All Alone in the Dark

(Note: I’ve been sitting on this blog post because it ended up being more of a whinefest that I like. I’ve been trying to avoid pointless complaining here as there is plenty of that in the rest of the manosphere. Instead, I’ve been hoping to take a positive attitude, help young Christians marry, and overall avoid the doom and gloom which many in the MGTOW movement wrap themselves in. But I realized that denying what I was thinking doesn’t help anyone, as it is important for both newcomers to this part of the web as well as oldtimers to understand that others feel as they do. That, plus I spent a fair amount of time on this and didn’t want to waste it.)

Another Father’s Day has come and gone. At the end of the service, the priest had all of the fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers (of which there were a few) stand up to receive a blessing. A large percentage of the men in the church stood up. While they received their blessing, an awful lot went through my mind in a short period of time:

I noticed that many of them were older. Partially this was skewed by the grandfathers and great-grandfathers, but in truth there were very few young fathers in attendance. And the Mass is one which was aimed for younger members of the church.

I took note of the fact that there appeared to be more young, unmarried men in the church than there were young, unmarried women. A lot more. While it is often remarked upon that women make up the majority of the membership in most churches, that doesn’t seem to be the case for mine. While the split might be different for older members of the church, there seemed to be more young men. I have to wonder: was this simply the product of random chance; the result of more sons being born to adult members of the Church? It is possible, but unlikely. And if that birth distribution isn’t the case, then where were the young women?

Lastly, and most importantly, as I looked around the room at all of the fathers standing up, I realized that I would likely never join them. I am finally starting to come to grip with the fact that I probably will never marry and have children. When I was younger I always thought that I would have time. After all, men are not as impacted by age as women when it comes to fertility or attractiveness. Even in my Blue Pill days I knew this. And so I thought that time was on my side, that I would eventually find the right woman for me. I know better now.

Now that I have taken the Red Pill I understand just how few marriageable women are out there. In a post over at Unmasking Feminism, this question was asked:

[W]hat do you think the overall percentage is of SCRIPTURALLY-eligible young brides-to-be in the church nowadays?

The answer:

CV, I was thinking about that…. I would say 2% and these women are probably in very rural areas.

Now, I thought the filters for the question were a bit too restrictive, but even with those reduced somewhat, the answer cannot be far from the 2% given. Another commentator summed up the situation in all of its grim glory:

Given the current state of affairs, the chances of a serious Christian young man finding a suitable wife is slim. His options are to be celibate, to hold out unless and until he finds a unicorn, or take the best thing on offer and roll the dice. In the latter case it is a fairly straight-forward risk assessment: celibacy can be extremely difficult, and about 3/5 of Christian marriages work out well enough to avoid divorce court – on the other hand the odds of disaster are still absurdly high, the penalties for choosing poorly are monumental, and not all marriages that survive are good marriages. It sucks, but there it is.

Option three is off the table for me. Unless an Angel of the LORD comes down from on high and informs me that God commands otherwise, I will never marry an unchaste woman. Never. Whatever else happens to me, that is one particular path I won’t walk, as the teaching of St. Paul resonates with me.

Option two is the long shot. There are still a few virtuous women out there. Nightskyradio found one of them. Plenty of men in the manosphere argue that it is folly to pursue this option, but I intend to do so as long as I can, even though I may never find a worthy, marriageable woman. Unfortunately, even if I do find such a woman, there is another barrier that may come between us. There is still the problem of age. When the subject of men having trouble finding a wife came up at Sunshinemary’s blog a week ago, she left this comment:

One quick note; a silent reader emailed me the other day lamenting the fact that he was probably too old to find a young virginal bride. He wanted to look in the 16-20 range because that’s where the virgins are (he’s a devout Christian and also chaste), but felt that he was just too old to do that and would come across as creepy. His age? 25! I was like, you are NOT old. Find yourself a nice 18-year-old. Too many men are measuring their SMV/MMV age by female standards. Stop that!

