Exploring Ideas and Questioning Myself- Episode 2

This is the second post in what I guess will be a series where I will ask my readers about their thoughts concerning some subjects that have been on my mind lately.

Chastity in the Church

Before I took the Red Pill, I had never given much thought about whether men or women were more likely to be virgins in society generally, and the Church specifically. I did subconsciously subscribe to the false notion that women were more inherently good than men. But on the other hand I knew that chastity was an exceedingly rarely practiced virtue in this day and age. Part of me always hoped though, that in Church one might still find those committed to the practice. Well, once I became acquainted with the manosphere I ran across a lot of folks talking about how there were far more male virgins in the Church than female ones. I have even seen some statistics somewhere which seem to back this up, although I can’t find them at the moment. Given what I have learned about female behavior, and the impact of feminism on Christianity, this contention made sense to me.

I should note that chastity and virginity are not necessarily the same thing; chastity is as much about thoughts and intentions as it is about conduct. One can still be a virgin, but not chaste. For example,  if you aren’t attractive enough to gain the attention of the opposite sex but if given the opportunity to have sex (out of wedlock) you would take it, then you aren’t practicing chastity. This means that some of the “male Christian virgins” out there are not chaste, but only have a N=0 because they aren’t attractive and thus get no female attention.

But recently I have seen some folks contesting that chastity/virginity is uncommon in the church. For example, a number of commenters at Haley’s Halo expressed opposing views in her post The Earl of Piety, starting with this comment. Then someone named Someone (I crack myself up at times) left this:

i’m christian, 24, single, dating, and a virgin. all of my christian friends who are female are virgins. amazing isn’t it?

This line struck me as interesting, because I have heard something similar from a few of the other chaste young women who hang around these parts. Lovelyleblanc is one of those who indicates that she and her close friends are all chaste.

All of this has led me to question just how common chastity is inside the Church, at least in America. After having given this some thought, I think I have a few possible explanations for why there are such disparate views of this situation coming from different quarters.

1) With Friends Like These- First off, there is some obvious  self-selection going on amongst the young women who contribute their views on the subject. The personal qualities that lead a young woman to be chaste in this sinful age are probably the same set of qualities which determine her friends, and as a result those friends are also likely to be chaste as well. So young chaste Christian women are more likely to associate and be friends with other young chaste Christian women. Given the “herd” mechanics of female social structures, it would also make sense that they would self-reinforce this behavior. So when they speak of all their friends being chaste, they are telling the truth.

2) Apex Fallacy- Men are not nearly as bad as women when it comes to treating the opposite sex as shadows to be ignored, but we still will engage in it. Perhaps some of what is happening is that men are fixating on only the most attractive women in churches being unchaste, and ignoring all of the rest. This explains things to a degree, and might be sufficient for the sample sizes we are talking about. But I just don’t think it is what is happening here.

3) Demographics- It might be the case that some regions and locations have a greater concentration of chaste Christians than others. While there does seem to be something of an obviousness to this rationale, how it plays out might not be so clear cut. My own theory is that chastity is most commonly practiced in Church in regions which are otherwise extremely secular, or extremely conservative. In a largely secular location, someone who purposefully chooses to be in church and profess to be a Christian is going against the grain; they are being counter-cultural. It would make sense that such people are more likely than not to conduct themselves in a manner which is vastly different than the promiscuity that is so common these days. On the flipside, an extremely conservative location might not provide the kind of “cover” that an unchaste Christian is looking for. With that kind of negative influence less prevalent, it might be easier for young Christians to be chaste, or it might have a greater acceptance and thus more social support for it might exist.

4) Willful Blindness- This is the most common manosphere argument against the idea that there are a lot of chaste Christians. Folks are taking people at their word when they really shouldn’t. Some of this has to be happening, it is just unclear how much.

I am inclined to believe that 1 and 3 are the biggest factors, some of 4 as well. Anyone care to chime in with their thoughts?

The Voice of Desire

Something which I have been thinking about lately is how important a woman’s voice is. I think that an argument can be made that a woman’s voice might well serve as both an attraction trait and a desirable trait. Speaking from my own experience, I find that a female voice which is highly unpleasant to the ear is huge turn-off. A woman with a really screechy or squeaky voice will cause me to wince whenever I hear it, and acts as a quick libido killer. On the other hand, a silky or sultry voice, low but not deep… well, that can work quite the opposite effect. Also, I have to admit that I find a lot of foreign accents add a certain something to a woman’s voice.

