Market Failure

There has always been a Marriage Marketplace (“MMP”). In days past it looked a lot different from what it is today. But it has always existed in some form or fashion. Why is this so? Perhaps it is because humans tend to be transactional and economic in their behaviors. After all, marriage is a contract of sorts (for a Christian that contract takes the form of a covenant), with an exchange of promises between the man and woman in what they will and won’t do during the marriage. Given the base transactional nature of marriage, it is hardly surprising that a marketplace would form around it. Whether it was families or the individuals themselves, bargaining of some sort went on and clearly some individuals were higher value than others. In the past titles, dowries and inheritance were the primary currency, while today things like youth, beauty, fertility, earning power and status can make someone high or low value.

However the Marriage Marketplace worked in the past, one thing is abundantly clear about how it works today: it doesn’t. The current Marriage Marketplace is broken, and is almost completely subsumed into the greater Sexual Marketplace (“SMP”) which has largely taken its place. This process has been a complete and utter disaster, whose consequences will be felt for generations. It manifests itself in many different ways, some of which I will explore in this post.

False Advertising

Free Northerner has recently taken upon himself the task of examining how well Churchians are marketing marriage these days. As you might guess, it is not a pretty sight. His post is in response to one of Dalrock’s latest, Brilliant Advertising. Here is how Free Northerner expressed his initial thoughts on seeing the video that Dalrock brought to our attention:

Instead of making marriage look like something men would want to pursue and would be willing to sacrifice for, they make it look horrible.

In the little skit in the middle, the man is the thoroughly henpecked, seemingly unhappy husband of a fat, dumpy, controlling wife. He’s so thoroughly beaten down that he’s afraid to have a little masculine bonding time with his son and the video implies that there’s something wrong with him wanting to do so.

Watching this, my main thought was ”is this really how they want to advertise marriage to men?”

My personal philosophy is that if you aren’t sure if someone is acting the way they are out of malice or stupidity, stupidity is the safer bet. More than a few in the manosphere have argued that Churchian leaders like Driscoll are actively malicious in their efforts to get men to “Man-Up and Marry those Sluts!” Others insist that they are just misguided fools, so blinded to feminist indoctrination that they don’t realize what they are doing. Myself, looking at this video, I have to agree with those who label Driscoll and his ilk fools. If their goal is to sell marriage, that video isn’t the way to do it. In fact, it is one of the best testimonies against marriage that I have seen lately.

So what is an effective marriage marketing ad? Here is how Free Northerner would go about selling marriage:

It starts with an average-looking man in a suit, someone most guys could identify with, coming home from a day at the office. He looks kind of worn-out and stressed. He parks his car, sighs a bit, then walks up to his house. He opens the door.

The first thing seen when the door opens is his non-offensively pretty wife dressed femininely. She looks up from working in the kitchen and sees he’s stressed, so she comes up to him with a smile on her face and gives him a hug and quick kiss on the lips. She takes his bag and says, “Dinner is almost ready, why don’t you sit down?” He gets into his recliner and leans back, his stress visibly fading away. She joyfully brings him a small plate of freshly made cookies and some milk. He thanks her with an expression of mingled gratitude and relief and takes the cookie. While he snacks she says, “How about later…” and bends over and whispers something in his ear while brushing her hand up his leg. The man responds with a large, expectant smile.

Cut to her calling out that dinner is ready. The man goes to the table to find a delicious home-cooked meal of steak and potatoes, his cute, happy children run up to the table. His wife wipes the dirt smudges off of one of the rascals as they sit down. The man looks on proudly as he sits at the head of the table. His wife sits to his right. She looks at him with an expectant smile, her hand on his arm, and he proudly says grace for the family.

During the prayer fade to black and end with the tagline: Worth being a man for.

The picture that Free Northerner presents is a far cry from the marriage conveyed in Driscoll’s video. As Free Northerner points out, a lot of men, Christian men especially, would sign up for this. So why don’t we see an ad like this? Martel explains it succinctly:

However, they’ll never accept it because it shows the woman being submissive, feminine, and supportive. This defeats the entire point of marriage as they see it.

That just about covers it. Driscoll’s ad showcases Marriage 2.0, which any man worth his salt can see is completely unappealing. It offers nothing to the man, and demands more than ever.  What Free Northerner is selling is Marriage 1.0. A marriage where the man is the head of the household. Where he has a lot of responsibility, but the authority to back it up. And where he is respected and admired for his efforts. Driscoll and his ilk could never make an ad in the manner of what Free Northerner suggests. From them it would be false advertising. Because what they believe in is Mutual Submission, Female Spiritual Superiority and a non-covenantal marriage.

Predatory Practices

Of course, just like any marketplace, there are predators to be found. Those who prey on the naive and the vulnerable, hoping to fleece them of their worth and leave them penniless. In our current MMP, they can take on several forms. Two that I wish to briefly cover are the Former Carousel Rider (“FCR”) and the False Christian Player (“FCP”).

