Market Failure- Part 2

This is Part 2 of my Market Failure Series. Part 1 can be found here (I suggest reading it first).

Undercutting the Market

Something that has become a real problem for chaste women who are looking to get married is the effect that unchaste women have on the MMP. Marriage is costly, for both men and women, but right now the cost to men is greater. It is natural for humans to not want to have to pay for something if they can help it, so if they are given a chance to get products for free they will do so. Unfortunately for women, the product they are trying to sell is primarily sex (in the form of access, fidelity and the fruits of sex-children). And when other women offer it at discount prices (as in outside of marriage), then of course many men will leap at the opportunity. Mind you, those of us who understand how the current SMP works know that many of the men who fall for the lie of sexual liberation won’t really benefit from it. They may get some sex along the way, but in the grand scheme of things not as much as they would if the market was healthy and they “bought” the product. The net effect of these men leaving the market is to make matters much worse for the women who stay inside, because they are left with a far smaller pool of potential buyers. Were all women required to behave in a chaste manner or be forced out of civilized society, then men (driven by their omnipresent and powerful sex drive) would be forced to participate in the marriage market in order to satiate their desires.

Also, even those men who are still in the market for marriage might still expect to have sex with their prospective wives before getting married. When faced with a woman who wishes to maintain her virtue, they will probably simply move on. Their acclimatization at the hands of unchaste women and a licentious culture has left them unable to appreciate the value of a virtuous, chaste woman as a marriage partner.

Network Error

One of the more significant problems for a chaste man or woman trying to find a spouse is the complete breakdown of the old social networks. By social network I don’t mean Facebook, I mean the vast interconnected links of friendships and family ties that used to exist when our society was healthier. A century ago you could trust your family and friends to help you find a marriage partner. And if they couldn’t find you someone, then someone they knew would find you someone, and so on. Church was a place you went to be encouraged to marry, and you could find a good spouse there. In short, the whole community was effectively on your side if you wanted to get married. Of course, that assumes that you had a reputation in your community that was positive. Someone with a negative reputation would find themselves locked out of this system, and discouraged from participating. While this could be abused, more often than not it served to keep away men and women who were up to no good.

This is all gone now. The old networks are gone, and aren’t likely to be rebuilt anytime soon. People are more spread out and disconnected than ever, and the odds that family or friends will be able to find you a suitable mate are dismally low. It does still happen, but is the exception rather than the rule now. In market terms, think of this networking as a form of buyer recommendations. They helped to direct buyers and sellers towards interested parties that were thought to be a good match. Is it possible to find a mate without this? Yes… but it is that more difficult. Think of what Amazon would be like if it didn’t have features to recommend products bought by those with similar tastes or purchasing patterns. You could still get what you want, but it takes a lot more time and effort to get it. The same applies to the MMP.

So Close and Yet so Far…

Not too long ago I met a Christian woman who was quite a bit younger than me (although still an adult). Although we met in a professional setting, it was somewhat relaxed, and so we got to know more about one another. Both as a measure of respect and to preserve anonymity, I will simply describe her as an attractive young lady who was thin but in a healthy way. Not a bombshell, but clearly on the right side of the distribution curve of female attractiveness. After talking with her for a while I discovered that she was a very devout Christian. And I mean Christian, not a Churchian. She took scripture very seriously, and believed in following that teaching in everyday life. I never asked, and she never mentioned, if she was chaste, but for her I considered the question unnecessary. Her actions and demeanor spoke for her on that accord. Also, when the subject of sexual sins came up in one of our theology discussions, she was quite vehement in her agreement that sexual sins were especially damaging.

When it came to matters outside of faith, we had a lot in common. We enjoyed many of the same TV shows and movies, and many of the same subjects fascinated us. Our personalities seemed to mesh well, and it quickly became clear to me that she enjoyed my presence a lot. Enough that I soon surmised that she was attracted to me, even as I was attracted to her. Now most of you are probably asking why the hell I am writing this and not actively pursuing her. The reason: She was a Protestant and held views which were often the polar opposite of Catholic teaching and doctrine. And she was very sincere and serious about her beliefs; I wasn’t going to be able to simply get her to change her mind. Sadly, it just wasn’t going to work out between us.

