At What Price Knowledge?

I think it can be universally agreed upon, or at least the closest thing to it, that what we know as the Manosphere today would not exist without the Pickup Artist community.  The combined hours of effort spent by those in the PUA community to make empirical observations of women, experiment with different techniques and then record the results must be mind-boggling. Whether it was profit which drove them, or a desire to show off,  doesn’t really matter. Were it not for the dissemination of that knowledge by PUAs (what is commonly referred to as “Game”) the “Red Pill” would yet remain the realm of The Matrix alone. Those of us who are devoted to the task of piecing together the inner nature of women owe them a debt of gratitude for the collective knowledge that they have made available to us.

Yet it is all too easy to forget the source of that data. Information on female behaviors like fitness testing, serial monogamy and “bitch shields” was acquired only as a result of sexual immorality on a truly staggering scale. For those of us in the “Christian Manosphere”, we need to be frank with ourselves that there is a moral cost associated with this knowledge. Having been in these parts of a while, I’ve noticed that most members of the Christian Manosphere rarely stop and consider the moral ramifications of using this knowledge, which was procured by conduct which is anything but Christ-like.

That isn’t to say that there aren’t those who object to “Game,” of course. But what I find interesting is that many of those who oppose “Game” do so based less on moral principles and more based on the idea that the whole thing is snake oil medicine. I happen to believe there is some truth to the charges; more than a few of the PUA “Game” techniques do smack of this. And honestly, I think a lot of what “Game” teaches is really about building up your Confidence, which is absolutely essential for you to have a strong Power value. But based on my personal experiences I can vouch for at least a few of the “tricks” that are out there. And others have echoed the same as well. My suspicion is that that much of the resistance over the efficacy of “Game” is really about the source, not the product.

Setting aside the practical value of “Game”, there are serious ethical questions raised by the use of this knowledge:

Is it right for a Christian to learn from the sinful behavior of others as part of his plan to get married?

Should Christians pass on this information to other Christians, knowing that some believers may ultimately use it to sin?

Would it be wrong for a Christian to purchase products and/or services from the PUA community, or recommend them to others, knowing that this might encourage yet further sinful behavior?

—————————————————————————————————————————

The first question I find easy enough to answer, once I re-write it to this: Is it right for a Christian to learn from the past sinful behavior of others in order to find, attract and keep a wife? Understanding that you can’t do anything about the past behavior of others relieves much of the moral burden. Also, placing everything in light of the objective of marrying, and staying married to, a good  woman makes it clear that you aren’t using this knowledge for evil ends. Whatever evil was responsible for the development of the knowledge you use has already been done, and you cannot change this fact. But what you can do is use it for a greater end.

The second question isn’t difficult either. If someone, upon learning about the Red Pill and picking up some skill and knowledge with Game, were to go out and use it to sin, then he was never a believer to begin with. He called himself a Christian but was really a Churchian. In his heart and his mind he had already sinned or planned on sinning, which means that any fault or blame lies with him, and not with whomever introduces him to the Red Pill (unless of course the teacher knew his true nature beforehand).

The last question is a lot trickier than the others. I am inclined to think that any contribution financially would be relatively insignificant, and not enough by itself to encourage further sin. But it is a possibility that can’t be ignored. Which is why I think it really comes down to a balancing test: is the good that comes about from the use of these services greater than whatever evil might result? I would think that in most cases the good would outweighs the bad, but this is never something which we can be certain of.

I got to thinking about this subject after reading Martel’s latest post, wherein he mentions some of his past misdeeds. What struck me about his post was his frank discussion of those failings and how he hoped to find ways to use them for good. Martel’s post, and others like it, reminds us that the use of Red Pill knowledge always carries with it a great burden. It was purchased at terrible price, and for those of us who belong to the Moralist school we must use it responsibly.  Of course, let us not forget that the PUA’s didn’t create our immoral culture; they merely developed the tools to best benefit from it. In the end, should we learn how to use those same tools to make better tools with which to redeem our culture, then I for one will sleep soundly at night, my conscience secure and untroubled.