Sunshinemary means well, but unfortunately she confuses the Sexual Marketplace with the Marriage Marketplace. Age isn’t a problem for men in the SMP like it is for women, because men arrive at their peak later than women. If you are a participant in the SMP, age differences don’t mean a whole lot, only attractiveness. But in the MMP, matters are quite different. Because of the significance of marriage, pressure from family and friends has a considerable impact on behavior. A man in his late twenties/early thirties is not old. But how many parents would be comfortable with their daughter marrying a man ten to fifteen years older than their daughter? The answer: very few these days. Even Sunshinemary indicated that she would have problems with it.

This is an issue because the kind of woman I would want to marry would be the type of woman who actually listens to the wisdom of her family. And her family would be railing against the relationship. Being a Catholic, running off and eloping is not an option. Instead, I will have to somehow convince not only the young lady I am courting, but her family as well, that she would do well to marry an older man. Easier said than done. Even before getting to that point I will have to weather the accusations of being a creep or a pervert for focusing my attention on women much younger than myself. Finding a woman closer to my age who is still chaste and worth marrying is even more difficult. Loki grabbed one of the few who are out there. Perhaps I will run across another, but the odds of my getting struck by lightning are likely better than that.

That leaves option one. Where I must walk the hard road ahead by myself. I have lived that life to this point, and at times it hasn’t been easy. The desire for companionship is as much part of the difficulty of living a chaste life as restraining my sexuality. And yet I have succeeded so far. I know it can be done, if needs be. But it is not a path I choose to take, unless I am forced to choose between a life of celibacy or a life of sin.

When I occasionally mention my frustrations with life to those close to me, I often hear that I have my whole life ahead of me. That is no measure of comfort; because I will be living that life alone and unloved. Some commentators in the manosphere argue that a man doesn’t need a woman, that he shouldn’t bother with them, that they aren’t worth the effort. Perhaps they are fortunate enough to not experience the ache. Maybe they are just lucky, or gifted perhaps. Or maybe they are so filled with bitterness and anger that they can no longer feel it. But that isn’t me. I feel alone, I am alone. And it is not Good that man should be alone. But I need to accept that being alone might be my fate. I am not sure which I fear more: telling my parents that they will never have grand-children, or discovering that the ache isn’t numbed by the passage of time.

I have been trying to decide how to close this post. Of how to express all of my hopes and dreams, my fears and longings. Alas, I haven’t found fitting words. Since I find myself incapable of the task, I will trust it to The Who to convey my state of mind right now:

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75 Comments

Filed under Christianity, Marriage, Red Pill

75 responses to “All Alone in the Dark

  1. Wow, that’s a tough read, donal. I wish I had reassuring words to utter, but I don’t.

    LGR just pulled her 2% out of thin air, though. There are more virgins than that. But still the odds are not great. I applaud you for sticking by your convictions no matter the personal cost to you, and I will pray for you.

    Note what van Roinek has said about his search for a wife; he was only willing to have a chaste, Christian woman, and he did finally find one, but it took him until age 38 and he worked very, very hard to find her.

  2. Also, I would NOT have problems with an age discrepancy so long as the concerns I voiced were addressed. I would be happy for my daughters to marry an older man provided he would be willing to give them plenty of children.

  3. FuzzieWuzzie

    Good grief Donal Graeme, are we all stuck in this crazy boat? Over at SSM’s today, she convinced me to place my faith in God. However, doing a mental review of Job, even he wasn’t tested this way.
    If you find answers, please share!

  4. Deep Strength

    Option three is off the table for me. Unless an Angel of the LORD comes down from on high and informs me that God commands otherwise, I will never marry an unchaste woman. Never. Whatever else happens to me, that is one particular path I won’t walk, as the teaching of St. Paul resonates with me.

    Yep, that’s one of the big things I’ve learned from the manosphere. If I’m going to take a chance on marriage it’s going to be with 75% from a virgin.

    http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/2010/09/sexual-partner-divorce-risk.html

    That leaves option one. Where I must walk the hard road ahead by myself. I have lived that life to this point, and at times it hasn’t been easy. The desire for companionship is as much part of the difficulty of living a chaste life as restraining my sexuality. And yet I have succeeded so far. I know it can be done, if needs be. But it is not a path I choose to take, unless I am forced to choose between a life of celibacy or a life of sin.

