Market Failure- Interlude

My latest post, Market Failure, has already generated far more comments than any other post that I have written to date. While I always hope that my posts will generate some discussion, I never anticipated that level of response. So before I address any substantive issues, I want to thank everyone for their comments. Despite the nature of the subject matter and some of the personal nature of what was discussed, the overall level of debate and discussion was relatively civil and respectful. I appreciate this, both because it is easier for me as an administrator (who doesn’t want to have to wade into the comment section to set things aright) and because it maintain my blog’s reputation as one that is respectable.

In terms of substance, a lot was addressed in the comments, most of it not dealing directly with what I discussed initially. However, most of it did concern the general subject of my post, which was the overall failures of the Marriage Market. The rampant use of Pornography, men suffering from a Madonna/Whore complex and refusing to have sex with their wives, romance novels and some of the other topics discussed are ALL signs of a dysfunctional culture. At heart there is something fundamentally broken about the way that men and women relate to one another these days. It is my belief that the core, the foundation of any society lies in a dual mechanism of how power/resources are distributed between men and women and of what is expected by and from each of the respective sexes. If this core is corrupted, then everything else will become corrupted too. And I contend that this is what has occurred. There is a deep rot within the West, and that rot manifests itself in different ways in different parts of the West. In the US it might mean that men turn to pornography after being sexually frustrated by their wives, while in a nation like Cyprus it might mean that men view sex with their wives as something done for children only, and turn to prostitution to meet carnal desires. In either case, both behaviors are symptoms of a greater dysfunction between the sexes.

I am going to address some of the topics discussed in Part 2, as well as a few others which didn’t make it in part 1. Some subjects I will cover include pornography and its consequences, networking problems, the effects of Christian disunity, how promiscuity undercuts chaste women’s MMV and the female equivalent of porn, romance novels. Hopefully I will be done by Friday and will post it that evening, or Saturday morning. Until then, feel free to continue discussing the subjects in Part 1. Or, if you have suggestions for topics of consideration, mention them here.

Update: Bryce over at Anarcho Papist is also covering the subject of market failures from the perspective of institutional dissolution.

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32 Comments

Filed under Red Pill, Sex

32 responses to “Market Failure- Interlude

  1. deti

    “At heart there is something fundamentally broken about the way that men and women relate to one another these days”

    That’s the truth.

    But a sub-topic of that notion is that men and women (myself included) seem to be making very, very little headway in reaching a mutual understanding of these issues. If we can’t reach a mutual understanding, then solutions are not possible.

    It seems–and this thread is evidence of it — that we go around and around, discussing the same things, over and over again, here and all over the ‘sphere.

    Men can’t find women for sex because they’re not hawt enough.

    Women can’t find sufficiently attractive men to commit to them.

    Women have it so easy because they can get sex anytime they want.

    Men have it so easy because no one is pushing them to put out all the time.

    I’m attracted to my husband because he’s noble and good and he wanted me.

    No you’re not attracted to your husband; you want him as a husband but you’re conflating desirability with attractiveness.

    Too many women are marrying men they’re not attracted to.

    That’s because there aren’t enough attractive men for the women who want to marry them.

    Churchianity sucks.

    Men are feminized pussies.

    Women are masculinized ballbusting bitches.

    Men watch porn and that’s a SIN!

    If men are sinning by watching porn, women are creating the conditions for it to flourish by not sexing up their husbands.

    Any woman can get a husband if she really puts her mind to it.

    No, she can’t, because the men aren’t attractive enough and they’re too pussified to ask us out.

    Any man can get a wife; he just has to man up and be more attractive.

    What’s the point of manning up and being more attractive when we can’t get jobs, we can’t even support ourselves much less a family; and you’ll just frivorce us anyway?

    And the band played on…..

  2. deti

    And you know something else?

    Every one of the statements I just listed above has merit.

    Men and women; we’re BOTH right. And we’re both wrong.

  3. I’m looking forward to the next post. I’m interested in what you have to say about networking problems. Women these days see promiscuity as sexual liberation, but having no rules or boundaries isn’t freedom–it’s dangerous.

  4. deti

    Another thought:

    Something I see time and again here is women consistently conflate desirable comfort traits with attraction/LAMPS traits. “He is noble, pure of heart, industrious and selfless. That’s attractive!”

    No, it’s not.

    Attraction is how Elspeth describes SAM: “the hotness”.