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21 Comments

Filed under Christianity, LAMPS, Red Pill

21 responses to “At What Price Knowledge?

  1. I would say that some of the best lessons in the bible were those that you see and learn from sinners. In some of those, they repented, and some of them they did not. Yet examples of both are there.

    I can tell you first hand that game principles work on Christian women, they simply have to be re-purposed to the situation. Well, many of them do, not all. I’m not good enough at it yet to be able to constantly do it, because I’m still adapting to Catholicism while flirting with Christian women, but you can see their eyes light up when you get it right.

  2. I believe that St. Paul mentions in one of his letters that the Old Testament often serves as a valuable showcase for what not to do as a believer.

  3. There’s a piece at The Freeman that states –

    For most of the first decade or so of the World Wide Web, the only profitable business was that most mundane of human activities: sex. Adult websites provided perhaps the only consistently profitable business in cyberspace; they also pioneered many of the technology-meets-commerce innovations that are now part of our everyday web experience. For example, adult sites were among the first to master streaming video and to figure how best to use credit cards securely. They launched a number of the consumer-friendly data-tracking processes that are now standard at places like Amazon.com. Futurists saw the technology but overlooked that its biggest impact would come through its combination with commerce, and that this combination would be driven by the demand for sexual content.

    http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/why-do-futurists-get-so-much-wrong#axzz2cuwPsNCo

    In this case and the case of Game knowledge, both were driven because the proper moral avenues of behavior – meet a girl, get married, raise a family – were being increasingly blocked. Like you said above, the PUAs didn’t create the immoral culture, they responded to it. In amoral, blunt terms… market correction always comes. The problem is that the ones who sow aren’t always the ones who reap – the bill often comes due to those who get to the party late.

    I’ve considered introducing the manosphere, primarily the Christian areas, to a few guys I’ve known who desperately need Game, but I haven’t done it because I don’t want them to go down Roissy or Roosh’s path (not to mention, I seriously doubt they would listen anyway). There is one guy who is a solid Christian, but I suspect he has other issues in play than just lack of social skills, so I’m really hesitant to just stick my nose in.

  4. @ nightsky: For your friend, I’d recommend easing him in with sites like this one, alphagame, dalrock, free northermer, etc.

    Also, porn accelerated the development of moving pictures and determined that VHS would win over betamax.

    And lots of the world’s best military strategists have been pretty awful people, but to refuse to study Rommel, Alexander the Great, etc. because of what sorts of people they are would merely render the righteous impotent in the face of unrighteousness.

    To me, it’s a case of rendering unto Caesar. The female sex drive is carnal, but ignoring it merely means that the very men we need to reproduce most won’t reproduce at all.

    Romans 8:28: “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.” “All things” includes the writings of PUA’s, as long as we keep our “his purpose” first in our lives.

  5. The Ringmistress

    A few quick thoughts.

    1) There’s an obvious analogy here to the medical knowledge gained by Nazi torture of prisoners. It is no longer unethical for an EMT to use the knowledge gained to save a person from hypothermia, but it was unethical for those who discovered it to not burn it before it became common knowledge.

    The beauty of your position is that because of the internet, we can learn from the evil mistakes and deliberate actions of others through a media so pervasive that it was never secret knowledge that could be done away with. A far a moral dilemmas go, it’s reasonably easy casuistry.

    2) Could this information gained in other ways? I’d argue that much of it can be. It really would be a sin to expose most of the ‘sphere to my 10 year old son. Thankfully I don’t have to. My husband and I are taking him (and our other children) through the Great Books (although we’re starting with the ground work like fairy stories and classic children’s literature). You can see Mr Bennet bumping back on fitness tests in Pride and Prejudice. You discover that Paris was the original PUA in the Illiad. Heck, I’ve found good stuff in Beatrix Potter. The long and short is that a proper education and a good father will go a long way to solving this problem for future generations.

  6. In many cases, the good lessons to be learned are some of the most valuable things to be gained from evil actions.

  7. Sis

    To me, it’s a case of rendering unto Caesar. The female sex drive is carnal, but ignoring it merely means that the very men we need to reproduce most won’t reproduce at all.