The FCR is a woman who rode the carousel while she was younger (aka a slut) and then upon hitting “The Wall” (or getting close to it) decides to “settle” and marry. So she seeks out a hapless “Beta” and gets him to marry her, despite the fact that she feels no attraction or respect for him. She plays upon his desperation and likely inexperience, and uses it to her advantage. Then, after several years and probably several kids, she divorces him and tries her hand at the SMP once again.

The FCP is a cad, a player who specializes in “robbing” young Christian women of their virtue. He hangs around in Churches and among Christian circles and preys on the pure and innocent. His goal is simple: to deflower Christian women (and probably make them Alpha Widows in the process). He knows the right catchwords and phrases to put them at ease and to convince them that they can trust him. The FCP relies on their innocence and inexperience to trick them into giving up their most valuable asset, after which he fades away to play the field elsewhere.

To understand why they are marketplace predators, it is important to understand what gives men and women value in the MMP. For men, besides their attractiveness or SMV value (as determined by their LAMPS attributes), they also bring something very important to the table: commitment. For women, they bring their attractiveness/SMV value as determined by their youth and beauty, but also their character and virtue is a component as well. Both women and men are looking for as much attractiveness from a spouse as possible, but they are also looking for something completely different from the opposite sex. Women look for commitment from men, both in how much a man has to offer now and how much he will be able to offer in the future. Men look for sexual access and sexual fidelity from women; these are both heavily impacted by the N count of the individual woman. In many respects a woman’s virginity is the most valuable asset she can possess, because nothing else adds as much to her Marriage Market Value (“MMV”).

With this understanding, we can see why the FCR and the FCP are both predators: they both seek to steal what is most valuable from men and women in the MMP. The FCR, in marrying and then divorcing a “Beta” male, destroys his financial standing and thereby reduces his ability to offer commitment in the future. Essentially this cripples the man’s MMV. The FCP, on the other hand, by sleeping with a Christian woman takes her virginity and with it a huge and irreplaceable part of her MMV.

In the past these kinds of predatory practices were not accepted in respectable society. Divorce theft was nigh-well impossible, and cads were not only kept far away from most good women, but faced the prospect of a “shotgun wedding” for their actions. Sadly, neither is punished anymore. Men and women both can get away with behavior that would have been considered reprehensible a century ago. Yet another sign of a market failure.

Supply and Demand

For a while, after I had taken the Red Pill and into the first few months of this blog, I was convinced that the current MMP heavily favored chaste women. I based this opinion on what I believed to be a simple supply and demand situation. They were a limited supply, and the demand for them was much greater than the supply. Surely chaste women would have no trouble finding a husband. But now I appreciate the difficulties that such women, especially chaste Christian women, face in the current MMP.

Predators

For one they have to contend with the dangers of market predators like the FCP. There are Pick-Up Artists (“PUAs”) who specialize in going after virgins, and some of them are very, very good at it. So chaste women have to take steps to protect themselves. And those steps often restrict when and where they go, which reduces their chances of meeting a good, marriage-minded man.

Bad Programming

There is also the fact that most women these days aren’t taught how to find a good man. Like men, they are given awful advice, usually along the lines of how men want strongandindependentgirrrrrrlpower women. All of which will send a good man running far away in the opposite direction. The fine ladies at Girls Being Girls have been trying to offer advice on how to go about finding a young marriage-minded man, and I salute them for their efforts. Of course, my admiration is not entirely selfless, as I could potentially be the beneficiary of their advice to a marriage-minded young woman out there.

Abandoning the Market

But one problem that has become more apparent to me of late, and that represents a significant obstacle to chaste young women, is that many formerly marriage minded men are checking out. The cumulative effect of the divorce culture, unjust laws against men, the inequitable nature of the SMP, Nuclear Rejections and the generally unfeminine nature of most women these days has convinced a lot of men that marriage is not worth pursuing. They are disappearing from the dating/courtship scene, and probably won’t ever return. Twenty years ago my assumption about the supply/demand situation was probably correct. Men back then hadn’t quite wised up to what was going on. But things have changed; thanks to both the internet as well as everyday experiences, more and more men are giving up on marriage. Unfortunately for my Christian sisters out there, many of those men are Christians. Some have become players and PUAs themselves, while others simply go their own way in an effort to avoid as much female contact as possible.

Ultimately their motivations don’t matter. What matters is that the MMP is massively distorted when a large chunk of the remaining male population there just up and leaves. And worryingly enough, this distortion seems to be getting worse and worse. This is yet another example of a massive market failure.

End of Part 1

This post was getting long, so I decided to break it up. I should post part 2 in the next day or so.

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168 Comments

Filed under Christianity, Churchianity, LAMPS, Marriage, Red Pill, Sexual Market Place

168 responses to “Market Failure

  1. Holy typos, Batman!

    “Something CAN still be harmful without making it harmful in ways it isn’t”

    “then we need to find better arguments AS to why it isn’t to begin with”

  2. Ellie

    ” It’s pointless to demonize porn and not take on the real issue with its use.” This is the sentence that had me thinking you were calling porn a non-issue. Your explanation clarifies that. I try to summarize another person’s position and it is obviously not always correct, but to be perfectly honest, your original statement did not come with enough information to make your point clear.

