. Most American men don’t need anyone to cook for them, when they eat out; clean their homes, because they’re renting; or care for them, as most were raised and emasculated by single mothers. She is at a severe risk of “mothering” men who don’t deserve it in a misguided effort to prove her femininity. Eva needs to take a step back and let men come to her. There is a reason Donald Trump keeps marrying Eastern European beauty queens: we know and accept the male/female division of labor, but it takes a special, almost narcissistic male personality to accept it as something he deserves without resentment. The right man will come to you and explain exactly how he wants you to fit in his life–you better be ready to to explain to him exactly what you want and walk away if he won’t give it to you.

    What I find disturbing is the prevalent idea that she must be trolling, as though women can’t suffer from low self-esteem. Eva’s post reeks of it. Obviously, the red pill blogosphere isn’t brimming with chivalry (although in my opinion, if you took these idea to their logical conclusions, it would be) but even here, granted a corner of men with much higher standards and values than the PUA community, men began by saying they would give Eva a chance. She is no unicorn, but she simply isn’t guilty of the sins most modern American women make–she doesn’t have a high n-count, she desires a relationship, she is naturally submissive. Eva’s problem is not realizing which SMV bracket she’s in–the idea that, therefore, she must be a troll, not only totally derailed the discussion, but says a lot more about the male posters and the type of women they’re attracted to than anything about Eva.

    Unfortunately, and I’d like to offer this as food for thought to the trolls trolling Eva–it’s very difficult to have high self-esteem when you do everything “right” but still have poor luck with the opposite sex, and it creates a very lonely feeling when you follow your values but end up getting victimized for it. Our society is simply set up so that selfish people appear to get ahead–that goes for Chads sleeping with hundreds of women, and the slutty girls having “fun.” Eva is the equivalent of the beta male looking on confused, and just because you can’t imagine a woman sharing that experience with you, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. In fact, most women are profoundly insecure. The ones who are open about it–like Eva–haven’t learned the lesson that YOU perceive all women to be adept at–hiding their feelings and vulnerabilities.

    The idea that a beautiful woman feeling insecure is less likely than a feminist troll writing several pages about a made-up life problem says a lot more about the state of American men and where they get their validation (hint: it’s from other people, and sex; therefore it’s impossible to imagine that a beautiful women could struggle in this area, [bc by this perception, beautiful women hold all of the ability to validate, and wouldn’t need any themselves]) than it does about the woman. Eva, take the hint–value yourself, and walk away from men who can’t.

  34. Thank you for your comment. It has inspired me to write another post.

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