    It is indeed looking like that is the case for me as well.

    I found a girl who is/was a transfer student and godly, but I’m not attracted to her and I didn’t get an answer to prayer. So I assume it’s not going forward.

    One of the other people in the manosphere said to potentially look into quiverfull, but I’m also potentially considering moving out of the country as well since I have an online business that gives me that independence.

  5. Deep Strength

    Haha, I don’t think you have to worry about any men wanting sex (and by extension children). Most birth control methods such as hormones/pill are incredibly unhealthy for women long term… except they are constantly brushed over. Also, there are very few low sex drive men out there.

  6. Sis

    This is sad, I will pray for you and it sounds like you’ve had an overdose of the manosphere and need grace.
    all things are possible through God
    God works all things together for good
    He has a hope and a future planned for you and it is good!
    God is in control of all things, your life, your relationships…everything!
    You are immensely valuable to God and you have worth

    do not despair over a wife, you were never in control of it anyway. You are free to pursue God, life, and joy with no worries because God will provide for all your needs.

  7. Sis

    10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

    11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for[a] a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” Luke 11:10-13

    He gives us good things, trust Him.

  8. It may be a low %, but it’s not uniformly distributed. There are clusters.

    And you only need one.

  9. thehap

    I feel your pain there, Donal. I am 35 myself and wonder if I will ever be able to find a virtuous woman.

  10. Wanna feel really alone? Imagine waking up one day and finding yourself married to Barbra Streisand. Now THAT’s feeling alone.

    All joking aside, I don’t think the single life is nearly the death sentence we make it out to be. Maybe it’s because I’m ambivalent about having kids, partly because I want the marriage to be about me and the wife before it becomes about the kids, and partly because I don’t want to raise kids in a world like this. (unless we move to a mountain cave in New Zealand). So while my desire for a wife is strong, my desire for a family, ehhh, not so much. It’s definitely a point to consider, and since I’m older, I really don’t want to see myself in a situation where I get married and the very first thing the wife wants to do is have kids. It’s like oy, can’t I get a chance to enjoy the marriage for 5 minutes? Of course if I had married really early, we could have enjoyed a few years together as a married couple before putting down roots and raising a family, as was my original plan. Life didn’t work out that way, so, meh.

    Dating women who turn out to not be compatible also seems to help as well, then instead of pining for a companion you’re in a right hurry to break things off with her so you can go off and do your own thing again. It really strikes me just how quickly women start trying to set boundaries on me even at the beginning stages of a relationship, which is a major affront to my independent, free spirited nature. I don’t think there’s a better cure for mitigating the loneliness of a singlehood than the experience of working game on a high maintenance girl and thinking, you know what, I don’t need this #$%^ in my life. Too much work, too much aggravation, too little return in investment.

    One of my closest friends is married and I believe God brought him and his wife together, but man, the fights they have are comically nuts. The strife and aggravation he has to deal with even when he works game gives even ME a headache (from all the laughing that is, tee hee). And GOD brought them together. I also know another marriage that’s the same way, a marriage God put together but where the strife and contention was 24/7 (at least for a long, long time.) In these instances you have to delve further to see the LORD was more concerned with the spiritual state of the spouses than in creating a happy, funsie, friction free marriage. Look what SunshineMary herself had to go through before her own marriage finally turned a corner for the better. There’s also the “Peaceful Wife” blogger who gave her husband grief for 14 years before she finally took the red pill. 14 years.

    Be careful what you wish for. With all the fathers you saw in church, consider how many of them might have wanted to kill just to be in your shoes?

    Now, this doesn’t mean I’m GMOW. I do believe marriage is in my future (God help me), but I can’t obsess over searching for my future bride in a world of 6 billion people. I’m better off focusing my energy on building up the traits and skills I need to be a good husband, enjoy the many freedoms that comes from being single, and leave the daunting task of uncovering who my future wife would be to the LORD. I believe this strikes a more sensible balance between the extremes of MGTOW and spending every waking moment searching for THE ONE.

    When that day finally does arrive for me, I’d like to be of a mind where I have no regrets about how I lived my single life, because I lived it to the fullest.