  3. Ellie

    Deti, Do you move in ultra-conservative circles? The women are constantly being told to be submissive, to wear more modest clothes, and are encouraged by peer-pressure to be SAHMs who do all of the house chores and homeschool and not use birth control and have large quiverful families. That being said, very conservative women think they are being submissive when they are simultaneously being terribly disrespectful. It is “I did what he told me to when he laid down the law” but I nagged and whined and pouted to get my way both before and after. Very conservative churches do preach submission but it is often only a parody of true submission.

  4. “Because most men in church are, to put a fine point on it, emasculated pussies. They are that way because they’ve been specifically trained and taught to be emasculated pussies.

    They have low libidos from decades of training and indoctrination that their innate male sexuality is evil, bad, predatory, violent, and criminal.” -deti

    Absolutely this. And when these “good women” do “all they can” to satisfy their husbands they really aren’t because they are working within the emasculating framework you pointed out above, Deti. This is what I have been trying to say about women that drive their men away. Porn is turned to for the same reason prostitutes and mistresses are and have been for centuries- they come without all the judgment, they let men be men. In the book Seductresses by Betsy Prioleau she starts by explaining this very thing. Seductresses have been plain and even homily, they have been overweight and underweight, they have been all variety of things. But what all of these women have in common is that they offer men a place to be men unapologetically. If you are shaming your husband for wanting what he wants he isn’t going to want you. You can blame it on porn or whatever else you’d like but that’s akin to blaming the water on the ground for the rain.

  5. Ellie

    One thing that I have found to be really funny is how women from very conservative circles use “God told me to do this” in order to circumvent their husband’s wishes. It is orthodox doublespeak.

  6. deti

    “I was really attracted to my husband when we first met and got married. I would have done anything for him…”

    Really? Perhaps I’m reading too much into what you said previously. But in any event, what you said was:

    “if my husband had not been interested in me, I probably would not have gotten another offer of marriage. Ugly young men want a beauty for a wife, they soak themselves in porn, and putting out the effort to court ugly young women just takes too much energy. Especially if there is no sex involved.”
    I take that to mean that you didn’t consider yourself very attractive. You called yourself “plain” and “125 pounds”. Which to me means not overweight, and neither ugly nor pretty. Just smack in the middle. Average.

    Yet you refer to “ugly young men” who “soak themselves in porn”. I took that to be an oblique reference to your husband. Nothing too attractive about an ugly, porn soaked young man.

    Begging the question: What did you find attractive about him? What made you burn with passion for him? Because frankly, I don’t see it in your descriptions here. I see your words describing two people who perceived themselves to be low value; and you perceiving your husband as low value (“ugly young porn soaked men”).

    What am I missing?

  7. Ellie

    A man with a lot of responsibilities and children will enjoy a place where he has no obligations to someone else- where he can be selfish (not saying this in a derogatory way) and just experience pleasure. So a woman with a large family can often not see this “no obligations” as a genuine need and fail to provide a husband a place where he can really relax and unwind and accept free gifts – she may not even be able to provide it.

  8. Ellie

    Deti, you are missing the “ugly young women” part of the quote.

  9. Ellie

    Deti, you refuse to take on face value that my husband was attractive to me. I am curious as to why that is such a sticking point for you.

  10. deti

    “Deti, you are missing the “ugly young women” part of the quote.”

    Ellie, that has exactly NOTHING to do with whether you were attracted sexually and physically to your husband. Ugly young women want George Clooney (or Denzel, or Clive Owen, for the Elspeths in our midst) just as much as the pretty hot women do.

    The difference is that pretty and hot can get George and Denzel; whereas ugly cannot.

  11. deti

    “Deti, you refuse to take on face value that my husband was attractive to me. I am curious as to why that is such a sticking point for you.”

    Because you’re not explaining why. You’re not telling me what traits he had that were attractive. Not “desirable” traits. ATTRACTIVE traits.

  12. Ellie

    Deti, I also think that you can comprehend the perspective that I had as a young single- I didn’t think any man would be interested in me (I have numerous serious health problems). You cannot understand how grateful I felt to know that a man wanted my company for life, wanted to take care of me, wanted me. I looked for all of the good traits in him, saw his nobility of soul, and loved him.

  13. deti

    “Deti, Do you move in ultra-conservative circles?”

    I most certainly do. I am intimately familiar with the language, the culture, the customs, and the practices.

    I am also familiar with churchian culture as well.

  14. deti

    By the way, Ellie, I’m not demanding that you explain yourself further in this public forum. I am trying to be direct and forthright, but also diplomatic and detached at the same time. So if you’re not comfortable responding, by all means, don’t.

