Setting a Matter to Rest

Just in case anyone was curious, no, this is not me.

[As a side note, Prince Amukamara appears to be a perfect example of a Righteous Alpha. Just think of how high his LAMPS values must be. He seems to be decently good looking, is in great physical shape, must make a decent chunk of money every year, and has a very high status position as a NFL player (for the Jets, true, but still, professional football). The only question surrounds his Power value; the article gives some hints of Beta behavior but its difficult to be sure (and I would have to think he has to be fairly confident in himself considering hi station in life). So you just know that this guy has to have been receiving a huge amount of female attention. In fact, he is at least a male 9 in terms of SMV value. His remaining celibate (for now) is clearly a matter of personal choice based on his faith, and not circumstance. So to those who say that there aren’t male virgins out there, or at least ones who actually choose to stay that way until marriage, I offer this exhibit into evidence.]

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46 Comments

Filed under Alpha, Christianity, LAMPS, Sex

46 responses to “Setting a Matter to Rest

  1. So you just know that this guy has to have been receiving a huge amount of female attention. In fact, he is at least a male 9 in terms of SMV value. His remaining celibate (for now) is clearly a matter of personal choice based on his faith, and not circumstance. So to those who say that there aren’t male virgins out there, or at least ones who actually choose to stay that way until marriage, I offer this exhibit into evidence.]

    I married a hot male Christian virgin, and I know quiet a few hot male Christian virgins still on the market. The whole “hot male Christian virgins don’t exist” thing always struck me as a myth propagated by Christian women to justify having premarital sex with the nominal Christian/non-Christian men that they end up marrying. (i.e. if datable virgin Christian men don’t exist, than waiting until marriage or pursuing single men from church is pointless)

    & although I’ve been called a troll in the past for saying this – I suspect many Christian women these days are actually disgusted by men who display Christian morals and intentionally turn down attractive men that display said values. That’s just the only explanation that makes sense to me. I mean, all the times I’ve seen hot well employed Christian men from church nuclear rejected by women that are prolly at least 2 points below them in SMP rankings (- these men weren’t looking for perfect supermodels i.e. the #1 complaint about single Christian men from church) – and than said women proceed to get knocked up by a bad boy non-Christian (whom they marry in a quickie ceremony) and justify their predicament by claiming Jesus led them to their husband. It’s a pretty standard script in most large congregations.

  2. I have a feeling the discrepancy betweenvalue as well as the high standard of being a male virgin made those women feel judged and inadequate. A main hurdle for Christian men is alleviating the feeling enough for attraction to grow

  3. I suspect many Christian women these days are actually disgusted by men who display Christian morals and intentionally turn down attractive men that display said values.

    You should probably put quotes around the first “Christian” in that sentence. Calling yourself something doesn’t make you that thing.

  4. I suspect many Christian women these days are actually disgusted by men who display Christian morals and intentionally turn down attractive men that display said values.

    I’ve talked about that too: frequently a good church girl will ignore the good guys at church and go find an unchurched or fallen-away bad boy. It gives her a missionary purpose which makes her look good at church when she drags him along, and she gets to be the leader of their spiritual life. I don’t think this girl is typically “disgusted” by the “Christian morals” of the men she doesn’t see at church; mostly she just doesn’t see them because they’re too busy being nice and trying to show provider traits to be attractive. Also, since being a heathen makes him a rule-breaker and risk-taker by definition, that gives him some built-in attraction that he wouldn’t have as a fellow church-goer.

    It’s not so much that she’s not being Christian — she honestly does want to “save” the alpha bad boy — she’s just not being very smart. She’s not asking older women for advice, or thinking about the low odds of converting such a guy, or considering why she finds him attractive and what that might say about their likely future together. She’s doing what feels right, because she’s able to rationalize it in virtuous-sounding terms at first.

    (It’s not trolling to say it once in a while; I’ve never been accused of trolling for saying the above. It becomes trolling when you keep saying it over and over and somehow pulling every conversation back to your personal hobby-horse.)

  5. I don’t think this girl is typically “disgusted” by the “Christian morals” of the men she doesn’t see at church; mostly she just doesn’t see them because they’re too busy being nice and trying to show provider traits to be attractive. Also, since being a heathen makes him a rule-breaker and risk-taker by definition, that gives him some built-in attraction that he wouldn’t have as a fellow church-goer.

    I don’t fully agree. I often suspected the Christian women who only dated non-Christian guys, did so specifically because they did not want to get married at the time, but wanted a relationship where they could fool around. “I was dating a non-Christian man who led me into sin” is a pretty decent excuse.