But what about desirability? When we talk about that in the context of female traits, we are talking about men evaluating a woman for investment/commitment. Does voice factor into this? I suspect it does, because commitment means keeping the woman around for extended periods of time. And the woman having a pleasant voice cannot help but be a plus in this regard. Outside of the obvious aspect of attraction, I would think that many men would filter for voice as well, looking for something that will at least not be a pain to listen to outside of the bedroom.

So, to my male readers out there, what role does a woman’s voice play in relating to her? In terms of attraction and desirability, how important is it? To the ladies, what response do you think you get from your voice?

Power and the Battle of the Sexes

An idea that I have been toying around with lately is that the male-female power relationship is the foundation of all other power structures. By this I mean that the way that men and women relate to one another, and how power is allocated between them in a society, determines every other social structure, system and organization. In my post Pecking Order, I related a story of how when men control power/resource you tend to see a more equitable distribution of resources to the whole than when women have that power. While that incident occurred on a micro scale, I wonder if the same mechanic works on a macro-scale level, affecting civilization as a whole. If that were true, then those societies/civilizations which give women more power and authority over the distribution of resources should theoretically have greater disparities in income and resource allocation than more “patriarchal” societies where men still retain most power. On the other hand, the mechanic might be limited to scales where you have clearly identifiable “Alpha” and “Beta” males, i.e. where there is a clear male hierarchy. Outside of that kind of environment, then perhaps the female tendency towards “fairness” would have a greater impact.

Also, the female inclination to fitness test is something which might have a macro-scale impact as well on society. As part of that impulse, women are driven to seek to expand their power/influence, in order to seek out and encounter a man who will not only resist this expansion but actively push back. The question is, how far does this impulse extend? Does it only occur in individual interactions with men, or does it influence more than just that. My belief is that fitness tests are an individual manifestation of that tendency, and that “feminism” is a society wide manifestation of that same tendency to push against boundaries.

This is an area where I am going to devote some thought in the future, but I am curious to hear if any of my readers have been thinking something similar. Or believe that I am way off base.

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29 Comments

Filed under Attraction, Desire, Fitness Test, Red Pill, Sex, The Church

29 responses to “Exploring Ideas and Questioning Myself- Episode 2

  1. Bryce Laliberte

    What do you think of my post here for corroborating your thesis concerning distribution inequalities and male-female power?

  2. That is one example of such an inequality in action, although I was trying to make a broader point beyond jus the SMP/MMP. Although it was a very good article none the less.

  3. Ellie

    “feminism” is a society wide manifestation of that same tendency to push against boundaries.” – and yet feminism was created by men, men allowed women to vote, men created no-fault divorce – men. Feminism is, in my opinion, the war of more powerful, more attractive men on less powerful and attractive men. Some of the most influential supporters of feminism happen to be fathers, coaching their daughters about how they can do anything, how they are special, that they can dream things into existence. Men know that women are more easily manipulated and seek to control more than belongs to them. They want what belongs to you too. Your wife, your daughters. You will still have to support them. But they obey another man… the one who produces their favorite tv shows, edits their favorite books, etc. I have noticed in the most disrespectful ladies in my church that they tend to be the ones who “worship” the pastor- obeying him instead of her husband. And he repays her in kind. In one case, the husband was constantly enraged with his wife because she believed the prosperity gospel and was tithing money they needed to live on. She went to the pastor for advice and he told her to divorce her husband because he was abusive. She did. Or some TV personality- he says to stop eating eggs and to eat eggbeaters instead. She obeys. Women are still submitting and obeying- we always will be. We were cursed with this in the beginning. Just now we are not submitting and obeying our husbands.

  4. Ellie, to address your points-

    “Feminism created by men”- There is a difference between something being created by men and empowered by men. It is obvious that feminism happened because men allowed it to happen, and in some cases pushed for it to happen. But the early roots of feminism (at least in the US) trace to the early 1800s. The earliest male supporters of feminism were generally those who were universalists in their attitude towards the liberal enlightenment. They supported equality for men, and thought that there was cause to support it for women as well.