    Attraction is “I want him to take me, penetrate me, ejaculate into me, and get me pregnant”.

    [Ed: I am aiming for a PG-13 level or so of discourse here, so I am going to ask that folks try and not get too graphic in their descriptions. Deti is certainly at the line here, if not over it. So I would ask that people be mindful in the future.]

  5. Women these days see promiscuity as sexual liberation, but having no rules or boundaries isn’t freedom–it’s dangerous.

    Quite so. While initially it benefits most (not all) women by enabling them to have sexual access to higher value men than they would in a stable MMP, in the long run it is utter disaster for them.

  6. I’m interested in your next post because I’m considering these issues for the future as well as now — what do we tell the next generation? Are parents the key to really seeing this all turn around, eventually?

  7. Deep Strength

    @ Deti

    Something I see time and again here is women consistently conflate desirable comfort traits with attraction/LAMPS traits. “He is noble, pure of heart, industrious and selfless. That’s attractive!”

    I’m not really sure where the divide lies. We know that men and women think much differently than each other most of the time (logical vs emotional).

    However, is the divide because women don’t have to face responsibility as much as men?

    Is it because of their inherent solipsism and propensity for projection warping everything to their point of view?

    Is it the hypergamy?

    It seems to me that men are beating themselves against a wall trying to logically get through to women when they seemingly cannot comprehend why.

    Dannyfrom504 made a good point about perhaps making better analogies. I believe he had one blog post about the double standard and how he was attempting to explain the master key vs the lock anyone can open. The girl didn’t get it, but once he substituted in the analogy of chewed up bubble gum being shared the girl got it. Here’s the post.

    http://dannyfrom504.com/2013/03/10/bubble-gum/

    Basically, what I am getting at is that moving forward we need better analogies to make women understand points on an emotional level, because it is clear that the logical level is hit or miss based on the same old topics on the manosphere that come up every other week.

    That said the manosphere is primarily for men to take the red pill, so it still accomplishes its goal as self-aware men are persuaded by reason.

  8. deti

    donal:

    “I am aiming for a PG-13 level or so of discourse here, so I am going to ask that folks try and not get too graphic in their descriptions. Deti is certainly at the line here, if not over it. So I would ask that people be mindful in the future.]”

    Duly noted. Will rein it in.

  9. It’s funny: even though we seemed to be going off-topic on that last post, the porn explosion is actually a perfect example of the market at work. Men who were sexually frustrated (inside or outside marriage) have always had options like prostitution. But that option was costly enough in money and risk of STDs and arrest that most men didn’t take it. Risk > reward, cost > benefit. The same was true of having an affair with your neighbor’s wife: the risk of being caught and socially humiliated, divorced, etc. was higher than the reward for most men.

    But porn, though less rewarding than a real woman, lowers the apparent cost so much that far more men will use it. (Yes, there’s a spiritual and psychic cost, but that’s not very apparent.) Porn is basically free if you have an Internet connection, and there’s no chance of disease or arrest, and very little chance of being caught and embarrassed. So the cost falls below the benefit of getting sexual release “with” naked women. It’s a great example of the market at work.

    As this market continues to work, women who don’t want their husbands to use porn will figure out how to raise the cost of porn (this is what revealing their sin to the community and shaming them is about), lower the benefit of it (hard to see how they could do that), lower the cost of getting sex from the wife (don’t make him beg for it or earn it), or raise the benefit of sex with the wife (get fit if she’s not, be more fun and enthusiastic, offer it more often). Obviously, what we’re mostly seeing — and what’s encouraged by Churchians and manginas, is the first one, the shaming. But smart wives may respond to the market with the last two responses, which would be a good thing.

  10. Pingback: the curse of the alpha women | House-Wife Sexuality

  11. Elspeth

    Men and women; we’re BOTH right. And we’re both wrong.

    Deti! You’re evolving! (How’s that for a stupid feminine catch phrase?)

    Seriously though, I am glad to see you acknowledge that the current market is a dismal one for men and women alike, particularly for those committed to chastity since church attendance is really no guarantee that you’re dealing with a person committed to chastity.

  12. deti

    @ Deep Strength:

    “I’m not really sure where the divide lies. We know that men and women think much differently than each other most of the time (logical vs emotional).

    However, is the divide because women don’t have to face responsibility as much as men?