  11. an observer

    Frank,

    Well said.

    Having contemplated detis thoughts this last year, i have come to several conclusions about marriage, none of which terribly thrill me:
    – if she ever cheats, it will probably be all over
    – if i am ever single again, i will likely not remarry. The risk is too high.
    – if i was red pill when single, i may never have married at all.

    This is even though i am happily married these last twelve years. Dalrock advocates marriage with careful vetting. Being risk averse and a believer in free will, i am less convinced the risk is worthwhile, despite my positive experiences. Statistics can lie, but i saw and was affected by nofault divorce early on. Damn those suffragettes…

    My best mate is the same age as me, he is personable, engaging and terminally single. That is a travesty, and i cannot endorse comments like those previously, suggesting more faith is all that is needed.

  12. theshadowedknight

    Donal, if you have nothing to make life worth living, find something for which you would be willing to die. You are free to do the right thing without regard to the cost. You can put the Lord’s work first, without worry for those whom you would otherwise leave behind.

    When things get tough, remember the only universal truth: this, too, shall pass. Faith endures.

    The Shadowed Knight

  13. theshadowedknight

    Donal, if you have nothing for which to live, find something for which you would die. You are as free as any man can be; how do you control a man who cares not if he lives or dies? You can do the right thing without fear.

    When life gets tough, remember: this, too, shall pass. Faith endures.

    The Shadowed Knight

  14. This saddens me that you feel like this. Nobody should have to feel alone. I really believe you are passing through this time and this unfavorable emotions right now for a reason. “Cast not away your confidence because God defers his performances. That which does not come in your time, will be hastened in his time, which is always the more convenient season. God will work when he pleases, how he pleases, and by what means he pleases. He is not bound to keep our time, but he will perform his word, honor our faith, and reward them that diligently seek him.” ~ Matthew Henry. God’s timing is perfect, I know we often get frustrated because we want what we want now, but God is all-knowing and all-seeing, believe that he will bless you with a GOOD wife.

    I also want to reassure you that there are chaste women remaining. I don’t live in America, I live in Cyprus and I know chaste women here, but the life here is very different. In cities now it has started to change, I have lived in westernized countries and I saw how now many women in Cyprus start to become like the westernized women. But that is not true for all, there are good women left who strive everyday to live by the word of God.

    I really feel your pain and frustration, and I want you to know you are in my prayers, when the time is right, you will be blessed remember our God is able to do exceedingly, abundantly, more than we can ever ask. I don’t feel age is a big issue. I am 23 and my only concerns with a much older husband than I would be being widowed early(God forbid) or my children losing their father at a young age.

  15. Ton

    Even if you get married you will most likely live alone and unloved

    As for God answering your prayers, remember no is an answer. Which explains the uncountable millions of unanswered prayers.

  16. deti

    donal: this must be that post you were talking about yesterday. You’re right, it’s a bit of a downer.

    I think you’re right to restrict yourself to a chaste woman. In today’s day and age of “I’m not haaaappy” divorce, you’re better off. If you’re going to take your chances on marriage, don’t roll the dice on any woman with N in double digits, that’s for sure. I respect women like Sarah’s Daughter but she’s an extreme outlier. I also believe in the reformed slut and that she could make a decent wife; but again, they are very, very few and far between; and most simply aren’t worth the risk.

    I’m sure you’re aware of my story. You’re not going to hear the truth about an unchaste woman’s N. She’ll never be fully honest with you about it, in large part because she probably isn’t really sure what her N is. And even in the very unlikely event she does come clean with you, she’s just too great a risk, and the risk she presents greatly outweighs any possible reward.

    With an unchaste woman you’ll never have peace of mind. You’ll never really know that she loves you above all others; that she really is forsaking all others for you. She can say it, proclaim it till she’s blue in the face; but you’ll never really know, never really KNOW. Even if she has sex only with you after marriage and even if she is faithful in body; you’ll never really know that you own her sexuality; that you own her body; that after Christ she gives her heart only to you. You’ll always know you were just the last in line, and there were many men before you who took what they wanted for free while she rolled back her odometer to make you pay a higher price.