    Only recently, with the advent of the sexual revolution, can it be said that this has become a contest between the attractive and unattractive men.

    As for father’s being supportive of feminism, this is because they have been misguided on what is good for their daughters. They themselves have been indoctrinated already by feminist ideology, and in seeking to help their daughters they fail to realize the harm they are actually inflicting.

    As for the rest of your comment, no disagreement.

  5. Ellie

    As for fathers supporting feminism, you will note that it didn’t really take off until after WWII. Fathers whose sons died wanted to maintain family prominence… by pushing their daughters to positions that their sons would have held. Fatherly greed cannot be discounted.

    I think that in times past, men were more intellectually honest and perhaps thought things through to their logical extension more than is seen today. Many of them seem to have felt confined by the morality of the day.

    A lot of men are currently empowering feminism: they enjoy the free sex, prolific porn, second income. It is probably the second income that motivates a lot of married men. Also the smaller family size means less responsibility. Those who are not receiving the free sex or second income wait on the sidelines hoping for their day in the sun, not necessarily wanting to destroy the system, but wanting to use it for their benefit. It is greed for more at less cost that causes most men to “empower” feminism. I have not seen any inkling of lack of support for basic feministic ideals from men outside of this online sphere and the most conservative church people.

  6. Elspeth

    Couple of thoughts spring to mind. The first is that young people, particularly in urban areas such as the one in which we live, are leaving the church in droves. Our pastor actually questioned recently the numbers of young adults who participate in the H.S. graduation service never to be heard from again.

    Interestingly enough, our 3 girls are skipped that pageantry but are also still active participants in our church. Of course, they also attend college while living at home. I think parents underestimate how much of a difference it makes to keep your children close until they have developed a faith that is personal and their own, and are able to remain chaste if they are committed to that path. It’s not a panacea (I’m a living witness of that), but it increases the odds.

    Thank you for making the distinction between total chastity and virginity. It is not highlighted often enough.

    Your voice portion amused me. We did a podcast of a conversation on TC back when the new pope was being chosen (I’m not Catholic), and some of the comments about our voices were surprising. The higher pitched voices were received one way, and those of us with deeper voices were conferred with a certain amount of gravitas. Very funny in retrospect.

    On fathers and feminism. I think there is a balance to be struck when considering this. Some men are simply placating fathers at best, or raving feminists at worst.

    And then there are men like my husband, who see the attack on manhood and the decline of marriage in general. There is also the horrible economy that young people are inheriting across the board.

    The strategy from our perspective is to raise our girls to be homemakers equipped to help support a family if need be. And if they are among those Paul references in 1 Corinthians 7 with respect to singleness, that they be prepared to deal with that as well.

    Yet another reason why we are encouraging them to remain here at home with us as long as necessary. I’ve been shocked at the number their classmates’ parents that darn near threw a party when they left for college.

  7. “I am inclined to believe that 1 and 3 are the biggest factors, some of 4 as well. Anyone care to chime in with their thoughts?”

    I agree, more #3 than #1 though. I live in the east coast (border states), so it is not conservative at all here compared to the mid west. But the reason I say #3 more than #1 is because culture influences the average person’s actions more than religion does. People want to be accepted and most can’t think for themselves. I know I am stating the obvious.
    Chasity is seen as something foreign nowadays and undesirable by most guys. Women who choose to remain virgins until marriage do so for God and to honor their fathers, not for a husband. (We hope and pray that our future husband, whoever it may be, will appreciate it though and we understand that our virginity belongs to him).
    You can easily get married without being a virgin. Matter a fact, I will say it is harder for the virgin girl to get married than the non-virgin girl. I don’t know why this is, but it is.
    Also, a lot of my friends are attractive and virgins so, it is harder because they seem to attract non-Christian guys who don’t value chastity. Some of these girls come from strict families, who choose and approve of their friends for them. My parents were like this, and in some ways, still kind of are.

    ” To the ladies, what response do you think you get from your voice?”

    I don’t know. I’ve gotten compliments on my laugh, but I’d say there is nothing spectacular or unique about my voice.

    “My belief is that fitness tests are an individual manifestation of that tendency, and that “feminism” is a society wide manifestation of that same tendency to push against boundaries”.