This story highlights one of the major difficulties that Christians face in the current MMP. We are called to not be unequally yoked, and at the same time we find ourselves hopelessly divided against one another. Two Christians can find one another only to discover they are from different faith traditions. I have written before how Church Shopping encourages bad teaching. Church shopping is possible only because the Church is divided; were we still one body in Christ that wouldn’t be possible. Unfortunately, that disunity also has the effect of impairing the ability of young Christians marrying by throwing yet another obstacle in their way by effectively lowering the pool of potential mates that much more.

Angels versus Sluts

No, that isn’t the title of the newest Made For SyFy movie (if it was, the word shark would be in there somewhere). Rather, this is to discuss another signal of sexual dysfunction which is occurring in parts of the West. Specifically, the situation where married men will only sleep with their wives for the purpose of having children, and turn towards prostitutes and porn to satisfy their lusts/passions. This is not common in the United States, but in some European countries which were until recently more traditional it is not unheard of. In such cases, married women (especially Christian married women) are seen as angels who are “pure” and shouldn’t be corrupted by carnal desires. This notion of not sleeping with your wife (even if she is attractive) seems crazy to us here in the US and in other Western countries, but it does exist. Similar practices occurred in the past in the UK and US during Victorian times, when married men in some circles would often visit prostitutes for sex, because sex with your wife was something done for procreation only. Now, that practice has died out here, but it did exist and still does exist elsewhere.

So how did it come about, and what does it mean? Well, it is my belief that it is an alternate response to the old saw that women are pure, good and sugar and spice and all things nice. When exposed to this falsehood, men develop unhealthy ideas about women. They adopt a binary pattern, where they assign women to two different categories:

Angels- pure and innocent women who shouldn’t be the subject of carnal desire. If you have sex with them, it should only be for procreation. They are pedestalized and treated well (most of the time).

Sluts- sinful and broken women who have rejected their purity and innocence, in essence, their “true” feminine nature. With such women sex for pleasure is not only alright, it is all that they are good for. These women are not respected and are treated badly.

When you think about it, this makes a certain sense. It is an attempt to rationalize and explain the true nature of women while still maintaining an overall mode of thought that leaves women as innately good. Think of it as an attempt to fit observable facts about how women behave with blue pill thinking. There are the “true” women, the Angels, and then there are the “false” women, the Sluts.

This is an awful mode of thought for men and women, because it prevents the development of a truly healthy marriage. Men who would otherwise want their wives are taught that they shouldn’t direct such thoughts to women, and instead are directed towards porn and prostitution. Women, on the other hand, who in many cases would desire to be desired, are denied the full measure of their husbands masculine power. The end result is massive amounts of sin and unhealthy marriages. Yet another sign of a Market Failure.

Substitute Goods

Lastly, this brings us to the topic of pornography. This subject seemed to generate the most discussion last time around, and I have no doubt that it will do so again. Before I delve into this more deeply, I wish to make the point that I am not exploring the moral, ethical or religious implications of porn. That will be for another post in a few days. Instead, I am examining how pornography impacts the MMP.

As I begin, I think it important to distinguish pornography from its rough female equivalent: the romance novel (specifically, the bodice-ripper or sub/dom type). Both of them serve as a sort of release, although they do it in different ways and satisfy different needs. For women, the romance novel satisfies the emotional high which comes from experiencing the true measure of a dominantly masculine man. For women, the physical need and release of sex seems to be (based on observation and testimony) less important or meaningful than the emotional high which accompanies the act when it is with an attractive man. Meanwhile, pornography (and the subsequent accompanying act) accomplishes the goal of satisfying or sating the male sex drive. For men the physical Need of sex is more important (or at least more pressing) than the emotional connectivity of the sex act. Something they both have in common is that they can be addictive, and can cause lasting damage. For men the damage is physical for certain, and possibly emotional, while for women the damage seems to be purely emotional, in that it can impair their ability to experience an emotional high from sex.