    You’ll never really know what goes on in her head and heart. You’ll never really know whether she relishes memories of other men, other times, hotter men with better bodies and more confident, dominant personalities than you. Chances are, those men loom over your marriage and they, not you, own her.

    It isn’t worth it. If I had it to do over again, I wouldn’t.

  17. Jonathan

    Broaden your circle of acquaintances… and, sorry, consider being something other than Catholic. Try some “nondenominational” type Baptist churches.

    In my immediate circle of acquaintances (people I and my wife know well) there are at least two young women who fit the bill. My SIL (21, attractive) and one of my wife’s friends (26, finishing teaching degree, very God-focused, about a 5.5 or 6 on attractiveness-could drop 10 pounds-and worried that she’ll never get to get married). That’s more than 2% of immediate acquaintance females….

  18. This is a very moving post and I really appreciate your franks words.
    I did pull that 2% out of thin air because it really does seem that low, but I have no idea where to get real statistics on that. I would think the number would be higher in age group 16-20, like maybe all of 10-20%. Just from the may churches I have visited in larger, metro areas (not mega churches), the appearance of women there sure doesn’t hint towards the virginity side.

    I am a huge supporter of age gap relationships. I think it is the best way to provide the proper dynamic.

    Regarding it not being good for man to alone. I agree, but was thinking wasn’t that said before the fall. After the fall and woman’s rebellion, I wonder if God would say it is better for man to be alone? In a perfect, Garden of Eden world a lot of things are good and makes sense, but now with the reality of a fallen world all around us, its hard to say.

  19. The Ringmistress

    Donal,

    I’ve enjoyed reading your comments at SSM’s place. They are always thoughtful and well reasoned.

    If you believe you have a vocation to marriage, then do not give up hope but trust in the Lord that you will find a bride in His time.

    However, in the words of a friend of mine, “Don’t pray for patience; pray for results!”

    May I suggest a Novena if this is weighing heavily on you. I prefer to go to Our Lord under his title Infant of Prague. Also his mother, Our Lady Undoer of Knots, for her intercession.

  20. deti

    Another thing I wanted to point out is that our society had better get used to the idea of a rapidly growing number of men who want to marry but who simply will not, because they can’t meet a suitable wife. And “suitable wife” means “chaste devout Christian female” (funny that the word “chaste “ MUST be added as a modifier to “devout Christian female”. It should go without saying.)

    I think more and more men should start making no bones about this and talking publicly about their rejection of sluts.

    “Why don’t you want to date me?”

    “Because you’re a slut.”

    “But I’m not like that anymore!”

    “But you WERE like that. How can I trust you’ll really love and respect ME, when you’ve loved and respected so many before me?”

    A lot of women are simply floored when they find out that guys are concerned about their Ns. A lot of girls just don’t get that a high N disqualifies them from marriage to high status men with options.

    Maybe they’ll start getting it when a higher percentage of men start foregoing marriage altogether. We’re not seeing it yet, because a lot of these late 20s-early 30s high N women are still getting married, albeit to a much lower caliber of men they could have married had they remained chaste.

  21. If you don’t want children, marriage is probably pretty much pointless. Very few women who are devout enough to maintain their chastity will be looking for a husband with whom to enter into a sterile marriage, and that is entirely reasonable on their part.

  22. Actually, I know more than a few men who don’t like children and don’t want children, but do like sex. Whether to have children and how many is a serious concern for a couple looking to get married.

  23. That should be one of the first things that comes up in a courtship, the subject of children. Unless they agree, a couple shouldn’t marry.

  24. Gotta disagree about Job Fuzzie. While I may not have found a wife, and may never find one and have children, the rest of my life is a cakewalk compared to what Job endured. Honestly, considering the general depravity of human nature, and the suffering which has been a constant part of human life (since The Fall/we evolved as humans), I have it pretty easy. Which is why I hesitated about posting this, because God has been Good to me, even though this one part of my life seems unfulfilled.

  25. The attraction is important. That doesn’t jibe with the Blue Pill world, but St. Paul was right in emphasizing that those who marry should burn with passion towards one another. Eros is a glue that can hold a marriage together long enough for true Agape to develop.