    Also, I don’t think many Christian women genuinely want a man with good morals, because that means they would have to work on their own behavior. Also, it would deprive them of the opportunity to be a “spiritual leader” – you know, the way church ladies often brag about leading their husband away from “sin” and act all morally superior.

    she just doesn’t see them because they’re too busy being nice and trying to show provider traits to be attractive

    You do realize this sentence proves my point? There’s nothing wrong with nice men who show provider traits. That’s what normal Christian women would want. A nice provider – a man that isn’t going to beat her, or become a deadbeat father. HOWEVER; the fact that said behavior disgusts and repels modern American Christian women is a bit odd…no?

    It’s not trolling to say it once in a while; I’ve never been accused of trolling for saying the above.

    I get accused of trolling because good luck trying to call Christian women out on their cr@p. God forbid I go against Team Woman and suggest “hey maybe virgin Christian men aren’t icky losers”. You do realize, when men aren’t around, that’s exactly what American Christian women often do – make fun of the men from their church? “So and so is such a loser, I can’t beleive he’s going on a six month mission to Zambia…”

  6. @ Butterfly: I partly agree, partly disagree.

    To take your first point a bit further, modern women of any faith (or lack thereof) are led fully by her hypergamic impulses: Hold out for the BEST.

    A serious male Christian means business. He’s not the kind of guy with whom she can just “explore the field”. He’s looking for marriage.

    This means that his very existence is a non-verbal “put up or shut up”. She’s got to decide right away if she’s “serious” about him. Since she’s probably in “exploring my options” mode, and he probably has a flaw of some sort that some other guy somewhere might not have, her instinct will probably be to NEXT him. After all, if she dates him (and she’s only 22 with so much of her life ahead of her), that may well be it.

    That’s not to say that the serious Christian can’t get her, it’s just that she has more reason to disqualify him right off the bat instead of give it more time.

    “There’s nothing wrong with nice men who show provider traits. That’s what normal Christian women would want. A nice provider – a man that isn’t going to beat her, or become a deadbeat father. HOWEVER; the fact that said behavior disgusts and repels modern American Christian women is a bit odd…no?”

    The not beating part, maybe. However, “nice” is neither a trait they want nor one they should want. Christian women are WOMEN, and as such, they want MEN, men who excite them, that give her a sense of adventure.

    Are reliability traits under-appreciated? YES. Should women want to get beaten up? NO. However, I think that Christian males would do far better by themselves and by their women to recognize that in an instinct-driven society such as ours it’s far more effective to work within that reality than to hope it changes.

    Maybe Christian men should be favored over the badboys, but they aren’t. Women have a lot of growing up to do, but I’m not waiting for that to happen. I’m holding to my beliefs in such a way as to use them to my socio-sexual advantage, and other men should do likewise.

  7. To further elaborate:

    I am not saying all cases of Christian women who date non-Christian men are due to having selfish ulterior motives, or that non-Christian men are incapable of possessing morals or cannot raise their children to be upstanding Christians.

    It’s just I speak as the result of a Catholic woman who fell and love and married a wonderful non-Catholic man, specifically a Japanese Shinto-Buddhist. From what I understand my folks waited until marriage (although their engagement was quite short) and they certainly tried their best to raise me and my sister to be a good Catholics with strong morals. However; I’d be lying if I said being raised in a mix-faith household had no effect on my ability to beleive in Christ (for a multitude of reasons I rather not go into here due to a desire to remain on-topic).

    If a Christian woman was serious about her faith, she’d at least be aware of the dangers caused by “disparity of cult” and not frivolously dismiss every decent Christian bachelor that crosses her path.

  8. BF,

    No, my sentence doesn’t prove your point. I said a typical Christian girl doesn’t see the nice Christian beta provider, not that she’s disgusted by him. Now, if he starts following her around and asking her out and buying her stuff, she’s going to be disgusted, but that’ll be because of his lickspittle behavior, not because of his Christianity or his provider traits. Those are not the same things, unless you’re arguing that a man can’t be both masculine and Christian.

    I’ve talked to a woman who was singing the no-good-men-at-church lament. Some guys she just wasn’t thinking of — as I said, they were invisible to her. But the ones she thought of and turned her nose up at, I had to admit, struck even me as unacceptable. Nice guys, maybe, but I couldn’t imagine a woman wanting to kiss them. She wasn’t demanding extreme tingles, but I think it’s fair for both man and woman to want some physical attraction.