So how does this impact the MMP? As I explained earlier, the primary product that women sell in the MMP is sex, while the primary product of men is commitment. The romance novel might provide women with an emotional high, but it cannot satisfy the female need for male commitment (and yes, it is a need). Therefore the participation of women in the MMP will not be greatly affected, except indirectly. That indirect effect is that they are more likely to divorce their husbands, because they are less likely to experience an emotional thrill as a result of having sex with their husband. The situation is quite different for men though. Pornography can sate (however poorly) the male sex drive, which is the primary commodity that women bring to the MMP. In a way, it acts as a substitute product, allowing men look outside of women to meet their market needs. I would say that it is an inferior product, but there are men in this day and age who would disagree. They would point out the various flaws in women, and explain that “the real thing” isn’t much or any better in most cases. While for some women this would seem to be the case, I think most men would agree that on the whole this isn’t true. What might be true, on the other hand, is that on a cost/benefit analysis porn might be better than many women (at least when it comes to satisfying the Need, the Void is another matter) in the current MMP.

Another reason for porn’s prevalence these days has to do with the delaying of marriage. In the United States the median age of marriage for men was 28.2 in 2010. It is almost certainly higher than that now. Women have jumped up to 26.1 as of 2010. Remember that the primary male reason for joining the MMP is sex, a drive nearly as powerful as that of hunger and thirst. Most men do not have the discipline to suppress their sex drive until they are 28, and in truth most men probably could never achieve that level of discipline. They will look for a release to meet the Need. With marriage delayed for so long, and with prostitution expensive and risky, porn is the cheaper and safer alternative. While it is not the only force in play here, the fact that women are delaying marriage (at least in the US) is a major reason for the uptick in porn use. [And yes, if you are wondering if I am saying what you think I am saying, I am. Women are the cause of a lot (not all) of porn use by men.]

In the long run, the effects of porn will be to persuade many men to drop out of the MMP. Given the currency that they have to offer, and what they can buy with it, pornography seems like a better deal. For the women in the MMP, this has a similar effect to unchaste women, it dilutes their effective value. Unfortunately for women, they cannot do nearly as much to improve their MMV as men can.

In Conclusion

Whether they are symptoms of the greater problem or they are causes of that problem, all of the subjects that I have covered detail the overall Market Failure that we are experiencing now. Marriage is a broken mess in the West and there are no signs of it getting better any time soon. As much as many of us would like to fix the institution, it is unlikely we will be able to do so. Why? First off, there are many who refuse to acknowledge that the institution is broken to begin with. Even then, among those who do recognize there is a problem, few are able to perceive what the cause of this dysfunction is. Lastly, and most importantly, even if the cause was universally acknowledged, it is doubtful that the will exists to do what must be done to solve the problem.

 

Update: I have decided to write a relatively brief Part 3 to include a few other ideas which I haven’t explored yet. Hopefully it should be out later today.

47 Comments

Filed under Marriage, Men, Red Pill, Serial Monogamy, Women

47 responses to “Market Failure- Part 2

  1. Alan K

    I wasn’t going to be able to simply get her to change her mind.

    I would certainly hope not; it shouldn’t be easy to change her mind about these things. It would be evidence of a weak character or an immature faith or both. Her level of conviction is highly attractive as a potential wife and an intellectual partner. Clearly, it’s difficult to guess where the conversation might have gone without pursuing it. If she is reasonably attractive—wow, you must be expecting a perfectly tailored suit right off of the rack. I wish you well with that.

    If I may be so blunt, here, what is your reason for dismissing her suitability without delving more deeply into her beliefs, if only to see where it might go and discover if either one of you might gain some new insight into the nature and plan of God?

    You have more of the relevent facts than I do, of course, but I am very perplexed, just as you anticipated in your post. Is this kind of thinking prevalent in the current MMP? If so, then I would be very frustrated, indeed.