    If I should run across a virtuous woman whom I don’t consider a potential marriage partner (either because of a lack of attraction or perhaps religious/personality differences), I will try and send her towards any virtuous man that I know who might find her to be wife material. Some men differ in what they find attractive, and of course personality/religious convictions differ as well. I think its important for those of us who try and life a righteous life to help out others as well when it comes to marriage and courtship.

  26. I’m going to address this more in my response post, but my faith hasn’t been weakened by these realizations. If anything, it is stronger. I pray every night for Him to bless me with a wife, but I also pray for Him to bless me with what I truly need, and not merely want.

  27. True. I am trying to find where those clusters are, only time will tell if I succeed.

  28. Not saying it isn’t unreasonable, but I also know as soon as one has children the dynamics of marriage changes and the lives of the married couple will completely revolve around raising the kids. It’s not unreasonable on my part to ask for a “honeymoon” period where the marriage can just be about her and me for a time, especially given women’s proclivity to forget they have a husband once the children are born.

  29. Agreed. If a woman is chaste and devout, then I would have to think she would view children as a blessing from God and would want a lot of them. Which is not a problem for me, I love children.

  30. If she does cheat, it is over. From all I have learned about the Red Pill, a woman only cheats when a relationship is already over, and there is no salvaging it.

  31. I think my greatest concern here is not that I don’t want to have kids, but that the wife ended up wanting kids more than she wanted me.

  32. Sis

    some guy came onto my blog and basically said you were right, so I’m interested. You have some support already for these ideas that I’m unaware of.

    I’m glad your faith is being strengthened, I know mine has.

  33. Deep Strength

    Yep I agree on the attraction factor.

    By any chance do you live in the MD/DC/VA area and like asians? She is still going to be looking for a husband I believe.

  34. deti

    WIfe cheating is nearly always fatal to a marriage.

    If my wife ever cheats on me or I discover she ever has cheated, it will simply be game over.

  35. I don’t live in that area. As for ethnic preferences, I have found that good looking women are to be found in pretty much every ethnic group that I have encountered.

  36. But Frank, that isn’t what you said at all. What you said was this:

    Maybe it’s because I’m ambivalent about having kids, partly because I want the marriage to be about me and the wife before it becomes about the kids… So while my desire for a wife is strong, my desire for a family, ehhh, not so much… I really don’t want to see myself in a situation where I get married and the very first thing the wife wants to do is have kids. It’s like oy, can’t I get a chance to enjoy the marriage for 5 minutes?

    A husband and a wife are a family. If you don’t want a family, then you don’t want a wife. I understand the concern that a woman might marry you just so she can have kids; we know this happens. Those women are to be avoided at all costs! But that isn’t the kind of women we were talking about here. We’re talking about a young, chaste Christian woman.

    Also, in your comment you clearly oppose having to do any work at all. You don’t want to be part of a one-flesh union in which both partners are continually learning how to die to self. You want to INCREASE your self by using your marriage to do so.

    You don’t want to sanctify your wife nor do you want her to do so for you. You don’t want to mirror Christ to a woman. You don’t want to have children. In what way exactly do you want a Christian marriage? And you criticize and sigh over those of us who have actually been doing the hard work of marriage, growing in personal sanctification, learning to be repentant and humble when we want to be arrogant and self-centered, as if it were a bad thing.

    What you appear to want is no different than what PUAs want; someone to have sex with and maybe a travel buddy. Unlike the PUAs, you aren’t even willing to do the most basic things to attract a mate, though. Think about the suggestions you’ve been given, Frank. Go to the gym – you whined and said no. Try getting an outdoorsy hobby or doing volunteer work where you might meet women – nope to that, too. And on and on.

    You want a hot girl (but no ugly “butterface” girls, as you called them) to fall into your lap with no effort on your part and then agree to slap a Jesus fish on your essentially hedonistic “arrangement” and call it a marriage. You want a sterile marriage that is all about you having fun.

    You don’t understand the first thing about Christian marriage.

  37. “Broaden your circle of acquaintances… and, sorry, consider being something other than Catholic. Try some “nondenominational” type Baptist churches.”