    I get accused of trolling because good luck trying to call Christian women out on their cr@p.

    If that’s what you’re trying to do, you may want to try a different method. Here’s how it looks to me, after months of reading your comments on multiple blogs: You’re very angry that you maintained your virginity before marriage when you could have been having lots of sex like all the other women were, and you get no credit for it. Worse than no credit — the women who were fornicating actually are scornful of your restraint, and would treat you better if you’d been slutting it up like they were.

    It seems clear by now that belated praise from other blog commenters isn’t what you crave, so I’m not sure what you expect to get out of posting the same lament for the hundredth time. Will it ever be enough that you saved yourself for your husband in obedience to Christ, regardless of whether any other woman ever pats you on the back?

  9. Thanks for this post Donalgraeme. I don’t think it is shameful if a man is a virgin, actually I would prefer to marry one over a non-virgin. Sometimes I need a reminder that there are good, decent, Christian men still…
    Gives me hope 🙂

  10. It seems clear by now that belated praise from other blog commenters isn’t what you crave, so I’m not sure what you expect to get out of posting the same lament for the hundredth time. Will it ever be enough that you saved yourself for your husband in obedience to Christ, regardless of whether any other woman ever pats you on the back?

    Cail, I do not agree with your view of me but instead of arguing with you and leading this thread off-topic I’ll just quickly state my general motives for commenting on the blogosphere, to clear up any misunderstandings:

    A few years ago I lost faith in God due to Christians constantly telling me that by following the gospel, I was somehow in the wrong. I was sick of being told to sin in the name of Christ. My loss of faith (which I never fully recovered from) led to feelings of bitterness and anger at God, due to feeling like he just didn’t care about the heresies being taught in his name, and the impact said heresies had on my faith.

    I identify with men on the blogosphere because they at least acknowledge that there’s something wrong with what is being taught in modern American churches, specifically concerning its doctrines on marriage and sex. When I finish recovering from my stillbirth my husband and I would like to try to have children again. I worry about raising my future children as Christians because I intend to raise them to follow the gospel, and, well, that sort-of behavior doesn’t go over well with most modern churches. Will my future sons be pariahs in church, for having strong morals?

  11. Elspeth

    For the record, Butterfly Flower, I am not interested in getting into a long protracted debate with you about this, but I would like to address your points about being called a troll first before I go further.

    The reason you get attacked is normally because you attack individual women even though you have no knowledge of their situation, and you constantly berate “Christian women” as a group as if the very term is repulsive to you.

    As for the dynamics at play when churched women marry or date unchurched men. I can only speak for myself here. I have long ago put away the sackcloth and ashes (as has my husband), and after 19 years and 5 children, I cannot be made to feel shame for something that we have both long repented of.

    That said, what I found in the church of my youth is that many of the so-called chaste virgin men were not all that chaste. thinking I was safe with one, I had to literally fight him off of me. I was 16 years old. Thankfuly the realization of how he was behaving stopped him in is tracks. That would have been one hell of a first time otherwise.

    Another played the “I’m a good Christian boy card” only to be found wanting in the chastity department as well. In other words, there aren’t that many more principally chaste men in the church than women.

    By the time I was 20, leaving home and heading out on my own, I was still a church goer, but my faith wasn’t all that deep. Further, I was raised by a very strong, confident, hard man of a father. The only other Christian young man to pursue me before I met my unbeliever husband was nice, fairly handsome, but soft as butter. We would have both been utterly miserable had we married.

    And yes, in the end I gave myself to a man who was unchurched, raised outside the faith for the most part (they were sort of cultural Christians). He actually called me to a higher level of integrity, honesty, and hard work than any man I had ever met before in my life other than my father. He just didn’t have a problem with premarital sex, which should have been a problem for me, a lifelong church girl, but it wasn’t.

    It is simply not true that every woman who marries outside the faith does so because she has a negative attitude towards Christian men or chastity. It is often because (as women are prone to doing), she followed her tingles and checked her faith and common sense at the door.

    Dating and sleeping with a string of heathens is wholly different thing.

  12. Elspeth

    As for the “provider traits”, my husband had a legendary temper in his part of “the hood”, but was also a hard worker, working 2 jobs at the age of 20, one an entry level into his very good career now.

    Yes, he hung with a terrible crowd on the weekends. Yes, he was and is as hard as steel (I love that about him), and he had his share of girlfriends, but the idea that a guy who is strong, confident, no nonsense, and good with women is automatically a deadbeat is just as offensive to me as the idea that chaste virgin men are losers.