    Is it because of their inherent solipsism and propensity for projection warping everything to their point of view?

    Is it the hypergamy?

    It seems to me that men are beating themselves against a wall trying to logically get through to women when they seemingly cannot comprehend why.”

    I really think it’s a couple of things. First, women by and large really don’t think about why they’re attracted to some guy or not attracted to those other guys. They just are attracted to this guy; and not to those other guys. Doesn’t matter why to them; it just is.

    And I suspect women prefer to believe their attraction triggers are loftier and nobler than they really are. Admitting she’s attracted to Looks, Athleticism, Money, Power and/or Status makes her look shallow, superficial and stuck up. It’s much nicer – and makes her look better — to admit that she’s attracted to a man because he’s nice to kids or does housework or is devout and pious or is a hard worker of sterling character.

  13. Elsbeth, please don’t take this the wrong way (although you probably will) I can’t help but notice how you seem to equate porn viewing as a sin against chastity that’s equal or worse than premarital sex. (besides the fact that there’s nothing in Biblical doctrine to support said view) your assertions strike me as an attempt to shame virgin betas and exhult alphas who sleep around before marriage.

    If porn viewing/reading romance novels/premarital kissing makes a virgin as unchaste as an individual that engaged in premarital sex – than why should they even bother waiting until marriage? You complain about the lack of virgins in church, yet you fail to realize why they no longer exist.

  14. “Basically, what I am getting at is that moving forward we need better analogies to make women understand points on an emotional level, because it is clear that the logical level is hit or miss based on the same old topics on the manosphere that come up every other week.” -Deep Strength

    I think this is an excellent idea! I’m not sure what is in the water but in recent days blogs have been full of women being overly emotional over simple concepts because they were stated “too harshly”.

  15. Bf that isn’t what elspeth is saying. She doesn’t equate pornography with premarital sex, but does point out that it isn’t compatible with chastity

  16. But porn, though less rewarding than a real woman, lowers the apparent cost so much that far more men will use it. (Yes, there’s a spiritual and psychic cost, but that’s not very apparent.) Porn is basically free if you have an Internet connection, and there’s no chance of disease or arrest, and very little chance of being caught and embarrassed. So the cost falls below the benefit of getting sexual release “with” naked women. It’s a great example of the market at work.

    Difficult SMP or not – porn has always been around, one way or another. It’s naive to think pornography viewing is a destructive modern vice. “Girlie” publications existed way before Playboy, even during eras with strict censorship laws (If anyone’s interested research “Tijuana Bibles” – Depression era underground pornographic comic books) Archeologists dug up pornographic murals in Ancient Pompei. Heck Cavemen drew voluptuous stickwomen on walls!

  17. Elspeth

    Elsbeth, please don’t take this the wrong way (although you probably will) I can’t help but notice how you seem to equate porn viewing as a sin against chastity that’s equal or worse than premarital sex.

    I’m not taking it the wrong way, Butterfly Flower. You may want to consider if you are projecting. I will answer you directly:

    No. I do not think that viewing pornography is equal to having premarital sex. Not at all. The latter is far more damaging than the former. I don’t know what I ever said that gave you your expressed opinion.

    I said that pornography is sinful, but I don’t know when I ever compared it to pre- or extra-marital sex. But so that we are crystal clear:

    When wives claim that they are free to divorce their husbands because of porn use, equating it with actual adultery, I find that disingenuous and absurd.

  18. Bf that isn’t what Elspeth is saying. She doesn’t equate pornography with premarital sex, but does point out that it isn’t compatible with chastity

    But don’t you realize, these days in Church all “unchaste” sinners are lumped together? So virgins who view porn are shamed just as much as Christians who engage in premarital sex.

  19. Elspeth

    But don’t you realize, these days in Church all “unchaste” sinners are lumped together? So virgins who view porn are shamed just as much as Christians who engage in premarital sex.

    I rest my case. Donal explained. I explained. And still, you insist on pulling out Churchian ridicule and lump me in with it rather then taking my answer at face value.

    This, even though you cannot find any place, any time, where I have said that pornography and physical sex are equivalents.

    Why did you ask the question if you had already determined that you knew what I was thinking and would dismiss it if it didn’t line up with your preconceived idea?

  20. “The latter is far more damaging than the former. I don’t know what I ever said that gave you your expressed opinion”

    You claimed porn viewers are “unchaste” and than complained about the lack of marriageable chaste men in the church.