    I did a blog post, in what I believe, is the root of feminism. I don’t really understand fitness testing. If a woman really needs to fitness test a man, watch they way he lives his life and interacts with people. I think some women like to use the fitness test excuse for being rebellious and rude. Peter praised Sarah because she was submissive to her husband and he encouraged women to win over their unbeliever husbands without words. (1 Peter 3) Fitness testing doesn’t make much of an impact on a man, actions do. Basically, the more a woman acts like a lady, the more he’ll act like a man.

    @Ellie: I wouldn’t go to the extent that men created feminism. It does not surprise me though that men do succumb to the wicked ways of these women. We see so many examples of men like this in the Bible: Solomon, David, Samson, King Herod, and even Adam for goodness sakes…the list goes on…A woman can be the greatest downfall to her man or she can be the wife of noble character, where her husband is respected. Her children rise up and call her blessed and her husband praises her.

    Sorry for the long comment donalgraeme.

  8. I am going to try and address folks comments in order, starting with Ellie.

    Good point about father’s trying to “replace” their sons. You see that also with men who never had any sons, they try and raise their daughters as though they were sons. I believe that Sigyn’s father was one such man.

    Regarding intellectual honesty, I think part of it is that most people, men and women both, have lost much of their “future time sense.” They can no longer appreciate cause and effect like they used to (and of course there are those who argue that women were never good at it).

    I definitely agree that Greed is a major component in the rise and sustaining power of feminism.

  9. Elspeth, I can’t begin to tell you how many people I knew in my church growing up have left and I haven’t seen there again. At least a dozen people around my age, probably a whole lot more that I have forgotten.

    As for keeping your children close, I think that it is different for sons and daughters. For a daughter it is very close to keep a positive and dominant male influence in her life at all times, else she start actively seeking one. And in this day and age that rarely ends well.

    As for chastity and virginity… given the various definitions of “virgin” I hear these days, I prefer to use the later and then clearly define the term when needed.

    It has been a while since I listened to that podcast, I need to find it again. Listening to your voices was an enjoyable and amusing experience. Voice is definitely an area which I am keen on exploring in the future.

    Your strategy is sound. Our standard should be the Proverbs 31 woman, not the bonbon eating SAHM, or the Careerist woman. Not to single her out, but I think that Sigyn has been doing a sound job documenting how that can work out in the present age.

  10. @ Lovely

    You can easily get married without being a virgin. Matter a fact, I will say it is harder for the virgin girl to get married than the non-virgin girl. I don’t know why this is, but it is.

    I have a theory why this may be. It is based on the fact that very few, men and women both, are chaste these days. Most guys (yes, even Christian guys) expect to have sex with the women they date. When a woman explains that she is saving herself for marriage, those guys will NEXT her and move on. Since they are in the majority, that leaves far less men who can and will date chaste women, much less marry them. Whereas those guys who expect and have sense are still likely to marry anyways, they just aren’t chaste. They start out looking for sex, and marriage is something they only consider after.

    Hopefully you and your friends will find Godly men who appreciate your virtue and are worthy of being your husbands. Perhaps the reason they attract non-Christian guys is because those men think them to be easy marks. Or perhaps it is because they are more feminine that other women, and those guys are confident enough in their skills to go after them.

    As for fitness testing, don’t forget that it is an automatic reflex. Women don’t consciously decide to do it. The impulse is rooted deep in the female subconscious.

  11. Donal, there is a healthy dose of #2 in the not-seeing. I’ve been informed by many men that women who just aren’t up to a man’s standards are frequently not even registered as women, on a subconscious level. I’ve been repeatedly informed that a man is not to be faulted for it, that it’s “just the way we are” and “get over it”. (Usually by the same guys who lament a lack of attention from women despite that they’re “nice guys”, but that’s a different discussion.)

    It doesn’t help that men’s standards are constantly elevated by the kept women of Hollywood, Playboy, and Victoria’s Secret. I tell you, Big Business is killing the local economy…

  12. Elspeth

    Yes, Sigyn is absolutely right All the talk about how nice, “beta” guys are left out completely ignores the number of nice, “plain Jane” girls who are also left out. Of course, the sluts have even made it hard on the chaste girls who are relatively attractive.

    The truth is that it has always been this way for women. There was a time when a gainfully employed man who was a potentially good provider could reasonably expect to have a marriage and family., But homely women? They’ve always had it rough, no matter how godly.