    My father, in the years after he was widowed, dated a lot (mostly younger women and eventually married a much younger woman). He was a very hard worker and excellent provider for his family.

    Not all “alphas” are deadbeats.

  13. If a Christian woman was serious about her faith, she’d at least be aware of the dangers caused by “disparity of cult” and not frivolously dismiss every decent Christian bachelor that crosses her path.

    Absolutely. I don’t think anyone will argue with the claim that many people calling themselves Christians are not very serious about their faith.

    But that doesn’t mean that a woman who is serious about her faith is going to be attracted to the single men at her church. Especially as we get older, the most attractive people do tend to get snapped up, and the most virtuous, marriage-oriented ones tend to stay that way. So when you’re looking at the crowd of single 30-45-year-olds in a church — and I say this as a member of that crowd — you’re not looking at the cream of the crop. Sure, there may be some diamonds in the rough who were late bloomers, some true conversion stories, some divorced folks who are good people who chose badly the first time. But every unmarried person there, man or woman, is single for a reason, and sometimes that reason is poor eligibility.

    This idea you have that churches are loaded with “hot,” eligible, truly Christian men is just not reality, and could only come from a woman who already snapped up her hot guy and can judge the rest through rose-colored glasses, like a mother asking her daughter what’s wrong with this or that “nice boy.” I might argue that there are more eligible single men than single women, but both are pretty scarce.

  14. The reason you get attacked is normally because you attack individual women even though you have no knowledge of their situation, and you constantly berate “Christian women” as a group as if the very term is repulsive to you.

    It became repulsive to me solely due to my experiences with American Christian women. It wasn’t like I woke out of bed one morning and decided to hate American Christian women for the evulz. (In my defense a recent study has showed over 80% of American Christians have never even read a Bible. So quite frankly we can debate if most people in American who identify as Christians are even Christians)

    That said, what I found in the church of my youth is that many of the so-called chaste virgin men were not all that chaste. thinking I was safe with one, I had to literally fight him off of me. I was 16 years old. Thankfuly the realization of how he was behaving stopped him in is tracks. That would have been one hell of a first time otherwise.

    You judge me for negatively generalizing American Christian women, than proceed to negatively generalize American Christian men.

    If I didn’t know any better I’d suspect you were some-kind of deadpan satire of American Christian women because that’s the vibe your comments tend to give off. Surely a genuine person wouldn’t be that contradictory?

  15. Will my future sons be pariahs in church, for having strong morals?

    Pariahs, no. But will they be mocked? Absolutely. Will some girls think less of them because they aren’t “aggressive” enough? Certainly. Will there be times that they wonder what the point of it all is? Quite possibly. And yes, these attacks will come even at church, from other believing Christians, because we’re all sinful and we all fail.

    But that’s just part of the deal. We were promised such treatment in Luke 6:22: “Blessed shall you be when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake,” not to mention many other places in scripture.

    If no one’s prodding at you, trying to get you to abandon your morals and give in to temptation, that’s probably when you should worry most.

  16. I suspect that everyone is right to a certain degree. Some “Christian” women do just as BF suggests, and look outside the faith in order to provide an excuse. Given just how prevalent the attitude that women are “taken advantage of” by bad boy men is in most Churches,

    Cail is also correct that most Christian women won’t even see the majority of Christian men around them (chaste or not), if they are “nice men.” Sunshine Mary’s old post about shadows coming into focus is highly apropos. Women, because of their hypergamy, have to be trained to see most men.

    Martel’s comment is spot on as far as I can tell.

    Lovely, I understand what you are saying. There seems to be this weird divide going on: churches seem to only have single chaste men or single chaste women. Part of this might be because those with both won’t find them single for long, but I think there is more to it than that. I just can’t figure out what else might the cause for the huge discrepancy in experiences that some people face.

    @ Elspeth

    It is simply not true that every woman who marries outside the faith does so because she has a negative attitude towards Christian men or chastity. It is often because (as women are prone to doing), she followed her tingles and checked her faith and common sense at the door.

    Dating and sleeping with a string of heathens is wholly different thing.

    I hate to say it Elspeth, but I am calling BS on your last statement. It is exactly the same thing: the woman leaving her faith at the door. How it expresses itself might be the somewhat different, but functionally it is the same character flaw/sin.

  17. Elspeth

    You fail to read. And I am not backing down from my statement. The notion that most all Christian men in the church are chaste as a matter of principle while all the women are whores or “born again virgins” is simply not true, BF. I wonder how many Christian churches you’ve been to or how many Christian men besides your husband you’ve encountered outside the manosphere.