  15. Deep Strength

    I agree with deti here. Something isn’t sitting right.

    A woman attracted to her husband very rarely talks ill of him and should be easily able to name qualities of why she respects him. Yet that isn’t happening.

    Sounds like the classic “I love you but I’m not in love you.”

  16. Ellie

    Actually, Deti, I was trying to figure out how to word that exact thing- it has simply gotten into areas that are too private. It has been a fun conversation though. I will leave you with this though- gratitude can build attraction. When I focus on the lovely things about my husband, he is my hero and unmatchable. Everyone, no matter how plain, has a few good points… and the easiest way to tear down attraction is a critical heart. Sometimes rose colored glasses are intentional.

  17. deti

    @Elspeth:

    “plain woman would not have had other (read: BETTER) marriage offers.

    I didn’t read that. I thought she literally meant no other offers at all. Interpreting that to mean that she wasn’t happy with the choice she made is a bit of a stretch.

    So what? Should she have not married? I didn’t get that at all from her commentary; that she isn’t attracted to her husband.

    Honestly, those of us who aren’t raving beauties do wrestle with this kind of thing, the fear that it won’t happen. I struggled with it too, albeit I suspect to a lesser degree than Ellie did and for slightly different reasons.

    You’re very hard on the womenfolk, Deti. The majority of the time we fully deserve it. I think you may be a little bit off on this one though.”

    I don’t at all think that Ellie shouldn’t have married her husband. Given how she described herself and her husband I think they both did well for themselves.

    Those of us men who aren’t George Clooney wrestle with this too – the possibility that no one will ever love us, that we will be incels for the rest of our lives. I struggled with it too.

    I don’t mean to be hard on the womenfolk. I do confess, Elspeth (and this is not directed at you, but in general) that I’ve grown quite weary of the assertion that plain women get ignored, get no attention, get nothing in terms of male attention, dates, and sexual interest. It is just flat out FALSE. Again, to paraphrase Cail Corishev, if a girl is not ugly or fat, and isn’t hiding and isn’t completely socially inept, she’ll get asked out. Might not be the ones she wants, might not be the best ones. But she WILL get SOME interest.

    Plain girls get attention. It’s just not from the men they want.

  18. What I said wasn’t that porn isn’t sinful, driving your man to it is; — MargeryM

    I think there’s a tendency to forget that a situation can be sinful for multiple people for multiple reasons. So when you say a woman “drives her man to porn,” that sounds to many people like you’re giving him an excuse, as if saying one person is a perpetrator automatically makes the other person an innocent victim. I know that’s not how you mean it, but it’s a common reaction.

    For the record, yes, porn is sinful, regardless of whether you’re driven to it. And withholding sex from your spouse is sinful, whether it drives him to porn or not.

  19. I also think that you can comprehend the perspective that I had as a young single- I didn’t think any man would be interested in me (I have numerous serious health problems). You cannot understand how grateful I felt to know that a man wanted my company for life, wanted to take care of me, wanted me. I looked for all of the good traits in him, saw his nobility of soul, and loved him.

    I suffer from a serious chronic illness (Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis) so I can understand how you may have felt when single. When I was first diagnosed with JRA I thought “would a guy love a broken girl like me?”
    – But it turned men weren’t bothered by my illness. I began dating a wonderful man and now I’m happily married 😉

    Did you ever think, perhaps your husband uses porn to alleviate burdening you with sex? If you are not feeling well, maybe he wouldn’t want uncaring by asking for sex.

  20. deti

    By the way, readers, when I talk about a woman’s attraction for a man, I’m talking the LAMPS characteristics he has that she wants. I’m NOT talking about desirable traits. I’m talking about her burning for passion with him, her wanting to have sex with him. I’m talking about:

    –she likes the way he looks.
    –she likes his athleticism.
    –he is able to command monetary resources.
    –he is confident in his own skin, and dominant in the circles he moves in.
    –he has a skill, a position, a competency or proficiency that gives him standing and status among other men.

    I an NOT talking about:
    –kindness
    –purity of heart
    –noble intent
    –reverence
    –industriousness
    –loyalty, fidelity
    –punctuality
    –commitment-minded
    –sensitivity

    Whether we like it or not, whether the woman is Christian or not, attraction is governed by LAMPS. It is NOT governed by desirability.

    And we also have learned that in today’s day and age, the most successful marriages are those in which she is strongly sexually attracted to him. NOT that she likes his “desirable” traits. But that she is ATTRACTED to him. That she thinks, as Elspeth puts it, her husband is “the hotness”. That she wants to get naked with him. That she wants him to touch her, that she wants him to penetrate her, that she wants him to take her sexually, that she wants him to get her pregnant, that she wants to have his babies.

    THAT’s what I mean by attraction.

  21. Amanda

    Enjoyed your post! Long time lurker here.

    “It isn’t just porn, though. It’s that girls are taught not to value chastity and parents look the other way when it’s clear that relationships are heading in the wrong direction. They are often complicit in their kids’ casting away of sexual restraints.”