    Are porn viewing Christian men really that horrible? Even if you don’t think it’s right to divorce a man for viewing porn, on the previous thread you seemed to argue that Christian women shouldn’t screen ahead to avoid marrying Christian men that view porn.

    Why did you ask the question if you had already determined that you knew what I was thinking and would dismiss it if it didn’t line up with your preconceived idea?

    I didn’t dissmiss your reply or Donale. Besides I answered Donalegrame without refreshing the page I didn’t see your comment. Geeze don’t have a cow!

    This, even though you cannot find any place, any time, where I have said that pornography and physical sex are equivalents.

    Why are you getting so defensive?

    Anyway I got that impression from saying that Christian women should screen for Christian men that view porn before marriage. …Because they are not marriage worthy…?

  21. I think a lot of confusion could be avoided if there was a “unchaste” sin scale or something. Like, on a scale of men’s deodorant advertisements (they’re practically soft-core porn) to premarital sex. I guess regular porn would fall somewhere in the middle….?

  22. Elspeth

    Yes, pornography is unchaste. I stand by that. If you disagree, that’s fine. We can just disagree.

    I never said that Christian women should screen men for porn before marriage. Where did you get that? I said no. such. thing. Ever. And this is where my “defensiveness” comes from.

    That was Ellie, but you need it to be me, don’t you? I get it. It’s alright.

  23. That was Ellie, but you need it to be me, don’t you? I get it. It’s alright.

    ??? I’m sorry, than. I confused it. Did you quote her at some point? Sometimes my screen doesn’t show italics I think its because my browser is coded for viewing only Japanese.

    Yes, pornography is unchaste. I stand by that. If you disagree, that’s fine. We can just disagree.

    We don’t completely disagree. I mean I think porn sinful but I don’t really blame virgin Christian men for viewing it. I’d rather have porn viewing Christian virgins than Christian manwhores.

    Due to the vagueness of the term “unchaste” your harsh comments against “unchaste” Christian men can be interpreted many ways.

  24. Ok, I am going to intervene here and suggest that folks hold off on discussing the subject of pornography until the next post or two. BF does raise a good point about whether Chastity is a binary Yes/No matter, and it is worth a post in the future. But until then, lets reserve this for other suggestions or comments.

  25. Difficult SMP or not – porn has always been around, one way or another. It’s naive to think pornography viewing is a destructive modern vice.

    I’m going to pay you the compliment of assuming that you’re entirely clueless about porn. There’s absolutely no comparison between high-def webcam action and some naked stick figures drawn on a wall. But I’ll save more on that for Donal’s next post.

  26. Alan K

    Elspeth, seems like you’re having a rough time, lately. Some of it is my doing, so let me join in where I can fully agree, without any reservation, whatsoever:

    I said that pornography is sinful, [quite true, quite true, however…] When wives claim that they are free to divorce their husbands because of porn use, equating it with actual adultery, I find that disingenuous and absurd.

    Thank-you for this. It means a lot to me, seeing the matter in a proper context. Many thanks. Carry on…

  27. Alan K

    Or, actually, don’t carry on, as per our host’s request…

  28. deti

    I could say that Elspeth is full of crap, but I won’t.

    LOL

  29. I’m going to pay you the compliment of assuming that you’re entirely clueless about porn. There’s absolutely no comparison between high-def webcam action and some naked stick figures drawn on a wall. But I’ll save more on that for Donal’s next post.

    LOL, no, I’m not naive. It’s just when a Japanese girl hears “porn” she thinks Hentai, erotic dating Simulator cellphone video games, love pillows – not high def webcam action.

    & don’t rip naked stick figures drawn on a wall – prehistoric man’s crude representations of the female form eventually led to the creation of written language.

  30. @Deti:

    This is completely off topic and Donalegraeme may feel free to delete it: I was wondering if I can contact you ? (I guess if Donale could send me your contact information/vice versa?)

    I plan to reopen my blog to be psuedo-red pill debunking trad-con Christian teachings and how a good lot of it is dolled up feminism (literally I began doubting Christianity because of the weird fem-dom doctrines I encountered) I have some questions I’d like to ask you because you seem to be the most knowledgeable commenter in said area.

  31. I can send it if Deti agrees to your offer.

  32. Donal: Go ahead and send BF my email address.

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