    You conveniently ignore the fact that I mentioned one good Christiah man after mentioning two not so good Christian men. I was quite balanced.

    Sweetie, you are very, very naive if you think that the men in the churches aren’t just as immoral as the women. There is a very precious remnant of righteous people in the churches, and the number is few, whether we’re talking about men or women.

    I say this as one who as been in and around the American evangelical church and its congregants all of my years of life. I’m twice as old as you are. I think I know the landscape far, far better than you ever will.

    Gosh, I get sick of kids with no life experience bothering to know everything while insisiting that those of us who have lived know nothing.

  18. Elspeth

    I hate to say it Elspeth, but I am calling BS on your last statement. It is exactly the same thing: the woman leaving her faith at the door. How it expresses itself might be the somewhat different, but functionally it is the same character flaw/sin.

    You need to re-read the part of my comment that you highlighted Donal. I fully admitted that women like me follow their tingles and checked their faith at the door. And it was sin. But I followed my tingles to the altar, not from bed to bed to bed. Unless you are saying that the two things are equivalent? That N doesn’t matter after all?

  19. Ah Elpseth, did you really know that it would lead you to the altar though? I don’t want to pry, but think on whether it was the altar which drove you into SAM’s arms, or just the arms. You might have ended up married, but is that because of you, or because of him?

    Edit: In case it wasn’t clear, there would be a difference between the Church girl who marries a heathen and the Church girls who date and sleep around… if the one who goes to the altar doesn’t sleep with the future husband first.

  20. Elspeth

    Ah Elpseth, did you really know that it would lead you to the altar though?

    Touche. I didn’t know that I would end up at the altar. I knew that he was a man of high standards and that when he said a thing he meant it. I suspected that he was the one, but I had no guarantees. And truth be told, I don’t know that I ever would have left any time soon if we didn’t end up at the altar.

    You might have ended up married, but is that because of you, or because of him?

    Of course it was because of him. He’s not the kind of man who can be prodded into doing anything he doesn’t want to do. I recognize how fortunate I am and would have a conniption if my own daughters went down the same path. I was simply making the distinction between a carousel rider and a woman who married outside Biblical parameters.

  21. Elspeth

    In case it wasn’t clear, there would be a difference between the Church girl who marries a heathen and the Church girls who date and sleep around… if the one who goes to the altar doesn’t sleep with the future husband first.

    I understand. What are the chances that the church girl doesn’t sleep with the heathen future husband first? I suppose it’s possible.

  22. See, that is one way in which the girl going to the altar and the one who dates/sleeps around is the same. But, I can think of a way they are different:

    The one who goes to the altar wants to get married and intends to get married, which makes her fundamentally different than the ones BF mentioned before, who just want to sleep around without getting married. Those really are different mindsets. The first girl is being sinful and foolish, while the second is just being sinful.

  23. Elspeth

    Be sure to check out my blog Monday, Donal. The subject is not at all related, but you will get a much better picture of what you and I are discussing here as it relates to my particular situation.

    I often joke that he was unequally yoked in a less than advantageous way as well.

  24. One idea which I really owe Dalrock for is the notion that a woman who is a full-on carousel rider is not really different than a woman who moves from LTR to LTR. The latter is still on the carousel, just in slow motion. Given enough time, they both would rack up a disgustingly high N.

    The thing is, a girl who wants to marry, but sleeps around with a heathen whom she hopes to marry has no guarantee that he will marry her. Not anymore (I miss shotgun weddings). So if he leaves her, then what is she to do? She can either fully repent and switch back to only Church boys, or she can repeat the process. Which is, as Dalrock points out, essentially the same process as a carousel rider.

  25. Elspeth

    So if he leaves her, then what is she to do? She can either fully repent and switch back to only Church boys, or she can repeat the process. Which is, as Dalrock points out, essentially the same process as a carousel rider.

    Yes, I recognize that this was a danger that I avoided. Ironically, the reality was that I could have married a good Christian man (although I am hardly persuaded that I wouldn’t have had my hands full getting him to wait).

    My issue was not that Christian men were unattractive. Plenty of them were. It was that they were largely as unprincipled as other men when it comes to sex among other things. Or they were too supplicating.

    My husband was a breath of fresh air. Principled about the things he had formed a position on; no wavering. And very, very strong of mind. He would not be led by me. I wasn’t looking for perfection. Just strength and principles. Even you must admit that those are in short supply. I was 21 when I found them and I sure as heck wasn’t going to wait untl I finished school to get married. Too risky.