    What to do about this? I have very young children now, but this concerns me to no end, because most of the families in my very conservative church seem to do a 180 when the kids hit their teens and begin trotting bf/gf to church. One family home schools to high school, and the teen daughter has been in public school for a year; now she has a bf she brings to church. She’s barely 16 and not getting married any time soon, so why the dating?

    I understand about “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” but I actually don’t think the advice in the book is all that bad per se, just that it has been applied in an extreme manner in some circles. I plan on having my boys read it though. I actually had a courtship with no kissing, followed by an explosive wedding night, so — ymmv.

  22. This is getting to be quite an impressive thread. I only really have a response to a small part of it though.

    If that girl walked around with her head down and her unkempt hair in her face, avoiding eye contact, wearing frumpy clothes that hide her figure, it’s possible that she wouldn’t get asked out much.

    I can attest that this is true, in high school I was exactly that. Add to that the fact that anyone who did manage to make eye contact with me was greeted by a hollow stare that was the result of insomnia and paranoia. I didn’t get asked out at all.

    I got more comfortable in college, but despite having many guy friends who adored my company and assured me I’m attractive, intelligent and have a loving heart, none of them would touch me with a ten foot pole. Though one has tried to set me up with his friends in the past.

    My church hasn’t been a great hunting ground either, between my tastes skewing a bit older and essentially all the men over the age of 25 being married, I’m left with a largely non-existent candidate pool.

    Why I’m explaining all that I don’t know, given that I’m going to be off the market for the foreseeable future and what will happen if/when I do return to the market is entirely unknown. So I guess just take it as an anecdote and don’t offer me advice?

  23. Well, I’ve finally caught up with the comments. At this point I think I will probably address them in another post then here in the comment section, given how much there is to cover. Hopefully I will be able to get that out later tonight.

  24. Alan K

    Whatever porn does or does not cause, can we all agree (the Christians here I mean), that it is sinful?

    Elspeth, I’ll be more than happy to answer your question, so long as you will answer mine. Pick any of these that you like:

    Can we agree that “romance novels” are sinful?
    Can we agree that “checkout aisle magazines” are sinful?
    Can we agree that “daytime television” is sinful?

    All of these items are designed to be at least mildly addictive and feed the lust of the flesh and the eyes. What say you?

  25. Elspeth

    I say you’re absolutely right, for the most part. Of course, Women’s Day, Cook’s Illustrated and Good Housekeeping are also on the checkout aisle.

    So I’ll concede numbers 1 and 3, and say the answer to the second option is “it depends.”

  26. gratitude can build attraction.

    Unfortunately it does nothing for arousal.

  27. Alan K

    I say you’re absolutely right, for the most part.

    That’s the ticket. Those blanket statements about “sinful activity” get a little sticky, especially when it’s something that we see as partly useful and or important. There are absolutes in right and wrong, but you provided my answer to perfection:

    I say you’re absolutely right, for the most part.

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  33. Ton

    As for the man up and marry, man up and do the right thing bit regarding women….. No. Never again. Tried it, it was devastating to my soul and bank account. From now on, I will do what is in my best self interests and what is legally wise. Marrying again is neither.

  34. Are the Christian’s “best self interests” to be measured by worldly terms, or God’s?

  35. I don’t mean to be hard on the womenfolk. I do confess, Elspeth (and this is not directed at you, but in general) that I’ve grown quite weary of the assertion that plain women get ignored, get no attention, get nothing in terms of male attention, dates, and sexual interest. It is just flat out FALSE.

    Similarly, I grow weary of the assertion that “men who aren’t George Clooney” get ignored, get no attention, get nothing in terms of female attention. It is also just flat out FALSE. Outside of high school, I have never met a male virgin ((except my husband, which I handled that for him)).

    They get attention. Believe me, they get attention. There’s a girl right over there whose heart soars every time he walks into the room–but because society has this expectation that “nice girls wait to be asked”, she will never make the move. And he won’t, either, because SHE’S NOT ON HIS RADAR. They’d suit each other perfectly–she’d fly to the moon and back to please him–but for some reason he’s not interested in her, so it doesn’t even occur to him that he’s getting attention from her (i.e., it’s not the kind of attention he wants, from the kind of girl he expects).

    Then she marries a monster because this is her last exit before Catville, and at least he noticed her, and her old object of admiration points and says, “Now SEE? That’s the kind of man girls want! I never had a chance!”

    It’s a complicated world, Deti, because there are people in it. Nobody’s experiences are universal or even what they appear to be, because nobody can see everything. Almost everyone gets shafted in this out-of-control market which encourages inflated and skewed expectations. And guess what? People lie about their experiences and choices after the fact, especially when they’re afraid someone is going to judge them for it.

  36. Similarly, I grow weary of the assertion that “men who aren’t George Clooney” get ignored, get no attention, get nothing in terms of female attention. It is also just flat out FALSE. Outside of high school, I have never met a male virgin ((except my husband, which I handled that for him)).