    Brilliant

  8. @ Ringmistress

    Could this information gained in other ways? I’d argue that much of it can be.

    I’m not so sure about that. Sure the classics contain some great information on women, but it is diffuse knowledge. The PUAs simply uncovered so much info, so quickly, and recorded it so well, the classics really can’t compete. Most important, they concentrated that info and clothed it in the harsh pragmatism of reality. One could always question how accurate the classics were, but there can be no doubt about the info on women the PUAs revealed. Perhaps it was known before, but there was always uncertainty and gaps. There are far less of them now. Of course, the PUAs have perhaps reached their limit, which is a topic I hope to cover soon.

  9. “And honestly, I think a lot of what “Game” teaches is really about building up your Confidence, which is absolutely essential for you to have a strong Power value.”

    Yup.

    Because this society is nothing but tearing down men’s confiedence and value. Even the churches don’t really address this issue all too much. At least when I read stuff from PUAs it was the first time I saw what value men ACTUALLY have.

    Naturally men have higher value than women. That’s why women have the hypergamy. But now women are brainwashed all the time that they somehow have higher value based off the fact they were graced with a vagina.

  10. You don’t even have to go to the classics; modern entertainment includes a lot of red-pill truth. I wrote a while back about the original Star Wars trilogy — it has it all. Luke gets an immediate case of one-itis as soon as he sees Leia, and immediately starts treating her like…well, a princess. He even gets to do the gamma’s hero fantasy of literally saving her life. But for all that, she loves him like a brother (long before she finds out he is one). On the other hand, Han treats her like an annoying brat, and the tingles fly. The whole lesson of female attraction was spelled out right there in those movies.

    The problem with that, or with examples from the classics, is that they’re overwhelmed by all the influences telling men the opposite. If there weren’t so many people pushing the blue pill (according to jewelry stores, even a married man must trade gifts for a kiss), maybe a boy could read the classics or see Star Wars and get the point. But those red-pill lessons are so outnumbered that he sees them as exceptions.

    So a man wishing to pass along the red pill to the next generation has to do more than make sure they see those stories. He has to be overt and talk to them about it. “Okay, now do you see why Leia ends up with Han?” “Do you understand why Elizabeth spends so much time thinking about Darcy even though she claims to hate him? When a woman says she hates a man, what does that really mean?”

  11. “When a woman says she hates a man, what does that really mean?”

    She is thinking about him.

  12. The problem with that, or with examples from the classics, is that they’re overwhelmed by all the influences telling men the opposite. If there weren’t so many people pushing the blue pill (according to jewelry stores, even a married man must trade gifts for a kiss), maybe a boy could read the classics or see Star Wars and get the point. But those red-pill lessons are so outnumbered that he sees them as exceptions.

    Exactly. There are simply too many lies out there for the truth to come to the forefront without someone actually pushing it there. Two centuries ago the classics might have been enough. But not today.

  13. theshadowedknight

    I hate to validate Godwin’s Law, but it is an excellent parallel. How many lives were saved by the medical data culled from the Nazi death camps? How much of our current technology is based on Nazi scientists who were taken after the war? The sacrifices had already been made, the lives already ended. Using the knowledge for good was a way to honor the lost.

    The Shadowed Knight

  14. CC and Earl – When a woman says she hates a man, what does that really mean?

    She is thinking about him.

    Or as Wil Wheaton said to Sheldon… he’s living in her head rent-free.

  15. One thing the PUAs added that I don’t think we had before is a better understanding of a lot of the body language and unconscious stuff that goes on between men and women. For instance, the venue change: if you meet a girl at a coffee shop and then after a while suggest walking over to a second place (maybe a bookstore), that has the effect of making her feel like you’ve been on two dates together. If she has a rule about never kissing a guy until the second date, there’s a good chance she’ll kiss you after that two-venue one. Or on body language: if she’s playing with her hair, you’re good; if she has her arms crossed, bad.