    It doesn’t help that men’s standards are constantly elevated by the kept women of Hollywood, Playboy, and Victoria’s Secret. I tell you, Big Business is killing the local economy…

    Spot on. It often makes me laugh when I see men around the sphere berate women that aren’t physically perfectly perfect. Extra ten pounds is a land whale. A woman who doesn’t look like she stepped off the pages of a magazine or who is over 25 is dismissed as sub-par or an ex-carousel rider if she isn’t married yet. It’s insanity. All of it.

    I’m glad to be free from it, but I am truly concerned for my daughters who have to somehow land a godly husband in this environment.

  13. Sigyn, I would like to think that hasn’t been the case for me… but if this is a subconscious thing, then I guess I wouldn’t know. However, I have trained myself to consciously evaluate all women, and not ignore those whom I am not immediately attracted to.

    Part of me wonders if those men you are talking about are into Porn. There is plentiful evidence these days which shows that pornography alters the mind, so it wouldn’t shock me that it could impact who men pay attention to.

  14. Elspeth,

    Homely people (you mean unattractive, right?) have always had it tough. There is always a bottom, a section of society that loses out.

    Spot on. It often makes me laugh when I see men around the sphere berate women that aren’t physically perfectly perfect.

    Yeah, well, there is a part of the sphere filed with bitter, mean-spirited men. I try to pay them little heed.

    In the past I have said that I thought that young chaste, Christian women would be in catbird’s seat. Given how messed up this market it, I have to retract that. So many Christian men have given up on women, and on life, the “worthwhile husband” supply has also shrunk pretty dramatically. Of course, the biggest problem is finding one another, and recognizing a potential spouse when you do find them.

  15. theshadowedknight

    A couple points to raise here.

    First, I have heard about how the less attractive women have a tendency to blow up on the men that approach them if they do not meet her standards. I have noticed this myself, on occasion. That happens enough times and men will just give up on them. No one wants to work harder for a lesser reward. So the lower levels of women are written off, because their sisters are offended that their equals consider themselves their equals. It is these lower tier men that realize that without any chance at the higher tier women, they might as well drop out.

    Second, the problem of men’s expectations being out of control and out of line is nowhere near the impact of women’s. Take Toronto, a city widely panned by the pickup artists for its unpleasant, unattractive women. What do the men do? Try anyway, so hard that the women’s expectations reach absurdity. Still, these men keep going back.

    The Shadowed Knight

  16. deti

    I’m probably going to catch some grief from Sigyn and Elspeth over this, but oh well.

    As for chastity of church girls, most of it is willful blindness; some of it is demographics and a little of it is standing against peer pressure. If there are chaste and virginal girls it’s because she’s able to withstand the pressure.

    I just think that most of it from my perspective having been in and around mainline Prot churches for more than 30 years is willful blindness. Most men and women in church have absolutely NO idea what their girls are doing and who they’re doing it with. I know; I was there; I still am there; and I see it.

    I don’t think it’s apex fallacy in reverse. I don’t believe men are blowing off the homely girls. What’s happening more often is the Christian men are figuring out that they can’t win no matter what they do. Church girls – even the homely church girls — consider the devout Christian man as beneath them. They can’t date a non-church girl because that would mean the potential for being unequally yoked. I can’t even tell you how many rejections I’ve endured from even pretty average, nothing special church girls. Most of the church girls I’ve known have out-of-this-world unreasonable standards; there isn’t a man alive who could possibly measure up to what they want and expect.

    The Christian church has GOT to do something about this. Their faithful are not finding each other. Church girls have a reputation for being either inveterate sluts or unattractive, unreasonable prudes. Devout church men can’t win for losing. They figure out that they can’t even get the church UBs interested in them; so they try outside the church with little more success, if any at all.

  17. deti

    “Usually by the same guys who lament a lack of attention from women despite that they’re “nice guys”, but that’s a different discussion.)”

    Sigyn, the “homely Christian girls get no love” is the flipside of the “nice devout Christian guys get no love”. Two sides of the same coin. Just goes to show there’s plenty of pain to go around.

    But I’d point out that the homely church girls want George Clooney just as much as the hot girls do; said hot girls being the ones who could actually GET George Clooney. I’ve yet to see a church girl (homely or hot) get with a “nice guy” from church. Because NONE of the girls (homely or hot) want “nice guys”.

