Frame Control

An interesting debate arose over at SunshineMary’s site (a not uncommon occurrence), concerning Christian dating and courtship. I expressed my view that two principal questions were behind the debate:

How does a man maintain sexual attraction with a woman without sexually escalating?


How does a chaste man seeking a chaste woman express that he is chaste without lowering his attractiveness in the eyes of the woman[?]

Several very good answers were supplied by fellow commentators. Cail Corishev chimed in:

The bottom line is that he has to bump up his alpha in other areas to compensate for the fact that he’s not dominating her sexually. Fortunately, a guy doesn’t have to be 100% alpha in all areas to be attractive. Height and fitness are alpha qualities, but a short, fat guy can attract women if he compensates in other areas, such as being the life of the party or having dominant body language.

as did Keoni Galt:

A man determined to remain chaste until marriage should escalate to the point where he has determined he is morally bound by his belief and faith and go no further. (For most, that would be kissing, hugging, holding hands…).

If stopping at 2nd or 3rd base makes her lose attraction and interest in him (which was vR’s regular complaints about all the EAP’s he was dating), then she has proven herself unworthy of his commitment.

and a few others as well.

Overall, these are excellent pieces of advice, and the two quoted comments in particular are important reminders about major Red Pill truths. Keoni’s full comment references that excellent advice of having an abundance mentality, that is, never succumbing to the belief that there is only one woman out there for you. It is simply a good approach to take in life in general, like many other Red Pill concepts.

Cail’s comment comes very close to my own thoughts on the subject. I have covered the subject of male attractiveness before, and key amongst the many attributes is that of Power. In general manosphere parlance this is often referred to as Frame. A dominant masculine frame is essential to any successful interaction with women, no matter whether you are aiming for a ONS or hoping to court a young lady in pursuit of marriage.

“How does a man maintain sexual attraction with a woman without sexually escalating?”

My question, as Keoni pointed out, was poorly worded. Rather than asking how to maintain sexual attraction without sexually escalating, it should have asked how a man can maintain attraction without escalating to sex itself. I think the answer is measured escalation, done in such a way as to always leaving the woman wanting more, but never putting yourself in a position where the woman clearly expects sex and it seems like you are backing down. Proper frame is key here; you must always appear in control. That sense of cool, composed confidence is supremely masculine, and is very similar to the detached aloofness that Roissy advocates. As long as you have that going for you, you should be able to control the interaction such that it never seems like you are afraid of sex. If the woman herself broaches the subject, a mysterious air is what I would advocate. Don’t make your intentions clear if you can help it. However, if the woman tries to place you on the spot, as a form of fitness test, it is possible to still escape gracefully. When she asks, say “No”, but with a mischievous smile that makes it seem as though you are hiding something. Then, when she asks why you aren’t interested in having sex with her, you respond like this: Look around suspiciously, then if possible slowly circle around her, maintaining eye contact for as long as possible, and move in close and whisper in her ear… “The best part of being a Man is never having to explain yourself.” Then quickly disengage. This will pique her curiosity and provide that emotional thrill-ride which women adore. If that doesn’t satisfy her, then Keoni’s advice to NEXT her is solid.

How does a chaste man seeking a chaste woman express that he is chaste without lowering his attractiveness in the eyes of the woman[?]

An easier question to answer, I think. While you shouldn’t lie, it isn’t necessarily something you should volunteer about yourself until after you have established yourself in her eyes. Once again, maintaining a mysterious air is probably the best solution. If she presses, or the subject comes up, then the key is to make it about your worth as a man. Make it clear that you as a man are discriminating, and that only a woman who is worthy can earn the right to experience that part of your masculinity. Its all about value: you must express your high value as much as possible, so that the woman’s natural hypergamous instincts will treat your supposed admission not as a sign of masculine weakness, but as a marker of high status.