    Can you further enlighten this old (relatively—I’m not ancient, just yet) married man?

  2. Alan, if her beliefs included a position that Catholics are wrong to the point of heresy, it would have been a barrier to proper respect and submission.

  3. Alan K

    It’s very easy and convenient to adopt an attitude of, “Just believe everything that I say; then, we can talk.” This “echo chamber” approach is very limiting right out of the gate. The OP mentioned the fractured condition of the Church. I am echoing this fact; commenting that it is unwise to assume a given outcome. Have the conversation. I am not sure how far he pursued it.

    If you want to discuss her respect for authority either within or without the Church, go ahead. If you want to determine her adherence to sound Church teaching, fine.

    If you reject her for not belonging to the right group at the outset, then you won’t learn much about her or anything that she holds dear. Just saying; a little patience can work wonders—for everyone involved.

  4. Alan, I apologize if I wasn’t clear:

    Some Protestants regard Catholics as in SUCH a state of heresy, and some of their practices SO blasphemous, that they can’t be properly regarded as Christian. (Some Catholics feel the same way about Protestants, but that’s beside the point.) Correct or not, it’s the way it is.

    There is a range within which a (reasonable) woman can disagree with her husband and still be able to submit to his leadership in spiritual matters. However, outside of that range–and it varies with the level of conviction and the principles–it becomes harder to the point of impossibility. It’s not reasonable nor practical to assume that mere love can overcome this, or else the instruction not to be “unevenly yoked” wouldn’t have been put in. Nor should one’s feelings for someone else take precedence over conscience, wouldn’t you agree?

    I don’t know if this was Donal’s situation, but I’ve seen this in action and it’s not so small a thing as you think.

  5. Great stuff. Great points about porn as a substitute. I’ve often thought about how if you have a sexual release it makes you desire marriage less, at least for a short time. I believe there is a delayed marriage – sexual immorality – cycle. Asking a guy to wait until 30 for sex is crazy. But having sex (or a substitute) over and over again without marriage also delays it.

    The divided church thing is also a huge point. I need to think about that more.

  6. I don’t think there’s any question that porn is inferior to sex with a real live woman, but to continue talking in market terms, you have to consider the costs as well as the benefit of the product. Yes, Real Girl is better than Video Girl. But Real Girl may come with many costs and strings attached. Real Girl may use a man’s request for sex as a weapon against him. She may act impatient and put-upon during sex, making him feel like a heel for needing it. She may reject him outright, damaging his already precarious position as the head of the family. She may insist that he take out the trash first.

    Video girl does none of these things; she happily and enthusiastically does whatever he wants until he’s sated. So while he’d rather have Real Girl, he feels that Video Girl is all he can afford. He’s like a man who settles for a burger, because steak costs twice as much and sometimes comes with arsenic and razor blades inserted into it.

  7. Alan K

    Nor should one’s feelings for someone else take precedence over conscience, wouldn’t you agree?

    Absolutely. Attraction is just a starting point. My curiosity is, “How far did they pursue their differences?” Many preconceptions can crumble under even mild scrutiny. We fall into patterns, at times, without adequate reason.

    I do not advocate an “unequal yoke” at all. Romantic notions aren’t worth a hill of beans. Rather, I am always cheering for a triumph of faith through submission to God’s will. The Church is in ruin, yes, thanks to our stubborn disobedience, but we don’t need to perpetuate and worsen this condition.

    Enough said. We seem to be generally in agreement: Accept was is; be practical; challenge preconceptions; keep learning. The Bereans come to mind, along with an admonition to be circumspect, and not as fools.

  8. @ Alan and Sigyn

    I didn’t want to get into too deep of detail, but we did get into some fairly deep conversations about faith. The differences in our beliefs were not insignificant. I’m talking issues like Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, and others. There was mutual respect between us, and she never gave any hint of thinking that I was not Christian, but it was a vast gulf. And we hadn’t explored everything, either.