  26. This idea you have that churches are loaded with “hot,” eligible, truly Christian men is just not reality, and could only come from a woman who already snapped up her hot guy and can judge the rest through rose-colored glasses, like a mother asking her daughter what’s wrong with this or that “nice boy.” I might argue that there are more eligible single men than single women, but both are pretty scarce.

    When I was talking about attractive Christian bachelors, I wasn’t talking about the divorced middle aged crowd (no offense to any single Christian men in their 40’s). I was talking about 20-somethings/early 30-somethings who spent years focusing on their education and subsequent career, are now doing well for themselves and want to settle down – yet their Christian morals seem to repel any Christian woman in a 20 block radius. Either he’s a lying unchaste potential rapist or a boring Beta loser – there’s always some sort-of reason presented to justify his inability to find a Christian wife and to justify Christian women pursuits of non-Christian men. The good news is – these men do find a wife, eventually. Are they always American Christian women? No.

    Case in point: on a Hafu discussion board I comment on, I’ve noticed lately there’s been an uptick in Japanese women who are married to Expats. (It’s become more acceptable in Japanese society, especially considering the poor economy. Japanese women prefer to marry men with full time jobs; an employed Westerner is considered more marriageable than an unemployed Japanese man) These women all express incredibility that their husband was single for so long, as well as astonishment concerning their Western husband’s morals (i.e. the stereotype Western men only want one thing from Japanese girls and are poor marriage prospects). Women aren’t inherently disgusted by “nice guy” Christian men. It’s solely an American Christian phenomenon. (Although Western men who marry foreign Asian women are portrayed as loser pigs looking for a “me love you long time” quiet submissive subservient weak woman to order around [said by anyone who’s never been married to an Asian woman]. So in a way the Christian men still can never win.)

    Edit: To everyone, please try and keep this civil. Thank you.

  27. My issue was not that Christian men were unattractive. Plenty of them were. It was that they were largely as unprincipled as other men when it comes to sex among other things. Or they were too supplicating.

    I don’t disagree about this. We’ve had this conversation before, but just because someone is a virgin doesn’t mean they are chaste. Many just lack the opportunity. Truth is, the truly devout have always been few in number.

  28. Elspeth

    Either he’s a lying unchaste potential rapist or a boring Beta loser – there’s always some sort-of reason presented to justify his inability to find a Christian wife and to justify Christian women pursuits of non-Christian men.

    I’ve tried to be civil Donal, but this girl’s using my comments and my experience as some sort of ammunition to accuse me saying all Christan single men are creepy evil rapists pisses me off. I said no such thing. I said they have sex when they can as much as th women do. I am not backing down from that.

    Unless she is accusing me of lying, then I don’t understand why she finds my story so heinous. As if it could never have happened because every single man in the churches are angels.

    Butterfly Flower, I would like to kow the extent of your real life experiences in the American evangelical church. Cail Corvishev seems like he has a more realistic picture of the landscape than you.

    What is your experience (years, denominations, church attendance, fellowhip with the parishioners, etc.)? I’m curious how you know so much more than I do. Why my comments are so easily dismissed.

    Why is it that the notion that most of the woen in church are lukewarm at best acceptable (and I agree by the way) but the idea that the men are in basically the same spiritual state so unbelievable?

  29. Elspeth

    I don’t disagree about this. We’ve had this conversation before, but just because someone is a virgin doesn’t mean they are chaste. Many just lack the opportunity. Truth is, the truly devout have always been few in number.

    Thank you, sir. I am satisfied to kow that the host and one other man here acknowledges the validity of my basic premise. I am done. People with pet issues can hardly ever be reasoned with.

  30. I should point out that, Elspeth and BF, that you both come from very different experiences. West Coast/East Coast. Catholic v. Protestant. Different ethnic background. Plus a whole generational difference as well. All of which means that both of your accounts could be true. Or both false. The problem with relying on personal experience is that it could be abnormal, and it is difficult to be certain without a large sample size.

  31. Edit: To everyone, please try and keep this civil. Thank you.

    I apologize, I don’t mean to be rude or antagonistic. I have an issue with discussions online because I struggle expressing myself in English. Unlike Japanese, it is difficult to express one social manners while using English grammar.

    The not beating part, maybe. However, “nice” is neither a trait they want nor one they should want. Christian women are WOMEN, and as such, they want MEN, men who excite them, that give her a sense of adventure.