    We exist Sigyn. We are out there. And the truth is that you probably did meet them, but those same qualities that left them a virgin also left them as unmemorable. You forget about them after you met them, or you never even noticed them to begin with.

    Now, your next point about attention is perhaps true. Most people probably get at least some attention. But it may not be the attention they want. Your comment forced me to think back to the attention I have received over the years from women. And most, if not all, was from women who were not marriageable. I suspect that the same in reverse is true for women as well.

  37. I believe you, Donal. And it’s possible that there were several men who were virgins, but it never came to my attention because they never expressed an interest in me. I just find it difficult to buy the whole “most men are incels” thing, considering how the extreme majority of men of my acquaintance have at some point had a girlfriend move in with them and/or were married, and I know for a fact certain I haven’t been moving around in the circles of the Clooneyesque.

    (Which, by the way? George Clooney is gross. He’s not masculine, he’s a liberal, he comes off as unpleasant, and he’s not very bright. Why do guys always bring him up like he’s some kind of sex god? *shudder*)

  38. The stats do seem to back up the argument though Sigyn. Part of it might also be that those men who are virgins tend to operate in segments of society with very little female participation and involvement. You might never ever meet them because of that isolation, which contributes to their problem (although only somewhat, the imbalance that is the SMV is also a factor).

  39. I dunno, Donal. I tend to be skeptical of anything that I can’t verify for myself, and over 50% of men being lifetime out-of-luck doesn’t sound right. I mean, someone did put about the “statistic” that 28% of children born in the U.S. are cuckold children, and that turned out to be incorrect.

    Perhaps I’m not understanding what is meant by “most” when someone says it. Is it hyperbole again?

  40. deti

    “Similarly, I grow weary of the assertion that “men who aren’t George Clooney” get ignored, get no attention, get nothing in terms of female attention. It is also just flat out FALSE. Outside of high school, I have never met a male virgin ((except my husband, which I handled that for him)).’

    [Ed: Comment edited for being unnecessarily provocative.]

    First of all, I’ve met many, many male virgins outside of high school. It’s not something most men talk about because they’re universally shamed for it. So, respectfully, you’re wildly incorrect about that. For you to assert there’s no such thing as a male virgin because you’ve never met one is, well, silly. Funny how you deride me for writing about my experiences, yet you write floridly about yours as if they are undeniable truth.

    I would commend to you M3’s popular essay, “Confessions of an Incel”. Go to whoism3.wordpress.com and read it.

    No one in the manosphere makes wild exaggerations like “50% of men are incels for life”. That’s ridiculous, and you should know that. What IS asserted, and what IS true, is that there are many men who go through long, long periods — months and years- of involuntary celibacy.

    As for your Sixteen Candles scenario, well, I’m sure it happens. In this SMP there’s nothing stopping her from making her attraction known. Actually, he’s not getting ATTENTION from her. She’s not giving him any attention. She likes him from afar. That’s not attention. That’s just unrequited, unexpressed attraction.

    It’s far less likely she marries a monster than it is she marries someone who’s not quite right for her, who’s unattractive in his own right, and who can’t maintain her interest. Or, perhaps you think most of the men who frequent the manosphere are monsters.

  41. deti

    “(Which, by the way? George Clooney is gross. He’s not masculine, he’s a liberal, he comes off as unpleasant, and he’s not very bright. Why do guys always bring him up like he’s some kind of sex god? *shudder*)”

    This seems like casting pearls, but….

    George Clooney is often cited around these parts because he is the archetype of the self-actualized, alpha male. He has classic male good looks (tall, dark, handsome) and a trim athletic body. He is a multi millionaire, he’s an actor in the highest echelons of the profession, he’s world-famous, and he is extremely high status. His personality exudes an easy charm. He is at ease with himself and other people; he never seems off balance or uncomfortable. He commands attention from men and women, the wealthy and the powerful, wherever he goes. When he talks, people listen. (The fact that he is wrong politically and economically has nothing to do with it — the fact that he is who he is is the relevant matter.) He has dated a string of very, very attractive women. He can attract and hold the interest of the highest status women.

    Harrison Ford is too old.

    Johnny Depp is too weird.

    Barack Obama is too effeminate.

    Bill Clinton is too sleazy.

    Matt Damon is married.

    Mark Wahlberg’s past is too checkered.

    Justin Bieber — are you kidding?

    Robin Thicke is too trendy.

  42. deti

    I also tend to be skeptical of anything I can’t verify for myself. How is any guy supposed to verify that he’s “getting attention” from some wallflower who likes him from afar and never speaks up and never makes her feelings known?

    The idea that she’s not on his radar is ludicrous. At least 50% of girls, and more like 70%, are on his radar. All. The. Time.