    Now, maybe in a red-pill world, men would recognize and do this stuff instinctively. I don’t know, but I know some of those discoveries helped me a lot. Not necessarily in the PUA sense of, “Hey, this trick gets them to come back to your place the first night 36% more often”; but in the sense of being less likely to miss signals that a woman wants me to approach, and that kind of thing.

  16. To echo Cail, the body language and non-verbal communication aspect of “Game” is something which the PUAs could accomplish through sheer numbers when it came to interaction with women. Very, very few men before this point had the kind of success that some PUAs have had. And those who did were almost universally high-status, and thus didn’t stop to consider why they were so successful. Also, they were testing out which techniques worked and which didn’t.

  17. earl

    Oh yeah knowledge of body language was a good part of learning game. The social media type world cuts out a lot of that knowledge.

    And the thing I never really knew about until I found it around these parts…eye contact and either smirking or looking a bit angry. I swear you say more doing that to a woman…than what your larynx can come up with.

  18. thehap (thehaproject)

    Regarding the jewelry store comment above, Family Guy and Ron White said it best:

    Family Guy (in a fake diamond ad): “Because she’ll pretty much have to…”

    Ron White: “Diamonds – that’ll shut her up.”

  19. Family Guy (in a fake diamond ad): “Because she’ll pretty much have to…”

    Actually the Family Guy parody wasn’t too far off from the genuine DeBeers ads. They really did imply that the woman in the advertisements would sleep with the man who bought her expensive diamonds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pU6WQXkiOU

    “How else could 2 month’s salary last forever?” 😆 I suspect the advertising firm Debeers hired were just trolling when they made this campaign.

    When a woman says she hates a man, what does that really mean?

    She is thinking about him.

    But being mean to a woman to the point where she hates you isn’t any different from an elementary schoolboy putting a bug in a girl’s lunchbox – utterly juvenile. It gets her attention, but it doesn’t make her like you or respect you. (Well, unless she has serious self-esteem issues/is the type of woman who thrives on negativity/wants to date thugs who treat her like garbage).

    Looking back, there was a lot of times in my life where guys were mean to me for absolutely no reason. Driving me to tears, mean. I just assumed they were jerks and avoided them the best I could. (Weeell there was that one time I covered a boy’s car in shaving cream after he kept saying I had xylophone ribs). If they were interested in me than they should have just asked me out. Or been nice and not a jerk. I would have given them a chance instead of writing them off as mean losers.

    “Okay, now do you see why Leia ends up with Han?”

    I thought it was because the only other human male character she had chemistry with was her brother….? (I never liked her character much, though. Six months after her ENTIRE PLANET was blown to smithereens, Leia seemed more concerned about Han Solo getting in her pants. Unless Alderbaran was a barbaric wasteland you’d think she’d be more emotionally traumatized).

  20. Recall that intellect is not wisdom.

    And the method of application of knowledge either ennobles or profanes the Truth.

    “From end to end with labor keen;
    And here, poor fool; with all my lore.
    I stand no wiser than before.”

    – Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Faust

  21. I’m SOOOO grateful for the PUA’s!! They have taught us sooooo much on Game, you almost want to thank them.

    Heck, I even told my wife that I would have become one of them, had I not known what I do know now, in terms of Christ and the gospel!

    But I believe the best thing is use it for the benefit of those seeking the truth (what actually WORKS!), and in that way honor the wounded and those that have suffered from their tactics, like mentioned before.

    At the same time, I believe polygamists had quite good knowledge of the how’s and do’s of gaming, and could share effectively with each other. They in essence could still be in the hunt, know what worked and what didn’t, and share it with other men wanting to get married.

    Obviously, not many men are willing to pay the price of commitment Christ expects from the blessings a polygamist would receive – and in addition it is obviously also illegal –

    So to be a PUA is WAY cheaper and easier for non-believers than being a polygamist would ever be – in the society we currently live and love in.

    But, of course, being a PUA is of course one of the quickest ways to hell, since God values chastity of women to be one of his deepest priorities and desires.

    Let us fight (with the word) for the chastity of women!!!

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