    Are reliability traits under-appreciated? YES. Should women want to get beaten up? NO. However, I think that Christian males would do far better by themselves and by their women to recognize that in an instinct-driven society such as ours it’s far more effective to work within that reality than to hope it changes.

    By assuming nice men are boring and unadventurous, aren’t you also buying into this myth that decent Christian men lack the “oomph” (.i.e. are losers) necessary for strong relationships?

    My shy “nice guy” husband is a former model that climbs mountains as a hobby (a hobby I’m not too keen about due to his severe asthma. I wouldn’t mind if he took up pottery instead. It can be just as adventurous! …The kiln is very hot?)

    I’ve stated before on the blogosphere (although I was dismissed) that there’s a difference between Christian Alphas and Secular Alphas. Sure, they have traits that overlap, but overall they are two entirely different things.

    The problem in modern American Christianity is that Christian women are trained to not value Christian Alphas and view Secular Alphas as superior. So the behavior that would have wet a Christian girl’s panties in the 1950’s, now gets men labeled a “creepy unattractive loser””too soft” etc. etc. etc.

    Meanwhile the pastor preaches about men needing to step up to the plate and take care of single mothers (even if the single mothers were knocked up by non-Christian men), the few Christian husbands in the congregation are painted as cheating pigs, or awful filthy sinners that their wonderful wives are saints for putting up with.

    There’s always a reason to explain why Christian men are so terrible.

    I don’t mean to be antagonistic by stating this.

    I’ve tried to be civil Donal, but this girl’s using my comments and my experience as some sort of ammunition to accuse me saying all Christan single men are creepy evil rapists pisses me off. I said no such thing. I said they have sex when they can as much as th women do. I am not backing down from that.

    The example you gave was that a Christian man pressured you for sex to the point where you pushed him off (Maybe this is just me, but if I repeatedly said no and a man got on top of me and I had to push him off, I’d define him as “potential rapist”) you than proceeded to claim all chaste Christian men you’ve encountered are like that.

    Sure, men have high sex drives, but it doesn’t mean all Christian men will pressure women for sex. Just because you had bad experiences with dating Christian men in the past, doesn’t mean all Christian men are like that.

  32. Thank you, sir. I am satisfied to kow that the host and one other man here acknowledges the validity of my basic premise. I am done. People with pet issues can hardly ever be reasoned with.

    Unchaste virgins is a pet issue of yours, no?

    Alecst called you out on it as well as a few others. Whenever someone mentions virginity you instantly bring up “well not all virgins are chaste”.

    Why do you do that? Do you honestly think no chaste virgins exist?

  33. Why do you do that? Do you honestly think no chaste virgins exist?

    I think she mentions it BF to warn chaste virgins that just because someone else is a virgin, it doesn’t mean that they are chaste. To warn women that a male virgin might still take advantage of them, or to warn men that a female virgin might have a dangerous mindset that will prove hostile in marriage.

  34. Elspeth

    I am responding further only because you just told an outright lie on me, BF. I never said that all Christian men are like that. Never.

    I don’t believe that at all, though I do believe that most of them will engage in premarital sex if given the opportunity, same as the women do. The truly righteous remnant has always been few, as Donal noted.

    You need to re-read and let go of your pet issue long enough to respond to what is written.

    Yes, Donal, there are cultural issues here. I would add that my evangelical experience is not limited to majority black churches and we have lived in lily white communities for the past 20 years. Schools, homeschool groups. local church functions, you name it, although we do go back to the urban areas on Sunday. When you get beneath the surface, it’s the same dynamic.

    I acknowledge the Catholic/Protestant, East/West divide though. This is a very real barrier that we may never be able to get beyond,

  35. Elspeth

    Why do you do that? Do you honestly think no chaste virgins exist?

    Of course they exist. I even know a few, LOL. That doesn’t mean that the majority of virgins in the church are chaste. We’re all born virgins, after all. It’s a physical state. Chastity is of the heart.

    Or do you disagree with that as well?

  36. Statistically virgins who marry virgins have the lowest percentage of divorces, and the highest percentage of happiness/sexual satisfaction (proven in more than one study) So the fact that Elsbeth focuses on the anomaly “virgins who go bad” says more about her axe to grind against chaste virgins, than a legitimate risk facing individuals who wait until marriage.

  37. Elspeth

    I acknowledge the Catholic/Protestant, East/West divide though. This is a very real barrier that we may never be able to get beyond

    Because of that, this young woman should at least be willing to acknowledge that I may actually know more than she and the other young woman she mentioned (who I might add is also NOT an American).