    I am broadening my circle of acquaintances, that is something which is critical for a man in my position. But from everything I can determine, other Christian sects/denominations are no better than Catholicism when it comes to finding virtuous women. With the exception of a few very niche sects that live quite apart from the rest of society, and whom I am trying to familiarize myself with.

  38. That is an interesting thought LGR, and it does find some support in Matthew 19. But then again, Jesus did come to fulfill the Law, and I would think that marriage, being among the first acts of God with regards to Man, would be included.

  39. And “suitable wife” means “chaste devout Christian female” (funny that the word “chaste “ MUST be added as a modifier to “devout Christian female”. It should go without saying.)

    Well, it should be expected that there will always be some unmarried Christian women who would be unchaste. A few who are born to the faith will stray, and there are always those who convert to the faith after having lived sinful lives. The problem is that this was, and should be, the exception, but now it is the rule. In the past a woman who “strayed” was shamed and was effectively a social outcast. The Herd turned their backs on her. Now it is the woman who doesn’t stray who is the exception, the outcast.

    And if a woman were to actually ask me flat out why I wasn’t dating/courting her, you better believe the answer would be blunt. Probably something along the lines of:

    “I’m sorry, but I’m not interested in dating you, because my goal is to get married and not simply date.”

    “But why not marry me?”

    “No Rings for Sluts.” (and walk away)

    The ever progressing rate of first marriage, and the reduction in the number of marriages taking place, makes me think that we are starting to see the wave of a “marriage strike” take shape. It is still nascent, but will be undeniable before too long.

  40. Sunshinemary,

    Dude. You sound just like a single mom here.

    You’ve also misread and made a lot of false assumptions. Like so:

    Think about the suggestions you’ve been given, Frank. Go to the gym – you whined and said no.

    Um, I am going to the gym. Where did I say I wasn’t? I’ve expressed before that I want to focus on how to be a good husband. That’s part of why I’m going to the gym. I’m already making some of the sacrifices here to adjust my life accordingly even though I haven’t met anyone. But yeah, it’s all about me.

    I’ve also talked about the downsides of volunteer work for the wrong reasons, and I do plan to get involved but in areas I have an interest in, that way I’m doing it not to score babes but because it’s the right thing to do. I’m sorry if that offends you.

    Note I say I want marriage to be about me AND THE WIFE (the part you didn’t bold) before it becomes about kids. Where did I say I only want it to be about me? Suddenly it’s God forbid I have a wife whose desire is for her husband?

    I want to be assured that I’m the second most important thing in her life. This is suddenly hedonism now? I want a chance to rejoice with the wife my youth before we have kids. This is suddenly PUA with a Christian label? Please.

    Get over your PMS rant here and then come talk to me when you’re ready not to twist my words out of context.

  41. I am responding to exactly what you wrote in your first comment, which you are now entirely reframing.

    You wrote:

    I’m ambivalent about having kids

    So while my desire for a wife is strong, my desire for a family, ehhh, not so much.

    With all the fathers you saw in church, consider how many of them might have wanted to kill just to be in your shoes?

    But now you say:

    I want a chance to rejoice with the wife my youth before we have kids.

    It’s easy for you to call people names when they point out this stuff to you. That’s your typical form of arguing back – call the person names, but don’t address the content of what they said. So you aren’t really going to address what I’ve said; you’re just going to say that I sound like a single mother with PMS.

    II am going to the gym. Where did I say I wasn’t?

    There was no false assumption: when I first suggested that to you via email, your response was that you didn’t want to. Since you are, then I stand corrected.

  42. My take is around 10% of women in the US are marriageable. I married a 29 year old virgin when I was 34 myself, and 7 years later we now have three small children. Getting a wife 5 years younger than you isn’t much of a stretch at all honestly. As to where to find a virgin Christian wife who isn’t a Churchian, here are some suggestions:
    Look in relatively unchurched sections of the country, e.g. the Pacific Northwest. In such areas where church attendance isn’t socially mandatory you’re more likely to find a girl who really believes.
    Look for a girl who tithes. This is your best indication of where her heart really is from your perspective. Related to this, you’re also looking for a girl who can live within her means.
    Look for a girl with an intact family. Parents still married where the mother treats the father respectfully. You want to meet her parents and her minister fairly early, before your emotions become too compromised.
    If this is what you’re looking for, Eharmony is actually pretty good. It’s how I met my wife originally and in a lot of areas, you’ll be given a lot more potential matches than most women will. Of all the matches their system set me up with (I interviewed a dozen or so in person), none of them would have required more than a couple of drinks to convince me that—yeah, that could work.