    “It doesn’t help that men’s standards are constantly elevated by the kept women of Hollywood, Playboy, and Victoria’s Secret.”

    No sale, Sigyn. Two can play that game. It doesn’t help that women’s standards are constantly elevated by the E! network, Cosmopolitan, and Magic Mike. Compound this by the fact that any girl a 4 or above in attractiveness can get sex anytime she wants. She might not use it that way, but she knows if she wanted to, she can get it.

    I’ve never, ever seen even an average girl go without male attention, boyfriends, or sex unless she does so by choice. Not once, not ever. I’ve never, ever seen even an average woman live as an incel. Not once, not ever. Never.

  18. Elspeth

    I’ve never, ever seen even an average girl go without male attention, boyfriends, or sex unless she does so by choice. Not once, not ever. I’ve never, ever seen even an average woman live as an incel. Not once, not ever. Never.

    Since we’re discussing ostensibly chaste, Christian people I fail to see how the ability to get sex is relevant, Deti. You’re conflating the SMP with the MMP. I know that’s how it’s commonly done, but it’s just not germane to this discussion Deti.

    Take immorality off the table and women on the low side of average are shut out as often as the nice beta guys.

    Do you still deny even that?

  19. I can’t address everything said here, since I don’t have the personal experiences to back it up. But I have thought of two other criteria that matter:

    5) Denominational- certain Christian denominations are less likely to have chaste Christians than others. Seems obvious, and it is, but is something that would explain how people could have very different experiences with the matter.

    6) Generational- while there are general categories of generations (Boomers, Gen X, Millenials, etc.), they themselves are broken up into certain age brackets. And depending on various factors some brackets might be more likely to be chaste than others. Whether it is environmental factors, or perhaps a response to an earlier micro-generation (either too prudish or too slutty), we might be seeing differences in increments as small as five years.

  20. Elspeth, I think that Deti was making the point that men will seek out sex with women below them in SMV, whereas women generally won’t, and this distorts a woman’s self-perceived SMV. Because she solipsisticly assumes that he, like her, won’t seek below his own SMV for sexual attention.

  21. deti

    “Take immorality off the table and women on the low side of average are shut out as often as the nice beta guys. Do you still deny even that?”

    Well, take sex out of the equation. If we’re talking now about girls getting attention and dates from boys, I still disagree with you. I sure didn’t see even average, nothing special CHASTE girls home on Saturday nights. I saw them out with boys and having boyfriends even if they weren’t sleeping with them.

    I just didn’t see low average women getting shut out of anything. That’s not my experience and it didn’t line up at all with what I saw and what I hear and heard others telling me. If average and low average women wanted male attention, they got it. If they wanted dates, they got them.

  22. Elspeth

    I just didn’t see low average women getting shut out of anything. That’s not my experience and it didn’t line up at all with what I saw and what I hear and heard others telling me. If average and low average women wanted male attention, they got it. If they wanted dates, they got them.

    Okay. I’ll take your word for that. Of course, you’re even older than me if I recall correctly. Not by much, but at least a little.

    Do you really think that what you said still holds true, in this current environment?

  23. I am largely out of that scene at the moment Elspeth, but based on even my primitive observations, women of questionable SMV still seem to attract male attention. Maybe not often, but that may well be due to the quality of men they can attract. But those who do want it do seem to be able to get it.

  24. theshadowedknight

    Elspeth, remember Briffault’s Law? Women dictate the relationship status, or lack thereof. When they refuse to pay heed to their true value and seek the top tier men while ignoring the men within realistic reach, they are responsible for their own solitude. If a woman wants a date, it is rare that she not get it. Keep in mind that a “one” and a “ten” are equally as rare. Focusing on the fate of the lowest is a Nadir Fallacy as useful as the Apex Fallacy is.

    The Shadowed Knight

  25. @Donalgraeme: Interesting theory, would explain the 50% divorce rate.
    Thank you.
    I didn’t know fitness testing was biological. Could you a provide a link or book title where you discovered this please? I would like to read more about this. Thank you 🙂

  26. “So many Christian men have given up on women, and on life, the “worthwhile husband” supply has also shrunk pretty dramatically. Of course, the biggest problem is finding one another, and recognizing a potential spouse when you do find them.”