    They should realize that the discussions are largely around mainstream American Christianity, which is severely broken. Everyone knows it. And yes, women are the driving force behind much of the dysfunction, but to imply that it hasn’t broken the men too is just foolishness.

  38. Elspeth

    So the fact that Elsbeth focuses on the anomaly “virgins who go bad” says more about her axe to grind against chaste virgins, than a legitimate risk facing individuals who wait until marriage.

    I only ever go there when you show up to trash those of us who have somehow managed to find beauty in the ashes after repentance from our sins. I hate this notion that virgins are somehow less in need of redemption that the rest of the world.

    You shut up, (and you really sould since you don’t even believe in Jesus), and I’ll shut up.

  39. Ok ladies, enough. I am going to ask everyone to just cool off and leave this thread be for the moment. Thank you.

  40. Of course they exist. I even know a few, LOL. That doesn’t mean that the majority of virgins in the church are chaste. We’re all born virgins, after all. It’s a physical state. Chastity is of the heart.

    Let me guess – your daughters?

    Can I ask you a question – do you think my virginity mattered? Or do you think I was “unchaste” in the heart for making out with my husband or some other minor infraction, like owning a Lady Gaga CD? (you know, like every other American Christian woman who wasn’t my Mom, sister, or Mother in Law)?

    I’m working on a Red Pill theory based on the Shadowed Knight’s brilliant “Show White Syndrome” comment about how he believes older Christian women intentionally tear down/lead astray chaste Christian women in their congregations to make their own offspring look better and increase chances of continuing their genetic line.

  41. Ok ladies, enough. I am going to ask everyone to just cool off and leave this thread be for the moment. Thank you.

    Didn’t notice ’cause I forgot to refresh page. Plz though let her answer my final question – I do often wonder if Shadowed Knight was right.

  42. The close call in timing means that I won’t delete your comments, but any response can and will wait until tomorrow.

  43. I honestly don’t look at these conversations in light of my own daughters’ chances of securing a mate. And no they were not the only chaste virgins I was referring to.

    This whole red pill conversation fascinates me but it isn’t new to me. I grew up

  44. Don’t know what happened to my comment. As I was saying, I grew up red pill. This isn’t new to me. I’ve said before that I admired BF’s chastity. I have long ago made peace with my past mistakes. I have no desire to discourage young Christian women away from chastity. If that was my agenda I could hardly call myself a Christian.

    I just really get angry when the redemptive work of the Cross is spat on based on the nature of the persons former sins.

    I have no inkling of a thought that what is said here will affect my kids.

  45. There seems to be this weird divide going on: churches seem to only have single chaste men or single chaste women. Part of this might be because those with both won’t find them single for long, but I think there is more to it than that.

    I can see two reasons, though there are probably others. The first is just math: if you flip a coin a hundred times, odds are you won’t get 50 heads and 50 tails. You’re actually more likely to get something near that but not exactly 50/50, just because of the way probabilities work. So in a particular parish or small town, a generation probably won’t have a 1-to-1 boy-girl ratio, nor will they match up perfectly in attractiveness. So if your church had 55 boys and 45 girls reach marrying age over a particular span, you’d find yourself left with 10 spare girls, which will seem like a lot even though it’s a small percentage of the whole. And because people pair off at different ages with people of different ages, it’s not obvious that, hey, out of this particular age group we just had extra girls.

    Another reason is preaching and personalities. The more feminized churches tend to drive away men; and the more liberal and non-judgmental the preaching, the more it will attract single moms and divorcees. Some of the men are giving up church entirely, but some aren’t, so they’re going somewhere, giving other churches spare men. And then there are personalities: a masculine priest or preacher whom men respect and want to learn from may be able to keep men around even if the denomination itself is liberal, while a church with a milquetoast (or woman) preacher and bad 70s music may have no men between the ages of 18 and 60 who aren’t card-carrying members of NOW.

    I don’t know if you could gauge a church’s adherence to tradition and doctrine based on its man/woman ratio, but I suspect you could get pretty close. (Though even closer would be its married/single ratio, or its child/family ratio.)

  46. Interesting thoughts Cail. Especially the latter two paragraphs. I had been considering something along those lines, but you fleshed the ideas out nicely. Although my suspicion is that it is more applicable the older the person; someone still in high school will likely go to the same church but a 25 year old has far more flexibility in terms of what church he or she can and will attend.

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