    “They’d suit each other perfectly–she’d fly to the moon and back to please him”

    Projection. She wouldn’t suit him if she doesn’t meet his attraction floor, in other words, he has to be attracted to her. The fact that she’d do anything for him means exactly jack squat if she’s not pretty enough. And he won’t suit her if he’s not confident and dominant enough, and satisfies her LAMPS vectors. So, no, flying to the moon and back won’t get the job done if he’s not attracted to her.

    Why is it that women arrogate to themselves the right to decide what men should want in a woman? Why is it that women smugly decide that she’d do anything for him, and therefore she’s attractive and would suit him perfectly?

  43. Before I address Sigyn’s and Deti’s latest comments, I wish to remind everyone that this blog is a place for civil and respectful debate. Personal attacks and insults are not acceptable by anyone (except me). And I will be the judge of what is acceptable or not. I will not hesitate to modify a comment, delete a comment or ban someone if I believe they are out of line.

    Now that I have that over with…

    @ Sigyn

    I just find it difficult to buy the whole “most men are incels” thing, considering how the extreme majority of men of my acquaintance have at some point had a girlfriend move in with them and/or were married, and I know for a fact certain I haven’t been moving around in the circles of the Clooneyesque.

    You are changing the goalposts here Sigyn. Before you were talking about male virgins, not incels. The two are not the same. A man can be an incel for a long period of time and not be a virgin. Likewise, a man might be a virgin and not be an incel because he chose to live a celibate life (like a monk). I’m not sure that I would qualify as an Incel at this point, given that I am pretty sure I could capitalize on my changed situation to have sex with some of the young females I know. In a way my celibacy is more voluntary, because I have a choice, and I chose not to have sex out of wedlock, which leaves me adrift until a find a woman worthy and willing to marry.

    It seems that you are basing most of your argument on your own experiences. Now, anecdotal evidence has its merit, but if you are going to include your own experiences you need to accept those of other people as well.

    I tend to be skeptical of anything that I can’t verify for myself, and over 50% of men being lifetime out-of-luck doesn’t sound right.

    Yeah, that number is almost certainly bunk. I doubt its higher than 25%, although it could be for younger men (who are that much more likely to GTOW from my experiences). I suspect its actually much lower than that. At least, when we are talking about male virgins. Incels are harder to measure.

    @ Deti

    Why is it that women arrogate to themselves the right to decide what men should want in a woman? Why is it that women smugly decide that she’d do anything for him, and therefore she’s attractive and would suit him perfectly?

    Sounds almost like women love idealistically…

  44. deti

    donal:

    Your place, your rules, and I’ll respect them. I do want to point out, Sigyn came here and disagreed with my comment, calling me out by handle. She decided to come here to poke me with a stick. I did no such thing to her.

  45. I understand that. I spoke up to prevent further escalation more than anything else.

  46. Deti, after your own statements in other places about how disagreement is not disrespect, and how hyperbole is perfectly acceptable, etc., you accusing me of “coming here to poke you with a stick” is really out of line. I come here for Donal’s blog posts. That you come here is only tangentially relevant insofar as I respond to you on occasion. It is NOT ABOUT YOU. You don’t get to be my archnemesis. Sorry. I know it means a lot to you. *wink*

    “Before you were talking about male virgins, not incels. The two are not the same. A man can be an incel for a long period of time and not be a virgin.”

    Hmm, perhaps I was misunderstanding the term. Yes, I can buy the notion of a man going without for a protracted time, and I have to admit that part of this is from my own experience. I guess the hyperbole got in my eyes. *grin*

    “In this SMP there’s nothing stopping her from making her attraction known.”

    Deti, there are still those old-fashioned little memes floating around, which I keep hearing complained about, and those include the ones that go “Nice girls wait to be asked” and “Men don’t like to be pursued”. It may not be a hard rule anymore, but it’s an expectation that’s still in place ((and speaking as one who spent almost a year waiting for the man of her dreams to say something…)). The SMP may have no expectations, but the old ones never quite go away. It’s all horribly unfair, but that’s how it is.

    “Actually, he’s not getting ATTENTION from her. She’s not giving him any attention. She likes him from afar. That’s not attention. That’s just unrequited, unexpressed attraction.”

    It’s incompletely expressed attraction. She does things for him. She speaks kindly to him, a little more warmly than most, and compliments him as much as she feels comfortable doing. She remembers his birthday and makes him a cupcake. When someone does him wrong, she takes his side fervently. After they meet, she may doll herself up a little. She may even go so far as to suggest “hanging out together, oh just casually, later this week”–and if he asks if it will be just the two of them, she quickly offers to invite some other friends because “nice girls wait to be asked” and “men don’t want to be pursued”. And the whole time, she’s just thinking to herself, “I like you so much, ask me, ask me, I’m right here and I’ll say yes, can’t you see I’ll say yes?”

    You see, Deti? It’s the same thing you’re saying we plain girls do: because someone doesn’t actively WANT to be in a relationship with the person giving attention, or because it’s not the kind of attention he expects, it doesn’t count as attention.