Filed under Alpha, LAMPS, Red Pill

7 responses to “Frame Control

  1. After the discussion at Dalrock’s on how marriage should at least take primacy over romantic love, I am considering the following (single 20’s Christian dude):

    1. Begin a campaign of mass simultaneous courtship within my church. The main purpose of “dates” is, rather than signaling my beta provider status or supplicating, to efficiently interview women for their position on…well, basically trad-Christian redpill thought, specifically submission, divorce, and “depriv[ing] one another,” as well as dalrock’s list. Frame:I’m gonna marry one of you, and this is how it’s gonna be.

    2. The above is horribly unromantic and I predict a lot of failure across the board. In the past, I’d be taking out one girl on dates, would have a lot invested, and this would hurt a lot. But in this case I’m much more invested in the process than any particular girl.

    3. As I stopped seeing anyone who seemed hopeless by the above rubric, and continue taking out new (and probably younger) girls for the same process, I imagine a bit of shock (“OMG he’s serious! He’s really gonna marry her? I’m way hotter!”) and reassessment taking place among the first wave.

    4. Basically the idea is to blatantly take on the frame of the entire female membership of the church. You “want to be friends first?” Not gonna happen. You think one date entitles you to a degree of exclusivity? No: your behavior and answers determine my level of investment, which will not be exclusive until I’m married.

    I’d be interested in your thoughts on this.

  2. That is is fairly close to the strategy that I have been contemplating. I had a few ideas in addition to what you mentioned:

    1- Once you have exhausted your immediate church, try the nearby churches as well. Increase the pool of applications. Make it clear that it isn’t desperation which is driving you, but a desire to find a women worthy of being your wife.

    2- Enlist mothers to your cause. While I am sure that there are plenty of feminist mothers in your Church who want their daughter to earn all of her merit-badges, there are bound to be some who want to see their daughters marry well. More than a few of them won’t mind playing matchmaker and help direct you at their daughters, or direct their daughters at you. This would apply to grandmothers as well. Also, some of the older women in church might not have marriageable daughters, but might be able to point you towards friends or other family who do have them. The process can also help screen too, if you explain your basic criteria for a potential wife. I have 5 points that I intend to use: 1)Chaste, 2) Devout, 3) at least somewhat pleasing to the eye, 4) tries to live a healthy life and 5) does her best to maintain a sweet and feminine personality.

  3. earl

    I have a firm stance about keeping sex in marriage. But even though it is a serious stance and I have my reasons…keeping a playful and vague attitude about it is much better than bringing the logical hammer down upon her if the subject comes up.

    In fact the only time I could possibly think you should be serious with a woman is if she needs to go to the Emergency Room.

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  6. tz

    I went to my local Harley dealer to get my Night Train out of storage (I’ve been out of town on business, and we’ve had hail, sleet, snow, and torrential rains anyway). There was a T-Shirt with the caption “Attitude Included”. I was tempted but didn’t buy it.

    Roissy talks about microalphatudes. Technically I’m a Sigma (Vox Day’s scale), but there is no reason you can’t have all the alpha behaviors and remain chaste (though you may be chased).

    @Earl In fact the only time I could possibly think you should be serious with a woman is if she needs to go to the Emergency Room. This does NOT mean she will acquire a serious attitude toward the conversation with you. Sometimes the best policy is to treat it as if they are speaking in Urdu (assuming you do NOT understand Urdu).

    And as a Catholic, “attraction” is somewhere near the bottom. It is transient in the best of circumstances. “In sickness and in health”? What if I or she becomes unattractive? Does she want to have children, and will she love me (agape first, hopefully philea, maybe eros)? Marriage just so I can hook up?

    Put differently, either the woman will value chastity/virginity in the man or not. If she does not there is no point in the pursuit. If she does, then she is more valuable than rubies. Trying to play games around this point will only backfire.

  7. I’ve found that it can be used as an effective tease. “You seem cool, but I’m not putting out for you.” “How many times do I have to tell you, I’m not that easy.” “You think you’re gonna get THIS for free?”

    You get her to want it, but then refrain from giving it. It’s the same thing women have done to us for centuries. It worked for them; it works for us.

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