    I am a Catholic, in case that wasn’t clear enough, and that carries with it some burdens and requirements. The Church recognizes marriages with non-Catholics, but there are certain requirements that go with it. Prime among them is that the children of such a union are to be raised in the Catholic tradition. I was fairly sure that she would have trouble with this, and bringing it up would have made matters between us… uncomfortable.

    @ Cail

    I did address that, although your mentioning hidden costs showcases another problem which I should have mentioned in the post. In fact, assuming I get time, I might update it to include that.

    @ Justin

    I believe there is a delayed marriage – sexual immorality – cycle.

    Absolutely. I’ve argued before that the delaying of marriage in our culture guarantees a massive increase in sexual immorality. Whether that comes in the form of pornography or fornication, it is going to happen. If we as Christians are serious about reducing sexual immorality, we need to encourage young marriage, and support young marriage.

  9. Very very interesting post on this subject matter Mr.Graeme. Especially the Angles versus sluts. Now I am a girl that goes to the gym six days a week and make sure her body is in check in a positive way. I do dress ladylike because I like to lead to the imagination but, my problem is in the dating scene that most guys that come up to me are non-bodybuilders and guys whom don’t work out.

    They come off as I work out because I am scared to by fat again, not true because I kept the weight off for six years going seven in October. I hate it when they think they can just ask me out on a date because its easier to date male bodybuilders and athletes because they understand what it takes to go to the gym and workout in order to keep that form going.

    I also get the same group of guys stating that they think its hot that I have a figure like a fitness model; what are you suggestions for the bodybuilding female when trying to ensure she only gets a bodybuilding man and, not a pantywaist who is trying to get a girl with a hot body?

  10. She was a Protestant and held views which were often the polar opposite of Catholic teaching and doctrine. And she was very sincere and serious about her beliefs; I wasn’t going to be able to simply get her to change her mind. Sadly, it just wasn’t going to work out between us.

    Dude, WHAT’S HER EMAIL.

    Gees, it’s amazing how we’re all whistling past each other. I had a similar experience myself, and this girl was O_O. Sexy, hot, frugal, submissive, bible studies every night, went on missions all the time, and she was into me. BUT, there was a major disparity between our Christian beliefs that could not be overcome. Despite her devoutness, she would not accept my perspective on the state of affairs in the churches today, the adverse impact of Churchianity, etc. As Christians I believe a man and woman needs to be of one accord in the spirit, and if they can’t be one in spirit, then how can they be one in the flesh? So I broke it off.

    I find it tragic, because I suspect she would have made a very good wife for someone more compatible, just not for me. It makes me wonder if at some point I’m just going to go “floop this, she’s good enough” the next time I meet someone, even if she raises all kinds of red flags. “Wellll she’s not entirely submissive, but she’s a good cook and only fitness tests me 3 days a week, so I’ll make it work.”

  11. Cello,

    When I get a chance I will give my thoughts and suggestions via e-mail.

  12. Pingback: There’s Porn, and Then There’s Porn | Cail Corishev

  13. Deep Strength

    Going off your speculation this is what I think is likely going to happen:

    The MMP is going to get much worse, especially in the US potentially to the point that the black population has it now. Most of the feminized men are probably going to start dropping out of the MMP completely, as porn and the rise of the “sexbots” that the manosphere has been talking about will continue to increase.

    Then, like in Europe, Islam is going to invade and polygamy in some form or another is going to become acceptable if not legalized.

    I’ve seen Isaiah 4 quoted a bunch in the manosphere, and I’ve quoted it as well:

    1 In that day seven women
    will take hold of one man
    and say, “We will eat our own food
    and provide our own clothes;
    only let us be called by your name.
    Take away our disgrace!”

    But Isaiah 3 is also pretty pertinent, and here’s some of the parts of the chapter that are particularly true:

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%203&version=NASB

    9 [k]The expression of their faces bears witness against them,
    And they display their sin like Sodom;
    They do not even conceal it.
    Woe to [l]them!
    For they have brought evil on themselves.
    10 Say to the righteous that it will go well with them,
    For they will eat the fruit of their actions.
    11 Woe to the wicked! It will go badly with him,
    For [m]what he deserves will be done to him.
    12 O My people! Their oppressors [n]are children,
    And women rule over them.
    O My people! Those who guide you lead you astray
    And confuse the direction of your paths.