  47. deti

    “That you come here is only tangentially relevant insofar as I respond to you on occasion. It is NOT ABOUT YOU.”

    Sigyn, you come to this blog, specifically to this post of Donal’s, and you single me out BY NAME after going after me with both barrels and both fist swinging at SSM’s, and you’re saying you’re not poking me, and it’s not about me? RIIIIIGHT. Pull this leg and it plays Jingle Bells.

    Another thing I’d like to point out, which seems to have gotten lost on you, is that upthread quite a ways I agreed that unattractive people in general, and plain women in particular, have a very very hard time in this SMP. Or because my concession to this point doesn’t fit with your narrative, you ignore it.

    ““Nice girls wait to be asked” and “Men don’t like to be pursued”. It may not be a hard rule anymore, but it’s an expectation that’s still in place ((and speaking as one who spent almost a year waiting for the man of her dreams to say something…)). The SMP may have no expectations, but the old ones never quite go away. It’s all horribly unfair, but that’s how it is.”

    Those rules don’t apply anymore. Any girl who wants something is going to have to bear some of the costs of courtship and some of the risks, and that includes risks of rejection. The days of girls standing around waiting for Prince Charming to take her to his mansion in the sky are over. If she wants something she’s going to have to be overt and intentional about it.

    “It’s incompletely expressed attraction.”

    Ah. Well, that’s different from what you said before. Those goalposts are getting further and further away every time you write. Looks like you’re not immune to the same rhetorical trickery you accuse others of employing.

    The guy is obviously out of her league. All I can say is, if she’s smacking him in the face with IOIs, and he’s not responding, it’s because he isn’t interested. And if he isn’t interested, he’s out of her league. If he’s out of her league, she’s not physically attractive enough for him. She doesn’t meet his attraction floor.

    Remember what Cail Corishev said: if a girl is not ugly or fat, and isn’t hiding and isn’t completely socially inept, she’ll get asked out. Might not be the ones she wants, might not be the best ones. But she WILL get SOME interest.

    That’s more than a lot of men get. And a cupcake here, a fervent defense there, is not the same as getting asked out and promises of time and investment.

  48. deti

    “It’s incompletely expressed attraction. She does things for him.”

    The obvious point in all this, that Sigyn is trying to make but didn’t, is that because she feels this way about him and does these things for him, he should, he MUST, be attracted to her and he MUST ask her out and he MUST give her a relationship. Because she does these things for him and she likes him, he owes it to her to ask her out. He owes her his time, money and resources because, well, she wants them.

    That’s the clear import of Sigyn’s soliloquy here.

  49. Deti, seriously. Quit the personal stuff. I’m not obligated to ignore you after having been assigned responsibility for your hurt feelings elsewhere, nor does it obligate me to handle you with kid gloves when I do interact with you. If I disagree with something you say, I am going to point out that I am disagreeing with something you say, and I am going to explain myself. Stop taking everything so personally.

    Now, as to the “rules don’t apply anymore” thing, that’s great. Wonderful. However, not everyone has got the memo yet. It’s the way it is. Those who will adapt will do so.

    Furthermore, I never said that a man has an obligation to become attracted if a woman gives him IOI’s, nor was that implied. I was pointing out that a girl may be more subtle, especially if she has been told that “nice girls wait to be asked”. His lack of attraction does not mean that he does not have her attention. Men may get more attention than they realize; they just may not get attention from the girls they necessarily want. Do not want != does not exist. I thought I made that clear.

    And a cupcake here, a fervent defense there, is not the same as getting asked out and promises of time and investment.

    No, it’s not, but then again, I’m not sure why you’re looking for traditionally masculine expressions of interest from a feminine creature.

    And thus we are demonstrating why the market fails: unreasonable expectations and misinterpretations.

  50. deti

    “Stop taking everything so personally.”

    I am taking nothing personally; nor is this about hurt feelings. I’m pointing out you’ve singled me out for disagreement and some sort of “special treatment” in two distinct fora now. Perhaps there is something about my writing style or argumentation technique you find interesting or repellent. Whatever it is, you seem to be following me around for the purpose of challenging me and my viewpoints. Fine.

    “And thus we are demonstrating why the market fails: unreasonable expectations and misinterpretations.”

    This, I agree with, on both sides. Too many men attracted to girls who are out of their league; same with girls attracted to the highest status men. The difference is that this marketplace is set up to favor women and disadvantage men. It’s set up to allow girls consequence-free sex. Men, on the other hand, learn very quickly to lower their standards. Women don’t learn that quite so quickly or painfully, simply because this SMP is set up to insulate women from that.

    “I’m not sure why you’re looking for traditionally masculine expressions of interest from a feminine creature.”

    As I said, in this SMP and MMP if women want something, they’ll have to be more overt and intentional about it. They’ll have to make it easy for this crop of men. Yeah, men want to do the pursuing; but women are going to have to make it crystal clear that they’re interested, and they’ll have to lower their standards too and be happy with what they can get.

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