    I’m going to comment on this as it is VERY important. We in the manosphere are great at recognizing patterns but terrible at finding the root cause for a lot of men’s behavior. If you want to understand men, then you have to understand respect. Men are looking for respect. It is an inherent psychological need that we have. If we don’t get it, then we have 0, nadda, nill, null, no reason to do anything for anyone. Traditionally, fathers were treated with respect in society and by extension men with good jobs as they would make good providers who were fathers. Respect for these things is drying up and with it, the number of men willing to do them. The less respect men are shown for doing things that society needs to continue, the less men will do them. It is that simple for the individual man.

    Ladies, I am about to teach you the most effective thing you can ever do to keep a man once you catch him. Look as good as you can, have sex with him often, and intentionally show him respect for things that you need in a partner. You want him to make more decisions? Actively comment how impressive it is when he just takes the bull by the horns and chooses something. You want him to workout more? Actively comment on how impressive it is when he does work out. It’s that simple ladies. Men operate based on respect. It is our largest driving factor. Most men couldn’t identify this in themselves, because they have never considered their inner driving factors, but this one is predominant. You ever wonder why nagging doesn’t work? Because it’s a form of disrespect. You are actively working against yourself and what you want by doing it. You want your man to do something (that actually NEEDS to be done, not just that you want)? Walk over to him sitting on the couch, stand directly in front of him, get down on your knees, put you hand on his leg and say “I know that you are busy (or having fun) and I know that I’m interrupting, but I need your help with this. I wish I could handle it myself, but I can’t. Would you please do this for me? I really need you right now.”

    I dare you to try this. It is like catnip for a man. Just like hypergamy is an innate reflex that women have, a show of open submission is considered very respectful in the back of your man’s brain. It is an itch that doesn’t get scratched often and the majority of men will move mountains for a woman who can humble herself and be respectful like this.

    Or you can try nagging……..again, and see how that works out for you.

  27. Elspeth

    Ladies, I am about to teach you the most effective thing you can ever do to keep a man once you catch him. Look as good as you can, have sex with him often, and intentionally show him respect for things that you need in a partner. You want him to make more decisions? Actively comment how impressive it is when he just takes the bull by the horns and chooses something. You want him to workout more? Actively comment on how impressive it is when he does work out. It’s that simple ladies. Men operate based on respect. It is our largest driving factor. Most men couldn’t identify this in themselves, because they have never considered their inner driving factors, but this one is predominant. You ever wonder why nagging doesn’t work? Because it’s a form of disrespect. You are actively working against yourself and what you want by doing it. You want your man to do something (that actually NEEDS to be done, not just that you want)? Walk over to him sitting on the couch, stand directly in front of him, get down on your knees, put you hand on his leg and say “I know that you are busy (or having fun) and I know that I’m interrupting, but I need your help with this. I wish I could handle it myself, but I can’t. Would you please do this for me? I really need you right now.”

    I dare you to try this. It is like catnip for a man. Just like hypergamy is an innate reflex that women have, a show of open submission is considered very respectful in the back of your man’s brain. It is an itch that doesn’t get scratched often and the majority of men will move mountains for a woman who can humble herself and be respectful like this.

    Or you can try nagging……..again, and see how that works out for you.

    I learned this lesson years ago and have tried to make it a personal goal to educate as many young wives as I can. I am often dismissed as a doormat. Only once has a young wife enthusiastically embraced what I had to say.

    I actually saw that very couple recently and when the young husband (19) saw me he hugged and kissed my cheek. Hadn’t been hugged by a teenage boy that I’m not related to since I was a teenager. It was totally out of character for this particular kid that I’ve known for a few years. I knew right away that she had shown him my letter to her.

  28. You want him to workout more? Actively comment on how impressive it is when he does work out.

    That’s exactly right. I did that with my husband. He started lifting weights about eighteen months ago, and when he noticed that I was always wanting to squeeze his arms and going all gaga over him, he was even more motivated to keep working out. It’s much more effective than nagging.

  29. Negative validation from women, directed towards men, is almost always ineffective, and often will result in the opposite effect. But we love positive validation from women. Especially good looking women. I would image the effect would be even greater coming from a woman we have invested in, i.e. married.

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