    I’m unsure if things will ever “get better” in any sense of the word. That’s why I’m confused on why some Christian manosphere blogs and commenters thinking things will improve to any extent.

    However, I was gladly proven wrong by JoJ’s testimony on taking back a church, so I think that’s probably what we should be aiming for as Christians. Take back the bride of Christ, and preach the gospel to all even if rejected.

    It’s clear that we’re probably coming up to the end times in some shape or form, so culture/society is going to only get worse until Jesus comes again.

  14. I did address that, — Donal

    Right, I guess I just wanted to reemphasize it, because the cost side of the equation gets neglected most of the time. Women especially see it as, “Why would he rather watch porn than have sex?” Well, he wouldn’t, of course. But that’s only one side of it.

  15. It’s clear that we’re probably coming up to the end times in some shape or form, so culture/society is going to only get worse until Jesus comes again.

    I agree with this, the takeaway we should draw is that the world will progressively get worse and become more depraved and evil to the extent that if Christ didn’t return in due time, the entire human race would exterminate itself. We’re not going to see a miraculous turnaround like some people would like to think.

  16. Deep Strength

    @ cellogirl2012

    Frankly, the numbers aren’t on your side or my side either as a man interested in women in fitness related activities. Most Christians don’t care about them which is sad.

    Getting out to bodybuilding competitions probably isn’t the best way to meet them, but if you’re up for switching to one of the bigger gyms where there are a lot of people that could work. Likewise, there may be some groups on meetup.com that focus specifically on bodybuilding or other physical pursuits. Likewise, if you have friends or family who know Christian men who are into physical activity and single that may be another good alternate route.

    I’ve long since given up looking for a woman into fitness in my particular area of passions (gymnasts, rock climbing, parkour, etc.) since there’s very few Christian females who even workout. I’m mostly just generally looking now for a Christian woman who is into any type of fitness now, aside from vegetarianism and veganism because that’s unhealthy.

  17. On the first part, undercutting the market, that causes a problem for chaste men as well. When women get used to the idea that every guy is going to be pawing them and trying for sex by the second date, a man who is determined to be chaste can come off seeming like a non-sexual wimp. He’s stuck, because if he tells her he’s committed to chastity before marriage, he loses attractiveness value, even if that’s genuinely a desirable trait for her. So somehow he has to project his sexual interest, without using the methods she’s been trained to expect. I think some women end up missing the exact kind of guy they were looking for, because he was desperately trying to be a gentleman and they thought, “He doesn’t seem interested in me.”

  18. “Dude, WHAT’S HER EMAIL.”

    Hahahahhaahhaa.

    But seriously, one (unrelated) connection I’ve made recently:

    “And when other women offer [sex] at discount prices (as in outside of marriage), …The net effect…is to make matters much worse for the women who [wait for marriage].”

    In one of Baumeister’s papers he posited that this is the reason that it has often been women who have been the modesty police. Farsighted men on the side of patriarchy of course understand its importance, but women have direct incentive to keep the price of sex high. If chaste women represent a sort of “sex cartel,” then unchaste women are breaking the pact, indirectly hurting other women, as you describe. Thus the motivation for women to slut-shame.

    All well and good, and present in Baumeister’s paper and your post. The connection I’ve made recently, though, is that men have similar ire to hopeless betas: “pussywhipped,” “herb,” “mangina.”

  19. You will need to explain that last part a little more drop it.

  20. Sorry. What I mean is: I’ve noticed in my journeys through the redpill subreddit that there’s a level of resentment against guys who engage in egregiously supplicative behavior.

    Who is making the MMP worse for women by sleeping with men outside of marriage? Sluts. So women shame them.

    Who is making the MMP worse for men by supplicating, etc? Betas. So (to a lesser extent, because now that the cat’s out of the bag men care less about marriage) men shame them.