  43. So you aren’t really going to address what I’ve said; you’re just going to say that I sound like a single mother with PMS.

    Because you do. It’s the same tone from single moms, “How DARE I have needs and desires of my own!!!” Get off it.

    But now you say…

    Right. Where did I say I have NO DESIRE to have kids? It’s simply not as strong as the desire to have a wife. I’m sorry but that’s just how it is. EXCUSE ME if this wrinkles your nose. *thumbs down*

    I’m not offering a sterile marriage either, again, so again stop putting words in my mouth. I say the desire isn’t strong because it just isn’t, it doesn’t mean there’s NO desire at all.

    There was no false assumption: when I first suggested that to you via email, your response was that you didn’t want to.

    Which I said in JEST, in an overly embellishing fashion. (WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!)

    And then I signed up for a gym the next day (or the same week.)

    So you’re either being disingenuous by NOW treating as serious what was meant in jest, or you took it the wrong way this whole time. I suspect it’s the former.

    See this attitude of yours? Not really helping assuage the fears that marriage will bring with it nothing but strife, grief and friction, even when the wife is a devout Christian.

  44. deti

    Donal:

    “The ever progressing rate of first marriage, and the reduction in the number of marriages taking place, makes me think that we are starting to see the wave of a “marriage strike” take shape. It is still nascent, but will be undeniable before too long.”

    Certainly, age at first marriage continues to creep upwards. We might – MIGHT – be seeing a marriage strike, but it will probably take a long time to get there or before its effects are felt. I do think this is only going to get worse, though – the questions are how bad will it get and how long will it take to get there. I think it will take us a long time to get there because late 20s-early 30s women are still finding men for marriage.

    But almost none of those women are chaste. And they are having to settle downward on the SMV scale, well below men they fornicated with. And they don’t like it, not one bit. Their hamsters can spin it as attraction, but it’s not – it’s desperation and “needababyneedamanneedababyneedaman NOW NOW NOW NOW!”

  45. Because you do. It’s the same tone from single moms, “How DARE I have needs and desires of my own!!!” Get off it.

    Where did I say that you couldn’t have needs or desires of your own? You’ve defeated a comment that I didn’t make.

    Having needs of desires of one’s own is quite different that literally being unable to suss the entire point of Christian marriage.

    EXCUSE ME if this wrinkles your nose.

    Why would that wrinkle my nose? I don’t care if you have children or not. I also don’t care if you marry or not. You are free to pile on as many demands and conditions as you want if and when you do marry. However, what you described in your original comment was not Christian marriage and you still aren’t indicating any comprehension of what that means. Ballista74 at the Society of Phineas has a series on Christian marriage that is really useful.

  46. Oh, and I don’t have PMS. That’s next week. 🙂

    Anyway, I’ll email you, Frank, and you can reply if you feel like it. I’ve always liked you and don’t want to offend you publicly. I might do it privately though.

  47. That’s fine, I’m not looking to sidetrack Donal’s thread here with a flame war either. 😛

  48. I really, really think men should refuse to marry non-virgins. Women are not total idiots. If they realize that no one will marry unchaste women, they’ll close their legs pretty quick.

    It is shocking to realize that even the most devout Christian women disagree with me. I saw a comment at TC the other day in which men who who want to marry virgins were referred to as “Hymen Cult-inaters”. As if the Bible didn’t repeatedly state that women are to be virgins until marriage.

  49. I do think my tone was too strident in my second comment to you, though, so I’ll publicly apologize for that.

    Anyway, email on the way…

  50. I apologize for the PMS barb/snarky tone too. But remind me to avoid contact with you for the better part of next week.

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