  21. Ok, that makes sense. A lot of it, actually. White Knights are a chief reason why this mess exists to begin with, and a huge reason why its unlikely to get better anytime soon.

  22. Ellie

    I don’t think supplicating men affect the MMP- but as you see that guy in most ads and sitcoms – it stands to reason that men in general hate being grouped under an offensive stereotype and react with ridicule when they meet a man who personifies a stereotype they resent.

  23. Think of it this way Ellie: if marriage is associated with supplication and weakness (something which most men hate), then most men will eschew marriage to avoid that kind of association. So it could affect the MMP. It falls under the False Advertising aspect of Part 1.

  24. Ellie

    Ahh.. I see what you mean.

  25. Actually, I didn’t think of that until your comment got the gears in my head moving. So thanks.

  26. Deep Strength

    Supplicating men already affect the MMP.

    Women aren’t attracted to them and thus don’t want to marry them in the first place.

    Not even just false advertising.

  27. True Deep Strength, but that isn’t the same effect as discouraging men from joining the MMP in the first place.

  28. My husband and I liked what you did with the dodge the bullet. By stopping the comments and not encouraging contention. We wanted to share this quote with you! “If a man is not allowed to lead himself, how can he lead his family? If the woman tells the man what to do; it makes her the leader and him the follower. Don’t women want leaders?”

  29. Thanks Mrsdarlings. I should have stepped in sooner, but I was busy and I had never locked a thread before, so I had to figure out how first. I am a big believer in positive debate, and that was anything but.

  30. We are on your side 😀

  31. Pingback: Market Failure- Part 3 | Donal Graeme

  32. I understand that you don’t want to marry outside of your denomination. I’m a protestant, and I wouldn’t marry a Catholic (no offense to you or anything), the reason for this is because the child always ends up confused when both parents are not the same religion/denomination, one may be religious, one may not be. The whole family goes to church and wonders why mom or dad is staying at home or not going. At the same time though, I wouldn’t call two people who are Christians (I mean real Christians) who are two different denominations unequally yoked.

  33. Lovely, I can understand why you might not agree that “unequally yoked” is the appropriate description. I chose it because I thought most would recognize what I was trying to say. I believe the term employed by the Catholic Church for the situation is “disparity of cult”, or something along those lines. But that sounds odd out of context, so I went with the other description.

    Oh, and no offense taken.

  34. deti

    “And when other women offer it at discount prices (as in outside of marriage), then of course many men will leap at the opportunity.”

    Good point.

    this has been said at many other places and in many different ways, but i’ll expound on it since it’s germane to undercutting the market.

    To “buy” a quality woman, the price will be high, and necessarily so. A high quality woman (good looking with domestic skills and chaste with low or no N) will easily command (or at least should be able to command) a high price. But when sluts lower their prices, the quality woman finds she cannot compete with those offering sex at a lower price. Sex is what all women are ultimately selling, quality women included, because it’s what men want to buy.

    So the quality woman has to “lower her price” if she wants to participate in this market. Or, she has to find a different market. Or she has to take herself off the market and decline to participate. I speculate a lot of quality women end up lowering their prices, and decide to give up sex; but do so to the highest quality men they can find (usually the best looking men, the wealthiest men, the most sexually aggressive men, and/or the men who get there first).

    “many of the men who fall for the lie of sexual liberation won’t really benefit from it. They may get some sex along the way, but in the grand scheme of things not as much as they would if the market was healthy and they “bought” the product. The net effect of these men leaving the market is to make matters much worse for the women”

    Even though women are selling at lowered (or even bargain-basement) prices, they’re still selective about who they sell to. Some women sell to the same buyers. The pool of men who can buy (or rent) is small in this market. That’s comprised of the players, cads, men with tight game, wealthy men, confident men, righteous alphas and men with status. I.E. men with the necessary or sufficient cadre of LAMPS vectors. Of course the righteous alphas look to purchase and are willing to spend big to get it. The rest usually rent or short term lease, taking a woman or women off the market and then putting them back on in a few weeks or months.

    There are a lot of men willing to spend everything they’ve got to purchase for life, but what they have isn’t enough. They are priced out of this market. They can’t even participate in this market because they don’t have enough to spend. Many of the women in this market, having dropped their prices already, don’t want to price-slash even further to sell to a man who’s breaking the bank already and has nothing more to give. Most of those women would rather rent or lease for more right now, than sell for less now and probably later too. Besides, the lower value men will be there later if and when the big spenders move on to more expensive goods. She finds there will always be a buyer for what she’s selling, even if it’s gently or not so gently used. So this leaves the lower value men out of the market, or having to accept goods that are so used and battered as to be not much worth spending even what little they have.

  35. deti

    And when lower value men are out of the SMP and MMP markets, the men go in search of new markets so they can purchase/rent what they want.

    Enter porn, VR sex, and prostitution. These are the only markets low value men can participate in, because barring a capital increase in their values or a collapse in the primary market, the porn/prostitution markets are the only ones they can afford to invest in.

  36. Well, when the market can no longer serve the consumers, you usually have a secondary, underground or “black” market spring up. So the questions are, where will this be, and what form will it take? It has to take some form, because there are too many customers going unserved.

    I suspect matchmaking services are only the beginning. It may go to arranged marriages and/or a return to contract-style handling of marriage covenants. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, IMO.

  37. Stop blurting out my unpublished post ideas Sigyn! =)

    In all seriousness you are right that there will always be some kind of correction when a market goes wrong. Although I wouldn’t characterize matchmaking and arranged marriages as black market per se. Although the contract style of marriage would definitely fit in that category, because the State right now would not be pleased in the slightest by it.

  38. Ton

    Cellogirl,
    Find a power lifting club, strong man team, group of throwers, find out where the MMA guys train, is there a tough murder group bear buy, or free runners? there are all manner of fit Men that are not body builders.

    Unless body builders are your type, then good luck. Most seem queer and the few who are not have ready access to the sub set of girls who dig them.

  39. Bob

    Cail, you state above that pornography is an inferior product to a real woman. That is true. But it is not the choice that many married men are faced with today. The choice is actually between pornography and celibacy within marriage. Given that choice, is it really surprising that pornography is chosen more often than not?

  40. Bob

    Opos. Sorry Donal. It serves me right for having multiple blogs open. Mea culpa.

  41. Oh, I see. Sorry, I must have misunderstood then. I’ve never heard of “disparity of cult”, but I agree, I don’t think I would use that term either to describe two different denomination Christians.

  42. There really isn’t a right word for it. But it is definitely a serious concern, at least for some. Some denominations are fairly close (Catholics and Orthodox, for example), while others may be far away. When there is a enough of a gap, then one spouse really needs to convert otherwise they could be divided in a serious way (primarily with how the children are to be raised).

  43. I completely agree because I’ve yet to see a child come out of a situation like this that wasn’t confused.

  44. Pingback: Lightning Round – 2013/09/04 | Free Northerner

  45. Bob, I agree. Or if not outright ‘celibate marriage,’ at least sex within their marriage has become too costly to afford. When the woman has become so dominant in a marriage that the only way the man gets sex is by begging and sacrificing his manhood, any alternative will start to look good.

    One of the black markets that’s developed is the “sugar baby/daddy” phenomenon. For around $5000/month (more or less depending on her hotness), a man with some wealth can hire a college girl or young working girl to be his girlfriend. It’s probably not much more than he’d spend on a genuine girlfriend he got the old-fashioned way, and it’s more straightforward: she keeps getting paid as long as he’s happy, and she keeps him happy as long as the money keeps coming.

    It’s basically prostitution, of course, and I’m not saying it’s a good thing, but I think it’s one way people are finding to get around the screwed-up sexual/marriage market.

  46. Pingback: Sign of the Times: The Old Order is Broken | Donal Graeme

  47. Pingback: Market Watch | Donal Graeme

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